advice on second custody evaluation and/or relocation hearing issue

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

high functioning exBPD/sociopath, pediatrician.  Lied in court stating that I have alienated and filed false abuse charges because he filed for sole custody (even though kids quit seeing him a month prior to that).

So now in custody evaluation (starting July 15 first meeting)

Relocation (half way across US) hearing 7/25, my motion, asking him no visitation, me sole

Need to know how to handle (if at all) situation he put me in last year.

Only important from staNPDoint of custody evaluation, and if he drags these Pediatricians into our relocation hearing.

Basically, he has always tried to practice medicine on them, which is unethical (physician standards, and licensing infraction) and illegal per insurance regulations.  Last year, youngest (then 12) with hip pain complaint, I am RN and diagnosed that pain is due to overwearing of rubber flip flops all summer, scooting feet rather than proper walk.  Explain this to Pediatrician at back to school physical, she agrees, does not order xray of hip.  exBPD drags kids to have xray anyway and he signs the order.  I turn him in to Aetna for insurance fraud, tell them to not pay the claim that the ordering doctor is also the father.  I also refuse to let the child have Gardasil (based on my research, and kids has huge metal/thimerosal allergies).  Tell dad she can get it when she is 18, is she wants it.

He is going to try and get the vax anyway, by having his partner at his clinic do it for him (basically he orders it, she signs off on it).  I warn partner by email that our divorce decree states he cannot make unilateral decisions, that he can only seek emergency care without my consent.  The partner basically tells me off through email, stating dad can do anything he wants, she even goes so far as to send my email (with my full name, kids' full name) to a physician at MY HOSPITAL where I work (a cancer center), to have him explain to me the benefit of the Gardasil shot (although i've done basic science research on this and it has NO evidence of being efficacious for high grade HPV dysplasias, which are the only kind that cause cervical cancer).  So basically his partner broke all federal privacy regulations (HIPPA) and SHE IS NOT EVEN THE KIDS" PEDIATRICIAN, she was sticking her nose out where it did not belong.  I wrote back to tell her that I would report her for HIPPA, and that she should mind her own business because her partner (exBPD) was a sociopath and borderline and she has no idea what battles he would drag her into.

All quite for a few months, until I take same kid in for 'defensive' reasons, to Pediatrician.  Kid fell during PE on tail bone, I knew it was not broken, but wanted Pediatricians word, as exBPD will try and accuse me of neglect if I don't' act.  Two days later, I get a letter signed by ALL the Pediatricians at that office (which is same corp as exBPDS, but different office, they have several in area), which states that I am not allowed to take kids in anymore, only he is.  States I don't show trust in them (not true, I trusted that Pediatrician implicitly, and she was not part of the Gardasil trials, never stated anything bad to me like questioning why I wouldn't get it done, nothing, nice relationship I thought).

Letter stated also because of emails I had sent, not agreeing with their recommendations for vaccinations, etc.  Basically, exBPD put them up to this as they wouldn't even know about the emails or shot issue or anything.  I am SURE it was in response to Aetna investigating him for fraud, and he wanted to 'get even'.  It could be that the kids Pediatrician was curious as to my statement about how i was bringing her to check out the tailbone injury to cover myself so the father would not be a problem, but i doubt it.  I think she would have just asked 'what's going on" or something. The fact that letter was signed by all the Pediatricians, including the male, shows me (and i've known him for 18 years, and he HATES women, including that female Pediatrician and has told the kids that several times), shows me he first went to the male Pediatrician and filled his ear with what he wanted him to hear and what action to take.

Well, now exBPD has NO CONTACT order with his kids... . . 

1. Should I revisit this issue with the kids' Pediatrician, try to meet with her and show her the no contact order, the child abuse report, the police reports, etc.  Let her talk to the kids in private, etc.?  I do KNOW he will drag them into this with the custody evaluation, and it would be nice for them to know the truth rather than his 'distortion campaign BPs are so good at.

2.  Should I do this before the relocation hearing, just in case he is trying to use that against us?  It would be nice to have a letter from the Pediatricians office to correct the one in which I am forbidden to go there.

3.  Should i not bother to even 'go there' unless we do not win the relocation battle?

This, really, is the only 'loose' thing out there that he might be able to twist against me.  All the other things he will allege I have proof (emails, texts, police reports, etc.)

Pros:

truth is known, cannot use against me in court or custody evluation

Cons:

Pediatricians might feel inclined (although I will beg them not to) report his behavior to the medical board, or to his corporate boss/medical director, which might in the least put him on probation, but I don't want him to lose his job or feel like he is going to, because if he does, he will kill us (literally).  I mean that sincerely.  He doesn't want to lose control over us, but if he does, he can find new victims.  However, if he loses face/and his means of making a living/public persona, he will seek revenge (typical homicide-suicide, so typical now in the US now that courts are giving custody to battering fathers).

Advice?

[paxfamilia]

high functioning exBPD/sociopath, pediatrician.  Lied in court stating that I have alienated and filed false abuse charges because he filed for sole custody (even though kids quit seeing him a month prior to that).

