Am I wimping out? Please be honest

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

After several years of cycles of emotional abuse and control, things came to a head last year when I stood up to hubby and called him on some lies.  He used to get into a bad mood and not let me take our 2 young kids out of the house, and do many other controlling things - and call me names etc for days at a time until he calmed down.  Anyway, when I stood up to him one weekend and pointed out lots of his lies and abuse, we had a heated weekend in which he did some scary things - told police I physically abused one of our sons (they didn't believe him though, and he changed his story), put our infant on the very edge of a high bed so I'd think he would fall, left him on the floor, followed me around all night yelling at me, and the kids couldn't sleep.  Long story short, I got a restraining order and then dropped it in exchange for an agreement for him to leave the house etc.  He's been out of the house since then.

Now we're going through a divorce.  8 out of 10 lawyers I talked to said not to bother trying for sole custody or a psych eval. 

I am sure he has BPD, but like many BPD'ers, he can come off as very concerned and gentle when he wants to be.  He has no substance abuse problems etc. and no evidence against him except my verbal abuse tape recordings, journal, and the rest. order which I dropped.  Fighting like hell might just put me out $10k-$15k more, and neither of us is rich... . and in the end he'd surely still get some custody and be alone (unsupervised) with the kids part of the time.  From what most lawyers told me, I just don't have enough to get sole custody in today's environment when they try to be overly fair to dads.  What's frustrating is that he changes his mind all the time and says he doesn't want me to keep our kids in certain educational programs, etc... . frustrating, but not a sign that he can't have custody.

A psychologist told me that if I don't demand a psych eval now, I may never really get the chance.  Now is when we're in a divorce.  So I am wondering if I should still do it before the divorce is final.

But... . here is the good part, after custody mediation, he only has the kids every other weekend for one night.  That's it.  So really, only a few nights a month.

From reading the internet, I got a good deal.  Seems that I could spend lots of money and end up with the same.

But what I don't have are any experts attesting to my motherhood, or any evaluators (psych or custody)... . so that some day, he could bring me back to court or something, and I never had any documentation.  Also, I think he is on good behavior now because he thinks we might get back together and he thinks I may drop the divorce.  If that turns out to never be the case, and he no longer has a reason to stay in counseling (which he is now) and be on good behavior with the kids, he might really try to get revenge.  I haven't seen him get more violent than what I already said, but he DOES get revenge on me when he is angry.  He figures out things I care about, and tries to cancel them or say I can't do certain things with the kids.  Someday, if it means huring our kids, he might.  I am hoping he won't.  Most men don't, statistically.  But I believe it could happen.  He just hasn't been pushed far enough yet.  If I, say, started dating again, that could do it, for instance.  (I'm not even thinking about that now, but it could happen.)  Or if I move to a new apt.  He becomes very cold and calculating when he's in a bad mood.  He has had his lawyer send my lawyer letters saying I did things that I did not.  So I could see him someday 'accidentally' giving our child something he's allergic to, and then being really upset later and convincing everyone it was an accident.  Maybe my mind is running away, but it's a possibility.  He generally is overly cautious with the kids, but he does have that tendency to figure out what I care about and try to take it away.  Before we had kids, it would come in the form of canceling things we were going to do.  Now we have kids... .

I don't know how he'll act when he realizes the divorce is just that, a divorce.

So my question to all of you is:  Should I spend the money and bother trying to fight for sole custody and/or ask for some sort of evaluation?  From what I see here, they tend not to make a diff and sometimes don't show what you wanted them to, even in extreme cases.  It's not like it's a blood test that will show a level of mental illness; they ask a bunch of questions and if he's in a good mood, he'll just snow them completely.  But I don't want to look back and wish I'd done something different.  I don't want to wimp out on my kids.

[momtara]

After several years of cycles of emotional abuse and control, things came to a head last year when I stood up to hubby and called him on some lies.  He used to get into a bad mood and not let me take our 2 young kids out of the house, and do many other controlling things - and call me names etc for days at a time until he calmed down.  Anyway, when I stood up to him one weekend and pointed out lots of his lies and abuse, we had a heated weekend in which he did some scary things - told police I physically abused one of our sons (they didn't believe him though, and he changed his story), put our infant on the very edge of a high bed so I'd think he would fall, left him on the floor, followed me around all night yelling at me, and the kids couldn't sleep.  Long story short, I got a restraining order and then dropped it in exchange for an agreement for him to leave the house etc.  He's been out of the house since then.

Now we're going through a divorce.  8 out of 10 lawyers I talked to said not to bother trying for sole custody or a psych eval. 

