does your ex like revenge?

[momtara]

When my husband gets triggered (like, by any new step in the divorce process), he turns into a different, very cold person, and gets revenge.  When he is not triggered, he is sweet and loving.  As I posted yesterday, he coldly canceled a necessary dentist appointment for my son and didn't even tell me.  He knew I had been waiting for the appointment and our son was complaining of mouth pain.

When we were living together, I would notice that if I closed off one avenue of revenge, he'd find another.  He used to cancel vacations I was looking forward to.  So I brought that up in counseling an it stopped, but he began canceling other things to get me back.

In his mind, he probably doesn't see it as revenge.  In fact, he has said as much.  He is angry an I guess he feels powerless.  Canceling things helps him take the power back.

But I wonder now how far it will go.  My lawyer is going to send a letter about the cancelations... . so what will he do next?

Anyway, does your ex get revenge?  If you were able to stop it, did it escalate in another way?

[DreamGirl]

I think you already have all your answers here, momtara.

In his mind, he probably doesn't see it as revenge.  In fact, he has said as much.  He is angry an I guess he feels powerless.  Canceling things helps him take the power back.

I have to say that I think he's telling you the truth - and from the outside looking in, I agree that it's more about his feeling powerless then his trying to retaliate against you.  

I'm sure it "feels" like revenge to you, but that doesn't always mean that's what his intention was. It's hard as a parent to feel like you don't get a say in your kids' life - it's a pretty common feeling of non-custodial parents (look at those on the boards here). All that is compounded when involved in a high-conflict divorce.  The non-custodial parent has to place all their trust in the other parent which can be really hard to do when you are divorcing that parent.

It sounds more like a pretty immature way for him to feel more in control of the situation surrounding the kids. You've said that you obtained majority custody with his having equal decision making rights. You made a dentist appointment and he canceled it because he didn't think the child needed it. It's his way of interjecting himself into the situation and having an opinion. He doesn't feel heard so he was determined that you hear him.

... . he coldly canceled a necessary dentist appointment for my son and didn't even tell me.  He knew I had been waiting for the appointment and our son was complaining of mouth pain.

This would really frustrate me.

I also have learned in all of this there isn't really a whole lot of "stopping" the other side from doing something as much as it's more about my not "accepting" certain things.

I try really hard to inculde my exH in the decision making process, and when he doesn't agree, that's OK. It's a dentist appointment not major surgery - I wouldn't include a lawyer. For me, if it was important enough to me and I'd consulted him as to whether the kiddo needs to go and he said "no way, he doesn't need it". I'd probably slip my "do the right thing" cap on, schedule the appointment with a heads up along the lines of "I respect that you don't think he needs to go, but he is still complaining of mouth pain. I'd rather pay for it myself then not take him, so I'm going to make an appointment and take him. I'll follow up with the outcome as soon as I know. "

If it's a more in depth kind of Dr's visit, that has a more subjective way of assessing the necessity and with a bigger price tag (i.e. braces, therapy or ear tubes) then I would definitely go thru your attorney in order to resolve the issue. And to insure that he pay half.

He still gets a say - even on the little stuff - but sometimes it's up to *us* to not get all caught up in the nonsense. When a kid gets sick or has mouth pain, they got to the Doctor/Dentist. It's not really an arguable stance to "not allow" the other parent to take the kid based on the logistics of the court order that says you have to agree on medical care.

He used to cancel vacations I was looking forward to.  So I brought that up in counseling an it stopped, but he began canceling other things to get me back.

This is probably why you're getting divorced.

Don't carry the heartache of this kind of stuff with you into the coparenting relationship. It's up to you to change the dynamic of how this "new" relationship is going to function... . and not allow the dysfunction that was in the marriage.

You make it all about the kids. He'll have to follow your lead at some point.

~DG

[Forward2free]

I know what you mean Momtara. I have sole custody but in Aust I need dad to sign the passport papers. He has not signed them for 4 years, just because he can stop me. He has in effect, denied a holiday for his kids, but he sees it as punishing and controlling me. I need to take him to court to get it changed. Judge will definitely grant me a renewal, but the hoops I have to jump through are ridiculous and expensive. 

I think it is about revenge and about control.

BPD/Nxh is not able to stop much because he has limited access, but he still tries to make things difficult where he can. I am lucky to have the kids full time, but his access will increase soon and I know there will be more issues.

