How long does it take to heal?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I know that there's no way anyone can really answer this - we're all different, our stories (though similar) are different, the pwBPD we love/loved are different.

But I am so frustrated with myself for still not being fully detached almost 11 months since our final break-up.  I don't want to be thinking about my exH and our relationship so much.  I really appreciate this forum but I'm on here every day just now and I want to be getting on with my new life (or my 'new normal' as Seeking Balance phrased it).

exH and I were together a long time and I realise that it will take time to grieve fully and I also realise that his instant remarriage hasn't helped matters but I am starting to get depressed that I'm not further on.

Today, I remembered some stuff he said and just curled into a ball of shame and cried - why am I still letting this happen?

[clairedair]

I know that there's no way anyone can really answer this - we're all different, our stories (though similar) are different, the pwBPD we love/loved are different.

But I am so frustrated with myself for still not being fully detached almost 11 months since our final break-up.  I don't want to be thinking about my exH and our relationship so much.  I really appreciate this forum but I'm on here every day just now and I want to be getting on with my new life (or my 'new normal' as Seeking Balance phrased it).

exH and I were together a long time and I realise that it will take time to grieve fully and I also realise that his instant remarriage hasn't helped matters but I am starting to get depressed that I'm not further on.

Today, I remembered some stuff he said and just curled into a ball of shame and cried - why am I still letting this happen?

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Claire,

     There are at least two people who regularly post here who are still dealing with their emotions after a 25 year period of no contact.  "Charred" had his job and marriage destroyed, then after 25 years he worked his way back up the ladder again, remarried and had a child.  Then the pwBPD came back and he lost everything again, including the love and respect of his daughter.  If that seems like a long time, I only mention it because I had 30 years of no contact and then found that when she re-entered my life I was exactly where I was when she left -- and this was after a relationship of only a few months. 

     This may sound disheartening, but that isn't the point.  The point is that these r/s exist outside of the logical part of the mind and thus kind of outside the space/time continuum, so to speak.  Time alone is really completely irrelevant.  The thing that counts is the work you do to get yourself better.  I am a different person than I was when I started my work after finding this site a few months ago.  You should, I think, expect little relapses to happen for a very long time, if not forever, but I already can laugh at myself about them, as they don't represent a real return to the dark days of my old feelings and obsessional thinking.  She can still get to me to some degree, but mostly I see her as if she were in a fish bowl, really.  Her behavior is something I can look at and feel (largely) unaffected, which is good since I now work with her.   

     By the way, I get that you may be pushing yourself into a depression as you punish yourself for not moving on.  This behavior is the very thing I'm talking about when I say you have to work on yourself.  As long as you hate and punish yourself for not being perfect you not only ruin your life with depression, but give the pwBPD a lot of power since he/she will continue to seem like the 'person who holds the key to your happiness', as they phrase it in the work here.  You must learn to give yourself what the pwBPD gave you during the idealization phase; unconditional love and total acceptance and admiration of everything about you.  When you can shut off the voice inside your head that criticises you for everything you ever did 'wrong' you'll be on the road to recovery from a number of salient mental issues.  I know it has worked that way for me, at least.  Good luck!

LT 

[clairedair]

Thanks LT

what you said about perfectionism hit the nail on the head - a trait that I thought I had worked on with some success but definitely rearing its ugly head again recently.  I feel weak and pathetic and there are lots of 'should' messages to myself.

I am trying to find a new T and aware that I am not making a huge effort to do this.  My excuse is that I don't have the money but I think part of me is resisting admitting that I still need to see someone when I previously saw a T for years during the rollercoaster times.  It's another reminder that I stayed in the fog for years even after I knew about BPD (he's not diagnosed but it's the only thing that makes sense to me). 

I am ashamed that I reconciled with him over 10 times over a period of seven years.

I am ashamed that I allowed him to return to a relationship with me when he had a relationship with another woman (same one) every time he left and at least one 'fling' (I suspect the new wife is the ex-fling though this was denied). 

I am ashamed that others see him all loved up and happy and it looks like I must have been the problem because he came back to try again and couldn't stay with me - he just needed the right woman.

I am ashamed that I haven't stuck to boundaries about finances, my extended family and, most importantly, his verbal and emotional abuse.

Toxic shame.

Consciously, I know I'm an OK person. Very OK.  But my past behaviour and current messy feelings suggest that subconsciously I believe otherwise.  Definitely need another T 

[DesertChild]

Dear clairedair,

I understand how that it is hard to face a T and make excuses. (See my recent thread where I did just that) Even being free of pwBPD, I still have to work on myself even as my life has evened out.

Healing takes time, patience and no amount of intellectualism often helps that. It's slow, and there is shame involved, but I think with the right T and the ability to admit to yourself you have a problem that you want to fix, things can get better.

We are all different. And how we arrived in that vulnerable place doing those things that we felt were shameful is worth exploring... . not for the pwBPD, but for ourselves. Learning to get back to yourself in any breakup is often recommended as the number 1 thing to do. In this case it's just harder to cope with. Let yourself that space without others peering in, even if it's for a little while.

[eeyore]

why am I still letting this happen?

