Status of "friendship" with ex

[Rose Tiger]

"I suspect I may be able to delay gratification to an extent that isn't always in my best interest."

How so?  I think maybe I did this in a way with unsafe people, waiting patiently for a return to better treatment. 

I think as we get healthier, we want to surround ourselves with healthier people.  I have a friend since school days, she comes to town once a year to visit her parents.  We usually do lunch or something.  For some reason, I didn't want to see her but felt obligated.  After our visit, I just felt this cloud over me, something about her just doesn't jive with me anymore.  I can't put my finger on it but I no longer enjoy being around her.  Same with work, people are used to treating me as a doormat, something in me can't abide with it anymore and I've started getting assertive.  The Ex won't work on his stuff, his motto is, yes I am broken but nobodies perfect.  So the healthier I get, the more I don't want to reconcile with him or be around him.  He is the road more travelled.

I read something last night, been ruiminating on it.    It was something about these experiences with a BPD partner, opens us to be more loving, that it increases our capacity to love others.  I know that is a total tangent, thinking about do I love people more now and thinking well, some people I love less, the users, the abandoners, the abusers.  But others, the kinder ones, like my friend that adores dogs like I do, and my daughter, the coworker at work that I've been chatting with, feeling lots of love towards them.  Oh and I talked to a nice guy in the hot tub at the Y yesterday, kind of bold for Rose Tiger.  I feel lots of compassion for the posters on this site.  I do feel that codependent still in me though because I still need to listen more and talk less.

[MaybeSo]

RT,

Yes, i sometimes delay gratification (meeting my needs) in relationships especially with men, as I have years of practice with my father doing this same thing.

Most of the people I hang out with, I enjoy... . though they are imperfect.

I tend to have a few long term friends, and new ones are added on slowly, over time. Relationships of any importance take me time to cultivate, both friendships and romantic.

If it's not feeling right... . I tend not to cultivate it. I'm pretty cautious / picky / careful / anxious when it comes to people connections.

I grew up around adults that had a lot of lovely qualities and gifts, but were also very complex

people with complex issues.  No drugs/alcohol ... . At least not serious or long term (i think dad and step monster drank too much) but issues. When I was about 10 I saw my first Woody Allen

movie and totally identified with it; anxious, overlyanalytical, neurotics with interesting, somewhat self absorbed lives and interesting gifts to offer the world, too.  It's what my family is like,  it's

the kind of friends I like, it's clearly the kind of man I love, too.

Hmmm.

[arabella]

Just found this thread and... . wow! So much of it resonates with me. Really interesting input all around and I think it's helping me to clarify some things I've been mulling over as well.

MaybeSo - I'll second Grey Kitty's recommendation to read The Ethical Slut. I actually was fairly critical of some aspects of the book, but I do think it offers some insight into possibilities for 'open' relationships. It's an interesting read. Certainly all open r/s are not the same and they do not all involve both parties being non-monogamous, nor do they necessarily have all kinds of complex rules. Just like people, relationships come in all shapes and sizes! I've found that being 'open' actually resulted in more personal growth for my H and I - obviously your milage may vary. For me, it was much as SeekingBalance suggested earlier - a matter of radical acceptance and getting in touch with what really mattered to me and what I valued in my life (and figuring out those things was not as easy as it sounds)!

[Rose Tiger]

"I'm pretty cautious / picky / careful / anxious when it comes to people connections. "

These books might be helpful too... .

Safe People

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310210844/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Boundaries in Dating

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310200342/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How to get a Date Worth Keeping

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310200342/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[MaybeSo]

So, to close this chapter;

I have spoken with my ex.

He sent me some messages regarding the books he is reading and the work he is doing in T, he said that he felt ashamed, that he is sick of his b.s. pattern, that he keeps hurting people, and is throwing himself into attacking this problem like he has never done before.

I called him on the phone, though, and asked why he was sending ME these updates and what his intentions are. eg.,( to my way of thinking... . if he is still seeing the other woman while still sending me updates about his progress with hugs and kisses XXXOO... . he is still overlapping and doing the exact same b.s. he ALWAYS does.)

He said he thinks he needs to learn to be alone and throw himself 100% into tackling his commitment issues.

I asked directly if he was still seeing 'the other woman'.

His answer was 'yes and no'.  (this is more b.s.)

I said this 'non answer' tells me everything I need to know... . and don't call me or bother me anymore until you are ready to make a commitment TO SOMETHING!

He said he understood, and was giving all of this a lot of serious thought, about what we could do to make this work going forward etc., and he knows if he commits to me this time, it's a done deal... .

