Do you feel like you deserve bad treatment?

[Blazing Star]

I have seen a few Therapists over the years, and have had ones that I stopped seeing after a few session, because like yours I felt they didn't care, or we didn't gel, or weren't on the same page. However it wasn't until I read a book about Therapy (recommended by a T) that I really started to get what therapy could be about. (Book was: Love's Executioner and other tales of Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom), and to realise how far it could go if I let it (still not sure I have let it, but I think about it often!)

You said "I remember wondering why I wasn't getting on with my therapist-I never trusted her. I didn't want to work alongside her because I didn't feel like she cared. It was all transference... the feelings I had towards my father were projected onto her. I would get angry with her and just end up insulting her when I wasn't making any progress. Which obviously wasn't helpful. But then, I did the same thing towards my father. When my father wasn't giving me the love I wanted so badly, I'd insult him. Maybe he was mean to me first but either way, the claws came out and I was mean. I still feel that my father deserved it though. I still feel my therapist deserved it. I have no regrets on either score. I still feel justified yet I know that there's an indisputable link between the two events... "

He speaks about this in the book, about how transference can be really helpful, to work out those feelings we have for our parents in a safe space with the Therapist. There were times in the past when I felt like I couldn't trust the T with my feelings, and there was no way I could express this to her (for fear of hurting her feelings    !) I realise now that its her job, she would have handled it and talking about those feelings of trust with her could have been really theraputic.

Trust is a big one I know. So great you are looking at all this stuff. Have your experiences with that T put you off finding another to work through some of the stuff with?

Love Blazing Star

[musicfan42]

That's a really good question Blazing Star. I don't want to go to therapy again however I've realized that I need an outlet to express my emotions. I've started journalling and that's filling the void right now.

Thanks for the book recommendation by the way-I'll be sure to check it out

[doubleAries]

I think many of us don't consciously think or feel we deserve bad treatment. I don't. But I apparently ooze that unconscious belief from every pore, which is easily sniffed out by those who need someone to treat badly.

One of the really important realizations for me about codependency wasn't just being tired of being a doormat. It was the realization that those of us with spongy boundaries/codependency are also controlling. When we don't have boundaries, we don't know how to respect others boundaries either. And that it's sure a lot easier to focus on how hurt WE get by having poor boundaries, than it is to notice how we hurt others with this same exact problem. How we push our "help" on others, push ourselves on them, invade their space with our lack of understanding of boundaries. We aren't just perfectly innocent, healthy little victims. We can pretend all we want that all that sacrifice and "help" is strings free, but it's not, and everybody involved knows it, even though it is verboten to speak aloud.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

A lot of my own fixing and helping stem from a horrific childhood that no one intervened in. Doing for others what I wished someone would have done for me. Whether they want me to or not. Sacrificing yourself for someone else ALWAYS leads to resentment. Then we want the person we resent to listen endlessly to our litany of complaints about how crappy they are treating us, and are outraged at the "lack of respect" they exhibit by NOT doing this. Because what we really want is for them to love us in the spots where we don't know how to love ourselves. And by definition (SELF love), they cannot. But they should, by gawd! After all we've done for them!   Nothing boundary busting about that, right? 

Recovery started in earnest when I stopped focusing on what was being done to me and started focusing on my role in the dance, and what I wanted to do to change that. And when I stopped confusing JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) with boundary enforcement. And when I began to feel more secure about myself instead of sacrificing myself to people I wanted to reflect back to me that I have worth/value.

[Blazing Star]

I've started journalling and that's filling the void right now.

Bringing your own awareness to what is going in inside is key. You seem to be doing some great reflecting, so keep it up. Journalling is a wonderful tool. I use it a lot,  and I know for me I can sometimes find it hard take it further, and at the moment visit a T monthly or so when I am stuck and need a perspective other than my own.

Love Blazing Star

[musicfan42]

Thanks guys for your insightful comments!

doubleAries-as always, you make a lot of sense here! You have a lot of self-awareness and that's to be commended.

