An apology - II

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Continued from Apology-I... .

My husband does not know.  Now that I have been out from under pwBPD for about 8 months, I see what a mockery it was, how unsafe, how unhealthy.  I don't know whether to tell my husband or not.

I sound flippant.  That is because I am trying to hold it together.  I am sitting here with tears streaming into my lap.  I feel like I am going to throw up again.

I am a horrible human being.  I have lost everything.  My sense of self.  My faith.  Possibly my husband.  I don't believe that God loves me anymore.

I know you weren't trying to - I appreciate yours and everyone else's words.

I have cried.  I do cry.  A lot.

But everything I wrote in the post above - it just eats at me.  Constantly.

And I'm not crying for my innocence - I'm crying for how far I've strayed, the knowledge of the horrible things I can do to someone I love that I never would have imagined, the loss of so much - because of me.

[sheepdog]

Continued from Apology-I... .

My husband does not know.  Now that I have been out from under pwBPD for about 8 months, I see what a mockery it was, how unsafe, how unhealthy.  I don't know whether to tell my husband or not.

I sound flippant.  That is because I am trying to hold it together.  I am sitting here with tears streaming into my lap.  I feel like I am going to throw up again.

I am a horrible human being.  I have lost everything.  My sense of self.  My faith.  Possibly my husband.  I don't believe that God loves me anymore.

I know you weren't trying to - I appreciate yours and everyone else's words.

I have cried.  I do cry.  A lot.

But everything I wrote in the post above - it just eats at me.  Constantly.

And I'm not crying for my innocence - I'm crying for how far I've strayed, the knowledge of the horrible things I can do to someone I love that I never would have imagined, the loss of so much - because of me.

[arabella]

arabella, you and the ones above made me cry.  I would give anything to be sheepdog again.  I miss her.

Can you tell me what you meant by Do you think you might be able to reach out at see what's really there, not just what the fear in your mind is telling you might be there? ?

You said I seem to have a very ingrained lack of trust.  Wow.  That gave me pause.  Because I do.  How did you know? 

And now, it's worse.  I question everyone.  I do not trust myself.

Oh, sheepdog, I'm so sorry you're going through this, sweetie. Truly. You don't deserve so have to struggle so hard. Your true self is still in here, still waiting for you to find her again - and you will.

I meant that right now you are paralyzed in fearing the reactions you might receive. You fear rejection from your husband. You fear judgment from a religious figure. You fear that your friends will condemn you, as you have condemned yourself. You are avoiding all of these people, in one way or another, based on what you imagine their reactions will be. It is not reality that you are living in, but a terrible world created in your mind. It is SO so hard to trust others when we don't trust ourselves. I understand that completely. But what if the key to learning to trust yourself is to take a leap of faith and trust some of those around you? Not everyone is worthy of trust, but many people are. I think you may need to reach out to see what the reaction will actually be rather than pre-judging others - or avoiding them because you fear what might happen. I have been forgiven for many things by those I have harmed - things that I could not forgive myself for. I had to accept that some others are just better persons than I, more capable of forgiveness - I am working on catching up and living to the standard that they set, because it is a much nicer space to live in.

[Phoenix.Rising]

sheepdog,


It is good you are crying.  That is a good sign.  I cry, too, sometimes I cry very hard.  There is not anything wrong with you.  You were doing the best you knew how.  You were probably deceived to some extent, and maybe not intentionally.  It's the nature of the illness of BPD.  I'm sure you had feelings for him.  I'm glad you are still with your husband, and I believe you will make peace there in time.  You are only human, as we all are.  We stumble along the best we can.  Keep on going... .

Phoenix

[goldylamont]

sheepdog, it's good that you are talking through this difficult situation. i wonder though, perhaps it's easier and less scary for you to call yourself bad names, to try and punish yourself, than it is to come out and tell the truth? it's not that i'm saying you should just say everything to your husband all at once without proper planning, but it seems that you are holding yourself captive by living in a lie. and perhaps it's easier to call yourself a bad person than to take steps to be a truthful person.

the letter that the exBPD has of yours, sounds like he's holding it over your head for blackmail. so mean, and manipulative. it sounds like the greatest fear would be your husband finding out the contents of this letter? what if you could first show this letter or talk about **all** of it with your therapist, no holds barred. also talk about all of it with some religious figure that you have respect for. in this way you can get a sense for how someone might react, and recalibrate yourself and fears about discussing it. and then, over time, put together a plan to tell your husband what's in the letter... . maybe a little bit at a time. let him know that you are scared to tell him, that you love him, and want him to know all of you. perhaps you can put together a plan to slowly let out all of the truth to the people in your life that truly have love for you--your therapist, religious consult, and finally, your husband.

the strength you've shown by not getting fully enmeshed with this pwBPD, and by having no contact for so long is great. and what it's uncovered is that you have some ideas that you've kept inside and don't feel comfortable discussing with any one. ok, so you made a "mistake?" and told a pwBPD--take this as a blessing that you were finally about to get this truth out of yourself. but, you gave it to the wrong person, perhaps the first time. now speak this truth to those who really love you--they deserve to know, what's more: you deserve the peace of mind!

i always believe that it's only a matter of time before all of the truth eventually comes to light. in this case, assume that at some point, everything you are hiding will be known by everyone--you have no control over this--but you do have control over how this truth comes out. it can come from you, from your strength and integrity, the same strength that allowed you to cut off the pwBPD (good for you!  ). you don't have to wait for it to come out from the wrong source.

make sure that you aren't using self degradation to sidestep the difficult work of taking ownership of your truth.

i'm confident you have the strength and loving community to bring this all out, at your own pace and to the right people at the right time. hoping you know this comes from a place of respect and love! 

