Why do BPD Daughter's hate mothers so much

[Fay]

Hello All,

I am wondering if anyone knows why BPD's hate mothers so much?  Reading through posts the common point I read over and over no contact with mom or kids can't see BPD's mother. BPD daughter hate's me... . won't talk to me... . angry at me... .   I was just stunned and I too am among you. 

Can anyone tell me?  OH and no it is not the fact "we" are safe to be angry at not buying that one any more. 

Thanks

Fay

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[sunshineplease]

Such a good question, Fay. I'm only guessing here (not a P or a T, though I've got enough hours in the trenches to qualify for at least an associate degree!), but I think it's a couple of things:

1) Normal developmental separation on steroids: Many, if not most, teenage girls act out at least somewhat when separating from their mothers. In this culture, individuation seems to require a certain amount of disdain and disrespect. Add emotional dysregulation of BPD to the mix, and watch out!

2) There was a thread awhile back about the family dynamics that are common with BPD. One of them -- which at least one member said was recognized by her Toronto therapist -- is strong mothers and passive fathers. That would make individuation harder as well.

3) Our family therapist added that "highly functional" moms made things hard for their daughters, just by being capable. If a mother is smart and hard-working and loving, imagine how hard it is to disdain that mother. How do you separate/define yourself if you respect the person you want to get away from/be different than?

4) In our culture, the mother is normally the one home -- enforcing the rules, dealing with day-to-day dust-ups, doing the "menial" labor BPD people so abhor. We're in direct firing range!

5) Another cultural problem that may be a factor is mother-guilt. So many stay-at-home or underemployed mothers (of which I am one) feel guilt or shame about not making more money or not using their talents to their fullest. I think that might make some of us focus on our children more than we might if we didn't feel the need of some validation ourselves. Even if we are aware and try not to add our personal issues/worries to our children's burdens, the kids intuit them quite well.

Just some random thoughts for a Sunday morning.

Oy!

[lbjnltx]

BPD is a disorder that manifests itself most in interpersonal relationships.  How much more interpersonal can it get than a mother and her child?

As many pwBPD age and then marry they shift the intensity of the interpersonal relationship to their spouse and less falls on the parent.

[Reality]

2) There was a thread awhile back about the family dynamics that are common with BPD. One of them -- which at least one member said was recognized by her Toronto therapist -- is strong mothers and passive fathers. That would make individuation harder as well.

sunshineplease,

You have a great memory!  I think that was my post.  A T at the Toronto Centre for Addictions and Mental Health, (one parent calls it a box with no doors and another author has said they spend half the time getting people Off drugs and the other half ON drugs, but which is world-renowned because of the connection with the University and pharma) which nonetheless has an excellent but tiny BPD clinic, said that the mothers tend to be over-involved and have highly sensitive temperaments and the fathers are under-involved and yet VERY involved with their ego-driven work lives.  Gunderson says that a highly reactive mother is not a good fit for a child with emerging BPD criteria, which makes sense.  A highly-sensitive mother whose child is highly-sensitive would be more attuned to that child's needs, yet might also not be centred enough to provide the necessary structure and authority.  Under-involvement from a highly reactive mother might be like normal involvement for others.

Reality

[six]

Interesting thread.  I will just add that my DS25 is much more reactive to me (his mom) than to his dad.  we definitely fall into the category of over-involved mother and more passive father.  so it is not just daughters, but sons too, that can be much more reactive to their mothers than to their fathers.  I also see that my DS25 has issues with his adult sisters, but none whatsoever with his teenage brother.  In general , women seem to be a problem for him, which I think clearly relates right back to me 

[sunshineplease]

And in "defense" of mothers everywhere, I'd just like to say that we are always the first to be thrown under the proverbial bus. Not that we don't deserve it sometimes, but the societal dynamic is, itself, quite interesting (and predictable).

Which brings me back to the thrust of so many threads: All I can do is work to make/keep myself healthy and whole, and to be very clear inwardly and out as to what my boundaries are. That alone will change (and has changed) my relationships for the better.

[Mitzy]

Very interesting thread. Many things hit the spot for me. When I asked my BPD daughter if I was more reactive or sensitive as a mom, she said I was both depending on situations? I also love my work as a teacher and probably was a very over attentive mom.  I only have 2 kids, 7 years apart, and wanted to be anything but my own mother! ( No mental health issues for me... . yet... . BPD daughter makes me so tired and anxious sometimes). I read in one book that dads are often the targets and will even be accused of false abuse.  I bet whoever is the main authority in a house, is the target. My hubby is sweet and not the force... . daughter believes he walks on water.

