Status of "friendship" with ex

[Rose Tiger]

I found a service, they had a flier in the mail.  Their motto is they will do anything you need.  I had them pull up a dead tree and replant a new one.  Yay.  I got triple A, if I ever have car trouble, that's who I call.  Do you have a back up list for stuff like that?

[MaybeSo]

You are cracking me up!  I  have a handyman, I geuss I just need a cabana- boy!   

[Rose Tiger]

Or Fabio.    Listen, you know that as you get healthier, the less satisfying the r/s lite will be.  We settle like water to our own level.  That's why his shenanigans aren't tearing you apart anymore.  You got healthier and you see his illness more clearly.  But you settled into being ok with less.  It takes less effort and risk to have r/s lite versus r/s none.  But when you are in r/s lite you are giving up the possibiliity of r/s deeply satisfying. 

[patientandclear]

For what it's worth, I am finding myself in a similar place, valuing who my ex is, exactly as he is, & wondering if that isn't more than I'm going to have in a more conventional r/s with someone else. For me, I think, no sex unless I can come to terms with having him disappear after, and I am not there yet. But I get more out of this r/s than I can imagine with so many of the non-BPD men I know who are possible dates or even partners.

[Grey Kitty]

Maybeso, I've got a book recommendation for you. Right now I'm reading "The Ethical Slut" which is subtitled as a practical guide to polyamory and open relationships. I'm reading it because I am in an open relationship and trying to figure out what things will be working for me.

You have very clearly stated that you aren't interested in a open relationship for yourself (or your r/s partner), and I do respect that; I do not suggest this with any agenda of convincing you otherwise. If you pick the book up, feel free to skip over bits or read much in this book about open relationships as an academic exercise. I've also found the book has good relationship tools, ones that work well whether you have more people in your r/s or not.

The part that makes me think of you is that in exploring relationships that are more than two people, the authors are forced to look outside of the culturally normal model for what a relationship is. I am finding a wonderful sense of freedom and opportunity in reading about the many possibilities for satisfying relationships that look different from a happily-ever-after marriage with 2.3 children, a dog, and a house in the suburbs where the two-car garage is full of enough crap that neither car is parked there.

You have clearly accepted that that sort of relationship is not possible for your ex, and not what you want today either. Is this a good time for you to explore what other models of a relationship would suit you? There could well be some that you've never thought of.

[Rose Tiger]

See?  Easy as pie.

How are you?

Ex

Hi Ex,

This is too hard on me to chat with you, still have feelings for you!  Which can’t go anywhere.  So frustrating.

Take good care,  big hug!

Rose Tiger


I'm sorry!  I did not mean to be hard on you.  Take care!

Hugs,

Ex

And there you go, a tragic, yet strangely uneventful ending.  :shrug

[MaybeSo]

Maybeso, I've got a book recommendation for you. Right now I'm reading "The Ethical Slut" which is subtitled as a practical guide to polyamory and open relationships.

Okay so that has to be one of the all time great titles ever! I will check it out, I am always open to learning about how others are doing things.

Maybe when I learn more about it I could see a possible alternative then I've not yet considered.

One of the things that I always wonder about, and have a bias about ... . is that, I'm uncertain if the complexities of an open relationship would really work with a pw a PD or a person who is addicted?

Sex isn't really the issue with my ex, as I see it.

It's his addiction to doing the idealization/devaluation thing, and all that goes with it... . it just happens to involve either sex or romance, but it's the feeling that he has finally met 'the one' as compared to all the other r/s that have let him down... . that he is addicted to, it's the peak experience of a fantasy r/s.

If we have an open relationship and he's still doing that stuff... . I don't see how does that solves anything?

I know one woman who practiced palamory with her husband; they were friends with the people they had extra martital relations with.  There was a lot of transparency. There we certain rules and guidelines they followed.  People weren't cultivating secrecy, drama, type scenarios. They were respectful of all involved.

If my EX can't establish a heated connection by using the rules he usually plays by... . which is that everyone is kind of sort of in the dark, there are secrets, the new woman is idealized and seen as a rescuer while the old woman is devalued and seen as the persecutor,  the new woman plays the role of rescuing him from the old woman and  is made to feel super special and put on a pedestal (for a short time anyway) so that they can have a peak experience together (I've never felt this way before, you understand me like NO other, my gf is so mean to me or isn't this enough or that enough)... . and their connection is forged through the naughtiness of having sex or romance when they really ought not to at the expense of someone else (because there's the shadow of someone else still in the picture)... . if all that drama, intrigue and  naughtiness is done away with... .

