Facing the reality of it all... HIGHLY contested divorce in process...

[jmrslc]

I have been on a roller coaster for a while now... .  I have come to the conclusion that this is the best place for me to post.  A part of me still wants to be with her (co-dependent, fear of abandonment, separation anxiety), but she has painted me so black that it isn't going to happen. 

We met 5.5 years ago, right after I finally broke free from a 10yr relationship/marriage to a diagnosed BPD/Bi-Polar.  She loved everything I loved, and I just ignored red flags (there were lots) because she was my "pain medicine" from my recent divorce.  There was barely a six week gap, if that.  In the beginning, she tried to meet my emotional needs.  She did nice things for me, wrote notes, etc.  Eventually that subsided.  We even saw a marriage counselor BEFORE we got married, but I still married her as I felt obligated (and scared of being alone).  Besides, how bad could it really be compared to my previous marriage?

We had a son in March of 2011.  Her focus moved more towards him, but we kept things fairly happy.  I always felt like things were "off", and that she was overly critical of others, of me, etc.  I even felt a twinge of pain on a couple of occasions where she was that way with my oldest son.

Fast forward to early/mid 2012.  We try counseling again, she keeps firing them every time they want her to look at herself.  I continue individual counseling (with both a LCSW and an MD Psychiatrist who share an office).  While they have not officially diagnosed her, they consider her to be Axis II, Cluster B (blend of mostly BPD/NPD traits -- many of which manifesting worst now due to circumstances).  We had a 1.5 yr old, and were struggling.

What is the best way to save a marriage?  Have another kid, of course.     (we also considered moving out of state, her going back to school, me quitting my job, and settled on having a second child and buying a bigger house).  I never could get her to meet my emotional needs.  We tried counseling, but she just kept saying it wasn't her.  I am too needy, need too many pats on the back, constant validation, etc.  There is probably some truth to some of it, but it is somewhere in the middle. (not 0/100 or 100/0, but a blend).

I was mentoring someone at work when they were going through some things.  It turned into me becoming her support system, eventually an emotional affair, and then a long-term physical affair that I couldn't bring myself to end.  My wife found out early July, and let's just say we have been on a roller coaster since.  One day we were working on it, holding hands, and the next I was sleeping in the basement, the most horrific things being said around my kids.

She was threatening to move out of state with the kids, so I filed for separation.  She responded to the petition with divorce.

About me:

- mid/late 30s

- two kids (under 3)

- Separation anxiety, fears of abandonment, self-worth issues, self-image issues, co-dependent, validation junkie

About her:

- 30

- Lacks empathy (she has family members going through things and she won't even talk to them).

- VERY black and white (she has cut out blood-relatives for actions, still doesn't talk to them).

- Her modeling of a "connection" in a relationship was parents who fought, hated each other, and were incredibly disruptive in everyone's lives around them.

- Undiagnosed Cluster B demonstrating NPD and BPD tendencies

D-day, she found out July 8th.  With her BPD/NPD traits (specifically lack of empathy, splitting, and sense of entitlement), there was ZERO chance of reconciliation.  For maybe a day or two she tried to bury it and pretend everything was ok.  Since then, she has been beyond cruel.  Saying things to my sons that should never be said, actively trying to destroy my support system and social circles -- down right mean.  7 police calls, she was ALMOST arrested for domestic violence (I talked the police down -- apparently to my detriment on the divorce front).  Now it is daily texts about how I "chose her" and that everything in our life is "tainted" (selling the house, she is going to sell her car, she wants EVERYTHING gone).  It was interesting the day she put it together that my affair partner had met our two boys -- hard to throw them out with the bathwater, but the internal angst was obvious by the look on her face.  She can't look at what I did as a poor choice, me being week, me being selfish, or any combination thereof.  Instead, I am the flaw and she will forever regret having children with me.  She left every piece of wedding memorabilia aside from her dress and the rings (likely due to value), and left everything else for me.  I will box it up in case my boys ever want to know where they came from.

Our state requires co-parenting classes during the divorce process.  We have both taken them.  It hasn't changed her behavior any.  I am scared for my sons.  There is another "high conflict" class that I am going to

I have an individual counselor, I have joined a divorce support group, and am trying to learn how to be alone.  That is hard for me.

I had an epiphany when a fairly well known Psych/MD (the one that shares a practices with my LCSW) pointed out Cluster B (after a couple hundred hours of discussions with both me and the LCSW).  He also expressed great concern for the children, as my STB ex wife is literally acting like her own mother.  She acts like the ultimate victim here, and is putting my boys in the middle.  She tells a horrific story, she is 0% responsible, and the only way she knows how to CONNECT with someone is to fight, pick, jab, poke, stab, twist, etc.  In other words, now that I have wronged her, she is acting out the same way her parents have for the last 30 years.  He is concerned for my boys as they are digressing rapidly (and she has primary custody).

We are going to order a psych eval as part of the divorce proceedings, but it may not matter.  She is extremely bright (4.0, got into anesthesia school, etc.).

My issue is that my "stinking thinking" still feels like if I walk the tightrope JUST RIGHT, she will take me back.  Why would I want that?  Well, the poop stinks but it sure was warm... .  It is crazy that I would even consider it, but a part of me feels like the only way I can protect the boys is to get back to living with them.

Every exchange with the kids is nasty.  Random texts throughout the day are nasty.  This sucks.

I went to speech therapy this morning (we had previously agreed I would be going), she almost didn't let me participate, and said it would be the last time.  She has told me she wishes I would kill myself, that it would be better for the kids, and that she will find them a real man to call Daddy.

I have all of this logged (and some recorded -- we are in a one-party state).  I am encroaching on 500 entries in my email box for logs (since July 8th).

I bought and am reading "Splitting".  I am a little concerned that my attorney only has 5 years experience.  She is a family member of a friend, is giving me a great rate, and I do think she will put her heart and soul into this to try and help me get the best outcome.  I have considered switching to a "big name" attorney with 35 yrs, several thousand cases, etc.

I just want:

- A couple of overnights a week with my 2.5yo (reasonable in this state)

- Joint decision making (health, school, etc.)

