Taking his "ex" out tomorrow night/said I'm overreacting

[Siamese Rescue]

So his birthday was yesterday. As usual with my relationship with this guy, my attempts to figure it out are exhausting and yield nothing. He called someone close to me on Tuesday saying he hadn't heard from me all weekend (he hung up on me Friday night and I guess I was supposed to call him over the weekend, but I didn't) so he made plans for his clients to take him out on his birthday yesterday.  His blonde female clients who he's just friends with, one of whom buys him things. The one I was concerned about.

I called him Tuesday after hearing that he acted as though he was a victim because I didn't call him. (It was his place to call me back after he hung up on me)

We discussed his birthday and I said, "change your plans with them and go out with me if you respect us as a couple. I'm going out of town for work next week and you can go out with your friends then".  He said he guessed he could do that.  I then texted him and said I was thinking about our phone call and it felt like I was begging him about his birthday. He should spend it with whoever he wanted. I'd like to be the one, but only if he wants that. 

So Wednesday he tells me he's inviting me to go out with him and his female friends for his birthday because he doesn't want to cancel them, it would be rude and the one is sending him a lot of business.  Now, I've given him grief about hiding his relationship from these women, so I looked at as a positive- he was being mature and wanted to introduce me to these friends that I was suspicious of.  I thought it was a bit of a breakthrough. I was nervous because he can sometimes smear you to others and he plays so many games that I didn't know if he told these women I was demanding to go or not.

I did confirm with him that he and I would go out alone on Saturday night to celebrate. He said, "Well, I'm sure we'll do something". 

Yesterday while at the nail salon I call him because he disappeared for a few hours and he called me about ten min before I passed his ex-girlfriend on the road, on our side of town - His ex, the original other point on the triangle with me, the older woman, who this war has been with since day one. The blood bath has always been the strongest with her.

I ask again about Saturday night as I'm getting my nails done, to get ready to go swallow my pride and have dinner with him and two other women on his actual birthday.

He says, "Here's the deal, my ex asked me to go out on Saturday night a long time ago when you and I were broken up. I'm going out with her because she asked me." I just lost it at that point. Told him he swore up and down he was finished with her and yet again he's letting her destroy our relationship and he's choosing to do this to me. He asked what the big deal was? He's going to go out and get something to eat with her and afterward he'll come over to my house.  Really? You'll go out for dinner with her but you think you're going to come sex me afterward?WRONG

I told him it was bad enough i was being stuffed into a slot on his birthday among others, but this was the final straw.  He said we could go to a therapist and "hash it out" when I get back from my business trip. I said, FORGET IT.  AFTER you appease her then you'll meet me at a therapist's office? WRONG.

He's trying to convince me this is all normal and I'm acting like a nut.

I truly have never been so humiliated in my life. Hurting and angry and so overwhelmed with emotions i could puke.

[eeyore]

I'm sorry.  I would also feel hurt.  What do you want to do? 

[peas]

What does this man give you that you don't already have or can't get elsewhere?

[patientandclear]

I can't see much good coming from anything other than telling him to take a flying leap, honestly.  It's like he's daring you.  If you pass this "test" by putting up with this, there will be another, even harder test.  I think this is a line you will regret not drawing, if you don't.

You are worth vastly more than that, SR.

[eeyore]

I can't see much good coming from anything other than telling him to take a flying leap, honestly.  It's like he's daring you.  If you pass this "test" by putting up with this, there will be another, even harder test.  I think this is a line you will regret not drawing, if you don't.

You are worth vastly more than that, SR.

I have lived 6 years of the constant testing only to be walked on like a door mat.  I've heard all the I'm sorry you feel the way you do (with the innuendo I shouldn't feel the way I feel).  I've experienced the pull back in with a person who changes like a butterfly in to the most wonderful caring person only to later experience some of the most crushing cruelty I have ever in my life experienced. 

Even last night he called me the perpetual victim because I have made all the choices causing my grief.  I told him I desire to be in a relationship that is healthy.  In a healthy relationship I need to be the woman in the relationship who is a priority.  That means no other woman.  I don't care if it's your ex or any other woman.  It just happens to be that your ex has been the woman that has always been the third party for six years. 

