Became angry when co-worker relayed conversation with ex

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Today, I felt that physiological inflammation type thing.  Adrenaline flowing.  Body tense.  Hands trembling.  Pissed off for several hours.

My co-worker said he talked with my ex (first he called her my "girlfriend", then he quickly corrected himself and said "ex" last week and she asked how I was doing.  Before he could say anymore, I lost my cool and said something like "How the f--k did that bi-ch have the nerve to ask how I'm doing?  She didn't give a sh-t when we broke up how I was doing.  She didn't bother to even show her face!"  It made me angry to the highest degree that she would even ask that!

He kind of nodded and said he went on to tell her the area where I was working and that I'm doing a great job and she should stop by and see me.

Then I told him if she stopped by to see me I would probably punch her in the face on sight.  He kind of chuckled and said sorry for delivering the good news with the bad news.  I'm not sure what he meant by that.  Good news?

I said "At least tell me something like 'she looked gross'".  He just smirked and said "see you later."

Now that I'm home, not distracted by work, I am angry about it all again, triggered like the breakup was yesterday. 

Was she being fake?  Was she just making conversation?  Or did she really have the motherf--king audacity to ask how I am doing when:  she didn't care how I was doing like the last 6 months we were together, or when she'd just quit contacting me without notice, or when she'd hold hands with my friends, or when she decided she was in love with her ex every 8 months or so?  So she's either full of sh-t and doesn't really care how I'm doing or it was just some BPD-esque nonsense.

Nevertheless I'm angry.   And it didn't help that my co-worker said, by omission, that she looked amazing.

A year later... . still getting triggered.

I guess if she really truly cared, she'd ask me directly.  In fact, that's a pretty watered down, cowardly way of asking how I'm doing when we were in a relationship and she just bailed.  So, I guess she didn't really want to know how I'm doing.

Yeah, I know, the anger is really just a mask for sadness or whatever.  I still miss her. 

[struggli]

Today, I felt that physiological inflammation type thing.  Adrenaline flowing.  Body tense.  Hands trembling.  Pissed off for several hours.

My co-worker said he talked with my ex (first he called her my "girlfriend", then he quickly corrected himself and said "ex" last week and she asked how I was doing.  Before he could say anymore, I lost my cool and said something like "How the f--k did that bi-ch have the nerve to ask how I'm doing?  She didn't give a sh-t when we broke up how I was doing.  She didn't bother to even show her face!"  It made me angry to the highest degree that she would even ask that!

He kind of nodded and said he went on to tell her the area where I was working and that I'm doing a great job and she should stop by and see me.

Then I told him if she stopped by to see me I would probably punch her in the face on sight.  He kind of chuckled and said sorry for delivering the good news with the bad news.  I'm not sure what he meant by that.  Good news?

I said "At least tell me something like 'she looked gross'".  He just smirked and said "see you later."

Now that I'm home, not distracted by work, I am angry about it all again, triggered like the breakup was yesterday. 

Was she being fake?  Was she just making conversation?  Or did she really have the motherf--king audacity to ask how I am doing when:  she didn't care how I was doing like the last 6 months we were together, or when she'd just quit contacting me without notice, or when she'd hold hands with my friends, or when she decided she was in love with her ex every 8 months or so?  So she's either full of sh-t and doesn't really care how I'm doing or it was just some BPD-esque nonsense.

Nevertheless I'm angry.   And it didn't help that my co-worker said, by omission, that she looked amazing.

A year later... . still getting triggered.

I guess if she really truly cared, she'd ask me directly.  In fact, that's a pretty watered down, cowardly way of asking how I'm doing when we were in a relationship and she just bailed.  So, I guess she didn't really want to know how I'm doing.

Yeah, I know, the anger is really just a mask for sadness or whatever.  I still miss her. 

[Suzn]

hey struggli 

Sorry this happened man. You think this may have felt like an intrusion into your space maybe?

She didn't give a sh-t when we broke up how I was doing.  She didn't bother to even show her face!"

I'm sorry, I know this hurt. Do you think this has anything to do with the excess anger today?

[struggli]

hey struggli 

Sorry this happened man. You think this may have felt like an intrusion into your space maybe?

She didn't give a sh-t when we broke up how I was doing.  She didn't bother to even show her face!"

I'm sorry, I know this hurt. Do you think this has anything to do with the excess anger today?

Yeah, I was simply angry for being reminded of her too.  And I still wish she'd try, I mean really try, to re-engage.  But I guess that's just me still fantasizing that she could sustain the good times we once had.  Still much denial on my part perhaps.  I can admit to the denial, but not stop doing it for some reason.

[Suzn]

Yeah, I was simply angry for being reminded of her too. 

So what is really going on here? Stop whatever you're doing, sit with this for a bit and ask yourself "what is really going on with me, what is just under the surface?"

[struggli]

Yeah, I was simply angry for being reminded of her too. 

So what is really going on here? Stop whatever you're doing, sit with this for a bit and ask yourself "what is really going on with me, what is just under the surface?"

It disrupted the peace I was experiencing.

I am angry that she doesn't do more to find out how I am doing/I am disappointed that the person I love is only concerned about me as far as casual conversation.

It was a reminder of loss.

It reminded me that I was in a relationship (that, for quite some time, I felt better about than any other relationship I'd ever been in) and now I am lonely/sexless/etc.

I feel like I wasn't good enough for ex/am not good enough for someone new

I feel like I am viewed as a failure by my co-workers since ex and I were a "famous" couple amongst a small group of people.  She has gone on to be cheery (as far as I can tell) while I have been miserable over the loss.

I am reminded of statements like "I would never break up with you" and "We will work out any and all problems we have because we know how to talk to each other" and the complete disjoint between those statements and her actual behavior makes me angry.

[VeryFree]

A lot of things happen to us when our r/s breaks down.

It's very tough and I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling bad.

I think anger has a purpose: it helps us to overcome the bad things that happened to us. It frees our emotions.

Let it happen, but don't let it overrule your common sense. Feel the anger, feel the pain, work on a better future. You can do it!