Then why would he want to have an open relationship at all?  If it's just  that we are all friends and everyone is transparent and respectful... .

Where's the fun in that?  

We have just eliminated all the key things about his 'straying' that make it fun for him in the first place and feed his addiction (in my humble opinion).

I suspect if we ever DID try to have an open relationship with others... . he would eventually cheat on ALL OF US... . because that's were the juice is!

Oh, and while he does stray... . he would NOT enjoy one bit if I STRAYED.  In his world, he does this straying thing... . and I remain faithful. If I'm going out and finding a lover too... . oh boy... . I don't think he would like that one little bit. That's probably one of the main reasons why when I tell him he probably should find a woman who wants an open r/s with him... . he always balks and says no way.

[Cumulus]

This thread just keeps getting more interesting. I probably disconnected with my husband about twenty years before the marriage ended. That means he had fifteen years to yank my chain, make me cry and scurry around to do his bidding. I couldn't do that any longer but for whatever reason didn't want to leave the marriage. So I disconnected. Just like you, no great joy, no great sorrow. Just doing life. Me doing mine with my hobbies and friends, he doing his with his other women (unknown to me except one instance). There was no being together, there was no communication, it was at the most just helping each other with the tasks of daily living. ( yes, I have a handyman now too! ). So when the last crisis occurred there was nothing holding us together, I made him leave.

Now this is where my life began to be returned to me in bits and pieces. Reading books and articles, posting here. I found I had hidden my emotions, locked them safely away from him but also locked them away from myself. I am beginning to find them and it is wonderful, thrilling, overwhelming and frightening and I wouldn't give up a minute of it at this point. This is me who was lost.

Because I really connect with your story I wondered if this is where you are at now too.

[seeking balance]

If we have an open relationship and he's still doing that stuff... . I don't see how does that solves anything?

His stuff is who he is - you have said that yourself, his coping mechanism that works for him.

Isn't the purpose to redefine so you can have the relationship in a way that works for you both?

This is kinda radical acceptance of the situation, right?

[MaybeSo]

But I get more out of this r/s than I can imagine with so many of the non-BPD men I know who are possible dates or even partners

.

I often feel this way, too. At other times, certainly right at the apex of a crappy event with my ex... . all I am thinking is... . gosh, get the hell away from this guy, he's such a loser... . move on... . you can find someone so much better... . this is a blessing... . say bye bye for good and be free... . free... . free!

Then after a day or two... . it's like.  Hmmm.  He DOES offer a lot of things that I really do appreciate and enjoy. And, I know him, the good the bad and the ugly. At least I know him.

I'm 50. I was married for over six years. I've dated. In my 50 years... . I've not had some of the good things with "non" men, that I've experienced with my ex. Conversely, the 'non' men I've been with have NOT been nearly as much work nor as challenging, though I can't say I was content... . I obviously got a divorce from my husband, so that was not working for me, either. He is far from BPD and he certainly can commit.  But I'm not WITH him. I have managed to manifest something quite different in my life for the last 8 years.  

So, this is what I need to really figure out once an for all.

Why do I feel I value this r/s?

Is it because I am damaged from my very similar come and go r/s with my father, so much so that my ability to really gauge what is good is way way off?

Am I just jaded?

Is it just my own self fulfilling prophesy, I believe the next r/s won't offer anything better, so... . I create what I believe.

Is it because I have my own attachment issues and can only handle or feel comfortable with a person who has similar attachment issues?

Is it because I have become numb to behaviors over the years that I use to not find acceptable (like what Cumulus is wondering about in her post)

Is it because I've really grown and let go of childhood fantasies and I just see things more realistic in general today and that's a good thing?

Is it because my ex is so manipulative that he still gets to me with all his repeated epiphanies and work in therapy?

Is it because his work in therapy truly is compelling and while he's certainly damaged, so is everyone on some level, and at least he's got a lot of really good qualities to offer AND he's in therapy.

Is it smart to know and accept that just finding (eventually) another man doesn't mean THAT r/s won't have problems, too... . maybe without nearly as many of the things I like that my ex offers?

Is it even ethical to keep seeing a man who I know has a desperate fear of being alone and THAT's what keeps him always coming back and staying tied to me?

These are really hard questions that I think about a lot, and I honestly don't have the answers to them!  I hope someday soon, I will, but I just don't right now. I just don't know.  