I am sure he has BPD, but like many BPD'ers, he can come off as very concerned and gentle when he wants to be.  He has no substance abuse problems etc. and no evidence against him except my verbal abuse tape recordings, journal, and the rest. order which I dropped.  Fighting like hell might just put me out $10k-$15k more, and neither of us is rich... . and in the end he'd surely still get some custody and be alone (unsupervised) with the kids part of the time.  From what most lawyers told me, I just don't have enough to get sole custody in today's environment when they try to be overly fair to dads.  What's frustrating is that he changes his mind all the time and says he doesn't want me to keep our kids in certain educational programs, etc... . frustrating, but not a sign that he can't have custody.

A psychologist told me that if I don't demand a psych eval now, I may never really get the chance.  Now is when we're in a divorce.  So I am wondering if I should still do it before the divorce is final.

But... . here is the good part, after custody mediation, he only has the kids every other weekend for one night.  That's it.  So really, only a few nights a month.

From reading the internet, I got a good deal.  Seems that I could spend lots of money and end up with the same.

But what I don't have are any experts attesting to my motherhood, or any evaluators (psych or custody)... . so that some day, he could bring me back to court or something, and I never had any documentation.  Also, I think he is on good behavior now because he thinks we might get back together and he thinks I may drop the divorce.  If that turns out to never be the case, and he no longer has a reason to stay in counseling (which he is now) and be on good behavior with the kids, he might really try to get revenge.  I haven't seen him get more violent than what I already said, but he DOES get revenge on me when he is angry.  He figures out things I care about, and tries to cancel them or say I can't do certain things with the kids.  Someday, if it means huring our kids, he might.  I am hoping he won't.  Most men don't, statistically.  But I believe it could happen.  He just hasn't been pushed far enough yet.  If I, say, started dating again, that could do it, for instance.  (I'm not even thinking about that now, but it could happen.)  Or if I move to a new apt.  He becomes very cold and calculating when he's in a bad mood.  He has had his lawyer send my lawyer letters saying I did things that I did not.  So I could see him someday 'accidentally' giving our child something he's allergic to, and then being really upset later and convincing everyone it was an accident.  Maybe my mind is running away, but it's a possibility.  He generally is overly cautious with the kids, but he does have that tendency to figure out what I care about and try to take it away.  Before we had kids, it would come in the form of canceling things we were going to do.  Now we have kids... .

I don't know how he'll act when he realizes the divorce is just that, a divorce.

So my question to all of you is:  Should I spend the money and bother trying to fight for sole custody and/or ask for some sort of evaluation?  From what I see here, they tend not to make a diff and sometimes don't show what you wanted them to, even in extreme cases.  It's not like it's a blood test that will show a level of mental illness; they ask a bunch of questions and if he's in a good mood, he'll just snow them completely.  But I don't want to look back and wish I'd done something different.  I don't want to wimp out on my kids.

[motherof1yearold]

Even if you got the eval. and it showed BPD, that doesn't automatically means he has no parenting rights. And as for snowing them, I asked this very question to my attorneys. My ex has psychopathic traits, as well as BPD/NPD. I was sure he would snow the test . My attorneys assured me that the way it is set up, no one can fake through it. The reason why, is because they ask the same question multiple times during the course of the test, but worded differently. So basically, it would show 'deceit' on the results.

In the end, I actually mediated, so I didn't get the test on him :/

There have been other members on the boards who have had their exs evaluated and had them show BPD on results. It does not necessarily have a huge bearing on parenting matters.

[david]

"He has the kids every other weekend for one night"  That comes out to 24 nights a year. In ten years that comes out to seeing the kids less than one year (240 nights) in ten years. 

It really depends on what you believe he would do during that time. Will he endanger either kid physically. If not, than I don't think the courts will take that time away.

[Free One]

This is hard because you have legitimate fears of him and it is hard to sort out what you are scared he can do vs what he actually will do. I know for me it has all blurred together to the point I can honestly say I don't know what ex is capable of any longer.

Unfortunately, I think without any real hard evidence that the kids are in jeopardy, 1 night every other weekend is good. Is it possible for you to ask for joint physical (based on that visitation schedule), but sole legal since they are with you most of the time? You might justify this if you can prove communication between you is difficult and would hinder day-to-day decisions about the kids.

I have a friend who's ex threatened her and she got a restraining order. During the divorce, he violated it. They both had psych evals, costing around $3,000 and the result? The psych said he didn't think the husband was violent. My point? It can be expensive and does not tell the whole story. She did end up with sole legal and joint custody, but more based on the threats, the restraining order and his violation of it. You may reconsider a restraining order if he crosses the boundaries in any way, shape or form. F

Otherwise, my advice is take the 1 night every other weekend, but be prepared this may not be the end of the fight. Document everything, and be ready to go back to court if necessary.

