Can BPD forgive?

[djkrock]

Can a BPD actually have true forgiveness?  In a marriage, both parties make mistakes.  That is human nature.  People aren't perfect.  I can forgive and forget.  But it seems that I am never truly forgiven.  The words are said, but in actuality not only am I not forgiven but the event actually gets worse and worse each time it is brought up.  This is the one thing that makes me want to give u.  Through the years will the list just get longer and longer and my "atrocities" more and more evil.  I'm not perfect.  I can walk on eggshells but I never know when that next evil thing will happen.  For example, yesterday was not a good day, and I had to leave the house.  All the way out the door I was telling her that I was just going out to calm things down and that I would return as soon as she called me.  That turned into a complete abandonment in her eyes.

Is this  just a vicous circle?  Can a BPD truly forgive?

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[mcc503764]

Is this  just a vicous circle?  Can a BPD truly forgive?

The funny thing is that since they are so good at mirroring and are "chameleon - like," it's hard to come up with an honest response to your question... .

I know personally speaking, that her actions against me really hurt me for a long time.  They caused a great deal of actual Pain in my chest.  The pain has since subsided, and the rumination has as well... . is this "forgiveness" or rather a point of "indifference" for me?

I think that they can play the "forgiveness" role long enough to get what they want/need at the time, but the first sign of any past behavior/words/actions on our part, they will use the "past hurts/wrongs" against us... . almost like a trump card in euchre? 

In my opinion, this isn't really true forgiveness on their part.  You cannot possibly force another person to be something that they are not I guess... . Once I accepted that, truly accepted that, I was able to move forward with my life again!

MCC

[waverider]

Hard to say. In my personal situation forgiveness, resentment and general grudges are different than in regular folks. Mainly in the sense that things are over and in the past very quickly with very little resentment and grudge carrying.

However, they can be pulled out again in the future and used as convenient vehicles to express the feeling of the moment, almost as though they are just used to add extra weight. On the surface they sound like deep hurt, but the issue is not as deep as say it would have been if I had brought up an old issue in that way. To me it would have been festering. To my partner it is a hardly thought about issue that is brought out for effect, then put away again.

I find those moments relatively easy to ignore now as they are just words added for emphasis

[djkrock]

Thanks... . I guess part if all of this is getting thick enough skin to make it through the initial barrage.  I forget things so quickly and pack them away, its really hard when they pop back up on a continuous basis.  Bur I think that is the part of the BPD's signature.  Since they havve a lack of trust and a constant fear if abandonment they hold into any item no matter how insignificant to prove that their feelings are justified.

[waverider]

It becomes easier to handle once you recognize it for what it is and it almost becomes predictable. Engaging it only makes it worse and to them validates it as a tool to engage you making the projection a more effective method of coping.

Cutting off a pwBPD's avenue to use projection as a form of soothing is an essential first step to get them to take any sort of ownership of their problems. Without that ownership there is little chance of starting on a healthy path towards improvement.

[Cloudy Days]

I think this is something that is different for every incidence and also is different for every BPD. My husband for example will bring up some things that I have done when we first got together 8 years ago. He pulls this stuff out when he's really out of it. Other blow ups he has had that I actually did something wrong he hasn't brang up once so I never know with him. Sometimes I feel like I will never live something down but other things that I figure he would never let go of he doesn't bring up.

[Cipher13]

My first instinct to "Can BPD forgive?" is ... . no.  I think sometimes at certain times that can see there words or actions might be hurtful or might be unpleasant but personally speaking in my sistuation I havn't seen it. 

I am still asked to apologize for things having been done years and years ago. Do soethign wrong and they turn their elephant memories on. Heck I can't remeber some of the things as clearly. To my wife they just happened. "Just let it go"  well that ain't in there vocabulary at lease not in my world.

[MammaMia]

Cipher

I think you are on to something here.  When pwBPD feel as if we have hurt or disrespected them, they hold on to the pain forever.  Because of their lack of core values and sense of self, they cannot accept an apology and let it go.  The wound is too deep.  It is also a tool to make nons feel guilty and guilt is an awesome tool for them... . as we all know.