Quote from: MaybeSo on Today at 03:02:31 PM

If we have an open relationship and he's still doing that stuff... . I don't see how does that solves anything?



His stuff is who he is - you have said that yourself, his coping mechanism that works for him.

Isn't the purpose to redefine so you can have the relationship in a way that works for you both?

I guess what I'm saying is... . I think he's too emotionally immature to be in an open r/s.  I think he'd behave poorly and muck it all up.  I think his boundaries would be messy... . I think he wouldn't hold agreements, I think he would create drama and instigate.   Does that make since?  It's hard enough to cope with that when it's just me and him... . add more people who are suppose to be intimates... . and I see a Cluster F  of gymormous poportions.  :)o you know what I mean?  Again, I may be wrong... . but I think you have to be pretty grown -up and mature to handle an open r/s.

[seeking balance]

I guess what I'm saying is... . I think he's too emotionally immature to be in an open r/s.  I think he'd behave poorly and muck it all up.  I think his boundaries would be messy... . I think he wouldn't hold agreements, I think he would create drama and instigate.   Does that make since?  It's hard enough to cope with that when it's just me and him... . add more people who are suppose to be intimates... . and I see a Cluster F  of gymormous poportions.  :)o you know what I mean?  Again, I may be wrong... . but I think you have to be pretty grown -up and mature to handle an open r/s.

I dunno - your situation and the open situation is all theory for me.

It sounds like you are doing a version of this already though if we get really honest... . I mean you and he get close, intimate - he finds another, ends with you - goes with her until done, then comes back to you.

The only difference with open seems to be no shame for him with it... . and you don't have to go through the mental gymnastics of do I end it, wait, etc... . it accepts the situation as it is.  This way you can be open to date too.

Everyone settles to some degree - if this is what you want, why not just own it and accept it since it is what you are doing anyways?  As far as the drama, you are an expert in not getting triangulated and BPD communication, I don't see how it will be much different really.

[MaybeSo]

I dunno - your situation and the open situation is all theory for me.

It sounds like you are doing a version of this already though if we get really honest... . I mean you and he get close, intimate - he finds another, ends with you - goes with her until done, then comes back to you.

The only difference with open seems to be no shame for him with it... . and you don't have to go through the mental gymnastics of do I end it, wait, etc... . it accepts the situation as it is.  This way you can be open to date too.

Everyone settles to some degree - if this is what you want, why not just own it and accept it since it is what you are doing anyways?  As far as the drama, you are an expert in not getting triangulated and BPD communication, I don't see how it will be much different really.

I guess the way you describe it here... . sort of the defacto of what has been going on, anyway... . could work if I were willing to sign on to it... . with just more acceptance... . no fooling ourselves that this time he's trying to be a good boy and not stray.  Just total acceptance that he has his moments that involve others and then he is disappointed and comes back.  I suppose that could work in theory.

If it meant a complicated relationship that involved transparency with others... . which I think some couples get involved in... . where lets say two couples are all friends and they are lovers and live together etc., while respecting their primary marriage vows ... . I think that would be WAY WAY WAY too complicated for us. He would eventually be trying to convince the other spouse that what they have is super special and they should run away together and have a peak experience on their own.   LOL  

[seeking balance]

He would eventually be trying to convince the other spouse that what they have is super special and they should run away together and have a peak experience on their own.   LOL  

but of course - that is just par for the course!

[Grey Kitty]

Maybeso, I really was recommending the book from the perspective of the other things it offered Glad you like the title at least!

I believe your skepticism about how a pwBPD would handle an open r/s is justified--When you add more people to a r/s, it requires more and better communications, and when somebody in it starts throwing tantrums, it does become a "Cluster F of gynormous proportions" much faster than a r/s with only two people   I believe I said as much somewhere in a thread on the dating board about open r/s

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=181763.0

I'd also agree that YOUR ex doesn't sound like he would be capable or interested in the sort of r/s you describe your friend having, with openness, transparency, and friendship all around. Your description of him sounds like somebody who could strive for serial monogamy, and is struggling to avoid cheating, at least by a technicality.

Perhaps some other options will appeal to you when you read the Ethical Slut.

So, this is what I need to really figure out once an for all.

Why do I feel I value this r/s?

<snip, snip: many detailed self-doubting questions>

These are really hard questions that I think about a lot, and I honestly don't have the answers to them!  I hope someday soon, I will, but I just don't right now. I just don't know.  

All of those questions you listed fit the category of "What is wrong with my choice to value this r/s?"