Unfortunately, they are used to us being compliant and quite like the power play. The only way to stop it is to firm up your boundaries so that he can't affect your appointments.

Are you telling him too much?

Can you stop telling him about the appointments prior and give him an update after?

Can you tell the dentist/doctors that they put a note in and do not accept request for changes without conferring with you first?

I had a protection order for 4 years which prevented BPD/Nxh making contact with anyone related to my business/personal/kids appointments etc. Legally no one was able to give our information about my or the kids appointments. I don't have the order now, but my boundaries are in place and we don't talk or discuss anything together and I only email if I need to legally.

[goldylamont]

In his mind, he probably doesn't see it as revenge.  In fact, he has said as much.

my thoughts are, if it feels like revenge to you, then that's absolutely what it is. i think it's important to trust your instincts and feelings more than whatever misinformation he's feeding you, about him not seeing his behavior as revenge. the problem is that pwBPD are such good manipulators that it's very difficult most of the time to ever figure out their true motive behind their behaviors. i know my ex sought revenge/punishment--and was aware of it. some people have caught their BPDSO's flat out when they actually boast about doing things to dole out punishment and revenge. yes this person is mentally ill, but doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. i think it would be best to treat the situation just how it feels to you--if it feels like revenge, then accept that's what it is and don't spend any energy doubting yourself. in a sense this form of gaslighting you and getting you to doubt yourself is still part of the punishment he is trying to dole out. i would trust yourself, your lawyer, and the last person posting about how to handle the situation. you may never be able to prove our exH is conscious of his behaviors but may do you justice to only judge him by how he behaves than what he's actually saying about it.

[jollygreen]

My ex was very vindictive. If I was doing something she didn't like, she would do the same back ten fold. Wouldn't know what i was doing and she wouldn't tell me. It was very demeaning and emasculating.

[momtara]

Someone mentioned telling the doctor or dentist's receptionist not to allow anyone else to change appointments.  I just found out that this is something I can do.  I didn't realize that.  So I am starting to do that.

DG's comments are true - I bend over backwards to let him have a say in everything so that he feels involved. It's never enough.  And telling him about an appointment afterward would just drive him to more craziness.

I guess my real concern is not about the appointment per se, but that this will escalate.  If he can do things that hurt the kids, in order to get back at me, then what's next?  When we were living together, he left our baby in the middle of the floor a few times to scare me.  OK, not like he hit her or anything, but I just wonder if someday he will get triggered about something when he has his visitation, and ... . well, I dunno.  Today it's canceling appointments.  Tomorrow it's something scarier.

[allibaba]

Hi Momtara,

Aren't you so happy that you decided not to give him another shot

My only comment is:  try to stay in today.  Its really easy to get caught up in WHAT IFs especially with triggered BPD spouses but we are more effective parents when we don't let them manipulate us. 

Cancelling an appt is silly... . but its not completely insane.  Its worse that your son has mouth pain... . and I am sorry that he's going through that.  But going from 'canceling the dentist appointment' to 'something scarier' is a big leap.  I'd like to think that there would be more troubling behavior before he starts putting your kids at risk to upset you.  I don't know.  You know him best.  I just know that up until the end of July my husband was doing things to manipulate me into thinking that he didn't care about our son.  In reality, he was just trying to get a reaction out of me.

[Forestaken]

he coldly canceled a necessary dentist appointment for my son and didn't even tell me.  He knew I had been waiting for the appointment and our son was complaining of mouth pain.

My s2bx+dOCD+uBPD would "forget" about medical appts then raise a stink

  He used to cancel vacations I was looking forward to.  So I brought that up in counseling an it stopped, but he began canceling other things to get me back.

She would "find" a list of chores that suddenly "needed" to be done the day before vacation.

Anyway, does your ex get revenge?  If you were able to stop it, did it escalate in another way?

Be mentally and emotionally prepared for a monkey wrench to be thrown in the plans

[DreamGirl]

DG's comments are true - I bend over backwards to let him have a say in everything so that he feels involved. It's never enough.  And telling him about an appointment afterward would just drive him to more craziness.