I watched a video by Karla McLaren, it was about shame and guilt and how it relates to self acceptance.  She talks a lot about perspectives of shame and guilt.  Generally both are feelings that should be healthy but society and culture make them negative and unhealthy for people who struggle with self acceptance.  And I'm not sure self acceptance is the right term.  I think there's a better term that could describe shame and guilt as character building in a positive manner.   Self esteem, Self soothing? Anyway maybe too a google search on her name and see if good info comes up?  Her book is about learning about your feelings.  Understanding what those feelings are telling you.  And I think she offers examples of actions to help you embrace those feelings and move beyond.  I'm going to look into it for myself as well. Might be good for me.  :-)

I think it's possible that you are letting this happen because you haven't learned how to deal with the negative parts of shame and guilt.  Hence why I wrote the above info. 

Sorry, I'm not doing a good job of putting my thoughts in letters.  I hope you understand what I'm trying to communicate.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Clairedair,

You are a warrior, you have a kind heart, and you are deserving of good things in life.  This is the truth. 

[seeking balance]

Today, I remembered some stuff he said and just curled into a ball of shame and cried - why am I still letting this happen?

oh Claire - it's ok to cry... . but shame takes work to overcome.

The definition I like distinguishing between shame and guilt:

shame - I AM (bad, flawed, etc)

guilt - I DID (somthing bad, etc)

Core self worth - we are all human and we are all flawed and perfect being flawed- is essential to getting shame out of our bodies.

So, it doesn't just go away - it takes diligence, affirmations, positive self talk, letting ourselves have a "pat on the back", forgiving ourselves.

Brene' Brown - The Gifts of Imperfection might be a good read for you right about now.

It takes as long as it takes, be kind to yourself - you know?

The same summer my ex moved out before I filed for divorce, one of my best childhood friends husband died suddenly in a car accident.  BPD divorce and death are both very traumatic... . 3 years later, nobody would question if she had a weak moment and cried - trauma is trauma and it takes as long as it takes.  You were married and had kids together, it is ok to feel sad at times.

You are worth being kind to clairedair - let yourself be sad when you need to be, it is ok.  But also, make sure to tell yourself positive self talk like you would a wounded child - reparent that wounded child within clair.

Peace,

SB

[charred]

I think the healing needed may not be for the BPD r/s alone.

At first it just hurt like crazy... and I ruminated and wallowed in the muck... . easy to see the pwBPD as the problem and source of the pain.

The connection with a pwBPD is intense... and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why it persisted so long... . as was pointed out, my pwBPD came back after over 25 yrs and the attraction was still 100% of what it was when I was young... . despite my pwBPD having aged ungracefully... . she was older and less attractive than my wife, yet I felt powerless to resist her.

Eventually figured it out... . attachment theory explains a lot... . BPD is an attachment disorder, and I think we nons... have attachment issues as well. In my case my mother is cold/awkward toward small kids. Her mother died when she was 5(giving birth to her littlest sister), her father was drafted in to war and she was dumped on her grandparents and stuck with much of the work of raising her two younger sisters... . so... little kids are traumatizing to her. As a kid I was always a bit anxious... and never understood it, was diagnosed ADHD, but I think the fidgeting came from anxiety... and is avoidant/disorganized attachment. So the things that happen when you are traumatized early vary a bit, but one of them is disassociating from feelings/emotions... and doing your best to avoid situations where you might face bad feelings/emotions... . like close interpersonal relationships. After a while you kind of can keep people at a distance... maintain professional/business like arms length relations... . at least that is what I did. Folks moved every few years and whatever friends I had I lost and then had to start over... each time with less as I withdrew more and more. To compensate I told myself I was independent and threw myself in to studies and accomplishments... . but my heart wasn't in them, as they were things others wanted me to do.

The pwBPD... ignored the boundaries that kept most people at arms length, scaled the wall I put up to protect myself ... . and got close to me, connected deeply. I think I accepted sex as a substitute for real intimacy... . the combination of idealizing, mirroring and love bombing seemed like unconditional love and I was hooked. After a little while my pwBPD was on a pedestal, and I was fully emotionally invested in her... . and I didn't know it, but had put her in the emotional position of a primary relationship... . like a parent... . good mother should be. Made plans for a life together, was happy, wanted kids... . and then her disorder kicked in and she abruptly dumped me. Few weeks later she showed up hanging on a neighbor... and I was suicidal/homicidal... never been as low in my life. Second time she showed up like that... I moved 1500 miles away, left family, friends, business, town I grew up in... to avoid doing someone in, 5 yrs later I was still depressed and hurting from it, but was dating and eventually married a girl that reminded me of her but was not disordered. 25 yrs later ... . lost a job, was trying to get one and got on FB and my pwBPD contacted me... no interest at all from me, but she insisted she needed to talk to me to explain why she had dumped me. Got on phone and her voice brought back 100% of the feelings... I bawled and within 5 mos was divorced and dating her... at first thought my life was finally on track. Within a short time we had issues and we both were going to make it work... . for 3 1/2 yrs I lived in the most hellish r/s I could imagine, she was nice rarely, but was an intense hater... . horrific... . longest argument was 7 hrs and it was me being berated and attacked most the time... have been in PTSD treatment over it all since the breakup.

So... my conclusion... . my ego said I was independent, but I was hurt and avoided connecting with people our of fear of being hurt and that lack of close connections is what left me with a hole in my soul, so to speak. The pwBPD seemed to fill it but was worst toxic person I could hook up with... . she made it through my defenses because of her disordered way of ignoring boundaries... . and her need and mine made for a perfect storm of nastiness. Blaming my mom is wrong... she didn't want to lose her mother and I am sympathetic... . she married my dad, who is a malignant NPD guy... . been estranged from him for over a decade now. So my FOO issues are pretty strong. Blaming my pwBPD... while easy to do, doesn't get me anywhere either. I am away from her, been NC for better part of a year and see her for who she is and accept that fully.