- Progressive parenting time as the kids age to where it is eventually 50/50

- For her to stop manipulating the kids (my 2yo now parrots ":)addy doesn't love me, mommy does"

I still love her, and am struggling with the separation as a whole, but I can't see a remote chance in **** that she will ever consider a relationship with me (and when I read the responses, i believe it was a combination of fulfilling what I wasn't getting at home, lashing out, and subconsciously finding a way to end the marriage.  The latter is what my therapist thinks.

The memories of our "good times" (while I can specifically remember some being NOT so good) are constantly haunting me... .CONSTANTLY.  My brain sounds like a depressing country song right now.

[SeekerofTruth]

My heart goes out to you... .

I know of the twisted knot of which you speak... .and a co-dependency that still yearns for a quality connection of joint decision-making and an end to manipulation.  So hard to see the forest from the trees.  BUT--- the liklihood of healthy joint decision-making and an end to manipulation sounds like a fantasy... .which can keep you dangling, dangling, while you get kicked around some more.

I'm learning about my own co-dependency (the way that got triggered inside my marriage, was a way to keep from leaving, and it ran far deeper than i knew existed because i had it covered up with overachievement --- which then got displaced onto doing everything i could to appease her, while losing my sense of self in the process) and redirecting my focus to owning my power, taking responsibility for my stuff, and attempting to improve my own self-care without having expectations upon her for any type of emotional support or understanding.

Can you focus on getting your overnights... .and letting go of the rest, especially ANYTHING as it relates to having expectations about her in terms of taking the high road, being consistent, keeping agreements, and being genuinely civil?

And simplifying as much as you possibly can, and keep returning to that line of focus, keeping your eye on the ball... .

your own self-care, reduction in co-dependency triggers, letting go and moving on... .and preparing to have quality overnights when the time comes

[livednlearned]

Hi jmrsic,

I think you're in the right place. 

A couple of things jumped out at me:

":)addy doesn't love me, mommy does." I recommend getting a copy of Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak to help you with this. Parental alienation seems to go hand-in-hand with BPD divorces. Warshak likens parental alienation to brainwashing and propaganda. You need to figure out ways to deal with it now while the kids are young. Another book that changed my life, and also helps with the parental alienation, is Power of Validation. My ex used to say I loved the dog more than him. Then my son started saying it. My response was always some variation of "I love you more than the dog." By the time I read Power of Validation, my son was 8 and telling me he wanted to open the car door and kill himself. I had to learn how to say, You must be feeling so sad and hurt to want to do that. I would cry so hard for a long time because it would hurt me to see you hurt.

Instead of, Don't you dare open that door! Or, Why would you ever say that? Etc.

Other thing that jumped out at me: experience seems to count with Ls. Mine was experienced. I have been in court enough to see inexperienced Ls in action, and I think the experience really counts. Sometimes I thought I could even tell when inexperienced Ls were wasting their client's money because they don't know how to be efficient. Like testimony that went on way too long, or not understanding procedure, or not thinking strategically and tactically well in advance.

Last thing, potentially related: why does your ex have primary custody?

[jmrslc]

I just bought both ebooks.  Thank you.

Last thing, potentially related: why does your ex have primary custody?

I didn't know what to do, don't know what to do.  She used to work four swing shifts, and we both got fairly equal parenting time (pre-affair, pre- D-Day).  Once she found out, she went to attorney's immediately, wanted me out of the house, locked the kids in the room with her, etc.  I had to keep going to work, so she would "control" the time I got.  I found out she was moving out with two days' notice.  I want more time, but she is claiming I was an absentee father (untrue), that I lack integrity (yes, I had an affair, but it doesn't DEFINE me). 

She was weening our youngest (~8mo now) when she found out (he was ~6mo).  She immediately began full-on breast-feeding again (and even said she would breast feed until elementary school if it reduced my time with my kids).  I have in one of my journal entries where she said her attorney told her to do that because they don't impute income and likely won't award overnights with kids under 30-months -- especially if they are breastfeeding.

She took the kids and is deciding when I get to see them.  This is where I am a little concerned that I may not have enough firepower on MY legal side... .

Last email from her atty to mine (and to me) -- redacted names, etc.:

-dad- may care for the children this week:

Tuesday from 4:00 to 8:00

Friday from 4:00 to 8:00

Sunday 10:00 to 8:00

-dad- appeared at my client’s home today for the speech therapy and apparently wishes to attend s2.5's swim classes and soccer practices.  -ustbxBPDw- will do the transportation for the swim lessons and soccer.  We need to come to an agreement on temporary maintenance and child support or I will be asking for a temporary orders hearing at the ISC on Monday.  I will send you the proposed worksheet in a separate email.

I responded to MY ATTY:

-ustbxBPDw- had always proposed that I attend speech, soccer, and swim. It was even in the agreement I signed from her former attorney. Her attorneys comments below make it sound like a surprise.

I haven't missed a single soccer practice. -ustbxBPDw- is the one who has skipped several... .

By her doing all transportation, that further reduces my 1:1 time with s2.5... .I feel like we are at her mercy, and she has been trying to punish me using the kids - look at the track record.

I didn't see where she said I could or could not come to speech next Monday... .Can we get that clarified?

Should I wait for the worksheet & proposed amounts before writing her a check?

Frustrated  

---------EOM

On the financial front, we make more than the state statutes for temporary maintenance.  She cut her hours from $70k/yr to 16hrs a week "in the best interest of the children that they spend more time with their mother" (since dad is off having affairs, talking to his *****, etc.).  There are things we can BOTH point to where mistakes were made (although she feels she is 100% innocent and this was ALL my doing).  We had a nanny, and the nanny's would frequently stay and help with bed-time.  -ustbxBPDw- considers that to be "more time i spent with my affair partner" and that I was abandoning the family.  I am sorry, my 55-70hr work week pre-dates the kids and the affair by a long time, and she had the luxury of staying home for the first few months of each of our children's lives. 

She stumbled upon my text history, so she has 8 months of gory details (which she then printed since it was on the laptop in google voice).  She then printed all phone records.  She has a lot of ammunition to show when I wasn't around, but she can't truly say how much of that was when I was working vs. not (and their were 8 hotel charges in 9 months).  I made a mistake, but she is painting me out to be a monster... .