[struggli]

Last night I had a dream in which I was watching parts of the relationship on a video and explaining to people how great it was.  In the video she had her arms wrapped around me and was telling me how much she loved me and kissing me, etc.  I was trying to explain to people I didn't understand what happened, what went wrong.  

And I guess that's reality for me too.  While I don't obsess about solving the riddle 24/7 like I first did when we broke up, I still try to deconstruct/reverse engineer what happened.  I either want to convince myself that she was unstable/crazy or that I messed it all up.  Those are the only two options I see for something that went from amazing to derailment.  And I flip flop between being mad at her for her behavior, whether or not it is BPD-induced, or "flogging" myself for not taking the correct course of action to keep the relationship on track.

Yeah, tell me "it takes two to tango" and I have B&W thinking.  If I compare my behavior in this relationship to any other one I ever had, I was more mature, more open, determined to sort out issues rather than ignore them, more available, more present, more warm, more attentive, etc.  Yet, failure.

[Suzn]

I am angry that she doesn't do more to find out how I am doing/I am disappointed that the person I love is only concerned about me as far as casual conversation.

It was a reminder of loss.

I am reminded of statements like "I would never break up with you" and "We will work out any and all problems we have because we know how to talk to each other" and the complete disjoint between those statements and her actual behavior makes me angry.

Anger is a secondary emotion. That means another emotion is triggered and instead of allowing ourselves to experience the first emotion we go straight to anger, anger is "easier", we blow up and let off steam and feel better temporarily leaving the underlying emotion just under the surface. Emotions don't have a expiration date if we never allow ourselves to experience them struggli, they remain until we allow ourselves to "feel" them all the way through. Sit with yourself any time you feel anger and ask yourself "what is really going on, do I feel slighted, did that hurt my feelings, etc... . ?" Identifying the underlying emotion can help you, once identified you can respond to it appropriately.

I feel like I wasn't good enough for ex/am not good enough for someone new

When have you feel like this in your past? This sounds like a core wound.

I feel like I am viewed as a failure by my co-workers since ex and I were a "famous" couple amongst a small group of people.  She has gone on to be cheery (as far as I can tell) while I have been miserable over the loss.

This sounds like shame, being embarrassed that you aren't moving on. Being honest with whomever shows vulnerability, it brings people closer however it's hard to allow ourselves to be vulnerable when we feel that we "should" be further along. You are uniquely you struggli, what if these people think something entirely different? She is good at hiding emotion because she likely has BPD and has been avoiding her emotions forever, you on the other hand are struggling to hide your emotions because you feel them.

I either want to convince myself that she was unstable/crazy or that I messed it all up.  Those are the only two options I see for something that went from amazing to derailment.

Why can't a little of both be a fair assessment? Most of us knew nothing of BPD and the behaviors before we landed here and not to mention knew little of ourselves. Why is it that you would expect yourself to have been able to fix this r/s by yourself? The members on the Staying board learn skills necessary to communicate with a pwBPD along with working with a T to become more aware of their own behaviors. You are being very hard on yourself by chalking this up to a complete failure on your part, cut yourself some slack.   

[struggli]

The ultimate reasons why I broke up with her which I still doubt myself for were:

1.  Her getting phone calls and texts from guys (not setting a boundary to keep them away)

2.  Her being too touchy with guys (holding hands, for one)

3.  The discrepancies between wanting to see me all the time vs needing space vs ceasing contact for days on end.  My sense of security in the relationship was always being jarred.

4.  Late in the relationship, her admittance of having sex with ten different guys while she was with her ex and my belief that, despite her saying she was ashamed of it and wanted to change, that she was still like that.  It suddenly made the need for space, the guys calling, etc, seem like it was all related to cheating behavior.  Even if she wasn't cheating physically, the needing space, the sleeping with her phone under her pillow, made me feel like something was awry.

But I have experienced things like this with other women who have: gone out on dates with me, slept in bed with me, kissed me, told me they wanted to f--k me, given me oral sex, let me put my arm around their waists at concerts, and so on.   All later revealed that they had a boyfriend.

So, either (a) I attract women who lean toward unfaithfulness (b) many women are like this, at least from a certain generation (my current belief) (c) I am more irresistible/seductive than I think I am.

Maybe I should have been making more of a fit about it all with the ex, but I thought I made it pretty clear and sternly so that I didn't like any of the above behavior (the points 1-4).  Should I have been shoving guys away when they were flirting with the ex?  Should I have been answering the phone and telling them to f--- off?  Should there have been fist fights?  I guess I just thought a good woman would show respect and not do those things and would set her own boundaries because she wanted me to be happy, not that I needed to demonstrate ape-like dominance to show everyone what a tough guy I am.

So, I ended the relationship with some doubt about my reasoning, but still fully in love with her.  In a way, I'd hoped that the loss of me would make her straighten up, but it seemed she didn't even care, which was more shattering to me.

If I could feel/know that ending the relationship was 100% right, I'd be at peace.  But the doubts keep my hanging in limbo.

If many women are like this, maybe I should have just accepted it, tried to deal with it, worked it out, etc.

[seeking balance]

Suzn is right on target with you questioning your core wounds, so I don't want to detract from that process.

I wanted to add, however, this guy at work really did cross a boundary and was a jerk about it.  When we are barely keeping it together and someone crosses a boundary we have set to keep our balance, I know my anger really crossed over more than I knew was rational.

Perhaps, literally practice this out loud for next time - "while I appreciate you have a good intention, I am not engaging in conversation about (X name here).  It hurts and angers me and I would appreciate you respecting this."

End of story.

Sometimes we need to practice this stuff outloud so when it happen, our emotional mind won't take over.  This is also a way of our "adult" self protecting our "child" self.

Now, back to Suzn's excellent work here.

[struggli]

Yes, except once he started talking my curiosity couldn't resist hearing him out, despite the discomfort.

Also, I still don't get the whole BPD breakup thing.  So, with some pwBPD, the relationship ends with them walking away silently/nonchalantly/coldly discarding their lover on a whim and, with others, they show up banging a hole in your door with a sledge hammer or jumping through your window or whatever trying desperately to just make any kind of contact?  That sounds like two very different things.  There are the ones who just cut you off completely once the relationship ends and the ones who call you from different phone numbers and stalk you and show up at your job.  Why a discrepancy of opposite behaviors?  How can both be the same disorder?