I told him, I am not a victim because I choose to stand up for myself and you are trying to convince and manipulate me into thinking that I don't need to be the woman of priority in my relationship.  I'm not buying into your manipulation any more. 

Then came the emotional blackmail. 

Him:  So then we are in agreement we are broken up and it's ok for me to date other people now.

ME:  As throughout our relationship you decide what you want to do regardless of my opinions.  Case in point the ex.  Case in point another time when we were having a rough patch and he was on match and I was living in the house with him.  You are backing me into a corner so that you can tell your friends I said it was ok for you to be out dating.  Again you a manipulating (putting words in my mouth). Yes I choose not be be in a relationship where I am not the priority.  You have chosen to make another woman the priority.  I find it a hurtful conversation when your initial call to me was to tell me you care about me and now you want to beat me over the head with your going to go out and start dating. 

Thoughts:  Frankly to turn the conversation into His dating life is cruel to me.  While he's free now to date, I don't need to discuss it.  He's trying to emotionally blackmail me to accept another woman into our relationship or he'll go date.  After 6 years of this, I just can't live like this any more.  I do feel I deserve to be made a priority. 

I saw MaybeSo post to someone else you can't love them enough to heal them.  I thought if I tried harder at it and we loved each other it would work out.  But at this point it's hopeless.  The fact is I accepted and compromised on the situation many times over the last 6 years.  Now the "test" has become so complicated. Just remember a deal breaker is a deal breaker.  Know your deal beakers. 

[Siamese Rescue]

Like the above post describes, he morphs into a loving and caring person who takes me out to dinner and does things around my house, etc. He can be so attentive. Then he thinks he can juggle women and this has especially rang true since we got back together a month ago.

What's frustrating is that he tells me I'm being controlling and he said I expect him to live in a box, with no other people - that I go crazy when he is around other women. He reiterates that his ex is just a friend now and nothing is going on. That he has a right to have friends in his life and I can't handle it. He said my exhusband comes to my house to feed the cats - my exhusband has never tried to break us up and my exhusband and I weren't having sexual relationship behind his back like he and his ex were/are having behind mine, further, my ex was involved in a serious relationship with another woman ... .his ex was not involved w anyone but him! Lastly my exhusband is his lawyer and they have an amicable relationship and he knows my exhusband was broken hearted over another woman! None of this is true of his ex! She has harassed us and tortured me for 5 years. He has screwed her behind my back for years.

This is aggravating that he is making it seem like I'm being possessive!

[Aussie0zborn]

No this is not normal, you are not acting like a nut and you are not being possessive, you just have expectations of decency.  Heed the advice above.  If you let him get away with this, there will be more hurt and bigger humiliation. This is the nature of BPD. Let him fill the void with his ex.

[Scout99]

Like the above post describes, he morphs into a loving and caring person who takes me out to dinner and does things around my house, etc. He can be so attentive. Then he thinks he can juggle women and this has especially rang true since we got back together a month ago.

What's frustrating is that he tells me I'm being controlling and he said I expect him to live in a box, with no other people - that I go crazy when he is around other women. He reiterates that his ex is just a friend now and nothing is going on. That he has a right to have friends in his life and I can't handle it. He said my exhusband comes to my house to feed the cats - my exhusband has never tried to break us up and my exhusband and I weren't having sexual relationship behind his back like he and his ex were/are having behind mine, further, my ex was involved in a serious relationship with another woman ... .his ex was not involved w anyone but him! Lastly my exhusband is his lawyer and they have an amicable relationship and he knows my exhusband was broken hearted over another woman! None of this is true of his ex! She has harassed us and tortured me for 5 years. He has screwed her behind my back for years.

This is aggravating that he is making it seem like I'm being possessive!

Hi Siamese Rescue!

I am so sorry to hear how much suffering this r/s is causing you... .You have already received a lot of good comments and support from other here, but reading through this thread a question is beginning to form in me... .

Now you know this guy can be very attentive and nice to at times. But you also know that this semi or full on cheating is also a part of who he is, and judging from what you write he doesn't seem to want to change or validate your concerns with his behaviors at all... .Instead it seems he wants you to change and adjust to his needs of seeing other women casually or otherwise and for you to comply with that... .