I want more time with my kids - especially overnights (at least with my oldest).  My attorney has given me some indication that I will get more time with them, but I am just at a point where I am very VERY concerned about ending up with too little by way of time.  I am not as concerned with the money.  This will probably bankrupt me the way she is racking up legal debt.  She is on her 6th attorney (between consults and full on retainers).  I changed once when my first one was less than competent. 

Scared,

JMR

[livednlearned]

Are you living in an alienation of affection state? If you are, your attorney will have told you. If so, then the affair will impact alimony, but that's it. Not custody.

So if your ex wants to prove that you had an affair, fine. It sounds like she has that evidence. But when it comes to the kids, the court is not likely to punish you for having an affair by limiting time with the kids. In fact, if your ex plays that card too hard, it could come back to bite her.

Most courts want to see kids have a healthy relationship with both parents, and if one parent is trying to prevent that, the court won't like it. 

What advice is your L giving you right now?

[jmrslc]

We are in a no-fault divorce state.  The affair won't impact anything, really. 

[jmrslc]

We are in a no-fault divorce state.  The affair won't impact anything, really. 

Re-phrase, it magnifies her "victim" mentality to the 100th degree.  She is talking about blogging about it, sharing with family, friends, etc.

She wants to tell my boys too, to hurt me.  She has also threatened to tell any and every possible future girlfriend I ever have. 

At my son's swim today, she kept picking, I kept ignoring.  It resulted in some nasty comments.  When I didn't respond to those, it turned into a phone call 15 minutes later "wanting to talk for the good of the boys".  I won't even entertain that next time, because by 3 minutes in she was saying hurtful things before hanging up on me.

[jmrslc]

JUST got an email of a picture from our wedding with no other text... .

<sigh>

Not responding... .

[livednlearned]

We are in a no-fault divorce state.  The affair won't impact anything, really. 

Re-phrase, it magnifies her "victim" mentality to the 100th degree.  She is talking about blogging about it, sharing with family, friends, etc.

She wants to tell my boys too, to hurt me.  She has also threatened to tell any and every possible future girlfriend I ever have. 

At my son's swim today, she kept picking, I kept ignoring.  It resulted in some nasty comments.  When I didn't respond to those, it turned into a phone call 15 minutes later "wanting to talk for the good of the boys".  I won't even entertain that next time, because by 3 minutes in she was saying hurtful things before hanging up on me.

I hope you have a good T who can help you with this. It sounds like you know it won't make a big difference in your custody stuff, but that she'll try to break you down psychologically by threatening to expose you, and publicly humiliate you. Try to get everything you can in writing -- threatening to tell the kids about your affair only hurts her, at least from a legal perspective.

Do you know Mary Oliver? Her poem Wild Geese is one of my favorites.

Wild Geese

You do not have to be good.

You do not have to walk on your knees

for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.

You only have to let the soft animal of your body

      love what it loves.

Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.

Meanwhile the world goes on.

Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain

are moving across the landscapes,

over the prairies and the deep trees,

the mountains and the rivers.

Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,

are heading home again.

Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,

the world offers itself to your imagination,

calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting-

over and over announcing your place

in the family of things.

[momtara]

Your email struck a chord with me because I'm having trouble facing the reality of divorce too.  I never wanted to end up divorced like my parents.  But I also am co-dependent and seek validation.  I ended up marrying my BPD husband and having 2 kids with him.  He can be so sweet at times, and so awful at others.  I filed for divorce before I was really ready to separate, but I did it for similar reasons to why you did it.

I just wanted to give you a ((hug)).  This is a cruel disorder. 

Also, I think you should start out asking for more parenting time.  Let her fight you on it so that you get something in the middle.  If you are so concerned for the kids, you may well be able to get them for a decent amount of time, depending on your state.  Many states really want to see dads have decent time if the dads are involved or want to be. 

Also, you can try to do all the right things, let her back into your life and walk on eggshells, but for how long?  You can't keep a bomb from exploding by jumping on it. You can only make it a bit less explosive or whatever... .I am losing control of this metaphor. 

You seem smart and kind, a good catch.  I don't think your wife is done with you.  I think she will recycle you at some point, or try.  Just follow your heart.  Seems to me you are better off leaving her, but you never know what will happen.  Hang in there.  And keep posting.

[scraps66]

This reads a lot like me ex.

Reading quickly what I see on the parenting time, progressively increasing.  That may be difficult, and just happy with less time - take a step back and ask if that is genuinely in your childrens' best interest.  I had two boys under 5 when I started the process, my goal was nothing less than 50% time for the simple fact of reducing their time with ex and their exposure to chaos and manipulation. 

In the meantime, ex has done everything to get herself more time with these boys, first it started out as finding jobs with a cushy schedule and early dismissal so she can pick up every day, reduced pay, now, she's just not working because I had set up my own daycare. 

My point, it can get worse and the walls can continue to close in on you if you don't shoot high to start with.

Good luck. 

[scraps66]

I've dealt with this too, high functioning NPD/BPD, high IQ, and she has for four years avoided court ordered psych eval.  MAKE SURE - you find a very good, well respected Dr. to administer the psych eval.  MAKE SURE - your attorney stipulates what Dr. is going to administer the tests, it should include at a minimum, the MMPI-II, make sure the Order states this emphatically.

[ForeverDad]

Much of your experience mirrors mine too... .

• I mistakenly thought having a child would make my ex happier, instead it gave her leverage over me and vastly complicated everything, especially custody and parenting.



• My then spouse refused joint counseling, was in utter Denial for her part in our problems and an expert at blaming and blame-shifting.



• Courts care very little, if at all, about adult behaviors such as friendships, affairs, etc, so don't fret over the legal aspects of that.  Yes it hastened the end of the marriage but it was dysfunctional and unhealthy long before then.  In my case there was no affair but she sure interrogated me as though I had.  I saw it as projection on her part, she had belittled me viciously and compared me to other 'better' men.



• We took ordered parenting classes as you did and it didn't change her either.



• There are concerns our children are digressing, I had similar concerns too, I had worries our son was somewhere on the mild autism spectrum.  But of course it wasn't an issue with him, it was his environment.



