Discussion vs argument

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi, like so many others here I struggle with what is normal. Something that has recently been causing me discomfort is the difficulty I have in expressing my opinion rather than agreeing and going along with what someone else says. In my new life it is important for me to not only form my opinions of what is being discussed but to also verbalize them to others. So heres the problem; when I express my views I feel argumentative, that I am trying to get an argument started. I'm not, I just want to enjoy listening to others positions, to take what they say and decide what I think is right or wrong and to come back to them with what I disagree with and explore it further. In other words what I would like is a lively discussion or debate, what happens is I feel as though I am creating dissension and arguments.

In my FOO there were frequent discussions in which everyone tried to be the smartest with the most insightful answers and it felt like there was a scoring system kept throughout every conversation. That was on the good days, other days it just descended into fighting.

During my many years with my xBPDh there was of course constant arguing. There were very few, if any, discussions of a meaningful nature. Our exchanges mostly centred around the logistics of living.

So that brings us to now. I know a man who I am attracted to as a friend. He is interesting and fun to talk with and I enjoy his company. A couple of weeks ago we started a discussion on our way out of a class we both go to. The discussion continued the next couple of days by email. In one email I sent I compared what we were talking about to a theory I know from work. He emailed back, he disagreed with me and stated his reasons why. It surprised me because I'm no longer used to that but then I thought, isn't this exactly what I am looking for. Honest and open discussions about things that are of interest to me. So, I emailed back, acknowledging and conceding some of his points but defending some of my own. I believe them to be true. But, I am left with an unpleasant feeling that I emailed just to create an argument. It's isn't true but the feeling just doesn't go away. I'm not comfortable enough with him at this point to just ask, did I come across as being argumentative, and even if I did and he said no, I think I would still feel this way.

Has anyone else had issues with learning how to be comfortable while disagreeing with someone and not feeling like you are trying to stir things up.

[Cumulus]

Hi, like so many others here I struggle with what is normal. Something that has recently been causing me discomfort is the difficulty I have in expressing my opinion rather than agreeing and going along with what someone else says. In my new life it is important for me to not only form my opinions of what is being discussed but to also verbalize them to others. So heres the problem; when I express my views I feel argumentative, that I am trying to get an argument started. I'm not, I just want to enjoy listening to others positions, to take what they say and decide what I think is right or wrong and to come back to them with what I disagree with and explore it further. In other words what I would like is a lively discussion or debate, what happens is I feel as though I am creating dissension and arguments.

In my FOO there were frequent discussions in which everyone tried to be the smartest with the most insightful answers and it felt like there was a scoring system kept throughout every conversation. That was on the good days, other days it just descended into fighting.

During my many years with my xBPDh there was of course constant arguing. There were very few, if any, discussions of a meaningful nature. Our exchanges mostly centred around the logistics of living.

So that brings us to now. I know a man who I am attracted to as a friend. He is interesting and fun to talk with and I enjoy his company. A couple of weeks ago we started a discussion on our way out of a class we both go to. The discussion continued the next couple of days by email. In one email I sent I compared what we were talking about to a theory I know from work. He emailed back, he disagreed with me and stated his reasons why. It surprised me because I'm no longer used to that but then I thought, isn't this exactly what I am looking for. Honest and open discussions about things that are of interest to me. So, I emailed back, acknowledging and conceding some of his points but defending some of my own. I believe them to be true. But, I am left with an unpleasant feeling that I emailed just to create an argument. It's isn't true but the feeling just doesn't go away. I'm not comfortable enough with him at this point to just ask, did I come across as being argumentative, and even if I did and he said no, I think I would still feel this way.

Has anyone else had issues with learning how to be comfortable while disagreeing with someone and not feeling like you are trying to stir things up.

[winston72]

I struggle with this very same issue!  Your post describes and summarizes it quite well.  As I read your post, I am inclined to say, "Just email him and ask him what he thought of your response!  No big deal!  Or, just leave it be... . I am sure it was fine.  He is comfortable with disagreeing or else he would not have replied to you accordingly."