So how long does it take to heal... . from which thing? The BPD r/s gets to you as it triggers all kinds of childhood trauma, which is replayed over and over, the intensity of the emotions are not what you are used to if you have muted them and tried to avoid them for years... the hurt from the breakup dissipates slowly over time, but what is it you are healing from?

I think the whole issue is attachment, we have less than ideal secure early attachments and go on to be less attached to fewer people than we need to be... . and then get kicked hard by the BPD r/s.  So what does the healing need to be? Getting attached to people... . having genuine strong connections to friends, family, being open and able to make connections with strangers and feel the closeness of real intimacy... . not accepting the cheap substitute of sex... and building a loving r/s with someone that shares our values, is not disordered and knows who they are and values us from love... . not clings due to need. So healing is learning to connect to people... and when you are well connected I think you will be healed enough you won't be stuck pining for someone that was horrible to you but managed to get past your defenses.

Sound reasonable?

[charred]

I apologize for talking about me so much... its how I came to understand the BPD r/s... . I wasn't married to my pwBPD and didn't have kids with her. The additional family connection would no doubt make things even more intense and the breakup that much rougher. Was married for over 20 yrs and have a 12 yr old daughter who was 9 when the divorce happened... divorce is very traumatic, the BPD adds to the intensity. I don't think anything I said was off base... the issues that lead to super connection with a pwBPD seem to come from some kind of FOO issues and those seem to be attachment related, so connecting is still whats needed to heal the root cause of the issues.

Been seeing a T for last year... and he got me going with mindfulness and EMDR for the PTSD and has been helping me to be better at making connections. For all I know you are a lady with lots of friends and close family and little in common with me and my issues, but I think a lot of us are not close to many people and that is how the pwBPD seems to just fall in our lap.

[clairedair]

Many thanks for all your replies - really appreciated

Healing takes time, patience and no amount of intellectualism often helps that.

I am fascinated by BPD intellectually. This is helpful in that I am able to read about the disorder and learn.  It's not helpful that I read and read and analyse and analyse but don't look at my own psychology in as much depth.  So much easier to label someone else!  I also think that I believed I could 'fix' our relationship if I just learned enough - not consciously, but my inability to refuse to reconcile (every break-up and make-up was initiated by exH) suggests that at some level I thought it was possible for our relationship to be healthy if I just was clever enough.

how we arrived in that vulnerable place doing those things that we felt were shameful is worth exploring... . not for the pwBPD, but for ourselves.

I think this is the main work I have to do.  I am appalled at what I tolerated now I am further out of the fog but need to be careful not to further hinder my healing by submerging myself in the shame of allowing what I allowed.

I watched a video by Karla McLaren, it was about shame and guilt and how it relates to self acceptance. 

Hi eeyore - I found an article "The Gifts of Shame" and came across this quote "Shame is a form of anger that arises when your boundaries have been broken from the inside – by something you’ve done wrong, or have been convinced is wrong. "   I feel like I am experiencing two types of shame - the first as a result of something I've done wrong; the second as a result of being convinced I've done something wrong (or being myself is wrong).  For example, when I first experienced the full BPD wrath and was told "you're not what I hoped for", I flipped.  I was so angry with exH and so scared.  Long story short, I did a very BPD-like thing and developed an infatuation with someone who was showing an interest in me at work - a great distraction from dealing with what was happening at home.  It was an emotional affair rather than physical and short-term but it was very wrong.   I completely went against my own values and boundaries and was horrified at my behaviour so started to see a T.   I still feel it was wrong but because I made the best effort I could to apologise, learn from my mistake and forgive myself, I no longer feel knee-deep in shame about this.  The second source of shame - others convincing me I'm in the wrong or being myself is wrong - I'm finding harder to deal with. 

]I can 'control' the former type of shame in that it's all about me and if I learn from my mistakes, the shame shifts - I regain my integrity.  I can't control what others feel about me so I need to find some way, not of repeatedly trying to prove them wrong but a way to not care what they perceive/think me to be.  I've ordered something by Brene Brown (see Seeking Balance's post) to see if that helps with this.

You are a warrior, you have a kind heart, and you are deserving of good things in life.  This is the truth. 

Thanks PhoenixRising - I mentally pictured a warrior when reading this and will keep the image in mind!  We need to be warriors for ourselves now - I think we have tried so hard and so long for our SOs or our relationship that it's difficult to have the energy to fight for ourselves but we've a better chance of winning this battle!

oh Claire - it's ok to cry... . but shame takes work to overcome.

The definition I like distinguishing between shame and guilt:

shame - I AM (bad, flawed, etc)

guilt - I DID (somthing bad, etc)

I didn't cry until I was 40 years old (sign of weakness in FOO!) - sure have made up for it since.  One extreme to the other.  I hope to find a happy medium sometime soon 

Thanks for the heads up about Brene Brown - as mentioned above, I've ordered something today.

I think the healing needed may not be for the BPD r/s alone.

... .

Sound reasonable?

All of your post sounded reasonable (and don't apologise for the length - have you seen mine!  Just as well I'm not on Twitter - would not be able to keep to a certain number of characters... . ).