When they bring up past issues over and over, it is up to us to validate that they are worthy people.  They will always play the victim, it is part of the disorder.  Yes, it can be extremely annoying, but it is what it is.  This is a good place for boundaries as well. 

For a disorder that causes pwBPD to live "in the moment", they never forget a past incident.  Do they forgive?   I really cannot answer that.

[lostandunsure]

I guess I have a slightly different opinion on the "Can they forgive" question... . In my mind and in my interactions with my wife, if I do something wrong, apologize and she forgives me, I try to learn from the experience and not do it again. I honestly do think that she has forgiven me, the best that she can and as she understand forgiveness.

The problem is that she doesn't forget that it happened. Because I did something wrong, it places an unwanted bookmark in her mind at that time frame. "He let me down at x point at time by doing z". Most of the time, she doesn't think about it, because she has truly forgiven me. When she emotionally dysregulated, all bets are off. The emotional skills that most people have lets them know that using a prior "offence" that has been forgiven is unacceptable, is turned off, anything is fair game for someone who loses control in this manner... . Worse, since I let her down in the past, and she's triggered by her abandonment now, all those bookmarks in her mind start glowing red hot... . "He's letting me down again... . Remember when he let me down here and here and here... . ?" She can't help it and usually will feel terrible afterwards, when she's calmed down for bringing up things that she knows have caused pain.

I hate comparing pwBPD to little children, but unfortunately, in many cases it works. This is one of those cases. When a child "forgives" you for something you've done wrong, they really do mean it, but if something similar happens again, they will be reminded of it and since they have black and white thinking, and you are ALL BAD again, the forgiveness is no longer valid, and they need to work through it all over again.

Another perspective; when I'm in an argument with my wife, there's a little voice in my head that says ":)on't say something you can never take back." because I know that I can push the right buttons to cause serious damage, just with words. We all do this, we know things we can say and things we can never say. My wife doesn't have that filter when she's dysregulated. She tries at times and I can see that she tries, but most of the times, she can't stop herself. I have become "painted black" and everything is fair game. When she's calmed down, sometimes she realizes what she's said and sometimes not, but she's back to the point where I'm still forgiven for that past offence.

Maybe the BPD in your life truly did forgive you, but when she dysregulates, she can not remember what that means.

[Cloudy Days]

I also wanted to add, one of the true times I really upset my husband was a direct consequence of his actions. If he hadn't done what he did then I wouldn't have had any reason to do what I did. He had to go to court for this for over a year. Every single time he had to go to court he would bring up what I did to an extreme and totally just open the flood gates on the issue. He somehow never remembered what he did that led to what I did. Now that the incidence is over, he hasn't brought it up even once. So basically, if the wound is opened it's like he feels hurt for the first time. But if the core wound is never mentioned again, he won't bring it up because it's something he has forgiven me for. It was only when he felt threatened that he blamed me for it.

[wishfulthinking]

Cloudy Days... . your last post could mirror my life right now.  My uBPDh has painted me black over my decision to call for help over his suicide threat and actions.  No matter that the reason I called is due to HIS ACTIONS AND WORDS. 

[waverider]

Cipher


When they bring up past issues over and over, it is up to us to validate that they are worthy people.  They will always play the victim,

Be careful here, if they are feeling unworthy, rearrange the above sentence and what do you think you have taught them to do in this scenario?

Validation is obviously a useful tool, but it can go wrong if you are not careful.

Short of boundaries there is a point where I turn validation off and let "her stuff" be "her stuff", otherwise you can start enabling neediness & projection.

I can't fix everything, and don't try. I choose what to attempt to fix and what is not worth the effort. That way it becomes a choice not an obligation and reduces resentment for being stuck in the fixer role. I am sure you are used to screaming to yourself "Why is it always up to me to do XYZ etc"... Truth is its not. The option for XYZ not to be done is always there. You choose to do XYZ because it brings a better result for you, not because you have to.

Yes I know it's spin doctoring, but making us feel better is the bottom line as to why we are here in the first place.