But, if I were in your shoes, I would fee exactly the way you do!  It is my own form of distorted thinking.  I am just now learning that I have fears of rejection (abandonment?) and the need to be perceived at all times as a "nice guy."  In light of this, disagreeing with anyone can lead to a lot of anxiety for me.  And, this extends to a broader circle of people, not just intimate relationships, although it is perhaps more pronounced with those people.

I just walk through each circumstance thoughtfully and try to apply some clear thinking and common sense.  I am trusting that my feelings will align over time as I think and act correctly.  It is really a core issue in intimate relationships.  It is a context in which I withhold my true self... . or perhaps my stress about disagreeing is from my need to protect and withhold my true self.  Anyway, it is not helpful in the construction of intimate bonds.

And, while I am rambling, it is a part of my personality that set me up for a romance with a BPD.  She was keen to mirror me and I was keen to mirror her.

[Cumulus]

Exactly Winston, if we don't know our own thoughts and learn to express them I don't think it is possible to have a healthy relationship. I too am usually seen as the nice guy (gal ), the one who gets along with most everyone, the one who makes compromises and ignores insults and challenges. I don't want to be vanilla pudding any longer though. I want to have substance and opinions and feel comfortable expressing them. Without feeling like I am being controlling, manipulative or argumentative. I don't think I am like that, certainly have never been told by friends or family that I am like that but it is the way I feel when I put myself out there.

Thanks for your input. It helps to know others can struggle with the same thoughts.

[winston72]

Helpful post, Cumulus.  You encourage me to be more diligent and determined in knowing my own thoughts and feelings and expressing them.

[Cumulus]

It seems like I sometimes start thinking I am dealing with one issue but then after reading others thoughts and considering their ideas it turns it something altogether different.

I was concerned that I was becoming an argumentative person, but then after reading Winston's posts I wonder if the concern isn't more about not being liked vs being considered argumentative. What comes to mind is the understanding that I love myself and I have no problems loving those close to me but I don't think they in return can love me. That I am unloveable. But I am really good at making others like me so will settle for that. So now I am faced with a new truth and a new path to follow and try to comprehend.

[yeeter]

Its a worthwhile question you ask yourself Cumulus.  I know my wifes family has a highly combative style of communicating.  To them its normal.  To me, it feels like talking to 4 people that were captains of their respective debate teams.  And they will keep at it - sometimes for months - to convince everyone else that their point is 'right'.

So the question I would have for you is how deeply ingrained you are on having the 'right' answer.  I love exploring and debating different sides of an issue.  But the juicing ones at least - to me - have not obvious 'right' answer.  And when someone comes up with that right answer and tries to convince of it - thats when it can digress because I likely dont agree.

If you are ok with presenting a side - letting the other person decide for themselves what their view is - and how their view affects their actions - then I dont see an issue.

If you are trying to influence their behavior by what your views are - then this can get tricky, and could even be a way to exert control.  Not so healthy.

And if in a relationship, you are going to have to accept that sometimes your partners behavior does have an impact on you, and it might be based on context and assumptions that you dont believe are valid.  To be happy in the relationship, you have to be ok with this concept.

[Cumulus]

 Good point, do I need to have the other person think like me or allow the other their own point of view. That is a good determining factor and actually quite easy for me for answer. I don't need, in fact don't like others to all have the same view, I value uniqueness.

I didn't get what you were explaining in the last section re differing context and assumptions in relationships. Could you explain further. Thanks, cumulus.

[Grey Kitty]

Two thoughts:

1. I really like the idea of emailing/calling the guy and asking him how he felt about the discussion. Too bad you aren't comfortable enough with him to do it.

Actually it sounds like a fairly safe way to push your own limits regarding intimacy with another person, even though it would be a stretch for you.

2. I'm on a completely different side of this issue anyhow... . there is a saying that arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it. (Yes, I am an engineer!)

[musicfan42]

I have this issue too and I was wondering how to deal with it!