I lovingly refer to the pwBPD in my life as the "unfillable cup". It's a lesson a lot of us learn the hard way - we can't help them "feel" better. So it's not really about doing X so he'll do Y. It's more about living your values and doing what you think is right. You think it's important that BOTH parents are included in the lives of your children and you think it's important that he be included in the medical aspects of their lives. So keep including him. Live that value. It's OK if he thinks you don't do enough - cause he probably "can't" ever think you do enough.

I also agree with allibaba - it is a pretty big leap from being silly to being dangerous for the kids.

A pwBPD tends to be an emotional based decision maker.  Like in your situation, Dad's process was: she got full custody = I "feel" powerless = I "am" powerless = I want to not be/feel powerless = I'll cancel a Dr. appointment.

I think that's why it's so important that we, as the mentally healthy parent, not get caught up in this kind of stuff.  I'm very aware of when I get all riled up about situations. A lot of the times, it's my own reactions that make the situation worse - especially when the intent of the pwBPD in my life was to get a reaction.    

Going thru a divorce is really, really, really stressful. We get all caught up in our emotions and our emotional reactions when under that kind of stress. It's why I suggest that you do your best to keep yourself grounded and not necessarily go with how you "feel". My attorney was really good at helping me not fly off the handle at silliness. So was my best friend. My mom didn't help in that though. That's why it's important to surround yourself with more then just "validators" of how you feel, but also those who will help you stay in a balanced state of mind.

The WiseMind Workshop talks a lot about this and OUR own habitual responses to situations that may being created by the disorder souls our lives.  We can't control our former spouses, but we sure can learn to control our own reactions to them.

momtara, you're afraid of what he's going to do, and like allibaba said - you know him best. For me, I know that the pwBPD in my life has a far worse bark then a bite. She also tends to get all fired up and then calm right back down within a few days. She suffers from BPD so she doesn't regulate emotions very well... . but lucky for the rest of us - emotions are fleeting.

It's not fair that you live your life waiting for the other shoe to drop. So far, your court case seems to be resulting favorably for you. You care about your children and what's best for them. You're trying to take care of yourself and at the same time, you also care about their father's wellbeing too. That's all good stuff. So I'd keep up the good work.  

From our workshop:

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind

What is mindfulness all about?  In the simplest sense, we all develop from time to time, thinking patterns that do not serve us well.  When we do, we are easily "triggered" -- having non-constructive reactions to specific words or actions based on prior experiences.  We've all been there - resentment, pessimism, defensiveness, impatience, closed mindedness, distrusting, intolerance, confrontational, defeated... .

Mindfulness is a type of self-awareness in which we learn to observe ourselves in real time to see and alter our reactions to be more constructive.

Thought is the Building Block of Our Reality

Cogito ergo sum ( "I think, therefore I am" is a philosophical Latin statement proposed by René Descartes. This is one of those things that is so obvious, and so rarely considered. The world around us is what we perceive in our minds.  The blind man lives in a ark world.  A paranoid man lives in a fearful world.   A loving man lives in a loving world.  

We are how we think.

The Mind is a Friend, Lover, Torturer, and Teacher

Our mind is the source of all misery and of all pleasure. People don’t effectively hurt our feelings or anyone to inspire us. People can offer us their opinions,  it is only that which the mind decides has any relevance that we take on for ourselves.  Only the mind that can complement us, insult us, lift us, or destroy us.

We can influence this.

Reasonable/Logical mind, Wise Mind, Emotion Mind

Wise Mind is that place where reasonable mind and emotion mind overlap.  It is the integration of emotion mind and reasonable/logical mind.

[momtara]

I want to cry.  You guys are so great and wise.  Thank you. 

It is just shocking to me that he could do something hurtful to our son in order to get back at me.  When he isn't being triggered, he seems to love him.  It was just so cold and not something that would ever enter a normal person's mind.

You kind of confirmed what a few shrinks and lawyers have said to me - that I am making a big leap.  But I don't want to take the easy way out if I need to be concerned about his behavior.  He has always loved to cancel things just to get back at me.  Thanks for reassuring me.  I think right now I've gotten the best custody arrangement I can have, and I have dedicated a lot of time to thinking about all of this, so I feel better right now.

