Your analysis, please

[cleotokos]

This is an email response I got from my mother. I have recently established a more low-contact relationship (or tried to establish!). I apologize that this post will be long, but this has made me extremely sad and I don't know what I can do at this time. I saw her for the first time in about 6 months a couple of weeks ago. It went alright and I didn't feel the usual frustration and quick anger at the things she said, due to the extended time apart we had just had. She's been calling and emailing again and it's been getting more frequent. She seems to think that things should just go back to the way they were, as it suited her just fine. She emailed me that she wanted me to call her or email her to know how I was doing, and also how her granddaughter (my niece) is doing. She's determined to play out a scenario in which I am keeping her from her granddaughter, although she can see the child at any time - the only thing preventing her is her boyfriend's "psychic feeling" that my mom would get in a car crash if she rode with the child's mother, who always offers her a ride. It's not entirely an unfounded fear, as the woman has in the past been a prescription drug abuser (seems to be clean for a while now though) and I've heard tales (from my mom) of her scary driving. However, I don't think this is my problem to solve that my mother doesn't know how to get out of accepting a ride with her, and my mother's boyfriend does seem to have some NPD tendencies so I don't know why she says he has no vested interest in this - his interest is often in dominating others.

The email below is the answer I got when I suggested to my mom that if she wanted to know how her granddaughter is doing, she could perhaps give her a call.

"Can you not accept that, however irrational it may seem to you, this fear is real for me (and even realer for [mom's boyfriend] -- he has no vested interest in keeping me apart from my granddaughter)?  Also, that offending [child's mother] by telling her I don't want to ride with her, makes for an embarrassing situation for me?  Maybe if Michelle asks why I'm not visiting I should say, "Ask [cleotokos]."

If there were any easy way for me to visit [child] without going with you, believe me, I would do it.  This has very little to do with my relationship with you.  I do not constantly impose on you, as you seem to imply that I do!  This is one tiny favour that I ask, that every once in a while you might include me in your visits with [child].

Is the real reason that all your visits with [child] occur at your home, and you don't want me there (even though [my boyfriend's] mother is allowed to visit)?  Why can't we visit with [child] at [child's home] or at the playground, then?  It is hurtful enough to me that you don't want to see me more than every "four to six months" but, if that is how you feel, I will respect that.  However, I would truly love to be able to see my granddaughter as well on those rare visits with you.

I am wondering if this is the way you are getting back at me for moving us to the [hitty small town] (which was not done to separate you from your dad or to punish him--it was done because I needed to be where I felt loved and not harassed).  I am still open to going to counseling together.  My three counseling sessions with [therapist] cost me $270 altogether and she told me she didn't think I needed counseling.  But counseling with you present would be a whole different thing, as the counselor would hear both sides--it would be more fair to both of us.  This estrangement makes me very sad."

While I understand that this is difficult for her, there are several things that disgust and enrage me - the fear, obligation and guilt is so clear to me in this email. Threatening that she will try to make ME explain to the child's mother why she doesn't visit - and now she won't even call their house! Suggesting that her boyfriend's intentions are honorable (of course, he has always been an all-good person to her even though me and my brother have plainly seen all our lives how badly he's treated her) while in a separate email sent the same day she asked "are you enjoying the power over me this gives you?", as if my only motivation is to make another human being, my own mother, suffer. We haven't permitted her at our new house as she doesn't keep quiet about things when I've asked her to - she let slip some very private things that caused us personal danger from my drug-addicted brother. When we moved we decided to err on the side of caution and not tell her where, as she'd proven she wasn't trustworthy. She's conveniently forgotten the reason and seems to have decided it's just because I'm mean and horrible, and somehow relates it to my boyfriend's mother visiting? She's only ever been there once because she doesn't smother her children! Her claims that she had to move because she was fleeing from abuse and harassment are just so ludicrous, and she blatantly says she did it FOR HER. She just doesn't get it.