[Reality]

Interesting, my son said that I either would react too much in situations when it wasn't warranted or I wouldn't take him seriously enough in other situations.  My son was such an obvious star, I always figured that he knew he had many talents.  He said that I didn't put the same effort into raising him.  I figured he was strong because he was good-looking, very intelligent, funny and kind with people as a young boy.  Hmmmm... .

He wasn't blaming... . I remember we laughed about the absurdity of it all.  I tried so hard and I never quite hit the mark.  I think he was always living in an idealized world, so maybe I did okay some of the time.

I worked full-time and I feel guilty about that because I think he needed someone relaxed at home.  So... .

Reality

[vivekananda]

Hi Fay   

All that has been said sounds so real... . especially about we mothers being target practice for the ills of the world. But For my dd I wanted to add a different dimension. She is 32 and blames me for her situation which she says is due to a lifetime of abuse, this was once so hurtful, but now I have come to understand and accept this. Fortunately there is no-one who knows me and my dh who believe her.

My dd needs to have someone else to blame for the situation she finds herself in. If she couldn't blame someone else then she would have to look at herself and accept responsibility for herself and that is far too painful for her. She feels deeply shamed I believe, for how her life has turned out. Also, she needs a reason for her diagnosis of PTSD and that's me and dh who stood by and did nothing. She and her T who is an expert on PTSD arrived at this diagnosis about 18mths ago. But she doesn't seem to see him anymore, so maybe he has come to see things differently now... .

I believe my dd was able to arrive at this explanation due to the complicity of a social worker who helped her apply for a govt benefit to help her live independently when she was 18. This was some years ago when it was even easier to blame others than it is now, and I was an easy target because I was trying to apply limits to her behaviour, while all around me people were saying to relax and let her do her own thing, she was just being normal.

It has been one of the hardest things to cope with. And of course, before I understood, I would feel terribly guilty.

Thank goodness I found this place 

Vivek    

[vivekananda]

oops, I forgot the other part of the equation.

While I thought I was a validating mum, I have since learnt that dd wasn't living in an environment that she found validating. She was a sensitive girl who had to survive in a rough and tumble small rural community where we were the odd ones out. So, the focus was on enabling her to be strong... . it was not the right sort of upbringing for a her.

Undoubtedly she found it very invalidating and I was the one who carried that burden. For her it must have felt abusive, if not at the time, then in retrospect for sure. So, of course if she felt abused, she was abused, so logic goes. And that's the truth.

And that's so sad.

Vivek    

[sunshineplease]

Wow, Vivek , did that ever resonate with me:

While I thought I was a validating mum, I have since learnt that dd wasn't living in an environment that she found validating.

So many variables in this crazy BPD world. DH and I realized that the "meme"/narrative that is helping UD18 get better is that we were a certain kind of parents -- a kind that our friends and family swears emphatically we were not. But that is her reality, so it is real.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Fay]

Wow what wonderful comments. So, intelligent and thought provoking.  It made me feel better too.  Thank you all so much.

Wow!

Peace to you all today

Fay

[heronbird]

I love this thread, one of the best interesting and insightful too.

Funny, my sister who is non BPD, once said that she always felt inadequate because she saw my mum as so capable in every situation. Yet I saw that in a different light, I just thought its good because we see her being so well balanced and it will rub off on us.

Its so true though, my dd is more hateful towards me, she does sometimes hero worship me at times. I get the raw deal. Ive wronged her about 6 times in her life and she only seems to remember those 6 times.

Now shes had her baby, when she started getting worse a few weeks ago, she said she has feelings that she is a useless mum and what was she thinking of having a baby when she is not right, she said the baby would be better off with me, I can stop him crying when he needs that and I always know what to do.

Im saying this because of sunshine please s post about strong mums etc

I am too the strong one and dh is the practical one, he does not seem to get too upset most of the time.

[js friend]

Funny, my sister who is non BPD, once said that she always felt inadequate because she saw my mum as so capable in every situation.

Funny how some people can see so things differently isnt it?

My other 2 children are extroverts and dd and udexh are introverts which I think actually influences the way they see interactions with others.

DD and udexh both on separate occasions have  accused me of being a "showoff", and "being full of myself" just for socialising.  

Another time dd said  that  I was a "poser" when I all doing was enjoying myself. I wasnt drinking or flirting or anything like that but that was her perception... . Sometimes I think I can actually see how annoyed she looks when it grates on her to see people having fun.

Even our different sense of humour would rub them up the wrong way.

She lived at home she always hated that my other children were out and about socialising, or hated when they had friends over too... . didnt want to join them and hated the noise they made.