Earlier in this thread you mentioned things you do value in this r/s.

The bad parts are pretty clear too, especially given that he's once again decided to chase after a new lover for a while.

Trying to weigh the two against each other ... . and also deciding what to do when the balance changes... . it sounds like sex isn't on the "good" side of the balance anymore... . those jobs are tougher.

My question for you: Does your heart disagree with your mind about which way the balance is tipping?

 I've been trying to figure out similar things in my r/s with my ?lover?; Our status has been ambiguous for months, and I value some things in the r/s, but don't like some of the limits of her emotional capacity. I am slowly preparing myself to remove the ambiguity, which may well end the r/s for me.

[rosannadanna]

I suspect if we ever DID try to have an open relationship with others... . he would eventually cheat on ALL OF US... . because that's were the juice is!

You are hilarious!  I am loving your post b/c this is exactly where I am.  The similarities with our guys and current situations are spooky, but comforting in that I am not alone.  You probably don't remember, but I PM'ed  you several months ago when I was getting "vibes" after he took a weekend trip with a female friend.  In my case, he confessed to a "hookup" that weekend that I could get past b/c it really was just sex.  But he also confirmed what I had said to him from the beginning of this last re-engagement period, which was that he had unfinished business with a girl he dated during our NC period.  It wasn't suprising to me and I told him I was getting off the triangle and for him to contact me when he wanted to be with me exclusively.  I am disappointed, but I know him and this is what he does.  He knows this is what he does, always searching for the "next best mommy".  He did alot of inner work after his father died and his divorce about 3 years before I met him and in the three years I have known him, he did some amazing work with his PTSD symptoms and "dad" work.  After we went NC 3/12, he started his "mom" work, but got side-tracked with a girl who was compellingly broken.  So been NC for about 2 months now and pondering the exact questions that you are.

For me, I know I can't have an open relationship.   My dude tends to have several "mommys" in rotation that give emotional support, but they are just friends.  This last go round we had detailed discussions about how I accept that he has female friends, but I am triggered and a bit edgy that he will start to triangulate based on past history.  We discussed the dangers of spending alone time with other females b/c of his tendency (and lots of other people) to make new female the rescuer to old female's persecutor.  He was in agreement and ultimately he told the truth, I stuck to my boundary and he lost my goodies.

Now that I know myself, I try to honor my boundaries and have interactions with people that are constructive, productive, and non-painful.  I try to be in the moment as much as possible.  I try not to stress about it too much.

I guess my greatest fear is growing old alone... .

[Rose Tiger]

So... . no one is talking about STDs, kind of playing russian roulette!

[sm15000]

My ex is not a rager, he is not a drug user, he is not overtly mean, he has never been physically violent or aggressive.  We have that 'easy commraderie' that RoseTiger mentions. He has done tons of work, the r/s I have with him is much more even keel and comfortable than it ever was. He is a professional, makes good money, is fun to be around, the sex has always been natural and good, he is a normal person when he's not in a crappy mood swing. He does a lot of nice things for me. He helps me a lot with practical matters.

MaybeSo,

I can identify with a lot you've said on the thread. . .and it gives me a glimpse into the future if ever my ex and I got into contact again - which may not be totally off the cards, mainly because his good side is great and something I have missed very much since we've been apart.

I'm nearly 49, my ex is nearly 55 now. . .we sound pretty much like cut-outs of yourself and your SO.  I haven't been involved with anybody since the break-up and like you I don't easily find men I'm attracted to.  I joined a dating site for about 2 months - that was enough for me    My ex seeks other women for much the same reasons I believe - the thrill, chase, to self-soothe and boost his ego.  He hasn't done the intense work on himself with any therapy so its highly unlikely this is never going to change.

I understand the sadness your latest 'issue' must have caused and I know there was a paper-thin line with the truth. . .but he did do it - he must be cognizant of your boundary and will know you will enforce it. . .and by the seem of it, it does matter to him.   I can't see my ex having anywhere near that amount of honesty, he couldn't stand the shame.  

If you can manage the times where he is 'breaking away' but he is at least not doing it behind your back perhaps with all you value about the r/s it can be worthwhile. . .until maybe someday someone does come across your path that you are interested in yourself. . .it is not set in stone that this is how it will be forever. . .live it for now  

Oh, PS - I too think the open r/s would be a disaster. . .I think that's the hypocrisy in them you just have to radically accept

[rosannadanna]

Rose Tiger,

I have definitely thought about STD's this go round b/c he has actually admitted to sex with two other women (hookup and girl he formally dated during last NC period) besides me while we were sexual.