It's the doubts, the doubts keep me stuck.  No certainty.

[struggli]

I am angry that she doesn't do more to find out how I am doing/I am disappointed that the person I love is only concerned about me as far as casual conversation.

It was a reminder of loss.

I am reminded of statements like "I would never break up with you" and "We will work out any and all problems we have because we know how to talk to each other" and the complete disjoint between those statements and her actual behavior makes me angry.

Anger is a secondary emotion. That means another emotion is triggered and instead of allowing ourselves to experience the first emotion we go straight to anger, anger is "easier", we blow up and let off steam and feel better temporarily leaving the underlying emotion just under the surface. Emotions don't have a expiration date if we never allow ourselves to experience them struggli, they remain until we allow ourselves to "feel" them all the way through. Sit with yourself any time you feel anger and ask yourself "what is really going on, do I feel slighted, did that hurt my feelings, etc... . ?" Identifying the underlying emotion can help you, once identified you can respond to it appropriately.

I feel like I wasn't good enough for ex/am not good enough for someone new

When have you feel like this in your past? This sounds like a core wound.

I feel like I am viewed as a failure by my co-workers since ex and I were a "famous" couple amongst a small group of people.  She has gone on to be cheery (as far as I can tell) while I have been miserable over the loss.

This sounds like shame, being embarrassed that you aren't moving on. Being honest with whomever shows vulnerability, it brings people closer however it's hard to allow ourselves to be vulnerable when we feel that we "should" be further along. You are uniquely you struggli, what if these people think something entirely different? She is good at hiding emotion because she likely has BPD and has been avoiding her emotions forever, you on the other hand are struggling to hide your emotions because you feel them.

I either want to convince myself that she was unstable/crazy or that I messed it all up.  Those are the only two options I see for something that went from amazing to derailment.

Why can't a little of both be a fair assessment? Most of us knew nothing of BPD and the behaviors before we landed here and not to mention knew little of ourselves. Why is it that you would expect yourself to have been able to fix this r/s by yourself? The members on the Staying board learn skills necessary to communicate with a pwBPD along with working with a T to become more aware of their own behaviors. You are being very hard on yourself by chalking this up to a complete failure on your part, cut yourself some slack.   

I felt like superman.  I had finally met the women I'd dream for all my life.  And then someone just said "well, I'm taking your super powers away now" without an explanation.  That's a hard thing to get over.   When you feel like you had everything you wanted and then, poof, gone.

[seeking balance]

Yes, except once he started talking my curiosity couldn't resist hearing him out, despite the discomfort.

So, you are the one who let your boundaries be crossed, is that what you are saying?

Is that what made you so angry perhaps?

[struggli]

Also, I don't think the guy at work had any ill will when he told me that.  I think his point was that he was trying to play me up to her to make it seem like my life was going great and I was getting along fine, so as to spark her interest in me.  I think he thought he was doing a matchmaker type favor by making me seem like I'm confident and successful, etc.  He doesn't know the whole story, so he probably thinks it's just two young lovers who got into a fight and should make up and get back together.  I think he thought he was helping.

[struggli]

Yes, except once he started talking my curiosity couldn't resist hearing him out, despite the discomfort.

So, you are the one who let your boundaries be crossed, is that what you are saying?

Is that what made you so angry perhaps?

I think I was hoping he would say something that make me feel good. 

And, probably, the whole point of this post is that I am still in love with her.

[seeking balance]

Also, I don't think the guy at work had any ill will when he told me that.  I think his point was that he was trying to play me up to her to make it seem like my life was going great and I was getting along fine, so as to spark her interest in me.  I think he thought he was doing a matchmaker type favor by making me seem like I'm confident and successful, etc.  He doesn't know the whole story, so he probably thinks it's just two young lovers who got into a fight and should make up and get back together.  I think he thought he was helping.

ummm... . what is the relevance of guessing his motives?

Look back in the mirror as suzn has you doing.  I was simply trying to show you that you are responsible for your own boundaries and your own triggers.  Again, try practicing out loud so you know how to implement them when the situation arises.  Or don't - up to you how to live your life - simply a suggestion since you posted about you anger struggles.

[seeking balance]

And, probably, the whole point of this post is that I am still in love with her.

ok - so... . you might be in love with her - that doesn't change anything about your actual behavior does it?

Looking over your post - I see 2 key things you might want to explore:

1 - she made you feel like superman

2 - you were hoping he might say something to make you feel good

Do you think looking outside yourself to feel worthy seems like a way to establish a stable sense of self in you?

[struggli]

And, probably, the whole point of this post is that I am still in love with her.

ok - so... . you might be in love with her - that doesn't change anything about your actual behavior does it?

Looking over your post - I see 2 key things you might want to explore:

1 - she made you feel like superman

2 - you were hoping he might say something to make you feel good

Do you think looking outside yourself to feel worthy seems like a way to establish a stable sense of self in you?

No, but don't we all use external validation to navigate the world?  To know where we stand?

Was I wrong the break up with the ex?  Or do I have to answer that myself? 

So, I should just be self-absorbed, delusional about my strengths/weaknesses,  and without a partner in order to be whole?

[Suzn]

1.  Her getting phone calls and texts from guys (not setting a boundary to keep them away)

2.  Her being too touchy with guys (holding hands, for one)

3.  The discrepancies between wanting to see me all the time vs needing space vs ceasing contact for days on end.  My sense of security in the relationship was always being jarred.

So, these examples represent her boundaries. You can't "adjust" someone else's boundaries. Your boundaries are not rules for her to live by, they are rules, based on your values, for you to live by. I think it would be fair to say these behaviors would make anyone feel uncomfortable. What can you do in the future when you notice your sense of security being triggered?  

4.  Late in the relationship, her admittance of having sex with ten different guys while she was with her ex and my belief that, despite her saying she was ashamed of it and wanted to change, that she was still like that.  It suddenly made the need for space, the guys calling, etc, seem like it was all related to cheating behavior.  Even if she wasn't cheating physically, the needing space, the sleeping with her phone under her pillow, made me feel like something was awry.