So now in custody evaluation (starting July 15 first meeting)

Relocation (half way across US) hearing 7/25, my motion, asking him no visitation, me sole

Need to know how to handle (if at all) situation he put me in last year.

Only important from staNPDoint of custody evaluation, and if he drags these Pediatricians into our relocation hearing.

Basically, he has always tried to practice medicine on them, which is unethical (physician standards, and licensing infraction) and illegal per insurance regulations.  Last year, youngest (then 12) with hip pain complaint, I am RN and diagnosed that pain is due to overwearing of rubber flip flops all summer, scooting feet rather than proper walk.  Explain this to Pediatrician at back to school physical, she agrees, does not order xray of hip.  exBPD drags kids to have xray anyway and he signs the order.  I turn him in to Aetna for insurance fraud, tell them to not pay the claim that the ordering doctor is also the father.  I also refuse to let the child have Gardasil (based on my research, and kids has huge metal/thimerosal allergies).  Tell dad she can get it when she is 18, is she wants it.

He is going to try and get the vax anyway, by having his partner at his clinic do it for him (basically he orders it, she signs off on it).  I warn partner by email that our divorce decree states he cannot make unilateral decisions, that he can only seek emergency care without my consent.  The partner basically tells me off through email, stating dad can do anything he wants, she even goes so far as to send my email (with my full name, kids' full name) to a physician at MY HOSPITAL where I work (a cancer center), to have him explain to me the benefit of the Gardasil shot (although i've done basic science research on this and it has NO evidence of being efficacious for high grade HPV dysplasias, which are the only kind that cause cervical cancer).  So basically his partner broke all federal privacy regulations (HIPPA) and SHE IS NOT EVEN THE KIDS" PEDIATRICIAN, she was sticking her nose out where it did not belong.  I wrote back to tell her that I would report her for HIPPA, and that she should mind her own business because her partner (exBPD) was a sociopath and borderline and she has no idea what battles he would drag her into.

All quite for a few months, until I take same kid in for 'defensive' reasons, to Pediatrician.  Kid fell during PE on tail bone, I knew it was not broken, but wanted Pediatricians word, as exBPD will try and accuse me of neglect if I don't' act.  Two days later, I get a letter signed by ALL the Pediatricians at that office (which is same corp as exBPDS, but different office, they have several in area), which states that I am not allowed to take kids in anymore, only he is.  States I don't show trust in them (not true, I trusted that Pediatrician implicitly, and she was not part of the Gardasil trials, never stated anything bad to me like questioning why I wouldn't get it done, nothing, nice relationship I thought).

Letter stated also because of emails I had sent, not agreeing with their recommendations for vaccinations, etc.  Basically, exBPD put them up to this as they wouldn't even know about the emails or shot issue or anything.  I am SURE it was in response to Aetna investigating him for fraud, and he wanted to 'get even'.  It could be that the kids Pediatrician was curious as to my statement about how i was bringing her to check out the tailbone injury to cover myself so the father would not be a problem, but i doubt it.  I think she would have just asked 'what's going on" or something. The fact that letter was signed by all the Pediatricians, including the male, shows me (and i've known him for 18 years, and he HATES women, including that female Pediatrician and has told the kids that several times), shows me he first went to the male Pediatrician and filled his ear with what he wanted him to hear and what action to take.

Well, now exBPD has NO CONTACT order with his kids... . . 

1. Should I revisit this issue with the kids' Pediatrician, try to meet with her and show her the no contact order, the child abuse report, the police reports, etc.  Let her talk to the kids in private, etc.?  I do KNOW he will drag them into this with the custody evaluation, and it would be nice for them to know the truth rather than his 'distortion campaign BPs are so good at.

2.  Should I do this before the relocation hearing, just in case he is trying to use that against us?  It would be nice to have a letter from the Pediatricians office to correct the one in which I am forbidden to go there.

3.  Should i not bother to even 'go there' unless we do not win the relocation battle?

This, really, is the only 'loose' thing out there that he might be able to twist against me.  All the other things he will allege I have proof (emails, texts, police reports, etc.)

Pros:

truth is known, cannot use against me in court or custody evluation

Cons:

Pediatricians might feel inclined (although I will beg them not to) report his behavior to the medical board, or to his corporate boss/medical director, which might in the least put him on probation, but I don't want him to lose his job or feel like he is going to, because if he does, he will kill us (literally).  I mean that sincerely.  He doesn't want to lose control over us, but if he does, he can find new victims.  However, if he loses face/and his means of making a living/public persona, he will seek revenge (typical homicide-suicide, so typical now in the US now that courts are giving custody to battering fathers).

Advice?

[livednlearned]

I think you have to play this carefully. You have a good L?

If you go about it the right way, you could end up with sole legal custody (if that's how they do it in your state).

If you handle it poorly, you will look like one of two angry divorcing spouses.

My guess is that your relocation motion will be continued,  based on the custody eval being in process. It seems like those take a while, and it's not likely you will have your findings in time to influence the 7/25 hearing. In my state, relocation hearings can drag out for 9mos.