• I too wanted to reconcile, but once I got the police involved I was permanently painted black.  That started my years-long struggle to remain a father and have parenting.  I had to accept that I had to establish my own peaceful and calm home where I could parent my child.



• "She has told me she wishes I would kill myself, that it would be better for the kids, and that she will find them a real man to call Daddy."  Yes, my experience too.

Sadly, it is what it is.  If you go back you will be returning to the battle arena and as a reasonably normal father you'd be at a disadvantage again.  You know it logically but your heart and emotions need more time to catch up.  It's called 'recovery'.  Give yourself time to recover.

As noted by several others here, all states are mostly or completely No Fault states.  So her overreaction, thinking it is basis to block or obstruct your parenting, is all about her and very little about court.  Sadly, court is unlikely to step in the middle and clarify it for her.  She probably wouldn't listen anyway.

Overnights are standard unless the parent is seen as abusive, neglectful or endangering.  No reason to passively accept any schedule below the court's typical order for that age group.  Sorry but if you're not assertive and proactive, the other parent's emotional intensity will probably overwhelm the professionals and they'll be inclined to pacify by making extreme schedules reducing your parenting.  Breastfeeding?  Express the milk and pass it along at the exchanges.  So look up the published 'standard' schedules for your court.  :)on't accept anything less that the standard minimum.  Yes, the court can order it anyway, but making deals at this point won't be helping your case.

Make the case about the welfare of your children, more about them than about the conflict between the parents.  The court doesn't care how you two get along so focus on how her behaviors are impacting the children and the children's relationship with you.  So when presenting your documentation you can include all her poor behaviors but give primary focus to her poor parenting behaviors (and how her actions impact your parenting too) and less about her adult behaviors.

It is crucial that you are as proactive as you can be as a parent.  Fathers, especially reasonably normal but passive ones, don't fare well in court when opposed by an obstructive spouse.  You need every edge you can get.  Generally that has to include a Custody Evaluation by a competent, experienced and perceptive professional.  Not all CEs are up to the daunting task, just as not all lawyers, therapists, GALs or courts are prepared for the emotional and demanding onslaught.

[jmrslc]

Thanks all for your support.  I am struggling again today due to not wanting the divorce (again).  My attorney hasn't been all that responsive, but I think she is trying to save me money.  My home inspection went ok, apparently.  Appraisal ordered.  My dream home will be sold soon.  I guess I really need to start packing my stuff (that makes it real to me   ).

You seem smart and kind, a good catch.  I don't think your wife is done with you.  I think she will recycle you at some point, or try.  Just follow your heart.  Seems to me you are better off leaving her, but you never know what will happen.  Hang in there.  And keep posting.

Thanks, momtara.  I would be very surprised if she ever recycled me.  This is where the NPD portion may outweigh some of her BPD traits.  She has never allowed her mom to re-enter her life (18+ years).  At times, I still hope she will.  She has some interesting thinking that I believe will not allow her mentally to over overcome an affair:

You made a choice > that choice hurt me > therefore you meant to hurt me > therefore you are a malicious person

She cannot differentiate between people and their choices/behaviors.  She now feels like I am truly a malicious, deceitful person.

I think the majority of my mental anguish comes from my own attachment disorder(s).  I don't like being alone.

I will look into the MMPI-II and ask my attorney about it.  The way the psych evals work in this state, it will be ordered for BOTH of us as a combined child investigative services and the psych eval.  They make recommendations on parenting, and the courts tend to follow the recommendations.

Question:  Her bday is next week.  I already bought a card (to mom from sons), and was going to put a gift card in there.  I thought of signing it with their hand prints.

Do I do this?  Her bday also corresponds with MY evening with them.  Do I try and swap days so she can have the boys on her bday?

Goes back to someone's earlier point; whatever I give won't be looked at as me doing something nice, it will just be perceived as weakness and she will take it and ask for more... .

[momtara]

I think your last sentence is correct.  Wait until she asks, regarding the birthday.  She may  not care about having the boys on her bday unless you mention it.  You don't want to set a precedent.  (That said, my custody agreement actually says that I get the kids on my b-day, so those things may end up working out that way anyway, but wait for her to ask for it.)

I think it's fine to give her whatever you planned to give her for her bday.  I don't want you to have regrets in the future. 

It is ok to still love her.  Just be careful not to give up too much in terms of custody.

[ForeverDad]

This is where you need to familiarize yourself with your county's standard forms, in this case the holiday schedule.  Nearly all holiday schedules will alternate the holidays including the children's birthdays, not all include the parents' birthdays as a qualifying event.  For example mine doesn't recognize the parents' birthdays.

Be very careful that if she wants 'her' bday with the kids and it's not part of the standard order, then get her agreement in writing that when your bday rolls around then you automatically get the kids on 'your' bday too!

PwBPD have long memories when it comes to what they want, but short memories for what we want, even if it's just equal treatment.  Reciprocity seldom happens post-relationship so protect yourself. 

[jmrslc]

Reciprocity seldom happens post-relationship so protect yourself.

This will now be one of the regular readings that I will add to my growing list.  I have several things (some from friends, some from this forum, others from books) that I read regularly to remind me of things.

This one is particularly important for me.  I am the classic "people pleaser" giver type.  Example, she made a comment in front of my s2.5 that "we can't take pictures anymore because daddy took the cameras".  a) not true, she has at least one point and shoot -- I believe two, and the $1200 camcorder that shoots 12MP stills.  It isn't a full DSLR, but I was the photographer (including college classes, sold prints, etc.)  I was (up until this weekend) considering GIVING HER my photography equipment because she has the kids and needs to have nice cameras, right?  (not to mention the $3500 in monthly maintenance and $1900 in child support -- I bet she could buy a camera with some of that). 

What helped me turn THAT corner was the day she called asking for a collection of other things (where I dropped everything to gather up all she asked for).  She subsequently treated me like gum she had just stepped on on hot asphalt.  I was more than an annoyance despite my dropping everything and running over with all she required (and more).  It was a drop it off and get the **** out of here (I had spent time, driven to her place, etc.).