I will always hold to my boundary that I will exit if he is having sex with or wants to have sex with someone else.  Because he decided to have sex, then tell me, I will assume that is his MO for the future if we are ever sexual again.  I think he will be honest with me, but probably after he has done it.  Therefore, I will be asking him to wear a condom in the future (if there is a future).

[MaybeSo]

Sm15000,

Thanks for you post, Your take on it is is where I am at right now. Live my life, stay open, if there are aspects to maintaining contact with my ex that at worthwhile, fine, within safe limits (I take distance if he's with another)... . meanwhile I may meet someone great in an organic manner sometime down the road.

As for STDs, yea... . that is one of the main reason for the agreement of NO unknown overlapping sexual activity.

I'm not seeing him right now and certainly no more sex for the foreseeable future and not without a clean bill of health and normal precautions.

[Rose Tiger]

Ex and I did the dating thing with sleepovers for a year or so.  It got comfortable settling for a 5% husband.  My T is what got me motivated.  Having a 5% husband with no stability.  It's like being the mistress.  It was hard to lose that last 5% and I kept thinking he would balk and want me back 100%, to a real marriage.  Uh uh.  That is the trigger that hurts so bad, the abandonment he did/does to me.  The last email I sent, I still have feelings, this is difficult, I'm frustrated, he didn't answer back, I have feelings too.  Ouch.  He doesn't have feelings towards me.  While he was out working in that fire, I was so worried about him.  He never feels that way towards me.

One of his last emails he said that his older daughter is now living with her boyfriend.  He said, although I shouldn't, I still pay for her groceries because it's the only control I have with her.

That keeps ruminating with me.  Why does he feel the need to control his older daughter?  Why not put money in a bank account for her and give her a debit card.  Because that represents 'love' and 'relationship' with her.  That's how he controlled me during the marriage was money.  When they lived here, older daughter would bring receipts to him and he would reimburse her, that was the relationship.  That's what his rich doctor dad did to his mother.  There is no 'love' only you will do as I say or you don't 'get'.  It takes stepping away to see all this.  How huge a hold this was for me with him, the enticement of financial security.

It's easy to settle for 5% versus 0%.  But this is crumbs.  You deserve so much more and something so much better than this.  All of you that have posted do, too.

[MaybeSo]

Thank you for sharing that RT.

It is weird that these days, I don't see those behaviors as "no love, just control" I  see it as a person that got control all mixed up with basic human love and dependency needs.  :)oesn't make it right for us,  and we don't have to tolerate it, true. But I don't see it as not having any love. Most of us love in broken ways, in some manner. I agree, I wouldn't want to feel financially dependent upon a person who has mixed up love and control like that... . but I still think there is some love there.

I always think about the phrase " I deserve more ".

There is a song I like by Dydo (?) I think... . she sings

"if my life is for rent, and I don't learn to buy... . I deserve nothing more than I get, cause nothing

I have is truly mine"

I like the pull to ownership in those lyrics.

When I look around at whatever I have or don't have, i see that this iswhat I have created, this

is what I have manifested both the good and the bad.

The word "deserve" is so easy to say... . I deserve xyz

Do I?

Or do we create our own realities for our own, usually very complex,  reasons?

[Free One]

On some level I just don't even feel like I have to make any decisions right now.  There is a part of me that is open to something healthier, but I don't feel like going out and 'looking' for it.  I don't know.

You don't have to make a decision now. This doesn't need to be an urgent matter. Maybe "healthier" doesn't have to include a r/s.

I'm sorry I didn't have time to thoroughly read all posts, but why do you still feel you need ex in your life?

[LetItBe]

That is a great article, FreeOne.  Thanks for sharing.

[Grey Kitty]

The word "deserve" is so easy to say... . I deserve xyz

Do I?

Or do we create our own realities for our own, usually very complex,  reasons?

I'm personally suspicious of the word "deserve." It isn't an active word. It smells of entitlement, and of hoping that others will provide what you "deserve" or that you "deserve" a tasty desert, but aren't including how it will appear on your hips or gut later.

Saying "I am worth more than X" sounds better to me than "I deserve Y"

I think that what you choose or what you create is a lot more important than what you deserve!

[Rose Tiger]

Tomato toematoe.    Y'all know what I meant.  Your inner child wants more.  Takes some stretching.  Takes some moving out of a comfort zone.  Maturity is marked by self denial of short term gratification and self control.  