Alibaba, yes, I know that for a few months I was wavering about taking him back - but I still in some ways want to make sure he has incentive to get better.  I was never considering letting him back into the house until he really made long term consistent changes that I felt comfortable with, but I was trying to figure out if there was any hope of him changing.  My dilemma was that I am the only real chance to give him a little hope.  But now I know that I have to stay on course with the divorce, be consistent, and if he wants to go and get the right help on his own someday and tell me he has really changed, I can always talk to him then.

[motherof1yearold]

Yes, my ex was vengeful and vindictive.

When we split up he stole my wedding band (I paid for so he had no right to it) and a few very expensive electronics... .

also ripped up/ stole many of my clothes, mainly skimpier items.

Wouldn't let our daughter go to her great great grandmothers 96th birthday party... . (loves to be in control)

On our daughter's 2nd birthday recently , he brought her back late and handed me a bag that had a pair of her shorts peed in with my mail he opened underneath it. Also threatened to call the cops on her birthday... .

I could go on and on. It's really stressful.  I truly believe my ex is without conscious. Definitely living in fear of whatever move he pulls next.

[Ishenuts]

My uNPDexH is very vindictive. His favorite saying is "Revenge is best served cold", which I heard many many times throughout our marriage directed at anyone who dared to "cross" him. He lives for revenge, and when he thinks he's gotten revenge, and "won", is when he is at his happiest. I am his latest target. 

Whenever he can disrupt things to make it difficult for me, he will. And many times it affects our children. The latest example is finding a therapist for the children. We interviewed one therapist that would have been a great fit for them. But because he knew I liked her, and she said things which showed that she was "on to" him and his games, decided we had to look elsewhere. Of course he didn't admit that was the reason. His excuses were ridiculous, and I called him on it. He basically said, "Too bad. We have to agree on the therapist and I say no" We have been playing this game since mid-June, and in the meantime our children are hurting and need someone to talk to.

He has said, even in front of our parental coordinator, "I want to financially ruin you" and "You already get 50% custody, and you're not getting one minute more", when I wanted to enforce our Right of First Refusal. He knows I am living financially on the edge, so he will send me bills for items that he buys for the children without any discussion beforehand. He will tell the children, "Your mother doesn't care so she won't pay" for this or that. He makes 3x what I make, but is taking me to court to try to increase the "cap $$$" that I am obliged to pay for extracurricular activities. And the resulting lawyer fees I can't afford. And he has the $$$ and power to do this as long as he wants.

And as he sees his covert attempts to alienate the children are not working, the instances of revenge will increase.

Hurting the children will not be physical, but will be psychological and emotional. That's my fear. 

[momtara]

Wow, that's awful.  You deserve more than 50/50!  I think in time, the kids will see through him, but that's awful.  The therapist thing is the kind of thing my hubby would do too.  Sometimes I can beg him and when he calms down, he says ok.

[Cmjo]

This reminded me of a bizarre example of revenge. He never wanted me to cut our sons hair, to keep it long like a footballer, in spite of a constant problem with nits!

When i was in the UK with the kids, he was at home in Italy, I rang to say we had on the spur of the moment gone to a barbers for a haircut and our son looked gorgeous!  He whimpered a bit but I didnt think he would make a big deal of it. But on returning to Italy and arriving back home, I saw he had pruned "my apricot tree" into a bizarre round shape, and as I got out of the car with my mouth open in shock he held out his arms and siad " but it looks gorgeous!"

Warped or what?

My dad (who has no real tact when it comes to talking about mental health issues ) would say "off his onion".

[motherof1yearold]

This reminded me of a bizarre example of revenge. He never wanted me to cut our sons hair, to keep it long like a footballer, in spite of a constant problem with nits!

When i was in the UK with the kids, he was at home in Italy, I rang to say we had on the spur of the moment gone to a barbers for a haircut and our son looked gorgeous!  He whimpered a bit but I didnt think he would make a big deal of it. But on returning to Italy and arriving back home, I saw he had pruned "my apricot tree" into a bizarre round shape, and as I got out of the car with my mouth open in shock he held out his arms and siad " but it looks gorgeous!"

Warped or what?

My dad (who has no real tact when it comes to talking about mental health issues ) would say "off his onion".

Wow! I share a child with my ex husband who is BPD. She is 2 yrs old, and at the time had never gotten a hair cut. It just needed a simple tiny trim because it was looking unhealthy and really uneven. I *barely* snipped it, just one little piece on one side that was uneven and what not. He saw it and threatened me, told me he would modify the parenting plan and to never touch her hair again. I listened. A few months later she came back from his house with all her hair hacked off.