I was sad reading about your mum's childhood and the impact on yours.  Sounds tough.  I struggle a bit with the FOO issues link to BPD relationship in my case.  I would say I was fortunate enough to have been brought up in a close-knit, loving family with parents who I never doubted loved me.  I am still very much supported by them and a reasonably wide circle of good friends.  However, the big, generous family could hold the clue.  I was very much loved (still am) but there's rarely one-to-one time with my parents.  They were always looking after everyone.  I felt ashamed (there it is again!) that I wanted more attention when the people my parents were helping didn't have as much as I did.  My exH is like my parents - he's always helping others but in doing so was not around when I wanted him to be. Even if it was a family event like a wedding, he would be involved in the service so I would be sitting on my own.  How could I complain?  Would be selfish to spoil what others wanted wouldn't it... .   At other times, my exH would adore me... . I'd get all the attention I'd ever wanted - just wasn't consistent.

So, even the 'perfect' childhood can hold clues I guess.

charred - can't be easy to share what you've shared so just want to say that I appreciated it.  We may not have had identical experiences but you are right to suggest that I need to look beyond my relationship with exH.

take care, Claire

[eeyore]

I saw the Ted Talk by Brene Brown and it was very good she came across as very real.  It is one of the most watched Ted Talks.  I also watched another video in the self acceptance series by her.  In that series, while she made some good points that are worthy of thought she somewhat came across as a flake.  She talks a lot about her own self in a manner that I thought wasn't very flattering or inspirational.  To me she came across more like a psychology professor rather than a practitioner that helps a person overcome their obstacles.  So I have mixed opinions on her. 

Would you please give your feed back on the book to know if it's too "clinical" or if it's written in a manner that easy to relate and understand?  I thought the Walking on Eggshells books were well written with lots of examples on how to overcome obstacles I was having.

Also, I did more searching on Karla McL.  She started out being a psychic, which kind of made me laugh.  Initially when I saw that I thought quack in my head.  (I know not very nice. )  But she has some practical points about how that experience is tied into her Therapy and book writing. 

[Phoenix.Rising]

... . but there's rarely one-to-one time with my parents.  They were always looking after everyone.  I felt ashamed (there it is again!) that I wanted more attention when the people my parents were helping didn't have as much as I did.  My exH is like my parents - he's always helping others but in doing so was not around when I wanted him to be. Even if it was a family event like a wedding, he would be involved in the service so I would be sitting on my own.  How could I complain?  Would be selfish to spoil what others wanted wouldn't it... .   At other times, my exH would adore me... . I'd get all the attention I'd ever wanted - just wasn't consistent.

Clairdair, This part of your post stood out to me.  I think there may be some keys to your healing in your own words here.  It is not wrong for a child to desire, and need, fairly constant, consistent attention from a parent... to a certain age, of course.  I hear you saying you felt ashamed for a genuine need.  Somewhere you probably learned to identify a healthy need for connection (Charred talks about attachment and healthy connection, and I agree with him) with shame.  As in, it is wrong for me to feel this need, or even possibly I am bad because I feel this way.  Maybe I am weak because I have a need for attention?  I don't know for you, but for me a lot of this applies.

I am trying to learn that it is healthy and normal to attach to others, and to have the need to do so.  I believe we were made for relationship.  This is heavy stuff, but like you said, we have a better chance at winning the battle of being warriors for ourselves (including our genuine needs) than winning the battle with a pwBPD.  I don't think that battle is mine to fight.

[eeyore]

I can identify with unhealthy feelings from childhood.

Since I was a toddler I knew MY favorite color.  However, when you asked my mother what my favorite color was up until I was in my 30's she would repeatedly say a the a color (pink) which in fact was not my favorite color.  My mother made it crystal clear that knowing things like that was the least important of all the things in the world.  When I mean anything-- I mean she didn't know a thing about me.  She assumed that everyone should like and feel what she liked and felt. 

Often, she would negate  what I said. For example, I remember in my 30's discussing my favorite color and she still argued with me why she thought my favorite color was pink.  She would day, I wore a lot of pink ( as it is a flattering color on me.)  When I was in my teens I painted my room pink   Pink is HER favorite color.  If you tell her you are going to send her roses she'll say her favorite are the pink ones.   

In her mind she knew the right way to live and it was her way.  While she was a great provider and I lived a Disney childhood having everything I needed.  What I didn't develop was my own "Self".  I constantly didn't know what I liked for fear of criticism or guilt for standing up for what I liked.  Let me say I get along well with my mother she's a great person, but she isn't maternal or empathetic.  She was a good mother at most/all other areas just not in developing my "self".  I have had to do that myself. 

[Phoenix.Rising]

My mother sounds a lot like Eeyore's mother.  I believe my mom has BPD, but I am not saying that about Eeyore's mother. 

I don't know how many years I told my mom a certain size shirt was too big, and she would still get the same size every year.  I think it took her about 5 years to realize I don't eat red meat or chicken, and I'm still not sure she fully realizes it.  She does not seem to notice or 'care?' what I like.  I am supposed to like what she likes.  I do like some of the things she likes, but there many, many things that are attractive to me that are not to her.  I guess she thinks I am supposed to be an extension of her.  Bizarre.  This should be another thread.  Thanks for listening.