Knowing this I think it is safe to say that a partner to this man will have to be able to feel ok with both of these parts of him, since he is unwilling to change... .(And is from what I understand not undergoing any treatment either)... .Knowing this, I think it is safe to assume that you find his behaviors unacceptable to you, and you get hurt by it. Which you have in common with most people on this planet, I might add... .

So here comes my perhaps uncomfortable question... .

Do you want to be in this relationship?

I ask not to put you on the spot... .but more to help you shift perspective a bit not just to what he is doing, but to how it is affecting you... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[123Phoebe]

None of this is true of his ex! She has harassed us and tortured me for 5 years. He has screwed her behind my back for years.

This is aggravating that he is making it seem like I'm being possessive!

Siamese Rescue, how long have you known that he's been screwing his ex?

[connect]

Hi SR and      to you 

I know the scenario you speak of... .unfortunately. My bf, although not physical with his ex had a r/s with her that was too close for comfort. He is now not seeing her like he used to (kiddy playdates, days out and "friendship" I was also told I am controlling and the one at fault. Other women also hovered around making me feel uncomfortable as I was rarely introduced to them in an adult fashion.

This comment from eeyore really stands out to me here:

I told him, I am not a victim because I choose to stand up for myself and you are trying to convince and manipulate me into thinking that I don't need to be the woman of priority in my relationship.

It clarifies what I feel but have not been able to put into words myself. I will take a lot personally from this comment. The MY relationship part is the crux for me here... .mmm... .

I dont know what to say really. My bf did stop with the ex stuff but it waits in the sidelines I know to be resurrected. He dysregulated last week when we bumped into her and I introduced myself in a grown up fashion... it sucks.

I know how you feel - I really REALLY do. If you click on my posts you can read my experience and answers I received on a similar scenario. It might help you today - i do recommend that you do it. At the least you will feel less alone with it.

Mine seemed to come to the realisation on his own after many arguements and me ignoring him when he went too far. I hope your guy gets there. This stuff seems to be hard for them to shift as I am sure its a coping mechanism for them. Is your guy in therapy? Mine has just started and I am hoping it will help.

[Siamese Rescue]

Reply to Scout:

I need to seriously evaluate whether I could survive with any degree of dignity or peace. He is so up and down that it's mind blowing. He, in the last month has shown trace amounts of maturity and some degree of responsibility that I hadn't seen before, yet he is far deeper into his craziness of thinking he's going to have a relationship with this ex and use my ex as the excuse. I'm not justifying or rationalizing here, those two people and the circumstances surrounding them are radically different.

Reply to Phoebe:

He screwed her behind my back from 2006-2008, then a brief stop in 2009, then it started again, then allegedly it stopped in 2010, yet she barged into a restaurant in 2012 and said it was happening all along. He denied that. He admitted the reasons why in the past, but said he would not own something he didn't do and she was lying. How noble of him.

His lies and cheating are so fluid that it's nearly impossible to draw lines anywhere. Frankly, I don't know whether they are screwing or not. The only thing I do know is that when I had him followed in April, by a detective, when he took her out at her request, there was zero affection   - zero - not even a hug at the end of the night. So, I was somewhat hopeful.  Yet, this man I believe is addicted to sex and watches porn daily. His ex is desperate for him and it makes no difference to him that she's hideous by accounts of all who know her.  It's a money/security relationship with them. She will offer him sex and try to initiate it as she admitted to me before. This is so toxic.

[eeyore]

This is so toxic.

Then you will have to let go of the Toxic stuff in your life.

[eyvindr]

Hi SR,

Really sorry to hear about all of this. With all due respect, your guy sounds like a real piece of work. My guess would be he's more NPD than BPD, but who can ever really know -- so much overlap with these PDs.

If I may mark this up a little bit... .

He screwed her  behind my back from 2006-2008, then a brief stop in 2009, then it started again, then allegedly it stopped in 2010... .

His lies and cheating are so fluid that it's nearly impossible to draw lines anywhere. Frankly, I don't know whether they are screwing or not. The only thing I do know is that when I had him followed in April, by a detective... .