Blazing Star- thank you! I feel like I'm struggling a lot lately so I've been finding solace in journalling. Yes, I know exactly what you mean by getting stuck at times... that's only natural. I think it's really essential to seek support, whether that's in the form of therapy, support groups, friends and family etc. I feel that I need more support in my life right now. I'm giving myself a few days to think it over and decide how to seek the extra support that I require.

I read a small preview of the book that you mentioned from google books and it looks good!

[snappafcw]

DoubleAries I have read your post and I see all your points and I feel ashamed to be honest I always thought I was a good person to people... .

[musicfan42]

Doing for others what I wished someone would have done for me. Whether they want me to or not. 

This part really sticks out for me doubleAries. I hate listening to other peoples' problems though because there's nothing in it for me whereas when I give advice, I get to feel important. Listening is really a selfless act and I just don't know whether I have the patience or the inclination to listen to other peoples' problems. I tend to feel irritated internally and 99% of the time, my attempts to solve their problem is just because I want to get rid of them... that they're just a nuisance... . deep down, I don't really want to be bothered... I've enough problems of my own etc so I've had to learn to set firmer boundaries with other people.

If I gave advice/acted in a codependent manner, I felt that the other person owed me a favor and that gave me a sense of control however I found that I was usually the one giving and not really receiving very much in return.

I have to be honest and say that your post left me feeling unsettled. It made me feel defensive and I had no idea why so I decided to just give it time and reflect on why that was. I think it troubled me because I realized that I give advice a lot here on the forum when some people would probably prefer validation, empathy, understanding etc. I do my best to be supportive here however some of it is motivated by self-interest. I'm here because I want help and whilst I'm here, I read other posts and respond to the ones that I'm particularly drawn to or the ones where I feel I can offer some words of wisdom. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though because it's a mutually beneficial online community here where everyone helps each other out. The website is well-moderated and there are guidelines for posting so there's a lot of boundaries in place.

In life, we're all interdependent-we're autonomous individuals yet we still may rely on others for emotional support for certain issues. I don't think that's a problem provided that there are clear boundaries and that there's a sense of reciprocity within the relationship. I say "certain issues" because everyone has their limits-it can't be about every single little thing in life. I don't have sympathy for people who are getting themselves into crisis/drama all the time as ultimately, they're just irresponsible people. I don't care if that sounds harsh-that's been my experience of it. However, if there's someone who is genuine-i.e. they're usually responsible but they're just going through a bad patch in life, then sure, I will listen and if necessary, direct them to their G.P. etc for professional support.

Your post made me realize that I need to outline my boundaries surrounding the amount of support that I'm prepared to offer people. I feel that I'm willing to offer people I trust a greater amount of support than people I don't trust/not close to/dislike.

I actually ended up googling "active listening" and found "a listening wheel" for future reference. It's similar to the concept of validation however I responded better to the listening wheel model for whatever reason. I struggle to deal with difficult conversations with people-I just want to change the subject or give them advice so at least now I have another option.

I don't feel guilt anymore for not automatically offering support to someone. I feel that I have to think it through carefully beforehand and weigh it up-do a pros and cons list. It also depends on the type of person. If someone is the type that is easy to deal with, then I'm more inclined to offer support whereas if they're more awkward, I tend to want to just push them away. I don't really help people I dislike as a rule-it just wouldn't feel appropriate... it'd be weird if I suddenly pretended that I cared about them the minute they were having issues in their life.

I don't really feel that I was listened to non-judgmentally. I was listened to as a child however I was usually given some kind of tough love  style advice. I think that's probably why I find it hard to be non-judgmental... . I'm just not used to it.


I think another reason why I felt defensive as I read your post is because you said "we aren't just perfectly innocent, healthy little victims". When I started this thread, I was judging myself very harshly and then I thought "I need to give myself a break". Sure, we're not completely innocent however we're not criminals either. In the grand scheme of things, codependency is probably down to a misguided notion that we can save someone as well as low self-esteem/low self-worth. I think that it's manipulation on one level however I don't think there is any malicious kind of intent inbuilt into it. I also don't think it's conscious manipulation... it's not deliberate... the codependent may not even realize what he/she is doing and then even when he/she does, it may be hard to envisage dealing with situations in a different way. Whereas if you look at an issue like domestic abuse-it's a very deliberate campaign aimed at gaining control over the victim. I think that a lot of codependents just don't have the skills... don't know any better. It's not down to any kind of badness on the part of the codependent. Codependents typically have weak/spongy boundaries and don't know where they end and another person begins.