[Matt]

A few comments... . first about psych evals... .

I filed a motion for a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist appointed by the court.  $5,000 - I paid but got back half in the settlement so it cost each of us $2,500.  He administered psych evals which cost each of us $500.

The key is objective psych evals - not interviews where a clever person can fool the professional.  Objective psych evals will not only identify BPD but other stuff too, and then it's on the record.

Is it worth the money?  I can't say for sure, but I'm glad I did it, because now it's not just my opinion, it's (more or less) an objective fact that my ex has a serious problem - she was diagnosed with "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD - and that she has not gotten the required treatment.  The psychologist recommended psychotherapy and the judge put that in the court order, but my ex hasn't complied, so if we ever went back to court over custody it would be easy to connect her behavior with her decision not to get the required treatment.

If you go that path, I'd suggest:

* Specify objective psych evals

* Ask for both parents to be evaluated by the same method

* Ask that both parents get the results from both psych evals

* Specify that neither parent discuss the results with the kids before they are 15 or so

Then when you have the results, research the long-term impact of the problem - BPD or whatever - on kids who are raised with someone who has that problem, and argue that the kids will be at higher risk if they spend too much time with that parent, based on scholarly research.

But... . as you move along, be open to offers of settlement from the other side.  Most cases are resolved without going to trial, but don't be in a hurry to settle without getting all the key information on the table.  Let the other side know that you have big concerns about these issues - you're not making accusations to "win" the fight, you're getting all the information out on the table so the court can make the best decision as to what's in the kids' interests.  Only settle when the other side makes an offer that you believe is in the kids' best interest.

[ForeverDad]

Sometimes commented here... . Those behaving poorly seldom get consequences and those behaving properly seldom get credit. :'(

You can ask for sole custody, a good reason to ask for sole custody is to give examples how the other parent is unwilling to share the childrent or cooperate with you in parenting.  There's no harm in asking for what you feel is right, the worst the court will do is to decline to go that far.

However, you can also work with a second-best arrangement that is different in name but effectively works out to the same.  That's you having decision making or tie breaker status.  Yes, it may have to be subject to conditions, such as ex being able to contest your decisions with a parenting counselor or in court.

Joint custody alone isn't enough.  Since we can't reason with our ex-spouses, we can't always go running to court, it takes far too long to get some sort of possible action and the expense is ridiculous.  For example, something happened in January last year where ex did things that impacted my parenting.  After another couple incidents I filed for Modification of Parenting Time last July.  A year later and we still haven't had our hearing for testimony yet despite my lawyer saying a Modification case should be simple.   Fortunately, it's coming up soon.

Having joint custody but with decision making or tie breaker status would let us get reasonable parenting accomplished while still giving the other parent the ability to save face and not 'lose' custody.  It's not optimal, but it is a practical alternative, especially when you consider the fact that most judges are reluctant to grant sole custody to one parent except in extreme cases (abuse, neglect, endangerment).

[livednlearned]

In my situation, we mediated a temporary custody order. In mediation, we settled visitation and primary physical custody, and then one of the items said that the parties do not agree on joint legal custody and wish for the courts to determine the matter.

So you can say you don't agree, and then it's up to you to move it forward at a later date. Meaning, you will have joint legal custody until you decide it's the right time to file a motion for sole legal.

Sole legal custody just means that you have full decision-making authority for medical and educational decisions. Unfortunately, you'll probably need to build some evidence around those kinds of situations -- of him being difficult, or obstructing, or doing something that is detrimental to your kids -- before you can really argue for sole legal custody.

No need to wimp out. Stick to what you believe. It will just be a piece that you need to pick up and deal with later, which is what I did. I waited until I had a better than good chance, and was able to get sole legal custody. But it says right there in my first consent order that I disagreed to joint legal.

[david]

livednlearned makes a really good point. I remember many saying here a while back , "give someone with BPD enough rope and they will use it." Document, document, document. Eventually you will have enough to show the courts this is an ongoing problem/concern and you can show the proof. I only communicate through emails with xBPDw. When she sends one of these gems it makes me smile because she is only helping my case. I recently talked to my atty and I gave him a years worth of proof. It was about an inch and a half thick of emails. All the ones that pertained to each other were stacked with a brief header page. Each header spelled all the details in a concise manner. It took my atty about 35 minutes to quickly go through it. He said I was extremely prepared and I should not have any problem getting the judge to adjust our custody order. I don't want to get into details just in case x is reading these.