[patientandclear]

I dunno, guys. Maybe this is highly situational and due to the fact that I'm momentarily in a good place with my ex. But I am not sure the formulaic "this person hurt me so I must dispense with them" rule is always necessary. I took nonGF's excellent advice on another thread & read a Tara Brach article on radical acceptance last night. In the context of a r/s with another human being, I'm not sure that radical acceptance means "accept that this other person inevitably hurts me."  I think it may be more "accept that this other person is himself/herself & will likely act similarly to how she/he has previously acted. Now. Is that something I want without introducing a malignant, & somewhat controlling, hope of transformation to make him/her more convenient for me? Because if so, I can adjust my expectations to match what this person can give. Hurt comes from needing or expecting things to be other than as they are."

MaybeSo, you've written to me before about how, if someone repeatedly hits you, as if they have a physical Tourette's-like impulse, it's your responsibility to protect yourself from being hit, & to recognize that this is a person who hits. But you've pointed put that this can be accomplished in various ways -- sure, you can leave the scene & never see the person again.  But you can also just step out of reach of their hitting, & stick around.  I think this is wise, dialectical , complex thinking.

It is interesting, challenging & scary to acknowledge that there can be much of value in these relationships & still the possibility, even probability, of growth for both people.   I don't see it as necessary to shut that door in order to prevent you from being hit.  Seems like this could be more a question of fine-tuning what you expect & fully absorbing your knowledge of what he does.  Sounds like this time you were wondering at some level if your new approach (giving him complete freedom, not trying to control or guide his actions) might shift his behavior.  Now you know that even that isn't necessarily going to happen. I don't think that means the end of the road. It's just more data about what to expect in the r/s.

[MaybeSo]

P&C ,

Totally agree.

I do think there are a variety of ways to radically accept and with that reality, take care of yourself.

I do think I have done that this last 9 months by having this time with ex; I really exercised my self-care, self-focus muscles while accepting who he is. It would be disingenuous to imply I haven't got a lot out of this, on many levels.

I do wonder, though, if I've plumbed about as much as I can from this.

It is unclear if there is more to learn/gain from continuing with this anymore. To be clear I'm not

seeing him right now, anyway. But, he will likely want to resume some kind of connection in due

time, even if only friendship (no physical intimacy).

It remains to be seen if that is a good idea for me or not.

As mentioned, I got quite the mea culpa from him last Sunday. With a firm resolution that his

goal is a relationship with himself as his number one priority; and to quit looking for me or any

woman to do that for him. I replied with some supportive words.

Haven't heard a peep from him since.

He doesn't do "alone" well. It's the whole crux of his issue.

It's very difficult for me to believe he is forging ahead alone. I assume he is staying in therapy,

but likely is spending all his free time with new love interest. Which to me, means he is not really

working on his stated goals at all, it's just more of the same old spin.

If this is the case, I don't think there's much more to plumb here. I use to have a big charge

around this pattern... . today it is just annoying and inconvenient... . and his pattern is boring to me.

If he is hanging out with this woman, he is just an alcoholic, purporting to be in AA, but hanging

out at the bar evenings and weekends. Boring.

I'm not sure there's anything very deep or growthful of interest going on, if that's what's

happening here.

I need something more growthful than this to keep my chips in the game.

If he's plowing through some alone time, I give him credit... . THAT would be very difficult for him and would be growthful... . but  I suspect that's not the case.

[seeking balance]

Maturity is marked by self denial of short term gratification and self control.  

Hey Rose Tiger - This is directly from Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck - a whole section on delaying gratification as a sign of emotional maturity and how to teach this to children and how children learn this from watching.

[patientandclear]

MaybeSo--totally get that. Including the irony that he could write you about how he knows he needs to forge on alone, yet default to a (momentarily)  easy companionship. When I told my ex we should wait to try again as sexual/romantic partners until he gained some insight into why a momentary bad feeling caused him to end the r/s, & he agreed he should try to learn to be alone ... . it really sucked when he immediately turned to another woman rather than walk that much harder alone path.

I hear you that growth on his part may be necessary for this not to stagnate & become boring. The good news is -- it will probably become clear if he is up for that, or not, without you having to do anything.

[MaybeSo]

Big fan of Scott Pecks.

I feel pretty adept at delayed gratification; I have a lot of things in my life that required a lot of delayed gratification.

In fact, my capacity to delay gratification works against me, sometimes.

I suspect I may be able to delay gratification to an extent that isn't always in my best interest.