I think that if you're talking to a reasonable person (i.e. not a borderline or an aggressive type of person), then you could use S.E.T. I don't advocate using S.E.T. with borderlines unlike a lot of people here however I think that S.E.T. could be helpful to prevent me from getting a bit argumentative in discussions on issues like politics etc! The S is support-I guess you could say "oh I can see that you're very concerned about that issue", the E is empathy "I understand your point of view because of x/y/z" and then T-truth "however I disagree with your point of view because x/y/z". It might come across as less argumentative and more understanding-just a thought? It's something I'm definitely going to try myself if/when the opportunity pops up.

I try to be the nice person too however there are times when I'm genuinely a bit argumentative-I love debating however it tends to end up in an argument so it's something I really want to avoid. I gave my opinion just today on an issue-I criticised someone for a bad habit they do but I was told later "oh you do that too"!   (and it's true-I have that bad habit too). I'm excellent at debating however I feel like it comes across as demanding and bossy ultimately, that I'm trying to tell other people what to do. It's not that I don't want to give my opinion-I really do however my tone can be a bit sharp at times and I feel like my intensity can be a bit too high. DBT mentions intensity, as in emotional intensity... . I feel like I need to lower my emotional intensity at times in order to maintain relationshps and to make sure that my message has been received accurately by the other person. When I'm at a high emotional intensity level, other people get irritated-that they think I'm overreacting basically. I feel like a medium level intensity level is probably ideal in conversations concerning issues like politics etc... . they're not life or death issues however it's nice to get your point across at the same time. In the past, I've debated things for ages... . like at least an hour whereas 5-10 minutes would have done so going forward, I'm going to limit myself to a certain amount of time to discuss an issue because after a while, it really is just ranting and unproductive and the other person gets sick of me ranting.

I also think there's times when I've been around disrespectful people and instead of just getting the hell away from them, I've argued. I think that when I'm really mad that a time-out would be more productive instead of wasting my energy trying to JADE them basically. I'm realising that boundaries come into this too-that it's okay to put myself first and not to tolerate bad behaviour off anyone.

I need to have a better relationship with myself. I've had a negative relationship with myself, eseentially internalising my father's voice. I used to think that I had to change myself however I'm now realising that all I need to do is to change how I relate to myself-to change the negative relationship I have with myself to a positive one. I've become comfortable in accepting that I need love-that I crave it. I have sought love in all the wrong places when all along, it was right in front of me... . I am a loving person but instead of giving myself love, I gave it to people who didn't deserve it. I feel like my caring nature can be an asset if I allow it to be-I can give myself the care and affection that I crave. Before, I would have thought "Oh but that doesn't count-love has to come from someone else, not me" because I saw myself as a non-entity really whereas now I'm thinking "love is love-everyone needs it and it doesn't matter where it comes from"... . that giving myself love is a powerful act. I longed for my father to give me love and I've accepted that he won't but I can give myself love. I am my most powerful resource really and I didn't even realise it before.

[qcarolr]

I have sought love in all the wrong places when all along, it was right in front of me... . I am a loving person but instead of giving myself love, I gave it to people who didn't deserve it. I feel like my caring nature can be an asset if I allow it to be-I can give myself the care and affection that I crave.

I am learning to be more careful with who I choose to share the deeper parts of my life story with - getting some love back is actually really valuable in my building up my sense of worthiness. It is so easy for me to feel unworthy of being loved. This awareness is really new for me. It has taken being vulnerable with someone that has earned my trust - so I can hear and accept that their feedback is given with compassion, not criticism. I have to stop my internal critic. Seems to me a healthy r/s has to be supportive of both people. Because of my deep sense of unworthiness it has been hard to be open enough to build that trusting r/s.

This also allows me to engage my values-based boundaries, and accept the boundaries my friend has. So when they give me the message that my story is setting off their own issues, I can stop without feeling bad about myself. Really hard hard concept to internalize. Takes daily practice. And sometimes I am just too tired.

qcr

[Suzn]

I love a great, challenging conversation too and yes I have felt this way Cumulus. It's hard to let go of worrying about what someone thinks of you.

It's isn't true but the feeling just doesn't go away. I'm not comfortable enough with him at this point to just ask, did I come across as being argumentative, and even if I did and he said no, I think I would still feel this way.