Codependents tend to come from dysfunctional households whereby there were very rigid family rules e.g. don't talk, don't feel, don't think. The family as a collective machine was prioritized over the well-being of each family member as an individual. Generally, there was a ruler in the family that had most of the control and the other family members orbited around that person, doing their biding... going along with it because they didn't want to rock the boat etc... . for a number of reasons. Codependents may have been from families where a parent(s) put unrealistic expectations on them from an early age. It can range from expecting the child to be perfect or in more serious cases, expecting the child to look after younger siblings or do a vast majority of the housework/cleaning from a very young age etc. I feel that the low self-worth inbuilt in codependents develops because there was too much expected of the child. Maybe the child was criticized a lot or otherwise emotionally abused. That kind of emotional invalidation can have a profound effect on individuals as adults. Of course, other types of abuse will also have an effect on the child's psyche as he/she enters adulthood and beyond.

I think what I'm trying to say is that codependents didn't choose to become that way however they have a responsibility to find better ways of coping as adults. DBT says something similar about borderlines-that they may not have caused their problems but that it's still up to them to solve them.

I was judging myself harshly for being codependent-using words like "doormat" however I've realized just now that it's futile. I need to radically accept myself-that it was not my fault that I learned to be codependent in relationships in the first place and also work on better ways of coping with relationship issues etc.

[Scout99]

Thank you DoubleAries for giving your in many ways insightful post in this thread!

I too however, much like musicfan42, felt a bit defensive while reading it, and too had to sit down and think for a bit about what it was that made me feel that way... .

Like I have said before in this thread I think there are a multitude of reasons why we get ourselves overly attached to our BPD loved ones. And co-dependency is certainly one of them... . But in my case that explanation has not completely felt as if it fit the bill for me... . My struggle has more or less always been about wanting to break free from dependency (in my case to a very selfish and perhaps even disordered mother who didn't, and still doesn't really understand where she ends and I begin). And my biggest problem is not being able to fend for myself when push comes to shove, but keep abandoning myself because the consequences of me breaking free always are too big... .

I think there lies in me at least a conflict of loving and wanting to love a person who sometimes reciprocates and sometimes doesn't... . But in my case she is the only mother I have... . And I believe now that most of the learned behaviors I tend to bring into my relationships stem from my struggle of trying to love her enough for her to be the person she is when she feels I do for her what she wants me to... . I have never felt like I need to "help" or "save" my mother... . I have mostly been trying to save myself... . Sometimes to break free, (which mostly has failed), and sometimes to earn her love, (which often works)... . So my coping strategies very much revolves around that also in my adult relationships with men... .

Sure, boundaries are not a very big part of my life yet, however they are beginning to take form... . But I too as musicfan42 states it very well, also need to give myself a break once in a while... . I put a lot of blame on myself always, for not standing up for myself, for not being there enough, for not loving myself enough and so on... . And I need to stop doing that... . Like my T once said to me... . The coping strategies I learned as a kid, actually did work for me in that situation... . It is just that in an adult relationship some things are different, and therefore they don't pay off as well as they have in my r/s to my parents... .

I think the basic problem many of us here have is we have never been given the tools or the validation needed to be able to create any kind of healthy self love. And it is my firm belief that mankind as a whole cannot really live without love... . we need to feel loved in at least some way and by someone. And we all need to at times at least be interacting with others for that very purpose... .

I am beginning to feel that the concept of boundaries won't work unless you actually get to the point first that you actually are worthy of someone else's love. Our self love is not sufficient to build a strong sense of self... . Since we all always in one way or another as human beings relate to our peers... . So the road to recovery I think goes through learning how to appreciate love from other people to an extent that we also begin to accept and learn to love ourselves for who we are... . And from there we can create and grow to hold up boundaries for ourselves... .

The problem is when that foundation is non existent, then just putting up a boundary pretty much means cutting yourself off from love all together... .