[sheepdog]

Thank you, everyone.  I really appreciate you so much more than you know.  You have no idea.

As far as the letter, it's not exactly a letter.  Way back in the first couple months when things got physical, I wanted to save some of the texts he had sent me.  They were so loving and kind.  So I typed them up and emailed them to him.  He was supposed to print it out and put it in an envelope with some poems, etc. he had written me.  Except he never did.  I asked for them last year and he said his printer wasn't working and I asked him to email them back to me and he acted shocked and said that was too risky.  I know he had them last summer and I'm sure he still does now.  I can't really remember what was in them - a few I do and they would hurt my husband deeply but the rest I don't remember.  I haven't seen them for three years.  And BPD and I haven't spoken in ten months.

I have been doing a lot of reading on whether to tell and it seems divided.  Even my therapist at first was like 'you have to tell' but the last time I asked her she said, 'not necessarily.'

I am trying to figure out what my reasons for telling would be... . to make ME feel better or to clear the slate.  Ironically, I told BPD on more than one occasion that I wanted to tell and he said it would kill my husband and I shouldn't do it.

And then all of this:

-As I already mentioned in a post on this thread:  My husband is a photographer and when BPD moved in to his new place, we blew up one of my husband's photos and gave it to him.  Why did I do that?  It gives me so much anger that I did that.  What the hell is wrong with me?  And it gives me SO much anger that that beautiful, innocent photo is hanging in BPDs apartment.  I freaking hate it.

-The fact that we took BPD home with us twice.  He met our families.  He slept in my husband's childhood bed in his childhood home.  Yes, while he and I were physical.  The fact that he met my now-deceased grandmother and ate with my family.

-The fact that HE (BPD) knows.  Makes me want to scream.

-The fact that he supposedly had no photos of anything so I made him two photo albums with all of the fun stuff we'd done.  The fact that my husband, me, our families are all over those photo albums.

-The fact that sometimes I think BPD was a sociopath and that he is probably thinking my husband is a chump.

-All of the holidays and meals we shared.

-We went on a mini vacation with my husband, my sister-in-law, just to get out of town.  My s-I-l was going through a bad divorce and of course BPD was separated so we all went together and since we don't have much money any of us we got one room with two queen beds.  And we had me sleep with my s-I-l so she wouldn't have to sleep with a man she wasn't dating.  And yes my husband and BPD slept in the same bed.

He is going to feel so betrayed and small and I don't blame him one bit.

So many of you have talked to me about how hard on myself I am and how I don't forgive myself.  Let me turn the tables.  If your spouse did what I did, would you forgive them?  

Modified to add:  I just stumbled across the thread on this board, "Is It Okay for a Non to Have an Extramarital Affair?".  SO hard to read and I think the answer to my question above is no and I completely get that. 

[P.F.Change]

  Hi, sheepdog.

The first thing I would like to do is commend you for your honesty. It is hard to be truthful when we are afraid it will mean others will not like us anymore. I think the fact that you are working to be honest with yourself and with us here is a really good sign that you have what it takes to make it through this.

Secondly, I can relate to a lot of what you are feeling. Once upon a time, I was in a situation not terribly different from yours. Coming clean about my unfaithfulness was very difficult because I had to go head-to-head against one of my biggest fears, which was the belief that my DH would eventually find out I'm not actually lovable and would leave me once he saw what a horrible person I was. It was a huge risk. But I did it because I came clean in confession and my priest said I needed to tell DH. DH was hurt of course but he did forgive me, and we have worked through it and built an even better life together. Going through the hard work of therapy was crucial because I needed to challenge the beliefs I had about myself, ones that came from trying to cope with abusive parents and that were so deeply ingrained that I had trouble imagining anything else could be true. You are doing some of that hard work right now.

I agree that you seem to be dealing with some very deep shame, and it is good that you are willing to take a look at that. This statement from the first page of the thread stood out to me:

Please note I am NOT saying that anyone who has cheated is vile.  Just me.

What do you think is different about you? How come none of the rest of us has to be held to such an impossible standard? Do you think you are the only person on the face of the planet who deserves to go to hell for making this mistake?

Once upon a time, I thought that way. I thought God could forgive anyone else, but not me. Making a mistake--even a tiny mistake--in my mother's house might bring down her terrifying wrath upon me. I was not allowed to make mistakes. I was supposed to know better, to read her mind, and achieve perfection instantly in all things. She used my faith to shame and manipulate me. Lots of false beliefs crept in because of what I learned from her. I developed an understanding that God was like my mother. Parental relationships are supposed to model unconditional love, but my parents definitely didn't do that, so my understanding of God was naturally limited by that. I didn't understand that grace is for me, too. To a child, abuse from a parent can be indistinguishable from annihilation. My basic expectation was that if I wasn't perfect, I would be killed for it. And that is what I believed in my faith growing up, too (and maybe why you are so afraid you are going to hell for this). I think it is the source of my panic attacks--more than once I seriously thought I was about to die.