This sounds like a good discussion. It's ok to not agree. I've worked on expressing my thoughts and views without trying to "convince" someone of them. They're mine, it's ok if they're not theirs. I do love to be challenged however, I don't mind a different perspective because sometimes I learn something from it. (Even if it's just to practice not agreeing) Are you trying to convince or simply share your thoughts?

This "feeling" you have is yours. If you asked and he said no, why do you feel you couldn't take this at face value? Why would you think someone wouldn't believe you, that you are not being argumentative? 

For me, this feeling stemmed from not feeling heard. From a time I would make myself invisible as a child.

[zaqsert]

For me, this feeling stemmed from not feeling heard. From a time I would make myself invisible as a child.

This has played a role for me too.  Growing up, I was often the peacemaker or finding ways to avoid making myself a target when my dad or step dad got angry.  I saw my brother argue and often end up getting the brunt of whatever was going on.

But, I am left with an unpleasant feeling that I emailed just to create an argument. It's isn't true but the feeling just doesn't go away.

I can relate to the feeling.  What you mentioned about your FOO caught my attention:

In my FOO there were frequent discussions in which everyone tried to be the smartest with the most insightful answers and it felt like there was a scoring system kept throughout every conversation. That was on the good days, other days it just descended into fighting.

I'll offer up what may be an analogy from my experience, in case you want to "try it on for size".  One of my problems was with getting angry and expressing anger.  My dad and step dad each had their issues with unhealthy anger.  For years (decades, actually) I would avoid showing anger.  Sometimes I would even try not to feel it, mostly subconsciously.  But that always seemed to end in resentment of some sort, or it caused me to "freeze up" and not know what to say next in whatever situation I was in.

After working through it with my T, I realized that I was trying so hard to avoid anger because in some way I felt that it might make me more like my dad or step dad.

I had to come to terms with realizing that I am who I am.  Feelings of anger will not make me become one of them.  Even the fact that I was so conscious not wanting my actions to hurt others, as some of theirs did, served as proof that I am different than they are.  Then I began to learn that anger is just another feeling that is mine.  There is nothing wrong with feeling what we feel.  There usually was a reason why I felt angry.  Once I started to let myself feel the anger, I was able to do something about it, and it was interesting to see that it passed a lot more quickly too.

Cumulus, in your case, do you think that engaging in a discussion with others might make you feel that you are (or may be) becoming too much like your FOO, with ulterior motives behind it, and that it could devolve into fighting? 

[yeeter]

I didn't get what you were explaining in the last section re differing context and assumptions in relationships. Could you explain further. Thanks, cumulus.

Well, some of if has been touched on by the others here.  If you are in a relationship with someone that has an entirely different 'reality' than yours, then at some point there is going to be some action or behavior or decision to make.  And they arent going to have the same that you would feel is rational/reasonable.

My wife and I are this.  Even the T's have commented on just how different our 'realities' are.  Like we were at completely different events entirely - because in a way, we were.  The way we each observe the world, and what we see/hear/process is very very different from each other.  Even in our own conversations between us.  So ok, nothing wrong with this per se... . except, my wife has a strong need to be 'right', and to come to a black/white conclusion (with a high logical dose of personality).  If I share a different set of assumptions and context that muddies the thinking for her, it doesnt go well.  And to the point that she feels I am arguing or making things difficult (because in a way, I am, simply by pointing out that its not all black and white).  And besides, who am I to push my way of thinking on someone else - especially if they dont do well with it or if it causes them more anxiety and stress.

The other frustrating part is that she has to 'lead' a conversation.  There is no ability to follow me in the direction of the conversation.

So I save the philosophical conversations and intellectual exercises for someone else in my network.  If its something important that needs action on our part, then we have to get through it - but for that process I simplify it and try to stay focused on what outcome is needed.  And sometimes this is going to be something that makes no sense to you, and isnt at all what you would choose.

Some of the T's have said/asked:  Do you want to be 'right', or do you want to be in a relationship.