[charred]

 think we want to  believe that our families were perfect or perfect part of the time, but nearly everyone on these boards wouldn't be here if they had been. If you didn't cry till you were 40 and your family instills in you what "signs of weakness" are... . something is very off. Mentioned my mom losing her mother... as I think that had a lot to do with my connecting issues... . but dad was really something. Malignant NPD... vicious... . he was responsible for my grandmothers death, and laughed at her funeral... did his best to cause my wife to have a miscarriage... so I pushed him out of my life... and despite all that... . I spent years telling myself I was lucky, and had a good childhood, and few problems.

Avoided a T till I was breaking out with rashes from stress during my divorce.

Lot of my time I feel like... why am I wasting my T's time... I don't have any real problems... he could be helping someone that really needs it. Then I read "Healing Developmental Trauma"... and found out how much of what I considered "Me"... . was defined by false ego based defense mechanisms. I needed a T more than most people... but had difficulty accepting it, as I felt like I was supposed to just sail through an r/s from hell with a pwBPD... losing a couple really good jobs, 1/2 my earned retirement, more than 1/2 my stuff and my family in my divorce... . after all I had sailed through grandparents deaths, losing all my friends every couple years when my folks moved again and again, and their divorce... . without talking to anyone or letting anyone see me cry.

Time and time again the people I loved (my FOO)... did very mean or inconsiderate things and the number of people I opened up to, and the amount I was open dropped.

Thinking about clairdairs statements... . I have to be feeling shame for something... the phrase uncomfortable in my own skin comes to mind, but like everything always ignored it and concentrated on something else... . some accomplishment/diversion to pass the time.

Feel like I am doing better... but I wake up every morning about 5am and stay up till midnight till I am tired enough to fall asleep.

So are we on topic about healing still? I think we get past our BPD r/s in about 5-6 yrs ... thankfully it quits being all consuming far before that... however the FOO issues... we can get better and better, but I don't know that it has an end, where you can say I am healed. I posted quite a bit on connecting because I am concluding that after 5 decades I might change and heal some... but I really need to connect with people ... it is a priority over wallowing in old bad childhood stuff. Learning to stay present (mindfulness) and to feel the feelings I have and the emotions and work through them instead of running from them. That is an improvement over being numb.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I feel, and have felt, I am in a similar place as you, Charred.  And depending on our perception, it is not a bad place to be in.  Just rather difficult at times. 

Recovery or healing for me does not end in a point where I 'arrive'.  It is a journey.  I will never be fully 'healed'.  At least not on this earth.

[clairedair]

So are we on topic about healing still?

Yes - I think we are because if we don't look at what attracted us to these relationships and/or kept us in them, we risk undoing any healing by ending up in another similar relationship (not necessarily romantic - could be getting sucked in by a work colleague; a new friendship that starts off well)

It's late here and I'm tired so will read reflect more on the recent responses tomorrow.  I am very grateful to you all for taking the time to write.  It's helped switch the focus back to me as I ponder many of the points made.

take care,

Claire

[seeking balance]

My mom is "difficult" also.  A college boyfriend (before coming out) once said - your mom continually changes the bar as soon as you meet it.   Wow, what insight back then.

I also wasn't allowed to have my own opinion and such.  The thing is, I had gone to T in my 20's to deal with coming out and we touched on the parent issues, but it wasn't until I was in T because of my ex and I went to visit my mom during a separation did I have the immense "aha" - I called my T from 3,000 miles away - OMG, I married my mother!

The book, "will I ever be good enough" was a hard read, but eye opening.

No, we are not grieving simply a BPD relationship - those that married a pwBPD, likely have some deep, core grief work... . at least I did.

This topic is really timely for me right now - it is good for me to remember this stuff... . thanks for all who have shared.

[DesertChild]

If you focus always on why you came to the place you are, and never focus on how you can get to the place where you will feel better, I think you can't really heal.

For me, I can grind on for hours about how my Mom did this or that or the list of things she did, commiserate like the best of people, but it still won't separate me from her. It won't bring it back to focusing on what I need for myself to get to a better place.

And ironically I learned this from her.

She used to complain about her mother doing behaviors which she would repeat. Which made me think that wise people don't think that a behavior is auto bad or good, it's the ability to learn from other's mistakes as much as your own that makes you wise.

Since I couldn't get love from her, I found it in the wrong places. Sure. But after I learned that I had done that, it's on *me* to fix it. Take responsibility for it and step outside of what I've learned by learning new things. Remember reconnection to myself. And if I struggle, to not be ashamed to ask for help when I need it.

I found people who could give me that love and I found healing there in part. Because family is something you make, not something that's given to you.

So I think the real question is how are you planning to get to yourself and find your balance. Emotional, spiritual (which doesn't have to be religious, I see it as more a belief in yourself and your own well being), and intellectual.

From my intellectual side to yours, the stuff of inner balance, peace versus our responsibility to the world is the stuff that philosophy and religion are made of. It's not an easy battle, even for us that haven't been through Hell and back. It's just that for us that have been through Hell and back, that we need to remember our resilience, but to give ourselves time to do so.

Crap happens. Say someone craps in your house and then leaves for a year long vacation. It's in your living space. I think there is a point where you leaving it is irresponsible. Sure, don't let that person crap in your house again and learn how to bolt the door, but someone still has to clean up that pile on your floor and make it not smell.

So I would ask again, "What are your plans for you? How are you cleaning up the crap in your house no matter how it got there?" Oh and let your emotions be messy. 'Cause they are.