Not to underestimate the ethics and HIPPA, but your family law courts probably aren't going to want to weigh in on that. I would worry a little about you telling your ex's partner that he is BPD and a sociopath... . courts do not like to see evidence of mudslinging. I'm not allowed to see N/BPDxh's psych eval and that's standard in my state -- so that angry ex spouses don't escalate by revealing mental health dx. Courts do care about impacts on the child, tho -- and this instance doesn't sound like it has really had an affect on the child. It does to us as parents, but not for courts, is my guess. At a minimum, they may continue to stick you with joint legal but say that neither of you can practice medicine on the kids. Basically slapping both of your wrists. 

If you have a good L, ask if there is case law when the parents are medical doctors. This can't be an isolated case.

And ask your L about whether or not it is a good idea to tell the kids' pediatrician about all the legal stuff. I get where you're coming from, but as you probably know, you're trying to win a legal battle, not a moral/ethic/just battle. You could win the battle, lose the war if you don't follow your L's advice.

[ForeverDad]

In my area my lawyer said some reports are considered confidential and sometimes a copy isn't even given to the spouses, it's kept 'sealed' with the court or entrusted with the lawyers.  That's to avoid a parent deciding to share a report with anyone and everyone - as in, "See! I was right!  Ex really is {whatever}!" - plastering copies with the neighbors and then facing the court's wrath for doing so.  Courts and the other agencies are anxious to minimize the conflict and defuse potential incidents.

HIPAA is all about privacy of personal information.  Spouses don't have rights to each other's information, though both have rights to the children's information unless a court order sets restrictions.

It sounds like you can't have joint custody, not unless you also have 'decision-making' or 'tie-breaker' status also.

If you need to move soon, try to see what can be worked out with the court.  Don't just sit back and let them tell you it takes XX months.  When many people move, sometimes there isn't a practical way to wait 6-9-12 months.  Many job openings won't wait a few months, much less a year.

[paxfamilia]

Thanks for the advice, but just to clarify:

The breaking of HIPPA violation was that the Pedatrician/partner broke mine and my daughter's confidentiality by sending my email (with our names and what the issue was) to a doctor where I work (nothing to do with my kid).

The relocation hearing may very well be continued, and this is a temporary hearing.  If the judge hears enough evidence to grant the move, he has to do so knowing that he would also grant the move in the final hearing.  Make sense?

I only responded to the Ped/partner AFTER she violated mine and my kids HIPPA rights, and basically was telling a doctor where I work that I needed a 're-education'.  I know courts don't like mudslinging, but I didn't like having mine and my kids fed rights violated, nor her continuing to practice medicine on my kids without my permission.

I do think the letter kicking me out of the Pediatricians office has had a negative impact, not so much on the kids, but it's just another prime example of his controlling behavior, how he refuses to co-parent on any issue (like me asking if we could just wait on the vaccination and let her get it when she's older; she surely won't die of HPV while a virgin).  Every 'child' issue is a chance for him to engage in battle, even filing several motions since divorce for 'clarification' of things in it that are quite clear, just a chance for him to harrass me emotionally and financially. 

Our original custody evaluator was an idiot, who wouldn't even make a diagnosis other than to say he was depressed... . .  That, even though he was already near-drowning and near-suffocating the oldest frequently during the evaluation and even though there was domestic violence to me and several violations of the restraining order.  So I dont' even have a diagnosis, but I know he's BPD/sociopath as sure as I know my name.  Even the oldest took psychology this year out of her need to know what the hell is wrong with her dad.  Remember the day she came home: "Mom we learned about PDs today:  dad is NPD/BPD/sociopath"  Out of the mouth of 15 year old... . wow.

Soo... . lawyer says to 'leave it alone', but then she doesn't care if I have to stay here for another year and pay her more money because we lose the relocation hearing. 

What do you guys think of this?

If he does drag either the letter or a Pediatrician to court, just have my attorney cross examine him about:

1. does this pediatrician know about your no contact order

2.  bring up the whole insurance fraud thing as his motivation for retaliation, getting me kicked out

Oh and by the way, I'm not a doctor, I'm just a nurse.  (I say just, because he narcissistically thinks he is therefore a God.  And I'm just a stupid bedpan changer who knows nothing.  Although, honestly, I've made better diagnoses of my own kids problems than he has, including that hip pain she had last year.  He wanted an xray for something that only occurs with males who just hit puberty who are overweight.  My kids is a girl who is slim.  Go figure.)

[Want2know]

I would suggest to listen to your lawyer, regardless of what you feel her motivation or assessment of your living situation is.  I'm assuming you've shared with her your concern of him harming you.  She is not going to want something like that on her hands if she feels the threat is probable.

[paxfamilia]

Oh, I cannot even find an email in which I called him BPD or sociopath. I just stated that she should not stick her neck out for a chump.  After other emails in which I told her she breached patient confidentiality and it wasn't even her patient, and she should not touch my kid or I would file assault charges, etc.