Going back to the thread topic, can pwBPD forgive? Why does it matter? Because it makes you feel better. If their forgiveness (with all its questionable qualities) is not important to make you feel good, then it doesn't really matter, and thats one less thing to worry about.

It just is, and you are just you, and anyone else's opinion, blame or labels, they attach to you are part of "their stuff" not "your stuff". That is your choice.

Choice is what puts us in control of our lives

[MammaMia]

Waverider

Sorry, I do not think you got what I was saying. Perhaps, it was not worded well.

When my dBPDs brings up the same topic up over and over, I feel it is best to acknowledge that it is a valid concern to him, worthy of discussion.   I am not saying everything can be "fixed", but blowing him off just re-enforces feelings of rejection and anger.  My taking the time to listen and his being heard are ways  to validate his importance to me. 

These discussions often bring forward new information as to why he is upset about a past incident, and they provide an opportunity to share feelings on BOTH sides of the issue. 

Playing the "victim" is part of the disorder, and yes, it is a given we do not need to accept because it is their perception, not ours.   I did not mean to suggest validating victimization was good.

[yeeter]

This question reminds me of a conundrum:

"If someone says something that they really believe to be true (but it isnt) - is it a lie?"

So kinda similar with 'lack of forgiveness'.

Great advice by Wave:

Going back to the thread topic, can pwBPD forgive? Why does it matter? Because it makes you feel better. If their forgiveness (with all its questionable qualities) is not important to make you feel good, then it doesn't really matter, and thats one less thing to worry about.

It just is, and you are just you, and anyone else's opinion, blame or labels, they attach to you are part of "their stuff" not "your stuff". That is your choice.

Choice is what puts us in control of our lives

[waverider]

Waverider

Sorry, I do not think you got what I was saying. Perhaps, it was not worded well.

When my dBPDs brings up the same topic up over and over, I feel it is best to acknowledge that it is a valid concern to him, worthy of discussion.   I am not saying everything can be "fixed", but blowing him off just re-enforces feelings of rejection and anger.  My taking the time to listen and his being heard are ways  to validate his importance to me. 

These discussions often bring forward new information as to why he is upset about a past incident, and they provide an opportunity to share feelings on BOTH sides of the issue. 

Playing the "victim" is part of the disorder, and yes, it is a given we do not need to accept because it is their perception, not ours.   I did not mean to suggest validating victimization was good.

It is a hard balance and every person and every RS is different and the fine line between effective validation, and victimization in order to get a fix of validation is often blurred. The most important thing is to realize that the danger is there and use your judgement accordingly so as not to disable their ability to self soothe.

[CAD_50]

I've wondered the same thing... . I definitely believe that the storing away of past wrongs is part of the illness.  For my wife, I believe that she thinks that if she forgives me for something that she is saying that it was ok that I did it... . so she definitely doesn't want to do that.  I don't believe I've been truly forgiven for anything... . things that I legitimately did wrong and things that she has created that "I have done wrong".

[hergestridge]

This all sounds familiar, but on the other hand - the few times my wife has done things that she herself has admitted as being "wrong" (stuff that just she just couldn't talk her way out of), her brain simply went into short circuit. Relying on someone elses forgiveness was just too much for her. She ended up demanding instant forgiveness or instant break-up of our relationship. When I offered her the latter she realized she couldn't get what she wanted and "backed off". I pointed out the "double standard" of her not being able to forgive what others do to her and on the other hand her demanding instant forgiveness when she's done something wrong herself. It seems she is not sympathetic to the idea that the rules that apply to others also aply to her. She knows it - intellectually - but will only admit that she knows it when forced to (like in a therapy session when confronted).

[Stamp]

I've wondered the same thing... . I definitely believe that the storing away of past wrongs is part of the illness.  For my wife, I believe that she thinks that if she forgives me for something that she is saying that it was ok that I did it... .

Yes, I think this is exactly how my partner sees past wrongs, whether real or imagined.  One big stumbling block for us, because it comes up at least three or four times a year, is that I 'cheated on her' early in our relationship. 