[eeyore]

- your mom continually changes the bar as soon as you meet it.   Wow, what insight back then.

I also wasn't allowed to have my own opinion and such. 

The book, "will I ever be good enough" was a hard read, but eye opening.

This topic is really timely for me right now - it is good for me to remember this stuff... . thanks for all who have shared.

OMG, Above describes exactly how it was for me.   If you got an A in school it wasn't good enough.  You had to have the highest A.  Then it was never how smart you worked but how hard you worked as well.  The theory is if you work hard enough at something then  you will be successful.  I spend/spent way too much time working hard on my relationships sometimes being a doormat, due to this unhealthy thinking.

I was so frustrated with my mother when I reached about 40, that I ordered 3 books on amazon and gave them to my mother to read.  After she read them she gave them back to me and I read them.  Mother-Daughter Duet-- Getting to the relationship you want with your adult daughter was the one that made a difference to my mother.  After she read it she called me and apologized for misunderstanding all the times I tried to tell her about validating my feelings.  Tears came to my eyes. 

Then she went to a church seminar for "younger" families on parenting geared toward our ethnicity.  She called me after that series of seminars to tell me all she had learned about how new mothers now should nurture each of their children independently to help them be happy adults.  There were more details but you can get the idea.  She said she wished they had classes like that when she was a young mother.  I said yes that would have been nice.  However, I distinctly remember those kind of classes when she was younger but she was very busy being a trailblazing career woman.  I'm proud of her because I know she made the world a better place for women.  She invented several things that were patented.  She worked in the male dominated engineering field all her life.  So I don't think she's intentionally unkind, I just think she's different than me.  I'm artsy fartsy creative empathetic and she's matter of fact like a Vulcan (Star Trek's Spock). 

I just wish it didn't take me this long to grow a pair and stand up for myself -- knowing I deserve to have my own likes, dislikes, and feelings.  It's been a lifetime of figuring out who I am and what matters to me.  It makes me angry that I was denied my own feelings and ultimately it became my own fault because I hadn't learned the lessons of "self" earlier. 

[bb12]

some great responses to your question on here Claire

I think it is one of those questions we have all thought of beyond a certain point.

I've had times away from here but come back. I have good days, weeks, and then another few of reflection again. Always with a   sense of WTF was that?

Today on my calendar at work there is a wonderful quote from Alfred Horn that says "The first thing education teaches us to do to is to walk alone".

Upon thinking further about this, I noted mention of the word walk. Not run. Not fly. Not live. Not exist.

And as much as it is meant for humans in general and society more broadly... . and the right for all to have a good education. In our case, learning about BPD is our education. And from there we can walk. We won't be able to run for a while or fly. But we will be on our feet and moving in a better direction.

I personally have been surprised at the lingering effects of BPD abuse. The effect it has on self-esteem and trust can not be over-stated. And my feeling is that your trust in yourself is at the core of your shame, as it is mine. The inability to feel safe enough to be vulnerable. The sense of alone-ness it creates as we muddle through a problem that very few other friends can fully understand.

I try to see the illness as much as I can and to take less and less of it personally. Increasingly, I remember I am pretty awesome and that this cruel ending is really his loss. I have a true self and am honouring that perhaps for the first time.

They move on fast and will rinse and repeat their stuff infinitum. We can walk now. And soon we will fly

BB12

[clairedair]

In our case, learning about BPD is our education. And from there we can walk. We won't be able to run for a while or fly. But we will be on our feet and moving in a better direction.

We can walk now. And soon we will fly

This is a good image for me to hold on to.  A hike in the woods - some straight paths with the sun filtering through the trees where I can walk easily and lightly; some rocky terrain to negotiate but I just need to slow down and be careful.  I don't need to be Usain Bolt!

I personally have been surprised at the lingering effects of BPD abuse. The effect it has on self-esteem and trust can not be over-stated. And my feeling is that your trust in yourself is at the core of your shame, as it is mine. The inability to feel safe enough to be vulnerable. The sense of alone-ness it creates as we muddle through a problem that very few other friends can fully understand.

Yesterday, I was on a work call.  I was thinking about how well I was dealing with the work situation and then almost instantly heard my ex's voice calling me a horrible name.  I was very aware of this happening - it was scary how quickly I 'fell'.    It's not that he did this often - he could be really encouraging and supportive but the bad stuff was said with such venom that it sticks.

I sought out a new T earlier this year and she talked more in terms of abuse.  I found this really difficult as I didn't (and still don't) want to believe that (a) exH is emotionally and verbally abusive and (b) that I accepted the abuse.  We also talked more about FOO and I found that really uncomfortable as my family would do anything for me and have been there for me all the time - even when I was distancing myself from them to appease ex at times.  I feel I am betraying them when I talk about them but I know that I do find strong similarities between FOO and ex - or rather, my reaction to them.  For example, when I started trying to set boundaries in a way I didn't before, my ex got angry and my family would make a joke.  So they were behaving differently but my reaction was the same - to feel that it wasn't OK to do what was right for me and to then pull away from maintaining the boundary.

If you focus always on why you came to the place you are, and never focus on how you can get to the place where you will feel better, I think you can't really heal.

... .

"What are your plans for you? How are you cleaning up the crap in your house no matter how it got there?" Oh and let your emotions be messy. 'Cause they are.