[Want2know]

To clarify, have you shared your concerns of your ex harming you or your children with your lawyer?

[paxfamilia]

Thanks, want2know and others!  Yes, I never thought of that.  i guess my attorney IS a human after all.  SHe does know i feel threatened, especially if he loses face/job.  Relocation is based on the physically bullying of the kids (and emotional too).  I was crying to her once that we have to move, have to.  She's like, why?  I told her it's simple, if he goes wacky and blames me for the kids hating him, for his job, what have you (cuz he'll always blame me for whatever is wrong), then the more miles I can put between me and him, the safer we'll be.  She states, "if he want to kill you, doesn't matter where you are".  I dont' agree with that, as people can cool their rages by the time they travel 1200 miles. He would rage, probably not pre-meditated plan (I'm hoping).

[paxfamilia]

Yes, she knows.  She knows i carry a gun everywhere, loaded.  She also knows kids take non-lethal weapons (even in places they shouldn't).  Unfortunately, he wasn't even found guilty of child abuse because no bruises, but he's hit them several times, several occasions (open hands, body shove, closed fists, etc.).  And he stalked the youngest 3 times (as we were going to her school), giving her the serial killer look (she stated, I agree).  When i did the suggested MOSAIC tool online, our risk of violence from him is 9/10 (would be a 10 if he liked weapons, made verbal threats, but he would never leave that kind of evidence).  Good thing is he knows i carry weapons now.

[Want2know]

So, have you come to a conclusion as to how to handle this next step?

[paxfamilia]

want2know, I sent my original post to my attorney, based on all of the responses which state to follow her advice.  So she needs to understand the specifics, and we will go from there.  Been so burned by attorneys, though. Had 8 so far.  First one gave very bad advice, could have possibly had him with supervised visitation forever from the get go, but I was so beat down (emotionally and physically and just listened to what she wanted; she was thinking dollars instead of kids).  Next one, same thing, just wanted settlement, for me to give him more visitation.  Third one, same.  Fourth one, didn't want to go to trial, forced me to settle last hour.  Fifth, stupid, didn't show up to hearing.  Sixth, good, but didn't want to handle second issue (stated was studying for boards).  Seventh, couldn't keep up with all the litigation, my demands to do subpoenas to preserve evidence, etc.

This attorney has prosecuted for the state,  so I think she 'gets' domestic violence.  And I think she has a good feel for our judge (who is new to our case). 

It's a tough balance, for me, to strike between wanting desperately to finally get away from him for me and the kids and be near family (something he has always isolated us from), and to just try and be happy with the kids at least not seeing him anymore, even while here and being stuck in custody evaluation.  I guess, in the end, I don't have a choice anyway.  Just have to present the best in court I can. 

Kids' therapist 'swears' to me that our custody evaluator is the best one in the whole metro area, though, and that she will do the right thing for our case.  However, she even vascillates sometimes, stating that a custody evaluation wouldn't harm the kids (although it's driving their only parent crazy and broke, and prolongs the kids being their dad's pawn).  On the other hand, she has already testified in court that dad has done lots of emotional abusing of kids.  We plan on deposing her for relocation in a few days.  Hope she helps.

[DreamGirl]

Well, now exBPD has NO CONTACT order with his kids... .    

Was the restraining order granted for the kiddos?

A previous post stated that the hearing was today (6/27) - was that moved up?

My thoughts are if the restraining order was granted (to stay away from the kids) - won't the relocation become almost a given since he's not allowed within 100 yards of them anyways?

pax, I feel stressed just reading your posts. I simply can not imagine being in the thick of it. What are you doing to keep those stress levels down?  

[paxfamilia]

I'm just now going back over the comments and appreciate them all.  I'm still awestruck, though, by what I consider "political correctness"  that I cannot wrap my head around.  I think that the long-term moderators here, at least the ones who applied, have been through the system, seen others walk through, etc.  But it seems that you think the family court system is fair, that it doesn't fail these kids over and over.  I'd say we are just lucky, or that my prayers that God protect them 24/7 from his wrath and from his constant risk taking with their very lives, has not killed the kids as of yet.  I don't think just because my kids are alive (yet damaged emotionally for life) and because they had to remove themselves from their father to protect themselves, that somehow the system has not failed me or the kids. It's failed miserably, horribly.  Almost $200K in the hole, I wouldn't even have my kids if it weren't for family financial slush funding, I live in a trailer with multiple repairs needed, I have to medicate to sleep at night, the kids too at times.  My youngest won't make friends, won't socialize, is freaked out still (7 months later) when she sees a vehicle that looks like dad's or a man that looks like dad... .   Last year in my state alone there were 7 children murdered by fathers who had similar personality profiles as my ex, in custody disputes.  Dads that got custody when the dad had already beat the mom.  Just like in my case.  Because courts think that dads who beat their wives should have 50% of the time with their kids.  I kept warning everyone, no one would listen.  I knew the outcome, not exact specifics, but I knew what would happen to my kids.  No one would (no parenting coordinator, no kid therapist, no custody evaluator) act to protect my kids. He was already physically abusing the oldest during the custody evaluation, the  6 year old was already in a  habit of trying to rescue the 9 year old from the dad trying to suffocate her or drown her.  And the custody evaluator would only state that he father had 'boundary' issues. 