Because you seem to be sharing from a Judeo-Christian perspective, here is what I believe now. You may take this paragraph or leave it. The record is pretty clear that Christ Jesus is incredibly merciful and loving. There is nothing you have done that He hasn't seen and forgiven hundreds and thousands of times before. You haven't come up with something that He's not strong enough to handle. Some of the most famous saints did things much worse than you. He suffered and died even knowing ahead of time all the choices you would make in your life, and he still thought you were worth it. There is absolutely nothing you could ever do that would stop God from loving you. Divine love isn't earned, and it isn't withheld. It is there whether we like it or not. We are invited to participate in the love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit even though none of us is really worthy or capable of doing so on our own. When we are open to accepting God's love, we can experience joy, even through the tears of repentance. When we choose to shut that love out, we feel torture. I think heaven and hell are a choice we make here and now every day, not  something some angry guy with a lightning bolt taunts us with to manipulate us. I think it's up to you whether you want to allow God to forgive you or not. Because if you want to be forgiven, if you want to be healed, those things are his gift to you as much as they are to any one of us. But if you don't want those things, he will never force them upon you. 

Again, I want to give you a big  for your honesty. I know this is hard. And I think there is probably still some very hard work ahead for you. But whatever happens, I know you can get through it, and God will not abandon you. Neither will we. You are not going through this alone.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Free One]

So many of you have talked to me about how hard on myself I am and how I don't forgive myself.  Let me turn the tables.  If your spouse did what I did, would you forgive them?  

My uBPDexh had multiple affairs, over the course of a few years (at least that I know). Some of the women were ones we socialized with, in groups. They came to parties I hosted at my house. Some were ex's coworkers, so we saw them at social events. Some of these women I was friends with on Facebook (none were really my friends). So, in some ways I feel I have been in your husband's shoes. I found out about that affairs because my best friend saw my ex out with another girl. When I confronted, he lied, lied, lied. I had been have doubts about his faithfulness, and every time I brought it up, it became my fault that I didn't trust him. True crazy making.

It hurt to find out the truth. Most of what I know I have found out from other people and pieces of the puzzle I have put together. Ex only once admitted he had an affair, and only with one of the woman. In fact, he was distraught that my grounds for divorce was adultery.

Even after filing for divorce, I still wanted to try to work it out, and I made a list of what I would need from him. One was complete honesty and transparency. I need to know what had happened, and a guarantee that  his actions wouldn't be secretive in the future. I also need him to end the affairs and contact with these women. He could not give this to me, so I needed a divorce.

In the end, where I thought an affair would be the deal breaker in my marriage, it was actually the lying that was the deal breaker. I could've recovered from an affair. I couldn't recover from be continuously lied too. Now, I know your situation is different because it was a one time affair, that has ended. I still just wonder if your on going guilt is about the lies. Maybe you still feel you are being dishonest with your husband? I still think I would have been more devastated to learn years later about an affair that was kept secret. Either way it hurts, but for me, knowing someone you love can keep such secrets from you for so long hurts even more.

Maybe revealing the truth does seem selfish (is it selfish because you want to protect yourself or your husband?). But, I think the deciding point is this: Is your marriage going to be ruined by the secret (i.e. will you beat yourself up and never be "normal" again because of the guilt) or ruined by the truth? In your mind, have your reached the point where moving forward in either direction MAY end your marriage? If so, then which way can you live with and say you tried your best? Since you asked, my opinion (as a spouse who has been cheated on) is that your husband deserves to know and be part of the decision of where your marriage is headed.

[goldylamont]

make sure that you aren't using self degradation to sidestep the difficult work of taking ownership of your truth.

sheepdog, i was just reading another post, which had a link to a TED Talk on Shame and Guilt. and then something clicked, and rereading my post above i realize this was just the idea i was trying to express: Guilt v. Shame

Shame = feeling bad thoughts about yourself -- for example "I am bad", "I am not strong enough", "I am evil"

Guilt = feeling bad about your behaviors -- "I shouldn't have acted that way", "I shouldn't have lied", "I should have resisted this person"

I think it's important to look at Shame as our bodies way of alerting us that we need to process some Guilt. Shame should not be a state you stay in, it is the pathway to healthy Guilt. Reading posts I feel many are addressing the Shame you feel and confronting it with the Truth--you are not evil, you are not below forgiveness--yet I feel it's equally important to not pander to Shame; to realize that this shame is there to alert you to start feeling healthy Guilt.

Shame is not the truth--you are not bad... . but your behaviors are. And why this distinction is so important is because there is no power to change the Shame, because it is a lie. But you have all the powers bestowed to you to change your Guilt. Guilt is the Truth. You don't need to change a lie about yourself; you can use healthy Guilt to change your behaviors.

So, this is what i feel i meant about "taking ownership of your truth". Through the great suggestions of others here, realize Shame for the lie that it is. Then allow yourself to see the Guilt you feel as the truth of your behavior-- then realize that you have full power and the strength to change your behaviors.

www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame.html

[arabella]

He is going to feel so betrayed and small and I don't blame him one bit.

So many of you have talked to me about how hard on myself I am and how I don't forgive myself.  Let me turn the tables.  If your spouse did what I did, would you forgive them?  