What, from your past, did her admission trigger in you? This is important to ask yourself. That being said, one of the things I struggled to let go of when I was trying to make sense of my own breakup was the thought that somehow "I" was different than everyone else my ex told me about, anyone she was either involved with or had been. My ex told me and showed me who she was. I turned a blind eye. I later had to come to terms with why I stayed.  

But I have experienced things like this with other women... .  All later revealed that they had a boyfriend.

Is it fair to say these women hurt you by what they revealed later? What can you do for your own self preservation going forward? We are our own protectors, no one can look out for us like we can, it is our responsibility to ourselves.

So, either (a) I attract women who lean toward unfaithfulness (b) many women are like this, at least from a certain generation (my current belief).

It doesn't have to be either or, I have found it's likely a combination of things. Again, what can you do for your own self preservation?

Maybe I should have been making more of a fit about it all with the ex, but I thought I made it pretty clear and sternly so that I didn't like any of the above behavior (the points 1-4). 

You kept going back right, most of us did. How is this enforcing your own boundaries? Would have distancing yourself a little emotionally when you started noticing these flags have helped you in your own self preservation?

This part is all about you.  

Should I have been shoving guys away when they were flirting with the ex?  Should I have been answering the phone and telling them to f--- off?  Should there have been fist fights? 

You could have, though you may have ended up in jail. These are again examples of her showing you her boundaries. More of what you can't control. You can only control your boundaries and your behavior. Good for you that you showed some self control and didn't land yourself in jail.

I guess I just thought a good woman would show respect and not do those things and would set her own boundaries because she wanted me to be happy, not that I needed to demonstrate ape-like dominance to show everyone what a tough guy I am.

This is reasonable and rational. A woman that values your feelings is indeed a healthier partner. How can you better know if a woman values your feelings going forward? For me, it's going to be getting to know someone, watching their interaction with others, before I jump quickly into a r/s.

So, I ended the relationship with some doubt about my reasoning, but still fully in love with her.  In a way, I'd hoped that the loss of me would make her straighten up, but it seemed she didn't even care, which was more shattering to me.

What is the emotion behind shattered? Which of the ten beliefs would this fall under struggli? Lesson 2, ten beliefs that keep us stuck, can be helpful.

If I could feel/know that ending the relationship was 100% right, I'd be at peace.  But the doubts keep my hanging in limbo.

Do you doubt that you want someone who values your feelings? Or for that matter, anything else associated with: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

[seeking balance]

No, but don't we all use external validation to navigate the world?  To know where we stand?

Struggli - I think you just stumbled on the $$ prize here.

NO, healthy people do not use external validation to achieve their stable sense of self (which was the question posed).

To be truly at peace and stable, we have to get to a place where we feel worthy, because we exist in this world.  Everyone has value and worth - when you truly feel this, boundaries become something of a gift to yourself, not a punishment to others.  It changes the entire way we operate in the world.

What do you value in yourself Struggli?

[seeking balance]

sorry, cross-posted suzn

[struggli]

So, these examples represent her boundaries. You can't "adjust" someone else's boundaries. Your boundaries are not rules for her to live by, they are rules, based on your values, for you to live by. I think it would be fair to say these behaviors would make anyone feel uncomfortable. What can you do in the future when you notice your sense of security being triggered? 

This is one of those things I struggle with.  So, say I see a guy beating a dog with a crow bar.  I feel that this is wrong.  Since it violates my boundaries of what I think is acceptable treatment of an amimal, do I just walk away since it's someone else living by his boundaries and not mine?  Or do I whack the guy over the head to do what seems to be right (protect the dog and stop the violence)?  Yes, I understand the difference between the decision being violent/life threatening/illegal whereas my girlfriend texting/flirting with other guys isn't illegal.  But aren't morality and values something established as a community?  As a group?  Keep each other in check?  So, I just disengage when I see injustice or misbehavior, pretending to have blinders on?  Do you not communicate with your partner when something feels hurtful?  Do you not try to reach a medium where you both feel comfortable?  Or to each his own, etc? 

Maybe my analogy is too extreme using physical violence as a comparison to emotional turmoil.  But they both hurt and can be just as devastating. 

When I notice my sense of security being triggered?  I don't know.  Walk away or disengage?  That's hard to do with someone with whom one has an emotional attachemnt.

Are you suggesting something else? 

What, from your past, did her admission trigger in you? This is important to ask yourself. That being said, one of the things I struggled to let go of when I was trying to make sense of my own breakup was the thought that somehow "I" was different than everyone else my ex told me about, anyone she was either involved with or had been. My ex told me and showed me who she was. I turned a blind eye. I later had to come to terms with why I stayed. 

Well, a lot of it was the past with her that was triggered.  I started being suspect of a lot of her behaviors that previously were puzzling or made me feel uncomfortable.  It was like the whole relationship was looked at through a new lens and it seemed like everything she was doing was indicative of cheating or at least that "type" of behavior. 

As far as childhood stuff, I don't really know.  I think I've become increasingly distrustful of people with age and experience and I thought I had found someone (my ex) who was so close with me and, therefore, trustworthy. 

Maybe I have just as much work to do as she does, as according to my therapist I should trust people more.  When one person screws me over, I apply a blanket "this is what humans are capable of doing" to all people.  In my microcosm, I have come to believe that any of the values I hold for a relationship died about 50 years ago, and maybe even then were only a facade.

I believed I was different too.  She told me her ex would tell her to "f--k off" and "go jump off a f--king cliff", but towards the end of our relationship, I could see why he might've said that as I was feeling the same way.  She portrayed him as a jerk and would even pick on things when talking about him, like his shoes or the kind of car he wanted to buy.  But then, at other times, she would portray him in a nostalgic way, which of course rattled my security.

She once asked me if I was going to "turn into a monster" which I was completely baffled by.  But later I understood it when one night I lost my cool with her to the point I probably couldve gotten into legal trouble.  Yes, I had turned into a monster in that moment.  And then I knew what she meant.  Her behavior most get increasingly worse to the point of driving her partners to insanity/madness.  Yes, I know I make my own decisions and am responsible for my own actions, but I got it then.  I don't think she got it though.  I think she thinks everyone just turns sour at some point and takes no responsibility for her driving them to madness.