Despite testimony in court that the dad had committed physical violence to me in front of our youngest, the judge removed supervised visitation.  I still cannot wrap my head around how anyone, anyone could think that making kids who have been serially emotionally abused their whole life by their dad, then serially physically bullied and beat, then stalked, could have some kind of 'therapeutic' relationship with their father.  It's like asking Anne Frank if she thinks supervised visitation with Adolf Hitler or Gobbels is a good idea. The kids are fully aware their father is an emotional batterer and a physical threat to their safety.  When in this country are we going to get that, and stand up for these kids.  I am not angry because I hate my ex.  Frankly, I don't give a flipping crap about my ex.  But yes, he  has abused my kids over and over and over, and the family court system and all it's 'experts' has sanctioned this against mine and my kids wishes and own self-protection attempts.  I understand that I should not look angry in court, but I cannot lie and say that I think that the father -child relationship is important and it should be supported by any means.  That's a bold faced lie.  He is an absolute detriment to them, and they are better off making the choice they have.  No contact for life.  They made it, not me. I told them over and over if they choose that that they better never look back because his grudge holding and seeking revenge is so deep that they cannot go back. They told me they already realized that, and still made the choice they made.  So I don't know how you all cope up, I guess swallow some political correct 'soma' and accept the horrible fate that family courts shove down our throats.  I need my family.  He has moved us away from them, all of the kids' lives, further and further everytime.  I have faced this monster of an abuser (to me and my kids), with all that you can imagine including physical abuse and smear campaigns and stalking and trying to take everything from me (my reputation, my jobs, my friends, he's taken 2 churches away through bribes and getting pastors to believe his 'come to Jesus' repentance crap)... . and I've done it all alone far from family.  But I'm supposed to believe that I should be reasonable and 'encouraging' of a monster to have a relationship with his victims.  The world has gone mad.  I know I'm just venting.  I don't think anyone will even 'get it', not even here on a BP board, which is very sad, very sad, indeed.  If I ever do get my kids back home, if we ever win the right to life and liberty and pursuit of happiness that we are supposed to have as basic Constitutional rights, then I think it's high time all of us quit accepting the status quo in family courts and change it.  I know we are fighting lawyers who want to perpetuate our misery and make money off of us and a whole cottage industry that wants the same, but even if a little press were shed on this, and a few key players to come to the table, all the familicides BP/NPD/ASPD dads are doing on their kids in custody battles, and all the horrors these kids are having to go through because of personality disordered parents, it can stop or at least the courts will have to start at least understanding.  It's not rocket science.  It's similar stories with different clothes, names, skin colors, and cities, but the same horrible stories.  I know courts dont' want to take away parents' rights, but what they are doing is sending 60 000 kids in custody battles per year to the homes of physical abusive parents, in the name of parental rights.  And that's just physical abuse, doesn't even count emotional which I'm sure is way much higher. 

The way to really help my kids is to get us out of this state.  There is nothing here for us.  He has no family here, and what little my kids know of his family, they don't like.  They have stated that his mother is a freak, busts boundaires, and she is self-absorbed and narcissistic (accurate assessment).  My family (both sides) is still back where we met and married and he moved us away on purpose. I need my family.  It's been 18 years of abuse and I feel 80 years old in mind and body.  I need to go home.  I need a rest. I cannot keep doing this fighting that he loves so much over and over and over and over and over and over.  I'm going to break, and I'm all my kids have.  Doesn't anybody understand that?

[DreamGirl]

It's the paradoxical theory of change - the more you want it to be the way that it isn't, the more you’ll stay right where you are.

pax, you want the family court system to rule in your favor without it going thru the protocol it has created for parenting time/divorce proceedings.

You want peace.

You want your ex to leave you alone.

You want it all... . to be... . different... . then it's been for 7 years now. 

You're basically running on a hamster wheel and you are fighting this with everything you have because you believe it to be the right thing to do.

I can reminisce with you all day long about how unfair the court system is. However, I won't because I'm not willing to stay in a place where I feel that my children are being failed. And because co-ruminating with you about it won't effect change.

You want peace - but you are still willing and still continuing to fight the good fight. That's OK, but you can't expect peace in that moment. You can only expect the fight... . and to shelve the dreams of sleep-filled nights.

So you have to make a choice in that moment.

Do I want to continue this court battle, equipped with the knowledge that it might, probably, definitely not be the outcome I am hoping for?

Or do I concede to certain terms (i.e. supervised visitation) to stop the fight and bring peace to all our lives?


I know that you feel that maybe we're not encouraging you to fight the good fight for your kiddos. We are. It just looks different.

For me, I finally agreed to supervised, therapeutic visitation for my oldest son with his biological Dad - while I retained sole custody of him (with all decision making rights). Dear Dad refused to show up to such a debacle. Just like my lawyer told me he wouldn't. 