He is an addict, thinking about getting better, while still using... . and me being involved in any manner right now,  is part of his using.  So I'm not going to be a part of it anymore.

We ended the phone call with him thinking I was waiting for a commitment from him, and he was going to get back to me about his ideas... .

I sent him a letter the next morning that explained I am not waiting for him, I do not trust any promises or commitments he might offer me right now, anyway, he is to please stop contacting me with updates about what he is doing in therapy, to not call me to discuss any issues about any women or his 'issues'  with women or therapy as he has a therapist to do that with, and that I need to move on right now, and that means to stop all contact right now with him.

If he does contact me again it must be a long time from now and

1- only if he is truly single and has been for a long time or

2- only to update me about how he and the kids are doing, friendly stuff etc.

And I wish him all the best on his own journey.


He wrote back and agreed, that he can't trust himself right now and has no business expecting me to trust any promises or commitments he might offer, and he see's that.  He indicates he is doubling up his sessions with his DBT therapist and is going to stop seeing the other therapist (Yeah... . he might as well start by making a commitment to seeing only ONE F-ING therapist at a time... . GOD DANMIT!) ... . and that he is dedicated to fixing this flaw in himself and learning to be at peace with himself.

So, we are now NC.

That is the end of this chapter and this experiment of trying to be just friends (or something) with my ex.

[123Phoebe]

MaybeSo, kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in

I sent him a letter the next morning that explained I am not waiting for him, I do not trust any promises or commitments he might offer me right now, anyway, he is to please stop contacting me with updates about what he is doing in therapy, to not call me to discuss any issues about any women or his 'issues'  with women or therapy as he has a therapist to do that with, and that I need to move on right now, and that means to stop all contact right now with him.

He wrote back and agreed, that he can't trust himself right now and has no business expecting me to trust any promises or commitments he might offer, and he see's that.  He indicates he is doubling up his sessions with his DBT therapist and is going to stop seeing the other therapist (Yeah... . he might as well start by making a commitment to seeing only ONE F-ING therapist at a time... . GOD DANMIT!) ... . and that he is dedicated to fixing this flaw in himself and learning to be at peace with himself.

Not to make light of a serious situation... . this made me chuckle though.

You had just said that he is to please stop contacting you with updates about what he's doing in therapy.  He got around it by contacting and updating you about what he's going to do about therapy and what he will be working on.

Sometimes, it really is all about them... .   Ugh.

[eeyore]

MaybeSo, I am proud of you.  I think this will be so good for YOU.  Surround yourself with healthy.   

[MaybeSo]

MaybeSo, I am proud of you.  I think this will be so good for YOU.  Surround yourself with healthy.

Thank you eeyore, this feels more like me than moving into an open r/s or continuing our non commitment r/s. Honestly, if he were faithful, what we were doing would have been fine for me; and I can see how an open r/s can work for some situations; I just don't think it work for us or would be productive for us due to the nature of our issues. 

Not to make light of a serious situation... . this made me chuckle though.

You had just said that he is to please stop contacting you with updates about what he's doing in therapy.  He got around it by contacting and updating you about what he's going to do about therapy and what he will be working on.

Sometimes, it really is all about them... .  Ugh.

Always... . this is a constant with me and men (starting with  my father who would go on and on and on about himself and still does)... . it has been interesting in the last year in that I will stop his long winded monologues about HIS issues and HIS needs and HIS struggles and cut it short to insert my own needs and wishes. This is a big deal for me, as it does not come natural, but I can see that I am really getting much better at it now.   In this case, my wishes and needs were pretty simple: I need to be in a r/s with a person who can be faithful to me.

[eeyore]

If you know what you need then there is nothing wrong with saying your truth.   I'm rooting for you to be strong and when the time is right to be in a healthy relationship.  I suspect a new thread needs to be started as they usually start locking the threads. 

About the all about them comment... . I'm currently in the dog house because I pointed it out.  After hearing him talk about him I said, "yes I heard what you said, you, you,  you. "  All I can say is that did not go over well.  I clearly wasn't validating. 

[Grey Kitty]

Just want to give you two more   as you sound like you are living your values here!

Your comment how this would be turning into an open r/s... . I definitely see your point. There are good and bad things about open relationships, but one thing I'm *sure* an open r/s won't do is fix the problems that already exist in a closed r/s. With your ex is falling down on the job of having one r/s at a time, he would only do worse if more people are added to the mix!

 This is still a tough choice for you.

[Rose Tiger]

Is that is the pattern, it's all about his angst and not one bit of concern for you, only looking for your support and feedback over his issues?  Is that the old 'comfortable' pattern?

[patientandclear]

MaybeSo,  .

I am certain this man will be back telling you he has met all of these conditions for future intimacy with you.