My problem is I don't know where appropriate boundaries should be. I'm so hurt by the above - by her never listening to the reasons why I want reduced contact, by her incredible selfishness, by the way she seems to see me - if she thinks I'm such a terrible monster, why would she want to be around me? And why would I want to be around someone who thinks that of me? On the flip side, I think any mother would be very upset by a child wanting to reduce contact in this way. It must be incredibly painful, devastating. I wanted a drastic reduction, building up to something that was more comfortable for me than it had been in the past. She wants it to go back the way it was, because she's not interested in what I need. She refuses to look inside herself and see what she could do differently in our interactions. I've told her so many times that I expect to be respected in various ways. She wasn't getting it so I told her to see a therapist for ideas on how we could work on making things better. As she says above, apparently this person said she doesn't need therapy. To her, everything's about who wins or loses, who's right or wrong.

What parts of the above email from my mother are a normal reaction, and what parts is she crossing the line? I honestly don't know. I just know how it makes me feel - furious, and like I'm not being understood, and like she doesn't care to understand me. I don't even want to go to counselling with someone who acts like this towards me.

[meplus1]

I'm a newbie here at the forums, but it seems like her invalidations are still getting to you.  You have done very well to maintain a physical distancing in that your home is still a comfort zone, particularly with all that you have been through.  I might offer two suggestions, one for incoming mail, and one for outgoing.  Make a folder in your email titled mom and when something from her comes in, park it in the folder.  Now, I'm not saying ignore it, but physically remove yourself from your known refuge and look at that email when you feel comfortable, capable, and maybe even with support around you.  Kind of in similar fashion to the logic of leave your work at work.

  Second bit of suggestion you may wish to try is to reply to her, specifically upon the invalidations topics, and validate her on how she feels.  Don't have to agree, just validate.  "Yes, Mom, I know you feel frightened by so-n-so's driving." or maybe "With all that happened with Dad, I understand you needed to feel loved, we all do." 

Thirdly, maybe toss in some validation of your own, for yourself!

  I watched a very good youtube video about "turning fear into fuel" recently.  One of the main things with any fear or anxiety for any situation you face, is ask yourself 3 questions:

Realistically, what can happen if I fail, and how to recover?

What if I do nothing?

What if I succeed?

Watch the video, that's what helped me turn around with my anxieties and fears.  If you need help determining which of the email's statements are appropriate, I will give that a whirl too if ya would like.

[cleotokos]

Thank you, meplus1. I have a real hard time validating the feelings of someone who invalidates mine. Have you tried this? Do you think it will improve things? Ie, if I validate her feelings about the driving is it likely to calm her down and make her more flexible? I feel like i'll validate her and she'll just continue to invalidate me, and i'll feel like I'm on the losing end, as usual. It drives me mad that I'm being an inconvenience for her so she dismisses my feelings in an attempt to get me to do what she wants. This email just doesn't inspire kindness in my heart - stuff like this just pushes me farther away. I feel it was pretty unprovoked as the only thing I said to her was that maybe she should call her granddaughter. To me, that's what a grandmother would do if she really wanted to know how she was - not ask me.

I would love if you could help me determine which parts of the email would cross a boundary for most people, I have a hard time knowing what's appropriate and not.

[Rose Tiger]

Hi Cleotokos 

I'm a little confused.

What is her fear (however irrational it is)?

It is your choice whether to include her in your visits to your niece.  If you don't want to, say no.  No explanations are necessary.  "No, I'd rather not, no, I do not wish to discuss it."

She seems to be going down some rabbit holes on why your r/s with her isn't doing well.  I'm hearing that you don't like to be disrespected, period, and that is your reason.  Is this accurate?

[cleotokos]

Hi Rose Tiger,

Her fear is that her boyfriend has told her that he had a psychic flash that if she rides in the car with her granddaughter's mother, she will be in a fatal crash. Since she lives out of town and doesn't drive herself, she needs either a ride from me or an excuse to give for not riding with the child's mother. She's 65 years old and I think she should just handle the situation. I feel like it's a convenient way for her to manipulate me (whether unconscious on her part or not). She is always the victim, which leaves no other role than aggressor and I'm sick of being made out this way.

She has a lot of issues with my boyfriend, as he became all-bad to her several years ago when he got in a car accident while driving my car. She will always bring this up, saying "if he hadn't of wrecked your car... . " etc. Now that I think about it, she would often point out how it was inconvenient for her that I didn't have a car for a while. (I didn't actually need one and chose not to buy another for a couple of years  as transit to my work was convenient). I pointed out to her that she had something against him and she denied it. Now she's looking for any reason other than her own actions why things aren't going her way - must be my boyfriend, right?