I accepted that there wasn't any way that I was going to walk away from that courtroom with an order that stated that he was never to see his son again. A leopard does not change it's spots, and my lawyer knew it was more about a power struggle with me then it was a desire to see his son. So we lay down that struggle and just let him show his spots.

And he did. He never consulted with the therapist and never made an initial appointment/visit. And we all moved on with our lives. In peace.

You have to do what you have to do, pax, and you are absolutely right that we've all been down a similar road as you. You are a very extreme version of what a lot of us have already been thru or are going thru. We'll support you in your decisions, because there is no "right" or "wrong" here - just what's "right for me". Sometimes that includes giving up the fight. Sometimes it means fighting until the bitter end because you believe it to be the right thing to do. You just have to accept whatever the outcome is.

Did you finally get a R/O against him for the kiddos?  I know the hearing was recent.   

[paxfamilia]

I wish that were true dream girl but it's not.  I have the fight no matter what.  He is constantly filing motions.  contempts, filed for sole custody, filed for custody evaluation... . it never ends.  It's not about me laying down, he will never settle for supervised visitation, he is made to fight.  He will never ever stop until the courts make him stop.

[paxfamilia]

Got a no contact order with some stiff teeth (jail for one year, within 24 hours, if he breaks it).  No RO, judge stated because of nature of allegations and other witness also a minor that he would postpone hearing for at least 6 months and make each of us pay for a GAL for each of the kids. So we went with the no contact order, and proceeding with relocation (and unfortunately our 2nd custody evaluation; he didn't like the first one either, and hired a gun to shred that as well).  Thanks for lending some support. I needed that, just in the nick of time.  Kind of losing it here, trying to hold it all together for my kids' sake.  He is SOO highly litigious and wants to fight all the time.  He will not settle for anything less that full custody at this point. It's all out WWIV (we already had WWIII) for us.

[Matt]

Pax,

Most of us who have been through it would agree that courts aren't always wise and fair.  My own view is that the courts in my state, at least as I have seen them in my little bit of experience, have some huge blind spots;  the processes have some assumptions which just aren't true, and the result is that some cases are very hard to navigate to a sensible outcome.

Where I think you're seeing "political correctness" here is not that anybody is defending the courts all the way - I don't think anybody can say that the courts always get it right.

But those of us who are further down the path - and have had some time to process it all - have come to the conclusion that if we're not willing and able to go on a huge crusade to change the laws and court procedures, we have to navigate the system as it is.  Which means learning as much as possible about the process, and finding out what options we have, based on how things work were we live.

Let me give you an example:

My first attorney took pride in a "collaborative" approach, which sounded good to me.  But nothing he did worked, because the other party was not able to "collaborate" - she was not pschologically able to see things in terms of "win/win" and sensible solutions to a complicated problem.  She could only see "win/lose".  So my first attorney took my money and accomplished nothing.

My second attorney had experience with cases like mine and took a different approach.  (Some good ideas from my friends here helped a lot too!)  She filed motions for a custody evaluation, which included psych evals for both parents, and to have my wife deposed - not a "collaborative" approach - an approach aimed at getting all the information out on the table so a sensible outcome could be reached.

My point is, it wasn't a matter of fixing the system - the system is how it is and it's not my job to fix it (though I hope someday somebody does make it their job to fix it!).  It was a matter of navigating the system by understanding how it works, so we could get an OK outcome, and we did that - OK not perfect.

Beating your head against a brick wall - focusing on what's wrong about the system - very understandable but probably not productive.  Learn about the system and figure out a way to make it work out OK for you and your kids (and please let us know how we can help!).

Matt

[paxfamilia]

I'm just tired of being IN the system. It's constant chaos and litigation for him.  He gets sick psycho power off of it, and it kills me.  I'm soo tired, as if the abuse from him to me and the kids weren't enough, then of course we have to be poor and stay engaged in battle because that's what he wants, and the system thinks it's all a good idea because they all get rich off of us.  Believe me, I am trying to work that system as best as can for my kids benefit, but now it's almost a fulltime job.  The guy is so sociopathic, even my attorney is overwhelmed by the mass of evidence and trying to prioritize it and file it and have it and make sure we are ready no matter what opposing counsel pulls out of their hat.  And because I have to go through another custody evaluation.  First one took almost 2 years.  My health is shot because of all the stress. Constant reflux/acid (for years now), migraines, cannot sleep.  Cannot focus at times, not working hardly at all now.  I truly truly resent having to make my life's focus just fighting (defensively) against him.  I want someone to release us from this constant battle. 

[Matt]

So from far away on the other side of the interweb, let me suggest some strategies you may want to discuss with your attorney.  (Maybe you have already, but attorneys make their money by the hour, and sometimes don't look at it the same way as those who pay the bills.)

First, delay.  Usually courts grant reasonable delays.  Most of us were eager to get it over with, and didn't want to delay.  But in your case, because the other side seems to have an infinite desire to file new stuff, if the case goes half as fast your cost may be half as much - the same cost stretched out over more time.  And sooner or later the other side may get tired of it all, or the court may decide enough is enough.