I think her admission helped removed some of the complete confusion in my mind about her behavior.  It gave me more clarity and guided me closer to ending the relationship.  But, still, it felt somewhat unfair, judging her for her past.  We all make mistakes, sometimes multiple times.  I wanted to believe in her being better (my vision perhaps) and not holding her to her past.  But I couldn't get that stigma out of my mind once she told me that.  The irony of it was she had read a book about how sexual abuse survivors act out as adults (recommended by our therapist) and she said she now understood why she does the things she does, including hiding her phone and maintaining emotional relationships with other men.  But she kept doing it.

Is it fair to say these women hurt you by what they revealed later? What can you do for your own self preservation going forward? We are our own protectors, no one can look out for us like we can, it is our responsibility to ourselves.

Yes.  I felt duped on many occasions.  But with some it was just despicable from the start, like my brother's now ex-wife subtly seducing me while my brother was at work.  I left for that one.  Or on two different occasions with two different friends, their girlfriends both whispering to me they wanted to give me oral sex.  It's just not painting a hopeful picture of women for me.  Yeah, it's an ego boost, but it's also messed up.  Sometimes I wonder whether I should just go along with it all and stop trying to maintain my current values.

At this point, self preservation seems to be isolation.  staying away from people and keeping them at arms' length.  Tough exterior.  Right now, the touch of a woman would make me more ecstatic than anything.  It's been a year since I've had that.  But it seems like a recipe for future hurt to get engaged with a woman.  It's what brings me to my knees more than anything, losing a woman I love, with this relationship being the worst.

So maybe it's better to be sexless than to participate with cheating women or set myself up for future heartache.

It doesn't have to be either or, I have found it's likely a combination of things. Again, what can you do for your own self preservation?

Be happy with masturbation and solitude?

You kept going back right, most of us did. How is this enforcing your own boundaries? Would have distancing yourself a little emotionally when you started noticing these flags have helped you in your own self preservation?

This part is all about you. 

Maybe that's what I'm doing know, but I guess there still isn't enough distance there.

You could have, though you may have ended up in jail. These are again examples of her showing you her boundaries. More of what you can't control. You can only control your boundaries and your behavior. Good for you that you showed some self control and didn't land yourself in jail.

Yeah, I guess it could be worse.  I did one time slap my "friend" on the butt so hard it almost knocked him over.  That was after he squeezed my ex's butt.  Or so she said.  To be honest, I never even saw it happen.  But what I did see was her holding his hand and putting her arm around his waist and he had his arm around hers.  I was enraged the whole time, but tried to be the strong/confident bf and paid it no attention until she came crying to me that he grabbed her butt as if she felt violated.  She seemed so shocked, but I was thinking "No sh-t, you idiot.  You've been all over him."  I was angry with both of them.

I never heard from him again after that night.

This is reasonable and rational. A woman that values your feelings is indeed a healthier partner. How can you better know if a woman values your feelings going forward? For me, it's going to be getting to know someone, watching their interaction with others, before I jump quickly into a r/s.

Well, if a woman is looking for a stepping stone while she's still with someone else, that's a gigantic red flag for me.  One girl that I see two or three times a week via work is always very flirty with me.  She even gets her cleavage positioned so I can see it clearly.  I suppose that was a red flag.  But I figured I better start at least making some contact with women, so I agave her my number to leave the ball in her court and so as to not make things weird with work.  A few days later she tells me she is in a relationship but that she takes it as a huge compliment that I was interested in her.  I thank her for being straightforward and I stop pursuit.  But her?  Nope, still flirting and trying to get my attention.  Why?  I think I may just ask her to stop flirting with me next time I see her.

Maybe if a woman shows interest in me, that's a red flag?  It's starting to seem that way.  Only the slutty ones want me apparently.  And they are probably just trolling for anyone.  Damn, ego crush.

What is the emotion behind shattered? Which of the ten beliefs would this fall under struggli? Lesson 2, ten beliefs that keep us stuck, can be helpful.

Feeling that I have a confidant and lover, someone I can trust completely, someone who wanted me just as much as I wanted her.  But she didn't care at all.  I was completely expendable.  Yeah, I have the ten beliefs PDF on every electronic device I have.  I've even referred "real life" friends to it.  But I still hold onto many of the beliefs I suppose.

Do you doubt that you want someone who values your feelings? Or for that matter, anything else associated with: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships

I think I've never doubted my boundaries in my entire life until now.  It's like what I thought I knew was right and wrong has been thrown into a blender.  It's like a psychological thriller.  I just really don't know anymore.  There are swingers, people who ignore cheating, guys that don't care if their girlfriends kiss other guys.  Maybe I was just being too rigid and needed to re-evaluate my ideals.  Maybe I need to be a more evolved, open-minded man.  But as much as I try to convince myself of all that, I couldn't ever manage to pull it off.  Seeing my ex get a phone call from "Justin" or whomever's male name would pop up on her phone immediately sent me into jealous/protective mode and seeing her get a smirk before hiding her phone didn't help any. 

But I thought I wasn't respecting her feelings because I was keeping her away from her friends who all seemed to be horny single men, and that I was disgustingly jealous for asking her not to hold hands with guys, or that I was needy for thinking at least some daily communication would be nice even if we didn't see each other. 

So, I wondered whether my feelings/boundaries/values were all built upon a flawed foundation.  I still do.  I still wonder if she was right about it all and I was the crazy one.

Did I make any sense at all or answer any questions or was it just a long rant?

[struggli]

Struggli - I think you just stumbled on the $$ prize here.

NO, healthy people do not use external validation to achieve their stable sense of self (which was the question posed).

To be truly at peace and stable, we have to get to a place where we feel worthy, because we exist in this world.  Everyone has value and worth - when you truly feel this, boundaries become something of a gift to yourself, not a punishment to others.  It changes the entire way we operate in the world.

What do you value in yourself Struggli?

Hmmm.  I don't know.  When you ask me, my mind is blank.  I can tell you what others value in me, but that is going back to external validation.  I don't know.  Maybe I don't really value me.