I hear that you are flexible and go along with what works for someone elses style.  Just check a couple things - first, how do you feel about it when you do it?  (any resentment or negative thoughts or feelings that you really didnt want to do it this way)   And then converse to this, do you feel like you are maintaining balance to yourself?  In that, do you get to lead the conversation, or the resulting path forward is in a style that is your preferred method?  Otherwise you are just always deferring to someone else and not necessarily as fulfilling as it could be (the balance between selfish and selflessness... . both are important!)

[Cumulus]

So many thoughts going on right now. I am estranged from both my father and sister. I have made overtures to reconnect with them but as my new self, a person worthy of her own space in the world and not the pleasant people pleasing peace maker that I have previously been. Anyway, the reason I start with this is I had supper last night with my sister, the first time I have seen her in over a year,  and it was difficult.  I felt that the conversation would descend into a debate ( that analogy of the debate team rang very true yeeter ), and one sided argument very easily so the tone was surface, how is your family etc.  No connection.

Cumulus, in your case, do you think that engaging in a discussion with others might make you feel that you are (or may be) becoming too much like your FOO, with ulterior motives behind it, and that it could devolve into fighting?  

Wow, yes. Reading this evoked a strong visual image of us sitting around the kitchen table. My father and sister arguing, my mother in tears, " I just want everyone to get along" and me trying to be happy and make everyone else happy by telling jokes and stories. No I wasn't always the peace maker, I was a teenager too and could go up against my father in huge verbal battles but primarily the peace maker happy person was my role. And it was a role, I was only acting.

I remember watching my sister and father thinking of them as the three S's, Smug, Satisfied and Superior. Or at times the hens arse appearance so noted by the tight pursing of lips as they told the one and only way to be or act.

Suzn, it is about the feeling. I don't think It is usual for me to come across as being argumentative, even though that is the way I feel. I need to learn to feel ok in expressing my opinion in healthy, lively discussions.  I don't need to be always right, in fact I probably err too much on allowing the other person to persuade me of their view or ideas.

I do like the SET idea, it shows the other person that you are listening and acknowledging their thoughts before expressing your own.

GK, too funny. When I first saw the cat with the lime helmet my thought was, that guy has to be an engineer.

As an update to what started this thread.  New guy emailed to say I was concerned I might have hurt your feelings after reading your last email. I emailed back and told him no, but  I was concerned I came across as argumentative and belligerent. So, no he didn't think I had. Once again though the issue is with me and working to overcome that feeling. Thanks all for some great thoughts.

[Cumulus]

Thanks yeeter, helpful ideas for me.

[Clearmind]

I see it as react v respond. I use to react a LOT! FOO related down to the core. In my own BPD r/s I reacted - I took things very personally and was operating from a level of emotion reminiscent of my childhood.

We respond and engage when we are at peace with our own beliefs, morals, boundaries - we come from a place that is less needing to defend and explain and control. We cannot change another's opinion. We can permit others to have an opinion, thoughts that are different to our own. Its permitting a person to be themselves without the need to change them.

This goes for romantic r/s too.

A persons lasting impression isn't always what they say, its how they say it.

[Rubies]

I love discussion.  It is how we gain knowledge and understanding of people and topics of interest.  Discussion is the sharing of information and beliefs to explore all possibilities.  I am thankful for this skill given to me by the wonderful educators in my family and my life.

It wasn't allowed in FOO or BPD marriage.  Any idea or concept presented which didn't line up exactly with theirs brought immediate attack... . Forever.  Keep your head down and your mouth shut, you may get out alive.

In my new life,  friends seem to value our discussions, my insights and ideas.   I value theirs as I seek understanding.   Those who are close know I struggle with a brain made of swiss cheese.   While I can riff along sharing knowledge in science, medicine, business and agriculture with the pros, I am incredibly dense in absorbing social information.   I'm glad nobody goes negatively emo and blows up.  Everyone  is respectful and patient with each other.

When I meet new people and things seem good I'll attempt controversial conversation.  If they devolve to devaluing behaviors, I say good-bye.  It's been difficult, but I learned to stand up and tell them WHY we're not going to be friends.  I try not to be bhity or mean, but I am outspoken on this boundary.  I don't look back.