My spouse has had more than one affair. I recognize much of my own story in what Free One has related above. It's the lying that got to me, not the affairs. The affairs I can forgive, but the continued lying is awful. An affair I can see as being moments of weakness, or attraction to someone who is a novelty, or a need to explore - all kinds of things, really. But the lies... . Well, that is something he is doing to ME. It is about ME. As if I don't deserve the truth. Like I am some kind of idiot and won't realize something is amiss. Like I'm not grown up enough to handle the truth and so he's going to edit it for me. It's infuriating and insulting and degrading (the lies, I mean). Personally I will always prefer having the truth. I never again want to be the last to know. I feel ill just thinking about how other people knew and were talking behind my back while I tottered on, oblivious to it all. Ugh! THAT is what made me feel small and betrayed - knowing my H let others know more than I did. Knowing that he put others' feelings, his own feelings, ahead of mine - even after he realized how bad it was. His thought was to save himself rather than deal with me.

This doesn't mean I think you need to tell your H if you think it would do more harm than good BUT, if you do tell him, you need to be prepared for a full confession. Brutal honesty. The worst things in the world are the things I make up in my own mind - the truth is always less bad than what I can come up with when left to my imagination. And if your H ever suspects that something is wrong, please don't lie about it, because that just makes it worse. If it isn't going to stay a forever secret, then you voluntarily offering the information before he suspects will likely go a long way to his being able to forgive (at least that's how it is with me - obviously I can't speak for your H).

I think the others here have also offered some great insight. YOU are not a bad person. What happened was wrong. Mistakes were made. You can't take it all back. But you can make the future better and part of that process is learning to forgive yourself and to accept forgiveness from others.

I remember the first time my H had an affair, he tried to end our r/s afterward by telling me that I couldn't forgive him so he had to leave me. I was willing for forgive but he wasn't willing to let go of his own shame so that we could be together. That made me so angry! He was the one who messed up - and now he was telling me it was over because HE couldn't get past it? How dare he tell me what I could or couldn't forgive? I can't even explain how upset I was. I told him he OWED it to me to get over it. I know that's not how it works, but that's how I felt. Long story short - he cheated and I was the one who had to do all the work to convince HIM to stay. I think that might have been the worst part of it, aside from the lies. Just my perspective, but perhaps it's a different angle to consider?

[C12P21]

Dear SheepDog,

I have been off the boards for along while due to a situation in my family. One of my daughters has had serious health issues and I my energies were directed toward her healing and taking care of grandchildren plus working.

I have read what your posts and would like to answer.

My exH was unfaithful from the beginning of our marriage, it took me along while to understand he was unfaithful.

At first, when all was disclosed and I read his emails and love letters to another woman, my co-worker, my heart was shattered. The reality is this-he has never apologized in any manner that would warrant my forgiveness. His denial and minimization of the affair is what hurt... . more than the affair in and of itself. Our marriage ended due to his denial and minimization of his actions. Had he the ability to comprehend how his affair hurt me and had he the ability to apologize and attend to our relationship... . I would have been able to get past it.

We have been divorced now for almost seven years. Recently, he discussed with me having been sexually abused as a child... . when he did, and he did this without apology of his affair, something inside of me shifted. I looked at him with compassion, a compassion I had not felt toward him in many years.

The tragic part is knowing this much, he does not treat himself with compassion. He is very cruel to himself and lives with toxic shame. Yet, he has not figured out how much he hurt me.

There is such a difference between someone who breaks their marriage vows and expresses no remorse for their actions or ever gains insight as to why they did what they did and continues on their dysfunctional dance, and someone who realizes how much they hurt themselves and their partner and has the courage to face themselves and their life history.

You have that courage and beauty inside you, it is your gift.

C

[P.F.Change]

There is such a difference between someone who breaks their marriage vows and expresses no remorse for their actions or ever gains insight as to why they did what they did and continues on their dysfunctional dance, and someone who realizes how much they hurt themselves and their partner and has the courage to face themselves and their life history.

You have that courage and beauty inside you, it is your gift.

I agree with this.

I think the point raised about honesty and transparency is important.

In the beginning I thought I had a wonderful marriage because we never fought. Truth is we were just never honest. We stuffed resentments and avoided confrontation and played like everything was fine, unless we were being passive-agressive. I had a black-and-white  and deep toxic shame, and stuck DH on a pedestal while beating myself up. The truth is, we both have flaws, we both make mistakes, we both needed help learning to communicate our needs and feelings. My infidelity wasn't just because I was a horrible crazy person with no boundaries or gratitude or self-control who would risk her children's happiness and jeopardize a perfect marriage because she didn't deserve it (this is how I talked to myself back then). It was also because my "perfect" marriage had some pretty major weaknesses, and those weren't all my fault. It took both of us working together to find those and strengthen them. My unfaithfulness was a symptom of deeper problems, not just in my own thoughts and attitudes, but also in the way my DH and I managed our r/s. If this particular symptom hadn't shown up, it would have been something else.

You are doing some hard work right now. I agree that your courage is a beautiful gift. You will survive this and whatever comes next.

PF

[goldylamont]

i just ran across this quote and thought of this thread:

All of us are human. And in God's eyes that makes us perfect. Really. Just the way we are. Like 3-year-olds, looking anxiously up at some elder, wondering with quivering lips whether we'll get a spanking for breaking the rules... .

The 3-year-old is beautiful in her innocence. He is pure as snow, and there is simply something that has not been totally understood, or fully integrated into behavior yet. It's okay. We don't mean to be "bad." And in truth, we aren't. Not a one of us. We're simply, sometimes, mistaken. And God loves us anyway. Immensely. Completely. Eternally.