[Rose Tiger]

Ah, ok, thank you for clarifying.

Ok.  These things are her deals, and people that tend to enmesh expect other people to solve their problems for them.  Not your job.

She doesn't want to drive with mother.  Ok, that is her choice to make.  You need not do anything to fix that.  "I understand you don't wish to drive with mother, I hear you."  Period, that's all you need to say.

So she doesn't want to drive with mother and you'd rather not have to deal with the chaos of including her on your visits.  Oh well, thems the breaks.  This is so not your problem to fix.  She is a 65 year old woman that can think up another option.  She can obviously communicate with you so she can obviously communicate with granddaughter's mom.

She likes to push the car button to try to move you into the fog.  You might try saying, 'already discussed this and there is nothing left to say about it'.  Stay firm, unemotional.  If she keeps at it, walk away, or say good bye or otherwise leave.  She'll get the hint.  Going down these rabbit holes is fruitless.  If she wants to be upset or dislike your boyfriend, so be it, that's her choice.  It's not your job to fix that.

Make sense?

[meplus1]

The following is the statement by statement response that I think you may have been asking for.  Please keep in mind that I do not know you or your situation beyond this forum thread, and I am doing my best to be objective where you felt you needed help in that.  Please print that email for yourself, and number each statement, so the first stanza becomes 1 thru 3, 2nd stanza becomes 4 thru 7, 3rd stanza becomes 8 thru 11, and the 4th stanza becomes 12-16.

Statement 1 - Acceptible (assumptive) - She is assuming that you do not accept something as fact.  A simple validation response or two to cover:

   "Mom, I understand that you and your significant other are both afraid of riding with Michelle"  and "I would hope that both him and I both want you to see your granddaughter."

Statement 2 - Acceptible - Again a simple validation response:  " I know you are concerned with offending her by declining a ride, I might feel embarrassed too if I offend someone."

Statement 3 - Probably not acceptible - This is a direct attempt at putting the consequences / responsibilities that derived from her own feelings n fears... . ONTO YOU.   As a human being, you have the right to your own feelings, thoughts, and opinions, and you have a right to be responsible for the consequences of your own actions.  Likewise, you have have the right NOT to take on the responsibilities and consequences of others' feelings, thoughts, and opinions.

Statement 4 thru 6 - Acceptable(ish) - She seems to be summarizing her relationship standing with you, minimalizing and distancing in a rational matter to serve a persuasive purpose  which comes in statement 7.  " I understand that both of us have made extensive efforts in the past to establish what we have thus far."

Statement 7 - Unacceptable  -  As she implies, it may sound like it is just a tiny favor, it is still nothing more than another means of imposing on you and any visit that you may have with the child.  Again, just as it was in statement 3, she is expecting you to assist with , be burdenned by, the consequences / responsibilities of HER feelings, thoughts, opinions.  And again... . YOU HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO!

will continue in a moment... . PC acting up... .

[meplus1]

Statement 8 - Unacceptable - This is a highly assumptive attack on your physical and emotional boundaries.  Dangerously, it may even be accurate (I dont know), but you absolutely have the right not to justify your feelings or opinions.

Statement 9 - Medium - Was gonna describe this statement as borderline, but that sounds a bit more like diagnosis than leaning on the fence of acceptable or not.  This statement can be taken in a couple of ways, depending on the definition of "we"... . if "we" includes her and boyfriend, acceptible... . if "we" includes "you, her, and BF", not acceptible as it would expect you to change your plans to accomodate her feelings/ responsibilities / consequences.  Try this response out... . "Meeting at the park would be a great idea Mom, call me when you are all there and I will try to stop up to the park for a visit if I have time."  This response does MANY things... . It validates her for having a good idea, validates the notion that "we" she was referring to was acceptable, it places the responsibility of getting a ride back onto her... . and in the event she didnt have that in mind, she will know to be clearer next time she uses the word "we", .

Statement 10 - Acceptable - Validate it!  " Thank you mom for respecting our established distance and visitation time, it means alot to me right now."

Statement 11 - Unacceptable - Same as 3 & 7, a third attempt at putting her consequences of her feelings and fears onto YOU.  That is NOT your responsibility.  Might be a good time to refer this one back upon her good idea... .   "I understand seeing each other and the granddaughter at the same time sounds ideal, thats why meeting at the park sounds great!  Let me know when you are all there, and I will try my best to meet up with everyone."