It was a totally no win situation sometimes.

Actually being able to talk to people is necessary part of the job i do.

Other people have told me  that being able to talk to others and put them at ease is a skill to be admired but dd and udexh used to just criticise me for it.  

[heronbird]

I guess all different children will see everything very differently. Its different with BP.

I was just dosing on the settee haha, thinking about this thread and how good it is and I thought, why is it that dd seems to have it in for me or is not always very happy with me.

First of all, Ive noticed its usually only when she is dysregulated anyway. Secondly, isnt it just like toddlers, if you observe toddlers they always play up for parents not daycare provider or nursery teachers, they will also play up more for the parent who takes it on, if its a dad who does not take the bait, why would they play up? there is no point they dont get the reaction they want.

BP is like toddler behaviour really sometimes I guess.

I am over protective towards my dd, I mean, who goes through what Ive been through and is not paranoid about their safety. You all know what Im saying dont you, Im not wording it well.

You know, the other day when dd was starting to go into crisis, I rang her P and she said to me that Im bound to be more worried because of her history. Thats patronising isnt it. I dont like her. haha, sound like my dd now.

Its not fair that our dds act like they hate us is it, we have mostly sacrificed everything for them. Its like the book title I hate you, please dont leave me. Sums my dd up a lot.

[BioAdoptMom3]

In our case, and based on what I understand, a very high percentage of BPD sufferers are adopted.  It is very typical for an adopted child to use the adoptive mother as a scapegoat for his or her pain as far as his or her rejection, abandonment, etc. is concerned.  They biological mother turned her back on them, so they take it out on the only mother they know!  I am constantly getting the cold shoulder while DH gets hugs, "I love you" and other expressions of affection.  I am sure this is only ONE piece of a very large puzzle!

[heronbird]

Oh what a shame, well no not really, its not more typical of adopted children, it can happen to anyone any class ,nationality etc

Ive said before on this board that my best friend who is now 50 was adopted and Im sure she had signs of BPD when growing up, she always says bad things about her adoptive mother, my friend has a sister who was also adopted and it came out in a different way, she has other issues.

My friend says everyone who she ever loved left her :'(, first her mum, then her dh, then one of her sons she says rejected her.

I always wonder, what would happen if she didnt know she was adopted. My mum said years ago, they never used to tell children. Interesting thought, not sure what is right really.

I have a friend she adopted two boys, they were blood brothers, the oldest one is now19 and has schizophrenia. So sad isnt really, guess it depends on genetics too.

My dd isnt adopted and she does use me as scapegoat but Ive learnt how to stop that, so she will use her sister or now her dh. Sometimes even the P haha.

[Laurie55]

Hi Fay,

Yes, this is a great question.  Another possibility... . I have thought my DD was jealous of me.  I am able to function better in society than she is.  Her friends use to think I was "cute" and "funny"... . "loved my accent".  I think as she had more and more difficulty getting along with friends, she began to hate me bec they liked me.  I even had two of her closest friends call me and apologize for believing my DD when she said that I was a bad mother; they apologized and said they knew I was a good mother.  I was shocked at the turnaround.  It makes me so sad.  I want her successful in her girl-world.  I have never been "cool", so I was surprised they liked me.  I think it is so hard on her to see me have friends... . some are even moms of girls who rejected her.  Those relationships are very 'iffy' for me; I still think some of those girls could have been nicer, but knowing the nature of BPD, my DD probably pushed them to their limits.

This is just a thought.

Very interesting to hear the strong mom/passive dad connection; that is definitely our dynamic.  However, I strongly believe she would have gotten into very bad trouble if I hadn't stepped up and acted.  Hubby would have just ignored.

Great thread.

[heronbird]

Just had a thought I remember reading in a book about Narcissistic PD. What they do is they steel your identity.

Because they know they can not function very well they copy someone they are close to.

This is a very interesting topic for me at the moment. Ive never thought my dd was jealous, but you never know really.

When she had her baby Im sure she didnt like me involved because she know I was extremely  capable, I would have thought she would keep coming to me for advice but no, she shut me out a lot. After 3 weeks she then brought him round and asked me to keep him because she thought Id do a better job.

Shame she didnt try to steel my, I say, identity but Im not sure that is the right word, maybe I mean personality/character.

I have a long term friend who I think is Narcissistic, thats why Ive learnt things a bit about that too, I know it crosses over a bit with BPD.

So why would our dds be like this and not just copy us, after all isnt that how it is supposed to be a bit.