Do you see what's happening here, girl?

In my recent r-ship, round 2 -- after I took back my house key from my ex for the second time (and I literally had to chase her around the house and hold her purse hostage for her to give it up), I really had to consider -- do I really want to be in an r-ship with someone who I can't trust with my key?

It sucks bigtime, but sometimes the answers are right in front of us.

[patientandclear]

SR, often it is easier for outsiders to see things clearly than it is for us who are deep inside a dynamic.  This is so true for me, as demonstrated on my thread on Staying right now.

In your case, he is misdirecting your attention to the issue of whether you are controlling him, whether you want to prevent him from having any connection with other women, yada yada yada.

That isn't the issue here.

The specific issue here is that he is humiliating & hurting you on purpose.  You were awesome & not controlling with him about all this!  You told him you wanted to do something for his birthday, that that is your role in his life -- and he said he thought he'd be OK with that.  Then you texted that you didn't want to be controlling & he could make the call. He did -- and switched up on you.  Nice!  But, OK, you weren't controlling about that.  You let him make the decision you told him he could make.  Now, you asked for Saturday.  Alone.  You played out a perfect non-controlling scenario -- let him make his choices, stated your own needs, offered him an alternative way to meet your needs.

Then he went out of his way to deny you the alternative you offered and in the very most hurtful possible way -- he's going to prioritize his ex.  Because why?  Because he cares more about keeping his word to her than to you.  There is no other way to read that message.  I'm sorry.  (I'm not saying it's true -- I'm saying it's what he's saying to you, unmistakeably.)

What would it feel like to say something like this:

I completely understand that you don't want to be controlled.  I'm on board with that.  I don't want to be controlled either.  I've tried to find some ways so you can meet my needs and still ensure you have the freedom to make choices.

However, what I need is to know I am your priority, compared to other women.  What you're telling me with this sequence of events is that I am not.  If I want something, you seem to go out of your way to ensure I cannot have that.  And you can do that.  But if you do, we don't have the r/s I thought you wanted and that I wanted.  Because in such a r/s, I would be the priority, and I wouldn't have to wonder and scramble to check on that.  I'm taking a break from the r/s.  Do what you want to do on Saturday and otherwise.  If this starts to make sense to you & you can respect what I'm saying about being a priority, we can talk.



I am not saying that he can or will come to that realization, or that if he says he has, that it will stick. Scout's point that this seems to be who he is & it doesn't work for you is important.  But without having at least this line, you are risking betraying yourself, right here & now.

More .

[eyvindr]

patientandclear --

+++1 on the suggestion -- awesome.

[Javagirl]

Siamese,

Sometimes, as women, we put up with so much because we want to believe that the other person thinks as we do and knows and respects boundaries but some men just dont think that way.  My exBf, had BPD and NPD and the women were constant.   I never actually caught him but I had my suspicions.  It did slow when I put my foot down but there was always a text that would sneak through.  My previous relationship of 10 years was nothing like that.  No women at all, very trustworthy.  I went from one extreme to another and I thought to myself that maybe I was expecting too much simply because I wasn't used to it.  WTH?  No.  There should be boundaries when you are in a r/s and sleeping with this person.  The bottom line is he wil never change so either get used to it and live with it (which you know is ludicrous) or get out for your own sanity.  I know it's not something you want to hear, I didn't want to hear it but now that I'm a few weeks removed from it I'm at peace knowing that he is free to bed anyone he wants and I don't have to worry about his  whereabouts.  I guess I just got fed up.  Someday you will too.  I do like the last suggestion but if I said that to my ex, he would have given me the silent treatment indefinitely - these guys don't think like a rational reasonable person.  That is the main problem.

[patientandclear]

I agree with JG, he wouldn't like the course of action I suggested to you, SR.  What I am really suggesting is that you step away.  The words I wrote are the explanation that provides him a way back on the off chance that he commits to getting his act together, which some of us on these boards seem to think (delude ourselves?) is within the realm of possibility.  Maybe we just feel better setting something up this way because it respects the other person -- instead of saying "I know you'll never get this," you say "if you ever get this ... .".  It's just kinder and puts the ball in their court rather than judging them.