Separating the post again, so sorry... . brb... .

[meplus1]

Statement 12 - first part unacceptable, rest is ok... . - As diverse as this statement is, it can still be dealt with in a validation response or two... . " Mom, I understand you moving to {small city} to feel loved, lots of people do that.  We all want to feel loved, not harassed." -and, if you wish to proceed - "I understand you feel that this has nothing to do with Dad."

Statements 13 & 14 - Acceptible - use validation response like " Thank you for trying counselling, and I'm sorry that the results after 3 visits were as simple as "sh thinks you dont need it."

Statement 15 - Acceptiable / persuasive - Here she fancies the notion that it would be more fair if you and her went to the counseling... . " I could see how counselling could be more beneficial with a broader range of perspectives, and thank you for the offer, but I'm working on my own things right now."

Statement 16 - Acceptable  -  Validate it!  I understand that you feel sad, how did your counsellor suggest that you cope with that feeling?"

I have to get going for now... . hope this bit helps.

[cleotokos]

Meplus1, I can't thank you enough for this. I get lost sometimes and am not able to view things objectively. I wonder how outsiders would see the situation. I love your suggestion to tell her to let me know when they're all at the park and i'll come if I can. But this hits at the root of the problem for me - my mom lives out of town and doesn't have a vehicle, therefore has placed all dependence on me for her visiting my niece. She refuses to see the child on her own due to not knowing how to get out of taking a ride with the child's mother. She places no expectation on my brother (child's father) to clean up his act so that he can see his daughter again, and she could go with him - it's all on me. All my life she's made herself out to be victimized by various people, including me. I ended up just telling her I was done discussing this for now. I often feel like she's just seeking conflict with me. I think her email was pretty outrageous - I had no idea she felt she couldn't even call the child, now I have to tell her how she's doing all the time and if I don't i'm keeping her from her grandchild and being cruel. At some point it all just starts to feel like a big game as if it were me, and I cared, I would call. So it's one more thing I'm responsible for. Anyway I'm going to spend some time reading and re-reading your analysis and do some hard thinking about what I should do. Thank you again.

Rose Tiger, thank you also. I agree with you it's not my problem to fix, but I struggle with a lot of guilt about it. I try not to get emotional and stay rational but it's difficult!

[meplus1]

You have done a PHENOMENAL job at both expressing and maintaining your physical boundaries, I cannot begin to imagine the efforts that have gone into those.  My question then becomes "What are your emotional boundaries?"  Please, I do not expect an answer to that question, but with an email she was still able to get at you despite a physical distance.  I will let you ponder that while I reveal a bit about where I am at with myself.

In the last few weeks I researched BPD, which led me to the term Caretaker, which from there I came across these "emotional boundaries".  I am thoroughly convinced that most websites on the topic offers lists of tips on how to set healthy ones, but no actual starting points or lists of examples.  Somewhere in all that I came across the term "Bill of Emotional Rights", which are pretty much what I fathom to be those elusive emotional boundaries... . and there are quite a few sites that list these.  I am thoroughly convinced that a personal version of a combination of these "Bill of Emotional Rights" lists should be the FORMAL starting point for finding one's core set of emotional boundaries.  I mentioned a couple in the statement analysis.  Upon completion of this list, I hope to form responses that are tailored to each in the event that my rights get violated so that I have a calm, respectful response that is well thought out ahead of time.  After those responses are formed, I need to come up with an outline of consequences for each that I am willing to execute.

For example:  I have the right to my own feelings, opinions, and perspectives.

Violation response:  "I understand that you may feel hurt while discussing this issue, but could you please rephrase your last statement in a way that is more respectful, preferably without the sarcasm this time."

2nd violation response:  "I'm sorry but even after you restated that, but it still seems as though you are wanting me to take responsibility for an issue that I did not create.  I would feel more comfortable to resume if we took a 15 minute break from this."

3rd violation response:  Repeat the 2nd for a 2 hour break

4th violation response:  "If you wish to keep being judgmental after I have already had to declare two separate distancing breaks, the next break will last until tomorrow morning.  Can we continue this discussion in a way that doesnt cross anyone's emotional boundaries?