[FaithfulHope]

My dd21 gets very angry with me at times also.   All I ever wanted to be in this world is a mom and when she was 8 and I had my 3rd child I gave up my job to stay at home with my kids.  I was in heaven.   My husband is a great dad but he works long long hours and so I am the one who handles most everything on the homefront.  Like 99% of what goes on at home is run my me.   So I always thought that is why she takes her anger out on me because I know her better than he does.  I think she gets angry because I see through her lies.  However now I am no longer pointing the lies out to her.   Just trying to keep a peaceful co-existence with her.   

This post made me think there might be more to it. I also am a very capable, hardworking, organized person.   Clearly those skills have helped enable her for many years.   I kept track of appts, kept her on track with school things, etc.   She never ever ever has shown any independent effort towards anything productive... . the only things she puts effort into is getting out of meeting responsibilities and getting into trouble and causing drama.   Very interesting thought provoking post.

Also, you mentioned above sometimes dads are accused of abuse falsely.  That happened with us once when I took her to a new T.   She claimed her hit her.   I got called into the room to explain.   She has never been abused but let me tell you... .   I wanted to slap her silly when she did that.  I was SO offended that she would dare say something like that about her dad who gets up at 4 am everyday to support our family only to come home every single day to hear the 'latest stunt of dd'.   She has no clue the years she has taken off both our lives due to the stress of this.   But she didn't want to to talk about what she was doing that led us to the therapist so she threw him under the bus.     

Recently she was in the hospital, and now that she is 21 we were not notified.  I found out and contacted the hospital and they got a msg to her to call me.  She did and in short time she started spewing how she has this condition because of all the abuse she has endured from her family.   Claims we put her down and don't support her, etc.   She got so riled up she allegedly punched a wall when she got off the phone.   I didn't call her back because I didn't want to upset her more.  She just wants to point fingers as usual.  Nothing is ever her fault.

So... . I am taking the high road.  I don't point out her lies anymore.  I am now going to work on learning how to converse better with her to validate her feelings without just getting sucked into her drama.  I love how we can be so open with our stories here.  Thank you.

[js friend]

So why would our dds be like this and not just copy us, after all isnt that how it is supposed to be a bit.

Heron I used to wonder exactly the same thing.

Isnt there a saying that imitation supposed to be the greatest form of flattery?

Laurie55~ my dd has said the same thing about me to many of her friends, and their

parents too.Usually it would be the ones who would just take her in and not call if she turned up on their doorstep. It has always been to the ones who wont bother to verify her stories. DD has even accused me of being jealous of her because she has friends and i apparently havent got any!... . pure projection

Terry-jo my DD has also accused of abusing her, and accused exb/f of a serious sexual assualt yet we have been the ones who have stood by her when others have given up  

I really wonder what she would really do if she had been abused.

Certainly not act like she hasnt got a care in the world after reporting such abuse im sure.

Actually when I first found these boards there was a post about a girl in a pysch hospital who had an eating disorder who hated her mom.She would often refuse to see the mom in vists.Then in  t the dd broke down and confessed that she was jealous of her mums popularity and her trim figure and she couldnt stand the sight of her. She really wanted to be like her and in the process decided to totally alienate her mom for  years.

And the trim figure was down to all the stress she was under by knowing her dd was not eating, but the dd just couldnt see it that way.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[heronbird]

Hey, I think I just realised something

BPD daughters  seem to hate their mothers, well not hate actually but say bad things against them, make them look bad too. Ive had that too.

Now dd is married, I think she is singing my praises and her dh becomes the baddie. It changes from time to time though.

So does this mean, I can look forward to her being really nice to me and not to her dh, not that I want her poor dh to get the nasty side of her.

Its just lately, I have noticed that she has been so lovely to me and he paints a different picture of her, yet we seem surprised and feel like he is making it up. Now the tables might have turned.

[js friend]

yes seems like no 2 people can be liked at the same time, and worse still if those 2 people get along. Everyone gets their turn at being split black eventually causing interpersonal r/s chaos

[heronbird]

Really, this is all new to me, Im learning a whole new lot of stuff. Her dh would have believed bad things about me then. Thats so horrible isnt it, Ive been so good to her, I often think too good and understanding actually.

[Fay]

Hi all,

Thank you for all the info.  It is interesting. Why dd or ds attack the mom so often?

Love to you all,

Fay

[vivekananda]

Here's my 2 bob's worth:

Mothers are supposed to be the moral guardians of the world. We are the ones who do nursing, we are the teachers, we are the child care workers, we are the helpers, the ones to go to when you are hurt. We provide emotional support unconsciously to everyone.