Second, consequences.  Every time the other side files something, respond by asking the court to award you legal fees;  that is, if the court rules in your favor, the other side has to pay your legal fees.  To get that, you need to show a good reason - that you are broke, you've paid a lot of legal fees already, and that what the other side is filing has no merit.  Put that in your motion asking for legal fees.

You may not get this the first time you ask for it, but keep asking, every time.  "The other party is continuing this fight and taking money that should be going to support Child and put some away for college.  We ask that the other party pay all the legal fees since they are choosing to incur them."

Third, bring it home to the opposing attorney - ask for sanctions against that attorney for continuing this case.  Again, it's not likely that you'll get that at first, but if the opposing attorney sees that you are determined to hold him accountable for what he is doing, and if you can offer some good logic - "The opposing attorney can see for himself that what he is filing has no merit, but he is filing it anyway, and being paid to do so.  That is unethical." - maybe your state's bar association has some ethical guidelines you could use to back that up.  When the attorney sees that his gravy train has some risks - at some point the judge could decide to sanction him and that will be public information - he may decide that it's not worth it to keep doing this.

Not saying any of this will fix things right away, but you may be able to show the other side and the court that enough is enough, and that you are determined to bring consequences to them for what they are doing.

[DreamGirl]

Matt gives some great strategies to take back your own "power".

I simply can not imagine being in litigation for 7 years.

I have a disordered soul in my life that induces so much chaos... . because she copes/thrives best in chaos... . and it takes a lot of practice in knowing and accepting that it's the "normal" for me. I want Zen, she wants chaos. I can't change her, so I've learned to be Zen in amongst the chaos.    

There is a concept around that we use here called Radical Acceptance. Like radical surgery to save our life, it's our acceptance that we desperately need to find to live our life (when someone close to us suffers from BPD).

Form the Workshop:

“When we learn to face and feel the fear and shame we habitually avoid, we begin to awaken from the trance.”

Radical acceptance is a concept everyone that interfaces with a borderline person should understand - be it a spouse, a child, and step mom, or an ex.  

There are three parts to radical acceptance.

~~The first part is accepting that reality is what it is.  

~~The second part is accepting that the event or situation causing you pain has a cause.  

~~The third part is accepting life can be worth living even with painful events in it.

pax, your situation is not fair. It is hard to grasp and understand why this is all happening to you - when the situation seems so easily resolved (getting rid of the person causing the pain). Since when is life easy though?

You are in a court battle with someone not willing to give up the fight. You are not willing either. The kiddos are getting older and their voices are getting stronger (especially with a GAL involved). You have to be the example to those kiddos. That life is full of pain, but you choose not to suffer. You choose to live your life happy and fullfilled.

You strip him of all his power in that moment. All by yourself - and him continuing to do what he always does.

You are stronger than you think you are.  

My health is shot because of all the stress. Constant reflux/acid (for years now), migraines, cannot sleep.  Cannot focus at times, not working hardly at all now.  I truly truly resent having to make my life's focus just fighting (defensively) against him.  I want someone to release us from this constant battle. 

     

I can't remember - do you have your own therapist?

You have a lot of PTSD/stress related symptoms going on here. There are so many coping tools (and not just medication) to combat this stuff. What better way to "fight" the ex but to learn not to let his stuff affect you as much? To live your life full of so much fear?

~DG

 

[ForeverDad]

Consequences... .   You may not get this the first time you ask for it, but keep asking, every time.  "The other party is continuing this fight and taking money that should be going to support Child and put some away for college.  We ask that the other party pay all the legal fees since they are choosing to incur them."

Court are naturally reluctant to issue consequences or sanctions, one of the court's goals is not to make either parent look bad and the other look good.  So here's an idea that may help you get consequences sooner, have any sanctions, court fees, legal fees or whatever be ordered to be held in trust for the children, such as for their future college education.  That way the kids win, sort of, and neither you nor the ex.  Using that strategy may get the court to step in sooner.

[DreamGirl]

Court are naturally reluctant to issue consequences or sanctions, one of the court's goals is not to make either parent look bad and the other look good.  So here's an idea that may help you get consequences sooner, have any sanctions, court fees, legal fees or whatever be ordered to be held in trust for the children, such as for their future college education.  That way the kids win, sort of, and neither you nor the ex.  Using that strategy may get the court to step in sooner.

I love this idea!

In my custody dispute with my oldest son's Dad, I had to file motions to compel (he wouldn't turn over financial information), postpone hearings because he didn't show up, and other types of antics. I was awarded attorney's fees.

Doesn't hurt to ask. Worst case scenario is that they aren't awarded, best case is that they are awarded. Nothing to lose really.