Short term, sure, silent treatment or whatever might be the result.  It might stay that way forever.  More likely, he comes back weeks or months from now saying you were right, now he understands, he admires you for taking this stance ... .  And that moves you & you take him back.

And then Scout's & Javegirl's points that this is who he is and it's unlikely to change, will become highly relevant.

But sure, he is going to resist this framework.  It isn't what he thinks he wants, which is you on any terms that he feels like.  You have to be able to push through that if you are not going to turn into a quivering bowl of jello.

[eyvindr]

Hi Javagirl --

I think you're absolutely right that there should be boundaries.

My previous relationship of 10 years was nothing like that.  No women at all, very trustworthy.  I went from one extreme to another and I thought to myself that maybe I was expecting too much simply because I wasn't used to it.  WTH?  No.  There should be boundaries when you are in a r/s and sleeping with this person.

I have a question though, if you feel comfortable answering it. I'm not familiar with your story, so if I'm asking you to repeat something, I apologize -- if you've posted it already, feel free to post a link to it and I'll go read it. My question is about your last r-ship. You said it lasted 10 yrs, and was very trustworthy -- clearly doesn't sound like you were with someone with BPD before. Why did that r-ship end?

[Javagirl]

Patientsandclear - I loved your approach and it makes a great deal of sense to us rational people. If I ever talk to my ex pwBPD I might use that exact approach but I know it will get me nowhere but in the remote chance he becomes normal at least it's available for him to think about.

Eyvindr - great question.  I left my last relationship because there was no fun, no passion, no traveling, some controlling aspects that I thought at the time was not living.  The irony is I immediately found pwBPD and it was everything I hoped for and thought should be... .up until about month 3 - that's when the weird over the top BPD behavior kicked in.  Do I regret my breakup with the non-BPD guy.  Sometimes.  I went from boring and stable to fun and unstable.  I got to see parts of the world this past year that I wouldn't have but was it worth it.   As long as I can successfully move on and let go of the past I'd actually say yes which might be surprising to some.  My BPD was very fun and smart and changed my mindset about life.  As long as I'm not scarred long term, is say it was a learning experience and and adventure and move on from there.  I know easier said than done but I'm hopeful.

[eyvindr]

Javagirl --

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

Do I regret my breakup with the non-BPD guy.  Sometimes.  I went from boring and stable to fun and unstable.  I got to see parts of the world this past year that I wouldn't have but was it worth it.   As long as I can successfully move on and let go of the past I'd actually say yes which might be surprising to some.  My BPD was very fun and smart and changed my mindset about life.  As long as I'm not scarred long term, is say it was a learning experience and and adventure and move on from there.  I know easier said than done but I'm hopeful.

I know how you feel. I know and have accepted, sadly, that I'm not cut out for the lifetime of emotional extremes that would inevitably come with a long-term r/s with my ex. That's not to say that I don't wish I could have it, or that I were somehow wired in a way that I could be with her without getting put through the emotional wringer at least once a month. I don't regret the good things that we shared together, and a part of me will always miss those times. I'm glad we shared them, but, like you, I realized it was time to accept reality -- and to try to move one before being scarred badly, and with hope.

[123Phoebe]

I called him Tuesday after hearing that he acted as though he was a victim because I didn't call him. (It was his place to call me back after he hung up on me)

Then why did you call him?

Reply to Phoebe:

He screwed her behind my back from 2006-2008, then a brief stop in 2009, then it started again, then allegedly it stopped in 2010, yet she barged into a restaurant in 2012 and said it was happening all along. He denied that. He admitted the reasons why in the past, but said he would not own something he didn't do and she was lying. How noble of him.

His lies and cheating are so fluid that it's nearly impossible to draw lines anywhere. Frankly, I don't know whether they are screwing or not. The only thing I do know is that when I had him followed in April, by a detective, when he took her out at her request, there was zero affection   - zero - not even a hug at the end of the night. So, I was somewhat hopeful.  Yet, this man I believe is addicted to sex and watches porn daily. His ex is desperate for him and it makes no difference to him that she's hideous by accounts of all who know her.  It's a money/security relationship with them. She will offer him sex and try to initiate it as she admitted to me before. This is so toxic.