Our children when they are hurt, go to mums for a bandaid, to kiss it better. We sleep with our kids when they have a bad dream. We are the ones who wake at night automatically when our kids are awake. We are always there fixing things up.

Our children with BPD have immense and unbearable psychic pain. Their lives are a confused mess and they often don't achieve their goals as adults.

We were supposed to teach them how to be adults and how to get on. We were supposed to guide them through the maze of adolescence. They weren't supposed to be living a messed up life of pain. Why didn't we fix it up? Why didn't we prepare them properly? Why can't we ease their pain?

Well, wouldn't you be angry?

Add to this a world which finds it so easy to blame women, blame mothers. When our children no matter how old, do something wrong, we question what the mother did. Was it an abusive household - why didn't the mother leave then? Is she a drug addict - why did she get pregnant? The adult male relative abused the child - why didn't the mother know, surely she must have? Again and again in different ways, we expect women to do what we don't call men to account for and when they can't do it, we blame them. In our inadequate world, someone has to be blamed otherwise, we have to look to our own responsibility.

phew! sorry got on a roll there... . I could go on for hours on this subject... . not worth it though. The question is not why are mothers blamed, but what can we do to make ourselves better mothers.


Vivek    

[FaithfulHope]

Vivek ,

I think you raised very valid points there.   I also think our DD's inherently know that no matter what they say or do, their mothers will always be there for them.   It doesn't make their accusations hurt any less but I try to keep that in mind... . at least after I calm down after an attack.  

Also, I want to give you a big 'virtual hug'.   I am new to this site and am soo thankful for this support.  I came to this site after a friend gave me a link to the Psych Today article about a BPD daughter blaming her parents.  I have commented a few times  because I could so relate.   However I just discovered that it was you who wrote it.  I didn't realize that initially.  I knew it was a guest column but I didn't know it was someone from this site.   I cannot believe all the hurtful comments that have been posted.   I made my last attempt this morning to show a different perspective but I am no longer looking at those comments.   Please don't take what they say to heart.   I, for one, am so in awe of your honest and brave description of your situation.   I can totally relate.   Thank you for leading me to this site!   I have been in need of a group like this for years and years.    

[vivekananda]

Hi TerryJo,

Thank you for your   . I really enjoyed it. 

Well, there you go, I didn't even know about all that stuff you refer to. I haven't returned to the article and saw nothing of what you refer to. I guess that's why ignorance is bliss eh? 

I am glad you have found us here. Here we have moderators who can help us stick to the guidelines for productive discussion. We are here to learn and care for ourselves and make us the sort of parent that our children can have a good relationship with.

My dd once said to me that she felt she was entitled to yell at me etc. After all I was my mother and if she couldn't yell at me, who could she yell at?

Looks like I'll have to try and find that article and see those comments - and not be hurt by them   

Thank you TJ   

[FaithfulHope]

Vivek ,

Don't even look. I am not looking anymore myself.  The people responding there clearly don't understand what we have been living through.   Or from their life experiences they have been victimized by someone with a personality disorder.   That article led me to here where I feel I truly belong.  I can't tell you how many tears I shed when I first started to read the posts on this site.  I was overcome with emotion after finding people who truly understand the suffering I have been living.   It doesn't change the situation that I still have a very unstable daughter but I now can share my experiences and get support and suggestions from people who are walking on the same path.  So very comforting.

So thank you for being so brave to write that guest column!

Have a great day!

[vivekananda]

Hey TJ, I saw it all yesterday and I am not bothered by the responses. It doesn't reflect too well on those who wrote them... . well, those who were disparaging. They have a lot of growing to do and they probably have their own problems with difficult personality traits... . I do detect self righteousness, superiority/arrogance and self entitlement. They are judgemental and have a negative perspective. They make incorrect assumptions. It is classic projection.

Now check out all those words and consider the concepts that underlie them. There we can find lessons for ourselves and our own self reflection TJ.

It was recently suggested to me that you can't raise with someone with BPD unscathed. We are affected by it. Our responses are not likely to be helpful when we are pushed. We act as if we are dealing with a 'normal' child, but we have a special child with special needs. We are not snowy white at all. We assuredly have   (well, I know I do  )

If we want to change our behaviour, we have to change our thinking. In order to change our thinking, it may help to see where we are thinking in an unhelpful way... . are we self righteous, arrogant, self entitled, judgemental, negative etc? It is unlikely we would say yes to any of these, so it may help to investigate the things we say and do that underlie our thoughts. If we work at being better mums, then we can better help our relationship with our 'children'. And that's what we want isn't it? A better relationship with our children?

I am so glad you found us TJ - we are a good family to each other here 


Vivek