[livednlearned]

I totally understand your anger. It's how I feel right now. I'm headed to trial next week -- my ex is a trial attorney. He's representing himself, and will be cross-examining me on the witness stand, not exactly something on my bucket list. I'm broke because of him, afraid of him, and weary like I never knew was possible. It's exhausting, this life, and for the first time in my life, I completely understand how a person could have a nervous breakdown. If I wasn't the only stable loving person in my son's life, I don't know what would keep me going. This is the kind of stuff that breaks people.

These feelings get worse right before trials and hearings. Vent here, just let it rip. Let all that anger out here. Don't give him any ammunition in court, because that's exactly, precisely what he's going for. To push you over the edge.

Hang in there. 

[paxfamilia]

Thank YOU.  I needed that PEP talk.  You are right. NO matter even if the courts keep doing what I call the wrong thing, he is not controlling our every day choices, our moments of togetherness and beauty.  He is not verbally tearing us down,  not splitting us, not raging, not projecting.  Geez, I guess you are so right.  It's that serenity prayer thing. Accept the things I cannot change.  Accept them I dont have to embrace them or love them, but I do have to accept them as the way they are don't I.   And if change happens, I can most certainly embrace that.  I don't have to embrace what the horrible situation is, but I do have to live in it and accept it, like a river taking me down a stream, rather than fight the emotional current, I should reach my hands out to my kids and we should play in the water and enjoy the view.  Okay, I get it. Will be a challenge to get it at all times, but I get what you're saying. Thanks!  Thanks!  Thanks for caring enough to reply!

[paxfamilia]

livednlearned, thanks for your support, and I support you right back with prayers and good thoughts.  You're right, it's so much stress right now, the court fighting, trying to relocate, find a job, get a house ready to sell.  My daughter mentioned today, "you are walking around like a Zombie, Mom, you're scaring me."  I don't even remember why I was walking down the hall or what I was going to get, I'm that tired and stressed.  I have awoken almost every night in a panic attack, awaken with raw fear or impending doom.  Yes, I think I know how a nervous breakdown could happen.  But I too am the only stable loving family in my kids' lives, too (as my family is far way), and that is also what keeps me going. 

A cross-examination of projection and splitting.  That should be interesting for you?  You'll do fine, just fine.  Despite that PDs want to push us over the edge, honestly, I think we can outlast them.  I really do.  We must. 

[paxfamilia]

Forever DAD, thanks for the advice on fees.  Going to tell my attorney.  We have hearing in late August for fees, and his gross income AFTER he pays me support is still over 4 times my amount with support.  So he should pay, but yes this would make it sound like a win for the kids!  (And he refused to buy a pre-paid 529 plan with me 5 years ago, even though I offered to pay despite the income disparity.)

[Matt]

Does your state have published guidelines about child support and alimony?

That 4X ratio (even bigger before he pays you anything) sounds huge.  In my state I think the parent with a much higher income would be paying quite a bit - alimony and child support.  If you find your state's guidelines, and work through the math, maybe you can make a case based on that... .

[paxfamilia]

Yeah, matt they do have support tables that HAVE to be obeyed and even filed with every case, and he has had a significant income increase since child support was set 4 years ago.  He was making 220, but then it climbed to high 200s, then last year had made 400k. 

[paxfamilia]

Dreamgirl and MATT, please reply if you see this:  I was thinking when I woke up this morning, what would it take to convince the judge to let us relocate.  Logically, the physical bullying and years of emotional abuse should do it alone, but I see how entrenched courts are to give both parents rights no matter how bad the other parent is.  I thought about DreamGirls therpeutic visitation, and I am thinking of offering it as a condition of relocation. In other words, he pays for our plane (including me) tickets at say the major school breaks (one week in Christmas, and a few weeks in summer), and we come back here and stay with friends, and the kids have to see him for an hour at the juvenile justice center with supervised visitation (it's in the sherriff's office).  At least to the judge, it looks like I am not writing their dad out (even though the kids already have). Even though I know he will never ever change, and visitation is a worthless endeavor and just another form of emotional abuse to the kids, it at least looks like I am trying?  I haven't asked the kids, but I do think that they could tolerate supervised visitation if that's what it took to relocate (and they would like an excuse to come back and visit friends).  Chances are, the total lack of control that would be, would make it so unappealing to him he wouldn't even show up.  And if he did, I would imagine the kids would get up and walk to another part of the room, there would be no words, and then he would leave. 

I'm not sure if we should offer this, as I have no idea how convincing my kids will be in front of the judge or how emotionally hurt they will come off, so it would be weird to come in after the kids and offer this if the judge had already decided that they kids never have to see him again.  The judge did give us the no contact order at the last hearing, and he told me that if the he decides in the future that the father is a detriment, that he would allow relocation and that the no contact order would last until each of them turns 18, and that he would put the dad in jail for a year.  So I don't want to HAVE to do something if the judge wasn't even going to consider it, but at the same time, it would give the judge an "out' should he find it difficult to decide/rule.

Thoughts?

[paxfamilia]

I meant to say put the dad in jail for a year if he broke the no contact order.  WE would still want no contact except for the supervised visitation.  And I meant to say that he would HATE supervised visitation on those terms because he loses all his control, and that's all it is to him: controlling, ownership.