--Neale Donald Walsch

[sheepdog]

Thank you SO much to all of you.  Besides my therapist, who I can't afford to see weakly, I only have the people on this board to talk to.  I feel so lost alone and crazy much of the time.

At my last therapy session, my therapist said what many of you are saying.  But I am so *strong* on what I am feeling.  Some of you who shared your experiences of your spouse being unfaithful mentioned he/she was borderline.  My therapist talked about 12 step programs.  Let me preface this by saying that I am so very sorry that any of you were cheated on.  I hope I don't botch up what I'm about to say.  But as I told her, if you are borderline or an alcoholic or have a drug addiction, then you have a *reason* for your awful behavior.  There is a reason you do/did what you do/did.  I have no excuse.  I am not mentally ill and from what I've read here and from my own experience with BPD, cheating is usually par for the course.  And when you are stoned or drunk constantly, you are not in your right mind.

I am not mentally ill (though my therapist said I have 'the pathology of codependency big-time).

I am not a drinker or a drug user.

I have no excuse. 

I would expect God to forgive someone who is sick in the head or who was an alcoholic who now sees what they did.

I have no excuse.  If this had been a one-night stand, maybe I could forgive myself.  But our physical relationship lasted a year or so.  No, we never had sex but our physical-ness was vey physical and besides, I am of the mindset that if you kiss someone other than your spouse that you are cheating (my husband feels the same way).

I don't know why I am being called courageous.  That is not something I would say I am.  Maybe back when things were horrible between me and BPD but now, no.

My therapist does not want me to tell my husband yet.  She wants me to be able to know the answer to 'why did I take up with BPD and lose myself and go against my core values?' 

I see her point but I am so very confused with this process and I think she felt (actually I told her) my frustration last time.  I am trying to figure out why but I don't know why.  She wants us to figure that out, then deal with husband, then go to why I am a raging codependent and the possible sexual abuse.  I don't know.  Doesn't one have to maybe do with the other?

She said I need to:

-get right with myself

-get right with God

-get right with my husband

She wants me to start reading the codependency book.  She wants me to see that a 100% codependent and a raging borderline is the 'perfect match' - for him.

Just feel lost and like a hamster on a wheel with all of this... . spinning, spinning, spinning and getting nowhere.


C12P21 - I hope things are better now with your family.   

goldylamont - that quote is beautiful and I am going to let it sink in and try to grab hold of it.   

[P.F.Change]

Your childhood and unmet emotional needs have everything to do with your vulnerability in this relationship. It is clear as day to me, and seems just as valid a defense as any PD could be. You seem to be thinking in black-and-white, making sure you are always "bad." Has this always been how you look at yourself?

Your T seems to have a good plan mapped out. Take a step at a time.

PF

[arabella]

But as I told her, if you are borderline or an alcoholic or have a drug addiction, then you have a *reason* for your awful behavior.  There is a reason you do/did what you do/did.  I have no excuse.  I am not mentally ill and from what I've read here and from my own experience with BPD, cheating is usually par for the course.  And when you are stoned or drunk constantly, you are not in your right mind.

I am not mentally ill (though my therapist said I have 'the pathology of codependency big-time).

I am not a drinker or a drug user.

I have no excuse. 

I would expect God to forgive someone who is sick in the head or who was an alcoholic who now sees what they did.

I have no excuse.  If this had been a one-night stand, maybe I could forgive myself. 

A 'reason' and an 'excuse' are not the same thing. We ALL have reasons for everything we do - otherwise we wouldn't do them! A mental illness or an addiction (also a type of mental illness) is just another set of reasons, not an excuse. An excuse makes things all right, it justifies. It excuses the actor. A reason is just that - an explanation. It doesn't make it right. What the cheating pwBPD, or person with addiction issues, has is only a set of pre-defined and easy to label reasons. You have reasons too, Sheepdog - reasons that are just as valid as any other persons' reasons, ill or not. So what if your reasons don't have a convenient label attached? That does not make them less valid, nor does it make you less of a person, or less deserving of forgiveness. Sometimes our past experiences and personal histories just brew a perfect storm to cumulate in a crisis. We react poorly. We realize it and work to change, we work to ensure it never happens again - and these things are what make us deserving of forgiveness. All of the perfectly labelled reasons/justifications in the world do not entitle a person to forgiveness. YOU Sheepdog are the perfect candidate to be forgiven. And you are - you just don't believe it. You are determined to NOT be forgiven (except that you don't really get a choice with God - He forgives whether you believe it or not, whether you want to be forgiven or not, whether you accept it or not).

The codependency work might be very helpful to you. If that is a major part of your personal interaction framework, and your T seems to believe it is (she's probably right), then that is very much like an addiction or mental illness. It is a distorted way of living/thinking and it affects the ability to make healthy decisions. It is a reason you might want to explore.

Have you any further thoughts re speaking with a religious figure? Your T sounds like she is working hard to help you, but perhaps a another opinion, another voice, might help you to sort out some of your spinning thoughts. Just thinking that sometimes a fresh perspective opens doors in the mind.

Take care, Sheepdog. You're going to get there! We see your courage in your determination to improve, to move forward, despite how much it hurts you. You're braver than you think!

[Grey Kitty]

Reasons. Excuses. Whatever you call them, they aren't what you need.