When I say break, it is one of distance.  If the next room is private and acceptable that is fine, but if I can still here the violator slamming stuff around, I need more distance from that behavior.  I must be willing to execute that consequence every time, I am willing to leave the household if need be.   Please notice that the only two means of upholding my rights right now are "rephrase" and "distancing", its the only two I have found as of right now... . feel free to suggest others.  I do want to finalize my Bill of Emotional Rights and post them once they are completed.

[Rose Tiger]

It's hard, learning how to say no.  Takes some practice, some role playing in your head to gear up for it.  Be prepared for her to amp up the guilt.  Be prepared for her to threaten to end the relationship and the other million and one weapons at her disposal.  It takes some courage to stand up to toxic people and to protect your own well being.  I think I just got so fed up with the injustice of it all, nobody caring about my feelings, yet I was expected to kowtow to them.  My dad is rather dictator, barking orders type of person.  The first time I said no, the gloves came off and I had to hang up on him.  It's shocking how hurtful he could be with no concern about my feelings.  So toxic.  Standing up to him with a firm no, that was the turning point of no longer being his doormat.  It had to happen for my own well being.

[cleotokos]

Rose Tiger, I am fed up too. I don't even know if I want a relationship with my mother at all. I feel badly for her because I know she can't see a lot of how ridiculous her behavior is. And I see that she suffers emotionally over all this. I say no repeatedly, I've tried explaining my perspective to her... . she truly thinks if she says abusive things to me she will get her way. I don't know why since it's never worked before. It leaves me feeling that she doesn't truly care about what I want or how I feel - her needs/feelings should always trump mine. I grew up really hating my mother, and it wasn't until I was an adult that I softened towards her. I try to be kind because she's my mother, if for no other reason. But I'm always on a short fuse when dealing with her because I'm being kind out of a feeling of obligation, and she'll say something nasty or annoying and I'll explode since I feel I'm going so out of my way to be nice to her and she's not being nice to me. I don't like feeling like this and I don't like the way I talk to her which is why I've tried reducing contact (which she obviously does not accept or respect, although she likes to say she does).

Meplus1, thanks again... . I would really love to see your list when you are finished. I've never thought to write down my own emotional needs like this before but it's something I'm going to think about. I'm going to try writing her an email response, using your examples and see what happens. Although it absolutely kills me to validate someone so obsessed with invalidating my every emotion that's not convenient for her... . I'll see what it does! I expect her to say that she said these nasty things because she was hurt and upset (which she sees as an acceptable, even honorable excuse for lashing out at others, however I do not). It's always the same. At this point I'm so furious with her I'm not even interested in going to therapy together. I just expect her to give the therapist a list of excuses for everything, like she has an excuse for everything in her life. She has an agenda with therapy, which is to prove she's right. So what will be the point. She just wants to dominate me into doing what's convenient for her.

[meplus1]

I am glad that you might attempt to write a response email, feel free to copy and paste if you wish.  Please note that the validations that you offer up are NOT an agreement... . It serves many purposes... . First off, when someone says "I'm sad"  that they have let the emotion become them. Far different from "I am feeling sad", where a person has a chance at owning their emotion.  Is either of those two statements an agreement? Nope, just an acknowledgement and separation of person and person's emotion.  So when you rephrase their statement, you are kind of separating it for them as guidance.  You are also learning yourself how to practice the very same way that you want to be treated.  When you first came to this discussion board, what is the first thing the members responded with here?  Validations... . usually along the lines of " Im sorry that you are feeling confused, and we understand that particular situation because many of us have a BPD in our lives."  I felt such a huge weight off my chest when I first blurted out my story or situation.  Whether the responders realize it or not, it totally starts the healing process of being able to separate me from my feelings, whether they agree or not.  Don't write that email for her sake, do it for you... . if and when you feel comfortable tackling it.  Good luck.

[Rose Tiger]

And work on those triggers.  My teen can pull me into being triggered and I've been working on, ok, she is feeling X, Y, of Z but I don't have to be pulled into feeling that.  That's where validation is helpful, too.  "I can see you are upset about X, sounds really rough".  Instead of saying, dang it, I just spent $30 on a pair of shorts for you and you give me grief about taking out the trash?  Really?  Teens are so self centered, and sometimes very hard to love.  I don't want to say anything that will hurt her core being, it's when she is the most unlovable, that's when she needs it the most.  Developing lots of self control with myself towards her.