Emotional state today:  It is hard for me at this point as I never meant to have an affair, I never set out to have an affair, it was a LONG process that began with a friendship, my being a crying shoulder for the other woman, and an emotional affair that I didn't recognize was a problem until I had started to feel validated (and began to realize that there IS life outside of this cluster B, BPD/NPD stuff).  It was then that I allowed myself to develop feelings for this other person.  I made that choice, but if H*** hath no fury like a woman scorned, I wonder what they say about BPD/NPD?


ForeverDad,

You have been around a long time.  I have participated in these forums years ago, and I recognize you.  I would be open (and welcome) any/all feedback you have regarding the legal aspects.  a)  She is "controlling" my time with the kids (she says when, her attorney shuttles the messages, etc.).  b) I am not sure my attorney is experienced enough.  c)  We are in a one-party state as it relates to recording.  While my attorney says judges don't look upon it kindly, I can't always get everything she says/does down fully after each "exchange" or dialogue.  I know I am missing parts & pieces.

Aside from the aforementioned books (and the articles here), what else do I do?  I want to be in my children's lives -- from decision making to involvement in activities -- to just plain time... .

She is so sticky sweet with the boys when others are around that it is nauseating.  I truly look like the devil due to my affair.  While that won't matter in court (no-fault state), she sure paints a HORROR story about how I abandoned her and my boys to run off with some ***** where in reality I was working a ton of hours to better their (and my) lifestyles.

[jmrslc]

So I tried to drop off a $2000 check yesterday despite their being no orders in place.  The first status hearing is on Monday.  I have already paid her $2900.  I wanted to be "ahead" when child support and maintenance were ordered so I wasn't being forced to come up with some massive sum of money.  This would have put $4900 in her hands within TWO WEEKS of moving out (technically within 12 days).  She refused it saying "I can't accept that, I am entitled to much more."  I left it on the coffee table and just emailed my attorney.

She tried to call me last night via the home phone (she rarely does that, we don't use the home line).  I chose not to answer as the late night calls/emails have ALWAYS been a way to beat up on me (you did this, you ruined our family, destroyed our marriage, you chose her - remember that... .).

I texted this morning to check on the boys, they are "fine".  I am sick of her "setting the terms" for when I see the kids.  It isn't right.  My attorney is asking if I will concede a bit on the money part if she will concede on time (specifically overnights) with the boys in good faith to get us into a temporary agreement and move straight to permanent orders.

I am ok with it, but want to ensure whatever is "agreed to" is legal and binding... .  I need to know if she does something wonky with the kids, etc. that a police officer will actually take the order/agreement into consideration (meaning it needs to be entered with the court, etc.).

[SeekerofTruth]

Congratulations on keeping a good boundary last night on not taking the bait in the form of latenight calls/emails designed and targeted to beat you up.

Keep your eye on the ball... .

Keep asking good questions / getting good feedback from the board.

: )

[jmrslc]

Just got some interesting (scary) feedback from my therapist.  She is recommending we DO NOT get the psych eval.  She says that since I am the one who goes to therapy and is on anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds (wife won't go, etc.), and because my wife is extremely high-functioning, combined with her having seen several that weren't even close to accurate to the individual(s) she has been seeing for years; she feels there is a higher likelihood of it hurting me than any potential positives it might yield.  She doesn't feel that BPD, NPD, or Cluster B would significantly impact parenting time, but the fact that I have been on meds and in therapy for years (and that my wife didn't even know because she "didn't believe in it" -- despite her working in medicine) could make me appear as dishonest to the judge, notwithstanding whatever the evaluations could yield for either or both of us.

[ForeverDad]

So I tried to drop off a $2000 check yesterday despite their being no orders in place.  The first status hearing is on Monday.  I have already paid her $2900.  I wanted to be "ahead" when child support and maintenance were ordered so I wasn't being forced to come up with some massive sum of money.  This would have put $4900 in her hands within TWO WEEKS of moving out (technically within 12 days).  She refused it saying "I can't accept that, I am entitled to much more."  I left it on the coffee table and just emailed my attorney.

Did the checks include on the memo line something like "toward child support"?  Even if you did remember to do that, it's very possible the court could view ANY money given before an order as a GIFT and not child support or spousal support.  That has happened to many of us here, our considerateness wasn't just ignored, it made us poorer.  Some have commented on a saying here:  The misbehaving one seldom get consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets credit.  Be aware.

So the big question is, do you want to end up with an order that (1) might make you pay twice or (2) an order nudged higher than it otherwise would be because you are already sending too high an amount?

So, rather than paying her more than you should, why not set aside that money so that IF/WHEN the court orders retroactive support (child or spousal) and IF your earlier payments are deemed to be GIFTS then at that time you will have the money to pay as ordered.  Yes, you should give her some money in these early days of the separation but beware you will most likely never get any credit for giving her extra now, not from her, not from the court.  Remember, if you gift her too much and the court later orders you to pay a lower amount, it will never order her to refund you the excess.

Also, the more you offer, the more she will want.  You may see it as generosity, she sees it as weakness to enable her to feel she needs to demand even more.

My attorney is asking if I will concede a bit on the money part if she will concede on time (specifically overnights) with the boys in good faith to get us into a temporary agreement and move straight to permanent orders.

Unless you are independently wealthy, beware of seeming like Mr Deep Pockets.  Clearly you can afford much more than most members here but beware the hope that you can buy a good order.  For most of us, we were not able to get a good order by negotiation so early in the process.  The disordered parent simply feels too entitled and too in control.  In many cases here it turns one of these ways or both:  (1) The judge makes an Order that is far better than any crumbs the other parent would give us.  (2) You are close to an impending event such as a hearing or trial, the ex looks bad in reports, the ex finally stops feeling in control and the ex is ready to deal.

Be cautious about accepting an unfavorable temporary settlement or order.  Too often we've seen temporary orders morph unchanged into permanent or final orders.  If your lawyer says, ":)on't worry, we'll fix it later" it may take a long time and a lot of money to get it 'fixed'.

I am sick of her "setting the terms" for when I see the kids.  It isn't right.