One thing I learned here on bpdfamily.com was that when I was accused of something, don't JADE. Don't justify, argue, defend, or explain it. All of those things are invalidating, and none of them change what you did OR what you are accused of. I learned this in the context of how to relate to a pwBPD, but it applies in a much larger context than that.

JADE-ing when a healthy person is upset with you doesn't help either, they just aren't likely to go into a fully dysregulated rage at you over it.

Taking it one step further, it doesn't help to JADE to yourself over things you regret. And what you are doing is talking about excuses or reasons that you don't have.

What works is compassion and forgiveness.

She said I need to:

-get right with myself

-get right with God

-get right with my husband

I believe that God has already forgiven you, and would forgive you if you did the same thing and worse a thousand times over. I do not believe there are any limits to what God can, will, and does forgive.

I don't know whether you will find it easier to start by forgiving yourself, or to start by accepting God's forgiveness first.

I'll go with your T's advice to work things out with yourself and with God before you work on things with your H.

 

[laelle]

  Sheeps

[Free One]

I have no excuse. 

I would expect God to forgive someone who is sick in the head or who was an alcoholic who now sees what they did.

(You have mentioned religion, and I have understood it to be in the Christian context, so forgive me if I'm wrong on that.)

Isn't the beauty of God and the Grace of God that He forgives all who seek forgiveness? We are all entitled to it. We all deserve it. No one is perfect. NO ONE.

I would urge you to learn more about codependency. Melody Beattie's books are very helpful, as is a 12-step program. Please don't take this to mean there is something "wrong" or "broken" about you. Codependency is a result of learning dysfunctional coping skills, behaviors and habits. Overcoming it is just a matter of identifying these areas and replacing them with more effective skills.

[arabella]

Reasons. Excuses. Whatever you call them, they aren't what you need.

... .

What works is compassion and forgiveness.

I disagree with the cat (this may be a first!) - I think you may need the reasons. And there are always reasons, complex as they may be. But these aren't for your H, or anyone else, but for yourself. Sometimes it is very difficult to forgive ourselves if we can't understand ourselves. (Although I'm sure there are those who can and do, so don't this as my saying it's the only way to do it!) I definitely agree that you need compassion and forgiveness. So I suppose the question then is just what do you need to get yourself there?

Good point about JADEing. It's not helpful. And I think that JADEing behaviour is much of what previous posts were commenting on re being hurt by having been cheated on. At least for me, the cheating wasn't anywhere near so hurtful as the JADEing that followed.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Sheepdog,

I would call it being human or part of the human condition.  No one is perfect, nor can we be.  You did it because you decided to!  It made you feel uncomfortable later on, so it's your decision as to whether you want to learn from this part of your life or not.  I've found that if I do not learn the lesson, I will repeat it. 

What is the lesson, Sheepdog?  Addictions aside we are all capable of making decisions that we might later regret in some fashion.  But that does not mean we are 'bad' people.  It doesn't mean anything, really.  What are you going to do differently today?  Forget about the past.



Phoenix.Rising

[livednlearned]

  to you sheepdog.

One of the things that broke my heart the worst in my marriage is realizing that N/BPDxh would never forgive. He forgave nothing. Every mistake, every problem, every negative thing added up, and just kept building, until all those mistakes and errors were a huge mountain. If you don't forgive, I don't know how you can grow. I don't know how you can feel true, deep, real love. For yourself and others.

Did you do something wrong? Yes.

Are you a bad person? No.

Was your action forgivable? Yes.

Will your husband forgive you? Unknown.

Can you forgive yourself? Unknown. 

Will God forgive you? By my definition of God, yes. Wholeheartedly.

What people here are trying to tell you is that your forgiveness of yourself, and your love for yourself, is possible. But you have to let it in. You have to believe in it more than the mistake.

[livednlearned]

Sheepdog,

You were in an abusive relationship with a man who is BPD. Focusing on whether you are good or bad, right or wrong, responsible or not responsible, is actually part of the abuse.  

If you want to heal from this, you have to let go of the good/bad thing. You have to focus on why you believed in him.

[C12P21]

You have been given very good advice and encouragement. I want to add this... . you have courage because you are facing YOURSELF. Remember the poem I posted awhile back about the Red Road? Our greatest enemy is ourselves... . and you are facing you. 

1 Corinthians 13:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

You have gone through an ordeal that has shaken the foundation and core of what you know to be true about yourself and now you are facing another truth-that you are human and flawed and did something that has caused you considerable pain. Your courageous act is your willingness to comprehend how this occurred, and the "whys" and the why is probably rooted in childhood.   

I hope this helps... .

English Revised Version (ERV)

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

Definitions for 1 Corinthians 13:11

Became - Was exactly suited for; was fitting.

Clarke's Commentary on 1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child - This future state of blessedness is as far beyond the utmost perfection that can be attained in this world, as our adult state of Christianity is above our state of natural infancy, in which we understand only as children understand; speak only a few broken articulate words, and reason only as children reason; having few ideas, little knowledge but what may be called mere instinct, and that much less perfect than the instinct of the brute creation; and having no experience. But when we became men-adults, having gained much knowledge of men and things, we spoke and reasoned more correctly, having left off all the manners and habits of our childhood.