I mean it all sounds very nice to say you don't need anybody else as long as you love yourself... . But I don't believe that is really true... . At least not for me... . It feels to me more like a self help book slogan... .

I believe we need love also coming from others, (however not necessarily just from a partner), to be able to form self love, (if it has been traumatized in childhood).

However a lot of this is about finding balance... . Not needing too much validation to be able to form self love for instance... . And that is where things get problematic in connection with our BPD loved ones, where idealization is such a big part of most initial encounters with pw BPD... .

I have for instance never felt it to be my job or my need to "help" my BPD ex with his BPD or with loving me... . I have never blamed him for his inability to give me what I need. Since I don't really know what it is I need... . (I am learning that part too in therapy now, exploring and forming my own identity for the first time in much forty plus years on this planet... . ).

Thinking aloud I also wonder if there really is a need for relationships between people if we work towards erasing both wanting and to some degree needing each other. In a way I believe relationships are there to help us learn not to become overly selfish and egocentric. But instead find balance in both receiving love from a loving partner as well as be loving and accepting towards ourselves... . After all it is love thy neigh our as you love yourself... . Not just love yourself and don't need anybody else... .  just to exaggerate a bit... .

I think musicfan42 really has a point that resonates to me when she wrote this:

I was judging myself harshly for being codependent-using words like "doormat" however I've realized just now that it's futile. I need to radically accept myself-that it was not my fault that I learned to be codependent in relationships in the first place and also work on better ways of coping with relationship issues etc.

Best Wishes

Scout99

[doubleAries]

It certainly was not my intention to trigger up everyone's defensiveness. So maybe I need to go a bit more in depth about what I meant. However, I am chuckling a little bit right now... . at the end of my reply I mentioned confusing JADE with boundaries. Now everyone is  Justifying and Defensive and I am Justifying and Explaining--3/4 of the JADE model. 

There is nothing at all wrong with helping others. But as codependents it behooves us to examine our motives when helping others--even to the point of did the other person actually ask for our help?

It also behooves us to examine our own defense mechanisms. I note that codependents (I include myself first and foremost) are quick to discern the difference between malicious and accidental harm--and while there is a difference, we tend to put too much emphasis on that difference, and often as a Justification to dismiss the harm we may have caused, since it was "accidental" rather than malicious. That way, we can continue on the way we have been, without making any changes. We believe our Justifications more readily than others do. And we are more apt to attribute our harm causing behavior to accident and others harm causing behavior to maliciousness (maybe because we don't have the benefit of their Justifications?)

Musicfan has noted the parent with poor boundaries has a big impact on the child. True enough. Yet our own poor boundaries don't have a big impact on others? Because we are able to Justify and Explain them to ourselves?

Just because we aren't malicious (and don't the malicious people have Justifications and Explanations to help them believe they are NOT malicious?) doesn't mean we aren't having an impact.

If I gave advice/acted in a codependent manner, I felt that the other person owed me a favor and that gave me a sense of control however I found that I was usually the one giving and not really receiving very much in return. (quote from musicfan)

This is pretty much the heart and soul of codependency, is it not? What if, sometimes, it isn't actually that we aren't getting much in return, but simply that we don't value what we are getting in return? And just maybe because we know more about what we DON'T value than what we DO value? Aren't VALUES what boundaries are there to protect?

There is a huge focus on BOUNDARIES, but boundaries are simply the fences of protection around the VALUES the boundaries are meant to protect. Maybe--just maybe--we aren't getting much in return because we have not communicated what we want (what we value) in return. And maybe--just maybe--that is because not only do we not really know what we value--especially on an emotional level--but because we don't want to be so open about this "barter" system we are engaged in. We believe that "tit for tat" or "value for value" is wrong and bad, and that "selflessness" is good and right. If there is something in it for me, then it must be bad, correct? because I, the codependent, don't deserve.

So "what's in it for me" becomes covert ("accidental" instead of overt ("malicious". And I maintain that a big part of why we "don't know" what we want in return is because what we want is not possible for someone else to give. We want self-respect, self-worth, self-value, and self-love. So of course we don't communicate (or "know" what we want in return, because saying this out loud, asking someone to give you what they cannot--what we must do for ourselves--is patently ridiculous.