In fact what happened was that we had had two dates, and I was definitely seriously interested in her, but she told me in no uncertain terms that she was neither interested in, nor ready for any sort of serious relationship and that she just wanted something casual.  She then informed me, in the morning after our second date, when I spent the night at her house, that she had just that morning decided to get back together with her old girl friend and try to make a go of it. 

AFTER that, I went away for the weekend with another woman, nothing serious, we just went away for a fun weekend, I was, as far as I knew, single, and therefore did not think I was doing anything wrong. 

A few weeks later my partner and I 'officially' decided to be in an exclusive relationship with each other, and I have been entirely faithful to her for the three years since then. 

However, even though she was not faithful to me until six months into the relationship, she feels that I cheated on her and hurt her and that she never cheated on me because the only times she was unfaithful were when we had had an argument and she had told me she was breaking up with me.

I've forgiven her that stuff, we're beyond it, but she does not seem even remotely able to forgive me for my weekend fling even though it was before we were in an exclusive relationship.  I think part of it is that she uses that to justify things that she did afterward. 

[dawnjd]

I am starting to really feel that true forgiveness will never be possible with my uBPDso. He is holding grudges against his dead father to this day and against people in high school that he will probably never see again. Because alot of his grudge holding is rooted in feeling abandoned and (as I learned from him this week) because he feels "Everyone will eventually leave him", holding that grudge just validates that fear. This is of course my interpretation.

I am realizing that everything I say will be brought back to me as an attack in the near future. Even if what I say is my feeling (An "I feel" statement), if that statement or my feeling hurts him, he will use it to attack in the future. A sure sign of not being able to sympathize or forgive someone for not behaving or feeling as he expects... .

[maxen]

the last time i saw my stbxw, she had one moment of insight. she said that she never forgives, never forgets, and maybe that's just the way she is.

also, this:

I pointed out the "double standard" of her not being able to forgive what others do to her and on the other hand her demanding instant forgiveness when she's done something wrong herself. It seems she is not sympathetic to the idea that the rules that apply to others also aply to her.

[bpdsupport]

I am in the same situation, things BPD believed to be true and they are blaming you for just keeps piling up... . it comes up all the time to blame you for it... I don’t think BPD forgives.

Here is how i see it, if a person with BPD truly believes in something untrue, of course she won’t be able to forgive….

[MrConfused]

Forgiving would imply that they understand why you reacted in a certain way. That would involve them taking part of the blame, something they can't do.

[elemental]

I was thinking about this today and have been feeling very low.  My guy has handed out a lot of grief to me, some of the worst emotional pain I have had in my life.  He insists on putting it in the past without acknowledging or discussing. Almost all of our conflict comes from him going to extremes and becoming really ugly towards me when I ask him to account for himself and shift some of his actions.

The episode that landed me here on this site was exactly that. It was a chronic issue that he was literally mocking me for being in pain and anxiety for, after some really hurtful things he did. I really simply may have finally learned that I can actually exit a situation before it explodes into something. He has not offered any apology for how nasty he was. I offered mine broadly for the event. Honestly, I am not at all sorry for what I said to him, I am actually sorry for the manner I delivered it.

He is continuing to refuse to speak to me, using smilies as substitute conversation. I have been here before, he is worn out and tired from the terrible things  the rest of us are putting him through, so he is "resting".  I gave up trying to sort anything out a couple days ago.

He may not bring up the event again or refer specifically to my actions, but he has this grudge pile going that he adds my sins to and points to as "your actions" and says I have no self control, and worry only about how other people treat me and not about how I treat others. Simply, table turning and blame shifting.

I would love for things to be going good for us, but I just don't have it in me to hover over the guy while he puts on a big display of condemning and rejecting. As the above poster said, anything else would require him actually admitting that he made some mistakes. Maybe in his own head he admits it, but I hardly ever see any admissions otherwise.

Wrote a book again  

[Pearl55]

A borderline is never ever able to forgive and forget! In fact they live in the past. They are the most vengeful people!

You forgive someone when you love them. Is a borderline able to love? NEVER

[hergestridge]

Wrote a book again  

You sure did, but it only left me confused! What did he do? What did you do? Why is he angry? Why are you angry?