[struggli]

I find myself wanting to call her lately.  My brother tells me it's "the worst idea ever."  I don't know.  It's just still so weird how it feels it's all left hanging, suspended.  I feel like it's a stalemate that's gone on for a year rather than a year of healing.  It's like I'm a kid and my mom is supposed to pick me up at school, but she never showed up.  So, a year later, I'm still just hanging around the school waiting for her to show up.  Why can't my brain accept that it's over?

I've given up on therapy.  It has become more of a stressor and disappointment than helpful.  I find all of you more supportive and helpful than any therapist so far.  In some ways, I think therapy contributes to keeping me stuck.

I've been exhausted this weekend, sleeping a lot.  And my dreams are filled with the ex.

In one of the dreams, she tells me everything is going to be ok between us and I get that good, secure feeling, but the underlying doubt is still there.  She jumps back into my life like Jenny does with Forrest, but later that evening she is back into party girl mode -- all flirty and touchy feely with some guy and ignoring me.

Maybe my tolerance for pain has become greater so closure takes longer?

[Inside]

Struggli, you said, “So, I wondered whether my feelings/boundaries/values were all built upon a flawed foundation.  I still do.  I still wonder if she was right about it all and I was the crazy one.”  Among other things.

May I complement you on your integrity and introspection   Impressive!  I’ve just stopped a two year+ ‘relationship’ with the equivalent of what you’ve described …in so many ways it’s uncanny.  Perhaps we all have, and that’s why we’re here.  BPD reminds me of a successful virus, stopping just short of killing its host, it lives on to reproduce.  Insidious  

You are not flawed my friend, ‘we’ have what most woman claim to be looking for (and I don’t consider that narcissistic ladies   Prior to your 50 year retrospective on values, men had the ‘power and control’ to at least publicly be viewed as The Villains.  Now, given equal opportunities, women appear to be equal offenders; some even admitting it.  As we (men) have been taken down several pegs, we’ve become used to it, and seem to permanently doubt our roles and rules in ‘modern society.’  Don’t – period

If ‘this’ is the new normal, or battle field, then fight on.  My brother, after a hellalotious marriage/ divorce and picking up the peaces, just met a wonderful healthy woman.  I’m so happy for him.  But most of all, it’s led me to believe – they’re out there!  In fact, she’d nearly written off finding another mate herself… 

I know what you mean and can relate to the reoccurring exposure to your exBPD in the workplace.  I’ve frequently seen mine (between breakups and recycles) as we’re part of an extended group of friends, which is how we met – having also once been that ‘star couple.’  And, as she’s glommed onto my male friends, then instantly clinging to them after a break and milking them for info on me …while holding hands (at least) and drinking - she gleans enough info on me to re-insert herself into my life.  Dam-it. 

She has sought therapy, which is the only reason I’d recently gave her another chance.  Now, I’ve been considering the same.  But when we’d done ‘couples counseling,’ at her instance; I felt fine, whereas she clammed up and played normal.  But her fear of BPD has only allowed her therapist to nibble at the edges, and that’s obviously not enough.  Man, I could go on for hours … but from all you’ve described, my experiences would be just a slightly different flavor & twist ~

My suggestion is doing the hard stuff; at least it’s never been that easy for me.  Putting yourself out there; making the effort it takes to meet as many women as it takes to find a good one.  Yes, they’re there, and as mentioned, often as traumatized as us!  If nothing else, our exposure to various PD’s, if BPD in particular, will give us an internal heads-up on some stuff we may not have recognized or taken seriously in previous attempts.  I’ve had another female interest in the interim with my former BPDgf, more as a companion than a lover, but have decided to look further.  If my little brother can do it, after years of ‘advice from me,’ so can I

Again, your candid descriptions and shared experience leaves me convinced you’re a Stellar Guy.  So, it’s not You!  It’s BPD…  And something’s always haunted me about my BPDgf …as much as I’ve loved her (and I have), I’ve often wondered ‘whose she’d be’ if she didn’t have BPD... . ?  How successful would her life have been.?  Where would/ should she be?  Cuz where she’s at now is a far uglier place than we are.  No matter how bad it sometimes hurts us, we have hope.  They don’t. 

[Inside]

And Struggli, you said, “She jumps back into my life like Jenny does with Forrest, but later that evening she is back into party girl mode -- all flirty and touchy feely with some guy and ignoring me.”  - Identical behavior over here! 

How many recycles have you experienced... . ?  I’m likely at (and hopefully stopped at) 6 or 7.  The ‘good thing’ is how each has lasted less and less time.  Nearer the beginning, I also experienced pain beyond description – and was so thankful for ‘this place.’  Lately, I’ve watched the end arrive.  Having set boundaries and expectations, she’s been as quick to agree with them as she is to break them!  So I’ve come to think, ‘what am I really losing?’  Answer; nothing.  Sure, some fun in the sack, that’s never been a problem, but I want and need MORE.  Apparently, she doesn’t.  So with each break, I’ve lost and hurt less.  In the interim, I’ve slowly moved on.  And if nothing else, learned I can live without her.

Man – what if you listened to family and friends... . ?  Not the horney guys – but those who really care about You.  And hell, even some of the horney guys are thinking twice   Me?  My family & friends think I’m nuts, or a glutton for punishment.  Even lost the respect of my aforementioned ‘companion’ on this last recycle.  In fact, how many friends have you lost with/ from her... . ?  Mine seems to eat em up!  If they’re male, she’s plying them for all they’re worth (recently read BPD’s described as parasites, and agree); if they’re female, they shy away from me for fear of ending up in her sights.  No win!

You ask: “Maybe my tolerance for pain has become greater so closure takes longer?” 