Instead of examining this, we examine how we give and give and give and get so little in return, and how we are going to protect ourselves from these predators who take advantage of us. We are engaged so often in an impossible blackmail scheme--one we cannot win as long as the "perpetrators" are outside of ourselves.

Look, I'm not saying we codependents are BAD people--we've already heard plenty of that in our lives, haven't we? Please don't jump to this conclusion to avoid what I'm saying. What I AM saying is I cannot afford--emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, physically, or financially--to be codependent any longer. And that means getting to the root of the issue, not just soothing the symptoms.

Here is a quote from a book I posted on another thread on this site, that I want to repost here. It is harsh but  informative. This is how (professional) others see us codependent types when they aren't being so gentle. I'm more a fixer than an enabler, but both fixers and enablers fall under the headline "codependent" and there are blatant overlaps.

"Enablers are power hungry and addicted to control. They make excuses for the damaging or self destructive behavior of those close to them because it increases their importance as the seemingly "stable" center around which chaos and depravity swirl. Without sick people depending on them to stay afloat, enablers wouldn't be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. They would have to focus on it and therefore feel it. And they will do almost anything to avoid that”

This is the description of a codependent mother of a BPD by a psychiatrist. In another part of the book, he also describes the BPD valuing/devaluing of others, and correlates the codependents similar pattern. The gung-ho "here I am to save the day!" beginning that turns to the "I give and give and give and get little to nothing in return" ending. To the other person, does it really matter if it was "accidental" or "malicious"? Probably not. That only matters to us when we are JADEing.

It is our responsibility to change ourselves (not those around us). If we want healthy, content lives, then we have to make that happen. Sitting around castigating ourselves (or others) for being BAD people is an avoidance of the problem, not a solution. In a business, you take inventory of your supplies. You keep what is useful and throw out what is not. You don't attribute moral values or devalues to the supplies.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

[doubleAries]

Bit more clarification---

I, probably like many of you, HAVE articulated at times the value I want in return (and yes, it is usually uncomfortable, and my dander is up because I am vulnerable and expect therefore to be treated with kid gloves). And there have been times--many of them--where that request was turned down. Sometimes "maliciously". And that is pretty much proof to me that what I "gave" really did have strings, even though I pretended to myself and others that I was simply being selfless. Not to mention that what I really wanted was NOT articulated (self-worth, self-value, etc) but implied.

My point is in many ways it is true--I was selfless alright. And that's the problem. A self is important. I wanted someone else to give me a self. Even though only I can do that, and I can't do that as long as I'm pretending that "selflessness" is the actual value/goal.

If I'm really so "selfless", then why am I resentful about doing all the giving, and getting little to nothing in return? People who have no self (ie: are "selfless" shouldn't mind being taken advantage of at all. People who are smothering their self, though, trying to kill it all while covertly demanding others fulfill it, feel resentment. When we examine the resentment--instead of the person we are blaming the resentment on--it looks a little different. Maybe a LOT different... .

It's even worth asking ourselves... . "I'm not getting what I value in return for what I have given. But I also don't know for sure that what I have given was of value to the person I gave it to, do I?"

[doubleAries]

Dang it! I keep forgetting to say the part that seems important through this:

I think it is OK to have strings attached to what we are giving! There is nothing wrong with expecting something in return most of the time! And that one of the big problems here for us codependents is we aren't up front about that, because we think there's something wrong with it. So what is wrong with it? What is wrong with SHARING instead of just selflessly giving (and then being resentful)? We know there's nothing wrong with it, or we wouldn't resent doing all the giving!

But we have to be able to communicate what we want in return--even if only to ourselves. And what we want has to be reasonable, not impossible. Which means being honest with ourselves. We have to come to understand that when we want someone else to replace the angst feeling inside us with a content warm fuzzy feeling, that maybe the angst is coming from our own internal turmoil over the division of self and selfless, and the other person can't do that. And that just because they can't doesn't mean we should label them as predators, taking advantage of us.