You're being a bit abstract, and I'm curious now! :-)

[elemental]

Well I just showed you what I did: I JADEd the entire thread. I talk too much when I get anxious about things he is doing. I talk too much to HIM and he gets enraged then gives me the silent treatment. Most of the time these days I go quiet and go about my business, but every once in a while I entirely lose it and tell him off. Which I did this time.

The original reason for the upset is that he cheated on me with his ex wife a few years ago. He has children with her and she desperately wants him back. Occasionally he goes to see the kids and spends the night. I don't agree with the overnights. Every time he even goes there, she has a go at me.

[an0ught]

First and foremost people with BPD are people which means there is a broad spectrum of different personalities and behaviors. Can people forgive? Certainly.

Now here on the Staying board we have a broad spectrum of relationships with some being extremely distressed, some distressed, some up-and-down, some stable with flare-ups, some stable and some quite happy. When looking at the mental state of the pwBPD this is a spectrum spanning night and day. It's impossible to make generalizations here.

So let's look at the extremes. First a person that is highly distressed and partly or fully dysregulated.

  - Disassociation, splitting fragment the experience of time and place making it hard to have a stable basis for forgiveness.

  - Invalidating others leading to others invalidating pwBPD. So pwBPD feels continuously victimized which makes it harder to forgive.

  - Not able to reflect on self for lots of reasons. Not much awareness where boundaries of others are crossed and extreme sensitivity to violations of own boundaries.

  - Impulsive and instinctive acting leads to pulling out past events to express an emotions right now with FORCE. When fighting describing past events are choose not because past events are not forgiven but for their utility value of making a big impact today. This creates a strong impression that past events are never forgiven.

==> A lot less capable than average person on the street to forgive in a meaningful manner

So let's look at a person that is emotionally stable (like a pwBPD after gone through DBT).

  - No or less disassociation.

  - Having gone through DBT will have learned about forgiveness and has actively practiced it under guidance. Radical acceptance and with it forgiveness is part of DBT.

  - Mindful of self and limitations of others. Awareness where boundaries were and are crossed.

  - Mindful of impulses and avoiding of invalidating others.

==> One may even argue more able to forgive in a meaningful manner than the average person on the street.

This is of course a black and white picture of extremes and in reality a healing person will move from former towards the latter disposition.

There is real hope for some forgiveness but for it to happen the relationship needs to heal to some degree. Making forgiving a precondition keeps the healing process stuck as a pwBPD still suffering from major symptoms will not be able to face the pain of the past without dysregulation. The conflicts must have lost their intensitiy before it makes sense to expect meaningful progress here.

Last but not least it may be useful to reflect on our own ability to forgive at time.

[waverider]

an0ught brings up an important point, events which inspired high emotion are locked away in the memory almost like analogies, they are not dwelled on or leave simmering resentment. They are simply pulled out of the archives like an adjective may be used in your vocabulary, to add weight to the current emotion. Then put away again until the next time they might be useful.

It was simply a component for expressing the strength of emotion experiencing now, even if it seems totally unrelated in fact or detail.

This is why they can show intense hurt then quickly get over it. It goes back into storage.

Not sure about forgiveness, but can "move on" quickly to the next moment in time. The last one now no longer relavent

[Beloveless]

Very happy to find this thread. Still trying to determine for myself if my Girlfriend is BPD. I did not even think of the lack of forgiveness as a common trait... apparently it is. She holds onto anything and everything and twists whatever she can into something to hold against me when she is aggravated or use as  bullet points to blame me as an instigator. The weirdest things ... all of which I have explained over and over again and have stopped explaining.The time I went to went to see her at one of her trail races and I parked in the wrong parking space, when I bought her a sex toy for her Birthday and was insulted... . a toy that she repeatedly expressed a desire to own, looking at pictures of an old vacation with an ex, not spending time with her family ( a complete fabrication I have been to every family event that I was invited to... ), etc etc... .

[maxen]

She holds onto anything and everything and twists whatever she can into something to hold against me when she is aggravated or use as  bullet points to blame me as an instigator. The weirdest things ... all of which I have explained over and over again and have stopped explaining.

well beloveless, if you're wondering ... . yes, that's a common trait.