Barnes' Notes on 1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child - The idea here is, that the knowledge which we now have, compared with that which we shall have in heaven, is like that which is possessed in infancy compared with that we have in manhood; and that as, when we advance in years, we lay aside, as unworthy of our attention, the views, feelings, and plans which we had in boyhood, and which we then esteemed to be of so great importance, so, when we reach heaven, we shall lay aside the views, feelings, and plans which we have in this life, and which we now esteem so wise and so valuable. The word "child" here (νήπιος nēpios) denotes properly a baby, an infant, though without any definable limitation of age. It refers to the first periods of existence; before the period which we denominate boyhood, or youth. Paul here refers to a period when he could "speak," though evidently a period when his speech was scarcely intelligible - when he first began to articulate.

I spake as a child - Just beginning to articulate, in a broken and most imperfect manner. The idea here is, that our knowledge at present, compared with the knowledge of heaven, is like the broken and scarcely intelligible efforts of a child to speak compared with the power of utterance in manhood.

I understood as a child - My understanding was feeble and imperfect. I had narrow and imperfect views of things. I knew little. I fixed my attention on objects which I now see to be of little value. I acquired knowledge which has vanished, or which has sunk in the superior intelligence of riper years. "I was affected as a child. I was thrown into a transport of joy or grief on the slightest occasions, which manly reason taught me to despise" - Doddridge.

I thought as a child - Margin, "Reasoned." The word may mean either. I thought, argued, reasoned in a weak and inconclusive manner. My thoughts, and plans, and argumentations were puerile, and such as I now see to be short-sighted and erroneous. Thus, it will be with our thoughts compared to heaven. There will be, doubtless, as much difference between our present knowledge, and plans, and views, and those which we shall have in heaven, as there is between the plans and views of a child and those of a man. Just before his death, Sir Isaac Newton made this remark: "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself by now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, while the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me" - Brewster's Life of Newton, pp. 300, 301. Ed. New York, 1832.

Wesley's Notes on 1 Corinthians 13:11

13:11 In our present state we are mere infants in point of knowledge, compared to what we shall be hereafter. I put away childish things - Of my own accord, willingly, without trouble

Remember when you felt so confused about the events as they happened, that you were not really all there? I often think of those confused moments or disassociation, as the little girl inside of me learning a lesson that was not taught well in childhood. You were vulnerable and being mistreated by a predator and you became trapped in his snare. Now that you are evaluating your behavior and the complexities of what happened and its aftermath... . you are no longer experiencing the events as a child but as an adult woman that is appalled. This takes great courage.

C

[sheepdog]

I'm sitting here crying.  I have had the worse three days.  I really just wish I could be swallowed up.

I don't think that I am JADE'ing.  Unless I'm misunderstanding.

I am not trying to justify - nothing could justify it.

Same with argue.

I am definitely not trying to defend it.

I guess, though, I am trying to explain it.

I don't know if that's the wrong thing to do. 

I don't KNOW that ANYTHING happened in my childhood.  I don't KNOW that.  So I have to go on this as something I did.

C12P21 - you are so right.  When I was with him, I felt I was keeping him alive, I felt loved and cherished... . for a while.  Then things started focusing a bit for me but I was so scared.  It was easier when we worked together but weren't speaking.  I tried to focus on me, help myself.  Then the year when nothing physical was going on I really started asking questions and he was not so nice to me but I also was part of that.  The first few months of this year, I guess I was expecting him to come back, to come around.  Then I knew he wasn't going to.  And that I no longer wanted him to.

That's when I really looked around and saw what a complete muck I've made out of my life.  And was and am appalled.  I have felt like that since the year he and I were friends but not physical.  I told him once that I wished I would be swallowed up or that I wished a gunman would shoot - just me- I know you're thinking I'm crazy.  I'm not.  Maybe I am.  I just don't know.  I am so lost.

I was literally shaking this morning when I called the office of my church to get the email address of a priest so I could make a confession.  I emailed him saying I need spiritual guidance and that I wanted to make a confession and just got this response:

"The only time I would have is tomorrow around midday, say 11 or 11:30.  The office is closed on Thursday and Friday, and I will be away on vacation the following week.  If that does not fit with your schedule, I am sure one of the other priests would be able to meet with you.

Thanks,"

And I just started shaking thinking what I have to say and then I started reading into his email.  I felt like it wasn't very warm (especially the closing) so I am talking myself into waiting or finding someone else. 

I am so scared.

[sheepdog]

I can't thank you enough for all of your comments.  But I need to clarify.

I was not raped by him and what you are forgetting is that after a while, I did enjoy it.  Actually, wanted it.  I felt practically a hum when he was around and I wanted nothing more than for him to touch me and hold me.  I told him I loved him.

All of this just makes me shake now and makes me want to vomit.

No, I did not act with malice toward my husband based on MaybeSo's definition.  But I *was* aware of what I was doing during the time BPD and I were together and it brought me much anguish - but not enough to stop it right away.  And that I think says a lot.

MaybeSo - your words about creating distance are so true.

Arabella - this sentence that you wrote so tripped me up:  Sheep - your reactions and ongoing trauma are WAY beyond what a person normally feels after having a simple affair.

Are they way beyond?  I don't really know.  How would a normal person feel about this?  (And I am outright saying I am probably not normal.)  And I would not define this ever as a 'simple affair.'  I'm not being argumentative.  But I think any affair is pretty huge and explosive and awful.

livednlearned - what you wrote here made me suck in my breath:  

If you want to heal from this, you have to let go of the good/bad thing. You have to focus on why you believed in him.