I don't know if that is good or bad, or if you find it comforting or troubling, to know that will happen.  Because of course the challenge then is, can you possibly believe it, and do you want to open yourself to disappointment if he cannot make good on such aspirations.

He clearly values you to the best of his ability and skills.  It's so unfortunate that those seem so inadequate to the task of cherishing someone as wonderful as you in a way that works for you.

I've learned so much from your story & continue to.  I hope the next little while brings unexpected rewards to you of whatever sort -- I think this would be a mighty good time for some rewards.

[doubleAries]

I've no idea if this was the case here or not, just bringing it up for consideration (I know it's the case for me often, and so I'll put it in terms of myself).

There are times when I am able to articulate my values and boundaries, as you have done here with your ex, then I pull the rug out from under myself with self doubt, wondering if I'm being too demanding, that I'm being unfair cornering someone with "demands" that they are unable to fulfill. So I toss out my own boundaries, revise them down lower and lower until the other person can conform (in other words, I conform to them).

[MaybeSo]

RT,

It is MY pattern to engage with men who are self absorbed and providing a nurturing experience of listening to their needs ad nauseum... . it is my pattern to do this, finding it uncomfortable to speak up and balance it by inserting MY needs. That's my problem, not his.  This is my pattern, and my responsibility to change. Getting angry about it complaining about It doesn't change MY pattern.  Speaking up for myself and inserting my needs even if it feels akward or makes me anxious,  is changing my patterns. Not being his audience when he is doing this, changes my pattern.

I have no doubt he cares about me within the parameters of his abilities.  His verbal diarrhea and incessant navel-gazing is a maladaptive coping skill, a pattern he runs regardless. 

He has his patterns, I have mine. I think we are both caring people and care about eachother.

We just have issues.

DA, I think if I were to accommodate his seeing other people, while getting me too,  I'd be heading down that path. I've never wanted to have an open relationship; so there is no reason for me to push myself

to accommodate that. He is free to have an open relationship with someone else, but it won't be me.

[MaybeSo]

that I'm being unfair cornering someone with "demands"

this is important cause I've felt that way in the past when expressing my needs,... but again... . people have the freedom and responsibility to make their own choices, so no matter what your needs are... . or how they differ from someone elses... . by expressing them, and taking care of your own needs... . you are never cornering someone with your demands.  They can always make their own choices so that their needs are better accommodated, too.

I am certain this man will be back telling you he has met all of these conditions for future intimacy with you.

I don't know if that is good or bad, or if you find it comforting or troubling, to know that will happen.  Because of course the challenge then is, can you possibly believe it, and do you want to open yourself to disappointment if he cannot make good on such aspirations.

Buddist saying:

In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you.”

[MaybeSo]

...

[Rose Tiger]

That's the insight part, at first we sooth each other's core wounds, then we trigger them.  We play this over and over with our ex's or possibly new partners.  Until we come to grips with working on not re-creating these patterns, we can't get free of them.  Definition of insanity dealy.

I know you care lots about him.

He, and my ex, pull us back into the old pattern.  Like some unspoken agreement to accepting how FOO molded us as kids.  Then boundaries shake things up, not necessarily being unaccepting of their shortfalls that they can't help, but us, reacting differently, creating new patterns.

[eeyore]

MaybeSo,  .

He clearly values you to the best of his ability and skills.  It's so unfortunate that those seem so inadequate to the task of cherishing someone as wonderful as you in a way that works for you.

I've learned so much from your story & continue to.  I hope the next little while brings unexpected rewards to you of whatever sort -- I think this would be a mighty good time for some rewards.

I so agree.

[eeyore]

DA, I think if I were to accommodate his seeing other people, while getting me too,  I'd be heading down that path. I've never wanted to have an open relationship; so there is no reason for me to push myself

to accommodate that. He is free to have an open relationship with someone else, but it won't be me.

Exactly, he'd be in an open relationship but your heart would be committed to him.  So he would be the ONLY one in an open relationship.  Which has never been what YOU wanted. 

[Phoenix.Rising]

MaybeSo,

A lot of your posts in this thread resonate with me.  I grew up around 'complex adults' with 'complex issues' as well, and I also like Woody Allen movies.  Haha!

I mainly wanted to say that I respect your courage to set some boundaries with him, and I understand how hard it is to do that.  I still think of contacting my ex at times and it's been nearly 7 months.  She had a tremendous impact on me.

I think you're doing great.  Take care.

[MaybeSo]

Wow, having gone through similar experiences with me ex,  I'm so sorry to hear this.

The crushes/romantic longings they indulge in for others ... .   just sucks.

Yup. Boundaries.