Thanks for the laugh DesertChild - I was very amused by the crap in the house metaphor, however, there's an important message there about how I'm working on getting to a place where I feel better. 

My immediate plans are as follows:

1. Physical health - just been diagnosed with overactive thyroid and I need to get this sorted as it is exacerbating the anxiety plus I'm sleeping even less and having horrendous nightmares (interesting, all about abuse including one where a male pigeon was berating a cowed female pigeon )

2. Psychological health - I've had to stop seeing T mentioned above as I recently moved jobs but realise I need to find someone else.  In my country, BPD isn't well-known and I can't find anyone who has experience of this.  I have started looking for someone who deals with those recovering from abuse plus I'm trying to read about effects of emotional abuse rather than about BPD.  Talking about shame and "deep, core grief work" that Seeking Balance mentioned is on the cards with a new T.  I've spent 95% of previous therapy talking about ex and the fallout of whatever has happened recently (highs and lows).

3. Once my health starts improving, concentrate more on my new job.  I left a job in a very dysfunctional office and the new job is great though I find myself constantly surprised that people think well of me.  Was really unfortunate that my move to the old job coincided with the worst period in personal life but the new role gives me something to start building on.  I'm not confident yet but will get there.

4. keeping up with friends - making connections as suggested by charred and others (though I may have made a mistake by joining Facebook the other night to connect with friends abroad who I'm not in touch with often enough - it occurred to me later that I may find a "do you know this person" message about my ex's new wife as it's possible she's FB friend of a mutual friend of ex and I - didn't think that one through!  How does FB know so much about me anyway - it's a bit creepy!)

5. a holiday 

I just wish it didn't take me this long to grow a pair and stand up for myself -- knowing I deserve to have my own likes, dislikes, and feelings.  It's been a lifetime of figuring out who I am and what matters to me.  It makes me angry that I was denied my own feelings and ultimately it became my own fault because I hadn't learned the lessons of "self" earlier. 

I also wasn't allowed to have my own opinion and such. 

I do like some of the things she likes, but there many, many things that are attractive to me that are not to her.  I guess she thinks I am supposed to be an extension of her.  Bizarre.  This should be another thread.  Thanks for listening.

Being denied your own feelings/opinions is horrible.  Being 'persuaded' to like/be what others want chips away at your sense of self until you are lost. I wonder how many of us here felt like this growing up.  Have read so much about validating the pwBPD that I don't reflect on my own need for validation.  Most people would see me as extrovert and confident but I've been shocked at the shame I feel about myself.

Eeyore, I get that you are angry about this but I don't think you should get angry at yourself for not learning lessons earlier.  I do the same and ultimately it's futile - can't change past and can't change others.  It sounds as if you are now aware that it's OK to be "artsy fartsy" instead of a Vulcan.  Are you able to act on this knowledge?  I can tell myself it's OK to be me but I'm still practising setting and maintaining boundaries.  Guess lifetime habits take a while to change!

Phoenix-Rising, did you start a new thread about this? 

This is really long again - one of the many symptoms of overactive thyroid is hyperactivity and my fingers are dashing manically over the keyboard this morning!

You folks have been my connection these past few days  - no-one else gets it like you do.  A huge thank-you 

[DesertChild]

Thanks for the laugh DesertChild - I was very amused by the crap in the house metaphor, however, there's an important message there about how I'm working on getting to a place where I feel better. 

I woke up recently and was thinking over things. That exact metaphor made me kick my own butt and look for therapy again. 'cause something self humor and your mind wandering around helps you realize yourself and your own *cough* whining. <--talking about myself here.

My immediate plans are as follows:

1. Physical health - just been diagnosed with overactive thyroid and I need to get this sorted as it is exacerbating the anxiety plus I'm sleeping even less and having horrendous nightmares (interesting, all about abuse including one where a male pigeon was berating a cowed female pigeon )

2. Psychological health - I've had to stop seeing T mentioned above as I recently moved jobs but realise I need to find someone else.  In my country, BPD isn't well-known and I can't find anyone who has experience of this.  I have started looking for someone who deals with those recovering from abuse plus I'm trying to read about effects of emotional abuse rather than about BPD.  Talking about shame and "deep, core grief work" that Seeking Balance mentioned is on the cards with a new T.  I've spent 95% of previous therapy talking about ex and the fallout of whatever has happened recently (highs and lows).

3. Once my health starts improving, concentrate more on my new job.  I left a job in a very dysfunctional office and the new job is great though I find myself constantly surprised that people think well of me.  Was really unfortunate that my move to the old job coincided with the worst period in personal life but the new role gives me something to start building on.  I'm not confident yet but will get there.

4. keeping up with friends - making connections as suggested by charred and others (though I may have made a mistake by joining Facebook the other night to connect with friends abroad who I'm not in touch with often enough - it occurred to me later that I may find a "do you know this person" message about my ex's new wife as it's possible she's FB friend of a mutual friend of ex and I - didn't think that one through!  How does FB know so much about me anyway - it's a bit creepy!)

5. a holiday 

I've heard that having a plan of action helps with anxiety, depression and stress. You know those step plans? They are just a list of goals. Also having concrete goals helps people recover faster from physical injury. (And I'm not saying this is true of everyone either.) So good to have one to concentrate on.

Also give time for yourself to discover yourself too... . things such as fostering hobbies, interests, giving yourself down time to listen to yourself... . so that the chatter of life goes away, not just with vacation but in your daily life. A good partner, I think, also respects that space.