I don't know why this struck me so hard as the answer would be that for the first many, many months we were friends, he was just such a nice, funny, awesome guy.  And I felt heard with him.

suzn - *how* did you get right with yourself?  I look at myself each day and I don't recognize the girl in that mirror.  And not only do I not recognize her, I don't even want to be around her.

I have never read "The Shack" but I know the author had an affair with his wife's best friend.  May be too difficult to read right now.

If you are interested, I posted under my 'An Apology' thread on this board about religious stuff.

I went to the doctor yesterday and she is testing me for stomach ulcers, celiac disease, diverticulitis, and other things.

I am a complete mess.

I feel scared.

Modified to add:  I was going to put this on my other post but it had been too long and won't let me modify.  I am sitting here just unsure as to what to do in response to the priest (this is in the 'An Apology' thread) and I realized that part of it is that I am terrified and part of it is that I don't feel it's time to be forgiven.  That it shouldn't be so easy to wipe the slate clean and be forgiven.  That what happens after that?  I'm still going to be a mess.

Maybe I am crazy, after all.  

[sheepdog]

I was going to add this to my post right above but too much time had passed and it wouldn't let me modify.

I am sitting here just unsure as to what to do in response to the priest (this is in the 'An Apology' thread) and I realized that part of it is that I am terrified and part of it is that I don't feel it's time to be forgiven.  That it shouldn't be so easy to wipe the slate clean and be forgiven.  That what happens after that?  I'm still going to be a mess.

Maybe I am crazy, after all.

[goldylamont]

sheepdog, i think it would be helpful to know what you are afraid of? could you explain what is making you scared?

[sheepdog]

goldylamont, I am terrified that he is going to yell at me and see me in church later on down the line and give me the evil eye.  I have such low-worth and am such a mess right now that if he is mean or flippant, I will be devastated.

I am afraid that he is going to tell me what I already think - that I am going to hell.  I broke one of the big ten commandments.  This is a huge sin.

[goldylamont]

i see, ok it's really good that you can identify your fears. thank you for that.

this is what i would do then--i wouldn't go to this priest or to this church. find another church and another priest outside of your social circle. you deserve this. this way you have a safe place to open up and face these fears. you would know that even if the priest reacted negatively (which would be indicative that he really was the one with issues) that he couldn't take it out on you or cause trouble with your family. you could then open up to someone new in a safe environment then later on guage and see how real your fears are.

run to your fears! it's a great way to calibrate yourself to see how valid they really are. and you can do this safely by choosing a new and separate space to do this. what do you think?

[P.F.Change]

(Cross-posted.)

goldylamont, I am terrified that he is going to yell at me and see me in church later on down the line and give me the evil eye.  

Have you seen him behave this way toward other people? What evidence do you have to support your hypothesis?

I am afraid that he is going to tell me what I already think - that I am going to hell.  I broke one of the big ten commandments.  This is a huge sin.

Do you go to some weird kind of church I don't know about? I never heard of a sin Christ Jesus can't forgive. Yes, adultery is a mortal sin. That means it's dangerous, not unforgiveable.

Guess what? YOU'RE A SINNER. Welcome to the club. Every single human on this planet has broken the ten commandments. If only perfect people got into heaven, it would be empty. But it's not. It's full to the brim with sinners. God knows we're broken. He knows we're pretty hopeless on our own. Which is why He became one of us. If there is a sin He can't forgive, then He's not only a pretty impotent God, but that whole crucifiction/resurrection business was a complete waste of time.

Moses was a murderer. The prophet King David was a murder AND an adulterer. Saint Mary of Egypt was a prostitute, not because she had to be but because she liked it. Saint Pellagia was an exotic dancer and prostitute who tried to seduce monks in order to mock God. Every single one of them was at least as "bad" as you, arguably much worse. Yet the Church recognizes them as saints. Why? Because in recognizing their sin, they chose to turn from their wickedness and receive the grace of God to work out their salvation in repentance. They were willing to believe and accept that God is more powerful than their sin. If God doesn't forgive you, He's going to have to kick all of them out, too.

Now, Judas, on the other hand, given the opportunity to repent, chose differently. Instead of turning away from sin and falling at the feet of Christ Jesus in humility and repentance for what he had done, he chose to turn away from God and fall into despair. He would rather condemn himself and take his own life than allow the work of forgiveness. He decided it would be too hard, that he was beyond help, that his sin was bigger than God's love.

It is entirely up to you which you wish to be. If you want to repent and receive forgiveness, it is available to you. If you prefer to run away rather than reconcile yourself to God, He will allow you the freedom to do so.

I am reminded of a hymn from my days as a protestant. The lyrics are so beautiful:

Just as I am, without one plea,

   but that thy blood was shed for me,

   and that thou bidst me come to thee,

   O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

   Just as I am, and waiting not

   to rid my soul of one dark blot,

   to thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,

   O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

   Just as I am, though tossed about

   with many a conflict, many a doubt,

   fightings and fears within, without,

   O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

   Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;

   sight, riches, healing of the mind,

   yea, all I need in thee to find,

   O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

   Just as I am, thou wilt receive,

   wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;

   because thy promise I believe,

   O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

   Just as I am, thy love unknown

   hath broken every barrier down;

   now, to be thine, yea thine alone,

   O Lamb of God, I come, I come

Christ Jesus knows you are a sinner. He wants you anyway.

PF