If I get your meaning... . I thought my increased tolerance for pain would better allow me to tolerate her egregious behavior.  All it did was allow her to wander further and faster, disrespecting me even more - cuz apparently I’d now take it.  Well, I’ve taken less and less.  I’ve not expected much from her, but need far more than the tidbits of her time she’s tossed my way as of late.  Then again – be careful what I wish for... . ?  My heart goes out to those having married into this, and had kids :'(  Us?  At ‘mid-life,’ it’s simply heartbreak for me, and hopefully temporary.  So, given what we’d ultimately desire, at least me, and assuming with your morals and values, you too – can you envision married to ‘her?’  …shaking head sideways… 

I know the want… and remember well the good times …it’s an infection we must all endure.  But, I also remember the pain, and would that ever end?  I don’t think so.  So, after doing what I tried so hard not to, I allowed myself to try again.  The results?  An even quicker end.  Dodge it, avoid her.  She won’t make it easy, she needs to feel needed - and obviously felt that with you.  But what do You need and deserve?  It sounds as if everyone around her deserves more than they’ve ended up with.  So to share the best advice I’ve recently been given: More forward.  With a clear head, do what’s best for You …and that’s not always what’s easiest.  You can do it – you’ve the morals, and have done far better than me! 

[struggli]

Thanks for the replies Inside.

Maybe I just need to get laid to move on.  It's been a year without sex and probably 3 years without dysfunctional sex.  I'm 35 and it kind of feels like the end.  I don't really have the drive to meet anyone new.  Maybe I need more recovery time.  I feel weak in that regard that I haven't at least had sex once in a year.  It's like another blow to the already damaged ego.  But I've never been good with casual sex either.  Maybe it's something I need to work on, but I don't really want to I guess.

In the first year and half we did the breakup/makeup thing once.  The last 6 months was probably 3 or 4 times, so the recycling got more rapid in our case as well.  She left me the first couple times; by the end, I had a very short fuse.  For instance, one night she told me she'd be at my place when I got off work.  After a couple hours and many attempts at calling her, I came home and threw all her crap in a pile by the front door.  She showed up a couple hours later (maybe 4 hours after I got home, like 2 am or something) and said she fell asleep at work.  But I felt she was lying to me since she works only a block away from the bar/club scene.  If it had just happened one night, I guess it would have been absurd of me to do that, but after her stories started to seem less and less convincing and her efforts at the relationship weaker and weaker, so did my patience evaporate.

I could never prove a lot of the things I suspected, which makes it hard to feel like I did the right thing sometimes.  I can't prove she cheated, but *probably* did.  I can't prove she was really at the bars when she showed up at early morning hours.  I can't prove she was up to something shady when she'd occasionally leave immediately in the morning and tell me she had somewhere to be but wouldn't make eye contact with me.  Just increasingly sketchy behavior.  Gut feelings.  Feeling stressed all the time.

Some might say it was jealousy or insecurity.  Yes, those played a role, but I wonder if there was something more to it.  That I wasn't just being paranoid.  That where there is smoke there is fire.  There were many second chances.  Why didn't I give it another when started contacting me again?  It was hard to resist.

I think my eccentricities make it hard to move on too.  She, perhaps only because of the possible disorder, seemed to be on the same page.  I finally found the person who sees the world the way I do... . all except for relationship dynamics -- not flirting, sex is important, don't maintain close relationships with exes, etc.

[struggli]

I think the bottom line of all of this is I don't know if I was right to end the relationship.  And I don't know if anyone can tell me.  Filled with doubt.  It feels so weird that we never talked face to face.  That I couldn't look her in the eye.  That in one texting session it was over.  No objection on her part.  I guess that should tell all.

[Inside]

Struggli, “I'm 35 and it kind of feels like the end.”  

Not sure what you’re looking for in life, now 20 years older, I had my first child at 36 and second at 38…  You’ve time.  As far as the sex, honestly, that feels like what’s gotten me back and in trouble with my BPDgf... .  So when you get laid, don’t turn to her!  What I’m currently pursuing, and have been while apart from BPDgf, is a long-term relationship with a healthy women.  Granted, I’ve not looked as hard as I could, but definitely got the word out, considered other avenues (online dating) and lived with my eyes open.  It doesn’t sound like either of us are looking for casual sex, I think ‘we’ want the real, lasting and bonding kind – what we thought we’d found with our adoring BPD’s  In my case, she’s definitely been an impediment to finding a healthy woman.  And keep in mind, unlike our BPD’s, a healthy woman isn’t going to just throw herself at us   

Breaking up with yours was obviously the right move for you.  Your anger is likely due to her disrespect for the opportunities and leeway you’d given her.  The more you give, the more they take, until you’re emotionally tapped.  Mine has 3-day weekends; we live in separate towns.  Friday was ‘her day,’ so though I was also off (educator now off for the summer), I was not with her.  In text contact Saturday, as she shopped with her mother, I asked about getting together that evening.  “A guy friend” wanted her to meet him at another friends place for a bit, can she “call or text me” when she’s back?  After that, and tethered to my phone for hours, I turned it off and figured we were done.  Found a text the next morning describing “one beer leading to another” … the text she found let her know she’s a free girl now ~

We were once far closer, but it would be me who’d find my things piled in her driveway, and at this moment - I can’t recall why!  Borderline Personality Disorder I guess.  I’ve recently read that they look for ‘safe havens,’ or people they can return to who’ll protect them (and fix their stuff and loan them money... . ).  That’s what I felt I’d been relegated to, the nice guy that rarely blew his cool, tolerated the ‘real her,’ and truly loved her.  I think blowing apart a good relationship is what they do.  In your case, you likely snapped a tad before her.  

“Feeling stressed all the time.”

They likely bring out the best and the worst in ‘us.’  They are constant work and a one-way drain of our resources.  A longtime friend, after a crappy marriage, found a good woman (and is living happily ever after).  His advice to me is that the right relationship is easy, effortless; you simply match to that extent.  Assuming he was right, I had to justify the Hell I was going through by telling myself, “no pain, no gain?”  Would you not have more if you were ‘working for it’ than if it just fell into place... . ?  Conclusion?  Keep looking for “easy.”  Work does not set you free ~

“Some might say it was jealousy or insecurity.”

‘She’d’ likely say that.  Mind did, to justify her uncommitted behavior.  But it was strange how such behavior worked in reverse.  Me, uncomfortable with her continuing to live a singles lifestyle after committing to each other, began to try the same.  She’d plan an event without me, something including a multitude of her male friends, so I’d meet up for dinner with a female friend of mine.  She went ballistic!  After marching across her living room ranting at the top of her lungs - she opened her door and told me to ‘Get out!’  That was quite a lesson; she could tease a room full of guys, and it meant nothing; I could have dinner (in public) with a longtime family friend from high school and that was ‘cheating?’  It threw her ‘modern and open’ theory right out the door with me …and talk about jealousy or insecurity!  