Control freak. Ugh.

[momtara]

OK, now both of those stories are scary.  Did you try to do anything about it?  Take a picture of the weird hair?  Or do judges not care about this type of revenge?

Did you ever worry your hubbies would hurt the kids to get back at you?  Why or why not?

My plot has sickened.  Today I talked to hubby and he started with "I never canceled his dentist appointment."  I told him that even had texts from him saying he changed it yet again.  I showed him the texts.  He responded with, "No, that's what I wanted to do.  I never did it."  He was in complete denial.

NOw I wonder what he could do next and either forget or deny.  He can't control his actions and then he modifies his memory to justify or get out of what he did.  So what could he do next?

Are they all like this, and will it escalate?  I still wonder.

[motherof1yearold]

I mean yeah, I have pictures of her hair being hacked off now VS what it looked like before. Now it's so short it cannot go into a pony tail. Argh.

I can honestly say a judge would not give a hoot about her hair being hacked off. even it was totally shaved off, judge wouldn't care.

Sorry to hear your hub is gas lighting you!

[momtara]

yes, he does gaslight... . I don't think he does it to make me think I'm crazy... . he does it to cover up his actions.  

Have any of you ever feared your hubby hurting the kids to get back at you?

[motherof1yearold]

I've feared it... . and honestly, I think he has already done it. My 2 year old (then 1) came back with her hands burned. He threatened me and told me we were going back to court and that I must have did it... . when he had her for days and her hands were definitely badly burned, while with him.

I honestly and truly fear my ex will kill our child if I ever get full custody. I trust my gut and I just know.

[momtara]

And did you try to document it and tell anyone, or there was no point?  Why was nothing done about that?  It just sounds ridiculous!

[ForeverDad]

My plot has sickened.  Today I talked to hubby and he started with "I never canceled his dentist appointment."  I told him that even had texts from him saying he changed it yet again.  I showed him the texts.  He responded with, "No, that's what I wanted to do.  I never did it."  He was in complete denial.

Now I wonder what he could do next and either forget or deny.  He can't control his actions and then he modifies his memory to justify or get out of what he did.  So what could he do next?

Are they all like this, and will it escalate?  I still wonder.

I doubt he 'forgot'.  Come on, get real.  Okay, yes, I know it is said that they truly can come to believe their own distorted version of history, but I at least have some level of skepticism about that.  You even showed him his own text and he still denied that reality.  It's just too smoothly and glibly done for it to always be forgetfulness IMO.  Something similar happened with me.  The weird thing is, this happened about 5-6 years into our marriage, long before she became overtly and drastically PD-ish.  Yikes, the seeds were sown years before when I thought she was merely becoming increasingly 'high maintenance".  In hindsight... .

I recall she had told me about some conflict she had with a co-worker and what she wanted to do about it.  Well, about a week or so later she was called in by her supervisors to discuss exactly that and I was with her.  Afterward she was angry with me, "Why didn't you speak up and tell them I would never have done that?"  I answered, "That's precisely what you told me a few nights ago that you were going to do!  How in the world would that exact scenario have been complained about if you didn't do it?  How could I help you deny it?"  I see now that she wanted me to side with her no matter what I felt the truth was.  It got worse years later after our child was born, in her view, to be reasonable or refraining from  blaming someone as she demanded meant I was taking the others' side.

[motherof1yearold]

And did you try to document it and tell anyone, or there was no point?  Why was nothing done about that?  It just sounds ridiculous!

about the hands, or the hair? The hands burning incident , I definitely contacted him about ... . he totally gas lighted me and somehow told me that it happened on MY WATCH... . even know he just had her for 4 days... . and even if it did happen with me, why the hell would i be asking him how it happened?

That's just precisely how crazy he really is.

[momtara]

No, I just mean did you try to tell the court or someone about that.  That is dangerous.

[momtara]

Yes, true about the texts.  It worries me because it allows him to believe he can lie his way out of anything.  "Oh, I didn't accidentally give the kids an extra dose of medicine.  I swear, I didn't!"

If this was just about canceling appointments, it would be frustrating but not as alarming as the idea that it could get worse.