So true, but you can't reason with her.  Neither can your money.  how does the saying go?  "Possession is 9/10 of the law."  At this point, without an order stating otherwise, you both probably have equal but unspecified rights as parents.  Even the police won't want to decide who gets the kids and when without a written order from the court.  Likely you will have to have the judge set an order.  Unfortunately for you, (1) you are of the wrong gender for default court preference and (2) you also are the one working so unless your child has a nanny, sitter or goes to daycare she will be credited by default as the "majority time parent".  Until you can get her behaviors documented before the court you're likely to have to fight hard for a decent temporary order and only walk out with alternate weekends and a couple evenings or overnights in between.

In most cases you don't have to feel pressured to make a quick deal.  At this early stage a deal now is at high risk to be very unfair to you, giving her too much control over parenting and too much money.  I'm getting the feeling that your lawyer's hope to get a reasonable outcome this soon may indicate his inexperience with high conflict, entitled, controlling, blaming, disordered people.  Around here we quickly learn that appeasing doesn't work, it usually just enables and encourages more demands.  I mean, it's good that he tries to determine if an agreement can be reached, but does he know that if it doesn't succeed soon, then he has to withdraw the offer and get to the judge ASAP.  It is a truism here, you'll most likely get a better order from the judge than in an early deal with the unreasonable parent.  (We encourage our members to keep the case moving along while negotiating, putting the hearings on hold removes the pressure for the obstructive parent to negotiate.

If you haven't gotten a copy of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger, then get it NOW!  It's the #1 handbook we recommend here when facing high conflict, a separation, or divorce.

[livednlearned]

Just got some interesting (scary) feedback from my therapist.  She is recommending we DO NOT get the psych eval.  She says that since I am the one who goes to therapy and is on anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds (wife won't go, etc.), and because my wife is extremely high-functioning, combined with her having seen several that weren't even close to accurate to the individual(s) she has been seeing for years; she feels there is a higher likelihood of it hurting me than any potential positives it might yield.  She doesn't feel that BPD, NPD, or Cluster B would significantly impact parenting time, but the fact that I have been on meds and in therapy for years (and that my wife didn't even know because she "didn't believe in it" -- despite her working in medicine) could make me appear as dishonest to the judge, notwithstanding whatever the evaluations could yield for either or both of us.

It's good that your T is aware of your situation and her advice might be good, but you need to ask your L about this. If you don't trust your L, get a second opinion -- pay the $50 or $100 is costs for the consultation, and ask about this specifically.

My T is excellent, and so is my L. But I kept telling my L what my T said, and L finally say, "With all due respect, I am your L, and your T is not licensed to practice law. This is my specialty and I do not agree with T about xyz."

I'm not saying your T is right or wrong, just that you need to weigh her input with what your L is saying. And so that you don't feel too nervous about yes/no to the psych eval: There are other strategies that have worked for some of us. If your ex is high-functioning, a deposition can really help. Depositions lay down testimony that become part of the court record. Do you live in a state that uses parent coordinators? That's another tool in your toolkit. Ask your L how your judge views parental alienation -- maybe your court is highly intolerant of PA. It would be good to find that out from your L.

[ForeverDad]

When I first separated, the judge ordred us both to have psych evals.  Big deal, mine was a grad student and a two hour test/interview.  Everyone has issues, no one is perfect - no matter how perfect the pwBPD think they are.  So my issue?  Anxiety.  Duh, the marriage was imploding, no surprise there.  My ex?  To my knowledge she never complied, court never followed up and asked either.  So in my case psych evals by themselves were effectively meaningless.

However, once we were divorcing there were various steps to take during those two years:  temporary order, mediation attempt, court's parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference and finally trial.  The custody evaluator was a professional, a child psychologist.  He did an excellent job.  Although he warned me from the start not to expect much since she had the history of majority time parenting, somewhere along the way he saw the vast difference of our behaviors.  His initial report was short compared to others reported here, less than a dozen pages, but he captured the core issues.  Two items I recall in the summary, one was that mother couldn't share 'her' child but father could and the other was that mother should lose temp custody immediately.  (The temp order never changed, court ignored that recommendation and moved on to the next step.)

So for many of us a Custody Evaluation, which generally include psych evals such as the MMPI2, was needed to bring to the court's attention the issues and behaviors that ought to affect custody.  The key is that you try your best to get a good, experienced, unbiased, perceptive professional as custody evaluator, same as you try to do when getting a lawyer, a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) or parenting coordinator (PC).  Don't go solely by price, go by reputation and recommendation.

So I agree with LnL, the fact that you're in therapy does not mean you are the problem, are causing the problems or have the most problems.  What it should mean to an expert is that you recognize a need and you are addressing it.  Also, your issues are mostly situational, that is, you probably wouldn't be in such intensive therapy if not for your spouse's behaviors, right?  See the point?  It's all about perspective.  Try your best to look from the outside in, not from the inside out.  Try to look at your situation from the eyes of others, from as many angle as possible.  Be objective in your perspective, not subjective.

Are you into physics and theory?  How about the theory of relativity?  Not the deep aspects, just from the surface.  Here's my example.  Jump as high as you can.  What was it, a foot?  Do you feel weak and puny?  Of course.  But relativity says all thing are relative.  So change the perspective and what you actually did was push the entire universe a foot away from you for a split second.  (Yes, gravity is that abysmally weak.)  Wow, looking at it that way and what we can do with a silly weak jump is astounding.  Make sense?  Perspective can help you see yourself as a loser or a winner, all up to you.

[marbleloser]

"So I tried to drop off a $2000 check yesterday despite their being no orders in place.  The first status hearing is on Monday.  I have already paid her $2900.  I wanted to be "ahead" when child support and maintenance were ordered so I wasn't being forced to come up with some massive sum of money.  This would have put $4900 in her hands within TWO WEEKS of moving out (technically within 12 days). "

DO NOT DO THIS! You're money will be wasted without a court order to pay. Keep it and pay it if any back payments are required,but DO NOT pay without an order.

Also,if she moved out and you're still in the home,you can request the kids be returned to the marital home and you have exclusive use.