Any like experiences for you... . ?  Like you ‘getting caught’ talking with another woman at a party, then never hearing the end of it from yours?  She’d check every direction I’d look down a grocery store isle, looking to see if I were checking out another woman.  Once, back at our car I’d commented on the behavior of some wild children in a register next to us, describing the woman (when pressed) as easy to look at and wearing something slinky.  My BPDgf made us wait in the lot until they came out of the store so she could decide if the mom was good looking!  There was a dad, too.  That’s the level of ‘trust’ they have in us.  Why?  From what I’ve read around here, because that’s the level of trust we can have in them – Zero.  It’s not that every pwBPD is constantly on the prowl, it’s just that they’re never settled, they’re unpredictable, and even after a decade of marriage - they’re likely to leave.  …and they expect our trust?    

“I think my eccentricities make it hard to move on too.  She, perhaps only because of the possible disorder, seemed to be on the same page.”

I’ve wondered about that, too, with regard to myself.  But you know, everyone likely considers themselves as having ‘eccentricities.’  They’re what we share with those closest to us.  As you move into another relationship I’m sure you’ll find a true love more than willing to accept you as You, with her comfortable to share what she may consider ‘eccentric’ about herself.  Just my perception.  Remember, pwBPD mirror our behavior, making us feel there’s a much deeper connection than there really is.  Mine, definitely ‘higher functioning,’ is/ was as good as any.  But something I noticed was how she’d keep a ‘mental file’ on people, men especially.  She’d sometimes (in front of me) begin to recount out loud what they do, what they like, who they’re with…  So when she met with them she’d be able to put on the same performance as she did for me.  They may meld to some degree with what we consider eccentric about ourselves, but it’s fake and unsustainable.  And, when painting you black to her family and friends – anything and everything will be used against you.  Mine had painted me so dark, so often, here at the end she’d not been able to be seen with me – among mutual friends!  

They are poison, toxic and addictive.  If you’ve stayed away this long, you can make a clean break.  I’ve likely posted on all four threads around here, trying, not sure, gone and moving ahead (in short) – why can’t I shut up right now?  Because ‘this’ is the damn thread that allows me to vent.  Why?  Because living or associating with pwBPD keeps you Walking On Eggshells – period  All the stuff you can’t say, should say, won’t stay …cuz you want ‘it’ to last.  What?  That constant sick feeling of desire and disappointment?  It’s BS Man – move on!  :)on’t go soft now, you’ve gone too long.  Make your suffering count!  No real sex?  Well, there’s likely a damn lucky woman out there who’s going to receive the pent-up energy of your lust.  Yes, lucky her!  And, lucky you!  

Just don’t get roped again by the same.  I did …my fear was that I’d discovered her BPD and by withholding that information kept her from learning and us from working.  So I let her back, broke my fear and concern about BPD as gently as possible …and got nothing but denial and hostility.  And all that after a multitude of evidence that she’s long known something is seriously wrong with her.  So, what did my longing and concern get me?  More heartbreak, stress, misery ... . and ultimately – alone (again).  So why did I ever re-connect?  Because of the same thing that’s happening to you… feeling as though I’d never find anyone as close to me as her; feeling I was the only one who’d tolerate her behavior; convinced that she’d ‘learned’ how much we meant to each other; that because she’d sought therapy she’d changed; and that she was ready to change and only needed my help – and selfishly, that I’d become the single beneficiary of her love.  In reality – never (make that NEVER) gonna happen…  As much as what I described may be both our desires …she can’t pull it off.  And I’ve no doubt, neither can yours.

“I don't know if I was right to end the relationship.”

Strange thing, out of all the recycles, I may have ended it once.  The rest were her.  If you ended it, as I so strongly feel right now – it needed ending.  What I’m trying to emphasize is that it will NOT work.  BPD doesn’t allow it.  NOTHING we do will make it last.  As for the sex… damn, tuff to turn away, but in this situation, another illusion?  Another emotional hook to keep us addicted?  - You know what I’ve yet to find, but am actually eager to?  A guy with BPD.  I want to watch him very close.  I’ve obviously heard ‘them’ described in as ugly detail around here as we eventually come to view their female counterparts.  But I’m very curious.  Perhaps off-track, let me also recommend continuing to read these threads, and offering your wisdom to others.  When off – I’d come here to remind myself just ‘what I’d lost’ (Nothing).  When involved, I’d come here to remind myself of where it may end up, and what I’ve already gone through.  As I blather on… I’ve been, and remain so impressed at the level of ... . goodness and intelligence exhibited on these boards, and believe I once made the comment – BPD’s sure know how to pick um!  I mean that - there appear to be some top-quality ... . victims around here …if several I’d love to meet.  They remind me that there are good women out there – women who mean what they say, are willing to meld with their man in a positive way, and (like yourself) who’s morals (never out of fashion) remain intact.  I believe there’s an exceptional goodness to those attempting to ... . dare I say ‘rescue’ folks in trouble.  Sure, we feel rewarded in several ways, but as much as our desire to save them may represent a defect in our personality … I feel we’re a whole lot closer to healthy than our BPD desires - and when imagining turning that love loose on a wholesome and deserving partner … WoW – let the fireworks begin!  :)on’t know that I’ll be experiencing such fireworks this Fourth – but I’m not dead yet, and neither are you!  So chin up, and move ahead my friend.  And again, you’re doing better than most (around here ;-)!

[struggli]

Thanks much for the reply Inside.

It's been too overwhelming to respond, but I've read what you've written a couple times.

I just found this little "book" that she made for me when we'd been seeing each other for a couple months.  Yeah, it's bound, with a fancy cover, about 3X3 inches -- all her handiwork.

Page 1:  (A picture of a heart with a flame on it, drawn by her)

2: I don't know what to expect

3: And I love every minute of it

4: Your love is filling up my terrors with light

5: Don't let me go

6: I love you

It seems so sweet.  Yet, she turned so cold.

Maybe it isn't as sweet as I thought it was.  Maybe it's more of a plea, maybe it's fear talking, not love.