Being denied your own feelings/opinions is horrible.  Being 'persuaded' to like/be what others want chips away at your sense of self until you are lost. I wonder how many of us here felt like this growing up.  Have read so much about validating the pwBPD that I don't reflect on my own need for validation.  Most people would see me as extrovert and confident but I've been shocked at the shame I feel about myself.

Eeyore, I get that you are angry about this but I don't think you should get angry at yourself for not learning lessons earlier.  I do the same and ultimately it's futile - can't change past and can't change others.  It sounds as if you are now aware that it's OK to be "artsy fartsy" instead of a Vulcan.  Are you able to act on this knowledge?  I can tell myself it's OK to be me but I'm still practising setting and maintaining boundaries.  Guess lifetime habits take a while to change!

Phoenix-Rising, did you start a new thread about this? 

This is really long again - one of the many symptoms of overactive thyroid is hyperactivity and my fingers are dashing manically over the keyboard this morning!

You folks have been my connection these past few days  - no-one else gets it like you do.  A huge thank-you 

As it was happening, I knew what my Mom was doing. I was conscious of it at some point. But it still had an effect. Maybe it doesn't hit so hard when you're aware of it, but learning those lessons and being exposed to it over and over again, I learned doesn't mean you can defend from someone chipping away at your self worth.

It's like those ads they have for the more muscled men and the skinnier, bustier women. It's just there every single day and sometimes you stop and don't really think about how that's affecting your own self worth. You know intellectually you can't be that, but it's still there, haunting you. Be size 2!

My mom was like that. I knew what she was doing and I fought against it, but it still has an effect and I don't think one should be ashamed of that. We are told our parents are supposed to be loving, tough, giving (not sacrificing), and set reasonable boundaries. Looking for love is natural, even if the person we love is attacking us and we are aware of it.

[clairedair]

It's like those ads they have for the more muscled men and the skinnier, bustier women. It's just there every single day and sometimes you stop and don't really think about how that's affecting your own self worth. You know intellectually you can't be that, but it's still there, haunting you. Be size 2!

My mom was like that. I knew what she was doing and I fought against it, but it still has an effect and I don't think one should be ashamed of that. We are told our parents are supposed to be loving, tough, giving (not sacrificing), and set reasonable boundaries. Looking for love is natural, even if the person we love is attacking us and we are aware of it.

Good point, DesertChild.  Is it more difficult when it's a relationship with a parent (I'm asking myself this too)?  It's not a chosen relationship so you can't leave - though I guess ultimately you can choose to have no contact.

I believe my parents to have only my best intentions at heart but still, I have strong negative feelings at times.  I often wonder how my kids will feel about me when they are my age!  I hope I am grounded enough to accept their feelings and not invalidate them.

Lots to think about thanks to everyone's posts.  I've pulled out the SWOE workbook tonight.  I bought it one time ex and I were together but I think it's worth looking at some of the exercises again e.g. there's one about what messages we absorbed about ourselves growing up.

[clairedair]

Just opened the workbook and this was the quote I found - seemed appropriate:

"Unless you have a mind of steel, abuse doesn't slip off.  It penetrates and erodes, chips away and it does it slowly and invisibly, and all the while you're thinking you're doing a good job dealing with it. And one day you wake up and realize you've been decimated.  And the healing is slow, painful work."

claire

[Phoenix.Rising]

Healing is slow, painful work, but there is also joy and serenity connected to it.   

Phoenix-Rising, did you start a new thread about this? 

No, but it would probably be a good idea.

[clairedair]

Healing is slow, painful work, but there is also joy and serenity connected to it.   

I'm hoping the joy and serenity comes soon

I spent more time today with exH than I have since we split up 10 months ago and it's the first time we've seen each other properly since his recent remarriage.  We were taking our son to college - not too far so wasn't a long drive and I made my own way home.  He offered me a lift but I couldn't spend time on my own with him.  I was feeling proud of myself for being able to be around him for my son's sake but I think I would have become emotional if we'd had time together just the two of us.

I saw that he was wearing a wedding ring (something he didn't do when married to me) and I am finding that a bit weird tonight.  It didn't look right on him; didn't fit right; wasn't the style I would have thought he'd choose.  Very strange for me.

I don't know if today was something that will help with healing or set it back.  Feeling sad tonight and I'm aware there's a part of me that wanted to spend a bit of time with him once we'd had some time together with our son.  Felt familiar.  He was really nice to me today but I have to remember that this is the same man who left last year in a way that utterly crushed me.

[lost007]

Charred. You have a gift for explaining the intricacies that one faces when dealing with BPD. When surrendering oneself to the chaos that ensues in these relationships. Thanks so much. Your words help me dissect and understand what is barely understandable.

[eeyore]

Feeling sad tonight and I'm aware there's a part of me that wanted to spend a bit of time with him once we'd had some time together with our son.  Felt familiar.  He was really nice to me today but I have to remember that this is the same man who left last year in a way that utterly crushed me.

I'm sorry.  ((hugs))

[Phoenix.Rising]

Clairdair,  That would've been very difficult for me, too, but I hope it helps in your detachment from him in some way.  As I've mentioned, I just found out about a week ago that my ex is now married.  They don't seem to wait very long in a lot of cases.  It is my belief that you are better off without him, and I keep telling myself the same thing.