[momtara]

Does your therapist have a lot of legal experience with custody, local psych evals, etc?  Her advice may or may not be valid.  I've read that it's ok to get therapy because it looks like you're helping yourself.  That said, I don't know what's in your records that she could exploit.  You're right that your wife could come up shining and it could backfire.  I didn't get a psych eval because my husband is fairly high functioning and fooled two marriage therapists, one who supposedly had a lot of background in DV.  However, now I worry that he's nuts and part of me wants him diagnosed.  A psych eval wouldn't change our custody, though, I think.

So what I'm saying is, your T may be right, but her opinion is just an opinion unless she's very familiar with local courts.  From reading this board, psych evals don't generally make much of a diff in many cases.

[livednlearned]

If your ex engages in emotional reasoning, which many pwBPD do, then a deposition might be a better tool. She will say outlandish and outrageous things, and contradict herself, and that will become testimony that she must stand by in court. Not easy to do when you invent stuff. It will undermine her credibility.

In your case, a deposition would expose how she's obsessively angry toward you, and that rage is impeding her judgment about what's best for the kids, which should be to foster a healthy relationship with you. If you have the deposition done 6 months after date of separation, and she is still raging at you, the court will start to see that she has anger issues. Courts want to see anger abating, not increasing or remaining red hot after 6 months.

With high-functioning BPD, I think the key is to aim high and pace yourself. Ask for more than what you plan to settle for, and use the slow process of the court system to your advantage, and then think strategically how to expose behaviors to the court. Keep in mind that many courts do not care about things that happened 6 months before. And once you have a hearing, anything settled at that hearing is on the record. Meaning, if you try to revisit issues that happened before your first hearing, the court won't hear it. Don't think that you can agree to something below standard with your ex now, and then re-negotiate a better outcome at a different hearing. It doesn't quite work that way.

Also, ask your L about using a parenting coordinator. Not a co-parenting therapist -- that's different. A parenting coordinator has extension of judicial duties. You would sign a parenting coordinator order that would likely be in effect for one or two years.

[jmrslc]

Did the checks include on the memo line something like "toward child support"?  Even if you did remember to do that, it's very possible the court could view ANY money given before an order as a GIFT and not child support or spousal support.  That has happened to many of us here, our considerateness wasn't just ignored, it made us poorer.  Some have commented on a saying here:  The misbehaving one seldom get consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets credit.  Be aware.

So the big question is, do you want to end up with an order that (1) might make you pay twice or (2) an order nudged higher than it otherwise would be because you are already sending too high an amount?

The memo line specifically said "Child Support/Maintenance".  My L was the one who told me to give the money and who told me to include that.  My pockets aren't THAT deep, but I have significant cash flow.  We would have had more cash on hand except that we both spent like it grows on trees.  For our (former) income, we should have had substantial savings.  (She reduced her hours and effectively nullified most of her income).

Be cautious about accepting an unfavorable temporary settlement or order.  Too often we've seen temporary orders morph unchanged into permanent or final orders.  If your lawyer says, ":)on't worry, we'll fix it later" it may take a long time and a lot of money to get it 'fixed'.

That has me worried.  My L has been pushing me to get a temporary agreement in place that would be either no overnights or one overnight (per week) for 2.5s with the "callout" in the agreement saying I disagree with the overall parenting time and that it should be revisited at permanent orders.  This makes me wonder if she lacks experience, or if this is truly a precedent that she sees consistently in this district.

If you haven't gotten a copy of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger, then get it NOW!  It's the #1 handbook we recommend here when facing high conflict, a separation, or divorce.

Bought, and reading.

I am beginning to really wonder if my L is the right one for me.  She only has ~5yrs experience, and she has already told me this is the "craziest" case she has ever seen.  She is a family member of a friend who is "helping me out".  Two friends who are also attorneys said I should stay with her because she is a) fair on billing and has given me a TON of time and feedback without nickel and diming me  b) She knows me, and has a bit more of a vested interest in doing a good job and getting me the best outcome  c) It would take a new L 40-80 hours to get through the 8 police reports and ~2-300 pages of documentation that I have compiled thus far.  I spoke with a VERY experienced L last week who said he wouldn't even touch this for about 2.5x (retainer and hourly) above what I am paying now.  My concern with him was that he sounded like he had a game plan before he even knew the facts.  He has 3200 divorces under his belt in 35 years, but that also screams rigidity and routine to me.

Just got some interesting (scary) feedback from my therapist.  She is recommending we DO NOT get the psych eval.  She says that since I am the one who goes to therapy and is on anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds (wife won't go, etc.), and because my wife is extremely high-functioning, combined with her having seen several that weren't even close to accurate to the individual(s) she has been seeing for years; she feels there is a higher likelihood of it hurting me than any potential positives it might yield.  She doesn't feel that BPD, NPD, or Cluster B would significantly impact parenting time, but the fact that I have been on meds and in therapy for years (and that my wife didn't even know because she "didn't believe in it" -- despite her working in medicine) could make me appear as dishonest to the judge, notwithstanding whatever the evaluations could yield for either or both of us.

It's good that your T is aware of your situation and her advice might be good, but you need to ask your L about this. If you don't trust your L, get a second opinion -- pay the $50 or $100 is costs for the consultation, and ask about this specifically.

My T is excellent, and so is my L. But I kept telling my L what my T said, and L finally say, "With all due respect, I am your L, and your T is not licensed to practice law. This is my specialty and I do not agree with T about xyz."

I'm not saying your T is right or wrong, just that you need to weigh her input with what your L is saying. And so that you don't feel too nervous about yes/no to the psych eval: There are other strategies that have worked for some of us. If your ex is high-functioning, a deposition can really help. Depositions lay down testimony that become part of the court record. Do you live in a state that uses parent coordinators? That's another tool in your toolkit. Ask your L how your judge views parental alienation -- maybe your court is highly intolerant of PA. It would be good to find that out from your L.

When I get my L on the phone, I will talk with her and try to get a feel for her reasoning/logic.  Until then, I only have the T side of things.

When I first separated, the judge ordred us both to have psych evals.  Big deal, mine was a grad student and a two hour test/interview.  Everyone has issues, no one is perfect - no matter how perfect the pwBPD think they are.  So my issue?  Anxiety.  Duh, the marriage was imploding, no surprise there.  My ex?  To my knowledge she never complied, court never followed up and asked either.  So in my case psych evals by themselves were effectively meaningless.