Not that we don't magnetize predators--we do. But we have to remove the "kick me" sign from our backs instead of covertly demanding that others ignore it, and then believing that going from covert to overt defense mechanisms is a solution instead of a sideways avoidance.

There. Maybe that's what I was trying to say... .

[musicfan42]

I think it's healthy that there's a good discussion on this issue. It would be boring if we all had the exact same opinion.

One thing I've noticed is how harsh a lot of people here are on themselves, including myself! I feel that if one is constantly indulging in self-criticism, then it's a lot easier for someone else to put you down because you're already doing it to yourself. So I think that self-compassion can actually be a tool... a barrier/boundary if you like against predators.

I'm increasingly accepting of my human imperfections-that I have strengths and weakness... both. And that it's okay. That I am lovable just as I am-that I don't have to be perfect to be lovable... that my very imperfections can make me even more lovable at times. Perfection is boring-it's just too shiny, too new... it's much more interesting to meet a strong yet imperfect person and engage with them. I used to think that my emotions were just weakness however I've realized that it gives me excellent interpersonal skills... that my emotions enable me to connect with others and empathize with them.

Of course it's incumbent upon people to work on their own issues however I'm seeing that a lot of people here have been through some tough situations... turbulent upbringings, relationships etc. I think that's why it's important to encourage everyone to work on their own issues in a gentle way. In some of my posts, I've had a real no-nonsense attitude that was probably a bit harsh whereas now I'm thinking "look, we're all just human... . no one has everything figured out... . we're all just learning".

The reason why I say that codependents aren't criminals either is because I was reading a book on depression and it had an exercise in it on handling feelings of guilt and shame. It basically said that there is a continuum, that it's not all-or-nothing. It said "are you as bad as Hitler?" And that made me think "eh no, of course I'm not". It just gave me a sense of perspective-that sure, I've made mistakes in my life but that I tried to do my best. I'm not letting myself off the hook or making excuses however I also don't think there's any point in giving myself a hard time over things that happened in the past that I can't change now anyways. I think that I'm finding a balance... that I'm firm but also loving to myself at the same time. I didn't realize that it was possible to have high standards and also give yourself self-compassion, self-care etc.

[snappafcw]

I can't thank you all enough for your insight you really have helped me. I guess its a positive that I am in touch with my feelings now they will be dealt with and then hopefully soon I will be at the 100% acceptance phase. I know I'm a good person and I can tell by the compassion freely given on this board you are all good people too. We just need to work on some things to make ourselves even better. I guess I accept that now because i know I was very good to my ex and she completely took me for granted. Did I allow that to happen? Sure. But I can't excuse her for being a crappy human being when I loved you... .

I saw a saying the other day.

Don't think somebody is a fool for trusting you. You were just given a lot more credit than you deserve.

Well it went something like that anyway

[rollercoaster24]

Hi to all

Interesting post, and very fitting.

Yes, I felt like I deserved his bad treatment, maybe a little before I met him, and certainly after I had been deprived of sleep and under constant attack (by him) many days per week for two years, bumbling around in a fog of confusion and pain constantly.

Even more with the extreme manipulation tactics he used. This is a man who borders on genius, (or so he and his Mother told me), apparently at the age of 11, he was so intellectually advanced, that they were considering moving him to university to finish his schooling... I never really heard the rest of that story, but I don't doubt his intelligence. Unfortunately he lacks emotional intelligence, (one of the necessities in true ability).

Why I stayed if things were that bad? Well, there were obviously the occasional pay off's where he was kind and loving, giving, but I was like that rat in the cage we all hear about here, pressing and pressing, over and over, to get food pay off, and I never knew when it would arrive, just that it would, surely if I kept trying... .

And yes, I loved him so, and kept on hoping. My conditioning was also that you didn't give up easily on a relationship, you kept at it, and kept trying.

ExuBP was also doing a rat experiment of his own, except that he was the Scientist and for all intents and purposes, in control of the whole experiment, (although allegedly I had more control than I ever thought possible!)