[thinkingthinking]

Like you, Momtara, I have left out any kind of psych evaluation or other information from the divorce proceedings, even though my husband has already been diagnosed.  So much of our marriage has been unpredicatable and a "wild card" that it just felt like it might send him over the edge.  In addition, I have found that not everyone is truly educated enough about BPD. 

Does your state differentiate between joint custody and physical care?  Our agreement states that we have joint custody, but that I have primary physical custody.  This means that he is supposed to have equal decision-making about religion, education, etc, but that her primary residence is with me.  He really has never done a lot with regards to planning their activities, and I don't anticipate that he is going to start now.

Even when we decide on divorce, we continue to play this game of "caution".

[livednlearned]

8 out of 10 lawyers I talked to said not to bother trying for sole custody or a psych eval. 

How many of these Ls have experience with BPD?

[Matt]

8 out of 10 lawyers I talked to said not to bother trying for sole custody or a psych eval.  

How many of these Ls have experience with BPD?

What did the other 2 say?

Did those 8 tell you why you shouldn't get psych evals?

My first attorney seemed very smart and professional, and came with a recommendation from someone I trusted.  Great bedside manner - I was sure he was a good attorney.

But he never offered me a plan to achieve my objectives, and spent more time talking me into lowering my expectations than he did taking initiative to accomplish anything.  I repeatedly told him that our marriage counselor - chosen by my wife - had told me very clearly that she believed my wife had BPD, and I had shared with him what I had learned about BPD.  (He kept referring to it as "bipolar", no matter how many times I corrected him.)  He told me he had experience in cases like this, but looking back I'm sure he didn't.  All the options open to us - depositions, custody evaluation, psych evals - he never told me about - I learned about those from my friends here.

I finally took the advice of others here and fired him.  To find his replacement, I talked by phone with several attorneys, and asked each if they had experience with BPD.  Usually they mumbled or avoided a direct answer.  One said, "You mean Borderline Personality Disorder?" - I hired her.

Big change - she immediately filed motions for a CE and depositions, and to get a trial date set.  Stuff started happening.  I'm still kicking myself for staying with the other guy too long.

Maybe there are good reasons not to go for primary custody and not to get psych evals.  Or maybe 8 out of 10 attorneys are just losers.

[momtara]

The other two seemed to want my money.  One told me my husband could kill our kids, and I was being dumb by not begging everyone in my family for money to go to court.  He also got offended when I asked if he takes credit cards.  I asked a judge I know about him, and she described him as a "clown."

The other one seemed ok but wanted me to get into court right away.  She works for a big firm, and her own boss (a partner in the firm) told me in a different consultation that a psych eval probably wouldn't help me.  So... . I dunno.

That said, sometimes it's worth it to fight.

That said (2), if I used up all my money too soon, my kids and I would be homeless and then I'm really in a position to lose custody.  At least now I am providing a steady home.

The lawyer I ultimately went with has a good combo of tough but not just jumping in.  She says she has had clients with BPD.

I think maybe I should have a talk with her, just to be sure I'm doing the right thing. 

I honestly think that if I fought really really hard, he'd still get some unsupervised visitation, probably at least what we have now. 

[momtara]

Matt, what kind of custody did you end up with?  (I'm sure you have written it a million times, but.)

[Matt]

Matt, what kind of custody did you end up with?  (I'm sure you have written it a million times, but.)

I settled, one day before the trial, for 50/50.  My first attorney had made some big mistakes, and there are a lot of things I know now that I didn't then - several things I could have done better.

My lawyer told me, "If you settle for 50/50, and we get the judge to put stuff into the court order related to the other party's diagnosis, you'll probably end up with de facto primary custody anyway."  And that's what has happened.  The court ordered my wife to get psychotherapy, but she hasn't done that, and in fact she doesn't really want the kids half the time - she's constantly coming up with reasons they should stay more with me, and I always agree if I can.  So the reality has turned out to be more like 75/25, and the kids are both doing very well.

Just to show how screwed up I was earlier, I initially agreed to EOW - I would only have the kids 2 nights out of 14.  I had no attorney at that point, and I'm capable of reading and understanding stuff, but I was so upset I just signed it.  Later I denied having agreed to that, and I wasn't lying - I really didn't think I had agreed to that, til I was showed the document I had signed.

I took the position that I had signed that before knowing about BPD, which was true, and so I had new information and no longer believed EOW was in the kids' best interest.  My wife said I was lying - she said our marriage counselor had not told me she probably had BPD - so we got the marriage counselor on the phone with both attorneys, and the MC confirmed what I had said - I was telling the truth, there was new information, so my prior agreement wasn't valid.

But I'm not recommending that path - much smarter to get a lawyer involved early, and never sign anything til you're 100% sure it's best.