However, once we were divorcing there were various steps to take during those two years:  temporary order, mediation attempt, court's parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference and finally trial.  The custody evaluator was a professional, a child psychologist.  He did an excellent job.  Although he warned me from the start not to expect much since she had the history of majority time parenting, somewhere along the way he saw the vast difference of our behaviors.  His initial report was short compared to others reported here, less than a dozen pages, but he captured the core issues.  Two items I recall in the summary, one was that mother couldn't share 'her' child but father could and the other was that mother should lose temp custody immediately.  (The temp order never changed, court ignored that recommendation and moved on to the next step.)

So for many of us a Custody Evaluation, which generally include psych evals such as the MMPI2, was needed to bring to the court's attention the issues and behaviors that ought to affect custody.  The key is that you try your best to get a good, experienced, unbiased, perceptive professional as custody evaluator, same as you try to do when getting a lawyer, a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) or parenting coordinator (PC).  Don't go solely by price, go by reputation and recommendation.

So I agree with LnL, the fact that you're in therapy does not mean you are the problem, are causing the problems or have the most problems.  What it should mean to an expert is that you recognize a need and you are addressing it.  Also, your issues are mostly situational, that is, you probably wouldn't be in such intensive therapy if not for your spouse's behaviors, right?  See the point?  It's all about perspective.  Try your best to look from the outside in, not from the inside out.  Try to look at your situation from the eyes of others, from as many angle as possible.  Be objective in your perspective, not subjective.

Are you into physics and theory?  How about the theory of relativity?  Not the deep aspects, just from the surface.  Here's my example.  Jump as high as you can.  What was it, a foot?  Do you feel weak and puny?  Of course.  But relativity says all thing are relative.  So change the perspective and what you actually did was push the entire universe a foot away from you for a split second.  (Yes, gravity is that abysmally weak.)  Wow, looking at it that way and what we can do with a silly weak jump is astounding.  Make sense?  Perspective can help you see yourself as a loser or a winner, all up to you.

Understood.  (I do like physics and theory, btw).  I just don't have the experience or knowledge to try and look at from a judge, child advocate/CFI/PSE perspective.  I hear what I hear from my T and it worries me.  The comment above about the Psych evals not having impact in most cases also concerns me.  My ex is one of the smartest people I know.  Summa cum laude, anesthesia school, 4.0, scholarships, etc.  The only thing in my favor is she is a TERRIBLE people person.  She is critical, lacks empathy, can't talk in front of a crowd (in contrast, I am an executive for one of the top 50 fastest growing mortgage-industry companies in the nation, I report into the c-suite, interface with auditors, regulatory agencies, etc.).  I do the "grip and grin" polish thing well, but that is part of my "put on a shiny exterior" problem due to my internal self-worth (need for validation) type problems.

"So I tried to drop off a $2000 check yesterday despite their being no orders in place.  The first status hearing is on Monday.  I have already paid her $2900.  I wanted to be "ahead" when child support and maintenance were ordered so I wasn't being forced to come up with some massive sum of money.  This would have put $4900 in her hands within TWO WEEKS of moving out (technically within 12 days). "

DO NOT DO THIS! You're money will be wasted without a court order to pay. Keep it and pay it if any back payments are required,but DO NOT pay without an order.

Also,if she moved out and you're still in the home,you can request the kids be returned to the marital home and you have exclusive use.

Unless agreed upon in writing (as an order) or ordered by the court, I will push back on my L about doing this going forward.

Due to all of this, I struggled with the concept of keeping the marital home.  I put it on the market and sold it in ~4.5 days.  Closing just got pushed up, so I will be moving into my other property in ~2 weeks.  I likely won't be able to do much to try and get the kids back into the marital home.  SHE is only working one day that overlaps with me, and the same nanny comes to her house.  My Sunday visit time is actually her work schedule (meaning I am her child care on Sundays).  She is only working 2x 8 hour shifts (from full time).

Does your therapist have a lot of legal experience with custody, local psych evals, etc?  Her advice may or may not be valid.  I've read that it's ok to get therapy because it looks like you're helping yourself.  That said, I don't know what's in your records that she could exploit.  You're right that your wife could come up shining and it could backfire.  I didn't get a psych eval because my husband is fairly high functioning and fooled two marriage therapists, one who supposedly had a lot of background in DV.  However, now I worry that he's nuts and part of me wants him diagnosed.  A psych eval wouldn't change our custody, though, I think.

So what I'm saying is, your T may be right, but her opinion is just an opinion unless she's very familiar with local courts.  From reading this board, psych evals don't generally make much of a diff in many cases.

I have actually been very impressed with my T as it relates to divorce, custody, and court battles.  She is the one who got me to retain and file for separation when I did.  She has been doing this for well over 30 years.  That having been said, she isn't a L.  My T HAS shared with me what is in her notes that would concern her should they be requested via subpoena.  It calls out some of the dishonesty from me to my ex, which could paint me in a worse light (regardless of whether or not that dishonesty was for arguable legitimate purposes or not).

-----------

My ex just texted me that she had a flat tire.  She knows me well, I respond offering help, reminding her she has roadside assistance.  She is now ignoring me (yup, I just got whipped around again).  She knows this will stress me out (because I am a people pleaser, want to help type guy), and she is pushing that button among many others HARD.

[jmrslc]

BTW, I neglected to say THANK YOU for all of the thoughtful feedback and responses.  I appreciate it more than you know... .

[livednlearned]

Jmrsic,

Just going to say this: it sounds like you can afford a better lawyer. My gut says you are going to need one with more than 5 years experience.

Also, if you're a people pleaser like many of us are, don't stick with your current L just because you're afraid of hurting her feelings or your friends. Stick with her only if you think she is the right person for the job.

[momtara]

Just quickly - I wouldn't agree to any temporary order where you give up too much parenting time.

I stuck with my original lawyer too long too.  I have a new high powered lawyer who also has made mistakes, so I have found that many of them suck.  You can get second opinions from others sometimes for a low cost.  You can even go on avvo.com for free!