So as it goes, exBP had me in the cage as his rat, now and again, he would reward me with wonderful tasty food treats, (love, cuddles and being pleasant company). Me the rat kept pressing the button to be rewarded, anticipating the sweetness of such things when they came. I was given many games and things to occupy me in my little cage, and really enjoyed all of them for a time.

The Scientist, (exBP) would occasionally electrocute me, instead of rewarding me, and then put his finger in my cage to see what I did. If I as a rat, bit him on the finger, he would punish me by starving me for several days, and then go back to rewarding me again, (giving me pats, and nice food treats that I didn't even have to press the button for, he just put them in my cage with me!

Then the next morning, no food would arrive, so eagerly I would again try pressing the button again for more treats.

And so the cycle went.

Occasionally, BP the Scientist went too far with his little electrical experiments with me the rat, and he nearly killed me many times, after which he would usually be immediately sorry, and try to comfort me with soft tender words and more treats to bring me back round again.

I rat, would cower in the cage, afraid, and then after a few days of safety, I would recover, (pats and food given without need for buttons being pressed) then suddenly, that food supply would stop so I would go back to pressing the button for treats/food/comfort.

It occasionally got to the point where my little rat brain was so confused, when the Scientist put food in my cage, I wouldn't go near it for a while, and would stop eating drinking, such was the fear of pain from random electrocutions.

Eventually, I lost all my motivation to play on the toys in my cage, I even lost all motivation to clean myself and take care of any clean up jobs in my cage too. That was when the Scientist seemed to lose interest in me, and the electrocutions seemed to be more frequent again, it got to the final stage, when I wouldn't come out of my hiding box, to see the Scientists face. I just stayed in there all day and tried to avoid him.

Although I was well aware that the Scientist was nearby, mucking around with his many other projects and ignoring me mostly anyway.

One day, after several months of my frequent hiding, the Scientist took the cage I was in, carried it outside, and let me out, there was a big Cat nearby, but the Scientist didn't seem to care, he just flicked me out, and at first I sat still for a very long time, still hiding, and afraid to move.

The Scientist took his hand out of his pocket as he walked off, and he had another rat in it, which he put into my cage as he was walking off.

I found a very good place to hide, (away from the menacing cat nearby) but still stayed where I was, afraid to move too far for quite some time.

Slowly, I edged my way back out into the world, but first took a look at the laboratory I had been trapped in for so long, and to see how my other rat peers were doing in there.

I was horrified to see the Scientist still electrocuting those poor creatures, and wondered how long it would be before someone caught him... I hoped it would be soon.

And off I ran into the sunshine.

[maxen]

this is a really brave thread and thanks to everyone above for being so open.

i don't feel that i deserve bad treatment, but it's all i expect. certainly this comes from experiences and attitudes i picked up when young. on the personal level, my father was a genuinely good guy but distant (he used to come home from work and at the dinner table ask my mother "what did he do in school today" with me sitting right there). so he didn't intervene at all with my mother, who is paranoiac, and thinks the worst of everything reflexively. i knew there was a problem even when i was very young, but i keep discovering how deeply her patterns of thought have affected mine.

but more influential in this regard than either of these individual personalities was the emotionally callous and pitiless ethic of my parents' upbringing. any trace of complaint, any neutral observation that could be taken as a complaint, any desire that things be different from the way they were, was crushed. whatever happens to you, you take. i still have no idea what they were trying to keep at bay; perhaps by opening the door to feelings you would become paralyzed with sadness, or you might actually come to think that you were special in some way, and the tall tree gets lopped. we're all going to be wretched together.

so in the marriage i was repeatedly treated abusively (usually in the form of being treated like a servant) and just absorbed it and carried on. i certainly complained (because i didn't deserve such treatment), and that was my fatal error, because w felt that a couple should never have any issues, that we should just accept everything about each other exactly as it is - a BPD defense mechanism, i now understand. by the time she bolted things emotionally had slowed down.

there were other reasons i stayed. i loved above all the security of marriage, the fact that we would have each other forever. i loved our activities as a couple. she had great qualities. she was successful and i was proud of her. i loved that we had a social network, in-laws and nephews and nieces. i had a strong commitment to our vows. i was actually looking forward to her arrival home from work the day she announced her infidelity and left.