I guess I'm just not understanding why you're in this when you're not happy at all and suspect him of all kinds of things.

What is the allure?  What's keeping you hooked in?

[connect]

Hello SR,

How are things going for you today? 

[Siamese Rescue]

I'm replying from iPhone so this will be limited. I got so many thought provoking replies and I appreciate everyone taking time to respond. I shopped with my Mom yesterday and stayed home last night. It was hard knowing he was with her. My Mom was adamant that I not text him my sarcastic text I had drafted. So I didn't text him.

I don't know how I can be in love with this man after all that has happened. It's become such a way of life. The positive is that I recognize he has a personality disorder and that dilutes my taking it so personally. I have a lot of anxiety and it surrounds many issues. I'm doing the right things as far as getting out of the house, doing things. Still I am aching inside and feel scared that the guy who came back to me last month was not the same one I knew. He has changed so much. I don't know how to describe it. He was slightly more mature in a few tiny little areas... but even more unstable and psychotic in many other ways. I'm sad that the closeness we had in the past wasn't there this time because both of us are so angry. We both are angry about certain things.

My issue is that I am frustrated we never sat with a therapist or professional. Although I'm not sure it will matter.

[Siamese Rescue]

oh, one last thing. I have recently gone to a new therapist. Like the one before, the minute I describe our personalities the therapist immediately says "you need to get away" and then I feel like no one is even willing to explain to my exbf how his disorder or personality affects our relationship. That's all I really want. I'm sure the experts will say the therapists are correct and in that same vein our first therapist and some people who are close to us who say "Well, he won't listen to it" and that annoys and frustrates me is that my opinion is that IT SHOULD STILL BE SAID TO HIM otherwise he thinks his behavior is fine! Even if he chooses to ignore the observations and suggestions and advice and instructions, they should still be verbalized, otherwise he thinks his crap that he pulls is normal and I'm the only one who has a problem with it! Ugh!

[eeyore]

Please read the links below.  I think you are still stuck in trying to fix him.  You really need to examine why you aren't taking responsibility for why you stay.  Telling him isn't going to help you.  And it most certainly won't help your relationship with him.

It's possible all the other women before you have also tried to help him or tell him.  He continues to learn ways to be more abusive and get away with it. 

I feel like no one is even willing to explain to my exbf how his disorder or personality affects our relationship. That's all I really want.

   

PERSPECTIVES: Telling someone that you think they have BPD

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=76633.0

"It is important to look at the reason behind wanting a spouse, or anyone, to be diagnosed with a personality disorder. Often, relationships with BPs are difficult and fraught with hurt, anger, and misunderstandings. It can be hard to empathize with the BP, and it can be difficult not to see a diagnosis such as borderline personality disorder (BPD) as a validation, proof that the BP has been wrong and hurtful in the relationship.

I'm sure the experts will say the therapists are correct and in that same vein our first therapist and some people who are close to us who say "Well, he won't listen to it" and that annoys and frustrates me is that my opinion is that IT SHOULD STILL BE SAID TO HIM otherwise he thinks his behavior is fine!

His behavior isn't fine.  This isn't about him it's about YOU.  If You and everyone else didn't allow the abuse to get so bad then he would never have anybody in his life.  That would be HIS reason to figure out why.  Until he sees a need to figure out a WHY telling him will only result in him hurting you more.  Do you really want him to hurt you more?  Cause you more pain?  What would the purpose of that be?   You would be the perpetrator of causing him to show you how YOU are WRONG.  The only thing you have done wrong is to keep accepting poor behavior.  And so I ask you again WHY are you doing that? 

PERSPECTIVES: Acceptance - the final stage of grieving

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=72841.0

[peas]

I have recently gone to a new therapist. Like the one before, the minute I describe our personalities the therapist immediately says "you need to get away"

We should switch therapists. My therapist is okay, but she has made some remarks that have concerned me during my sessions with her -- she sounds downright sympathetic about my ex and has alluded to "are you sure it's over?" and "do you want him back?" or "have you tried calling him?" when I should be hearing ":)on't you see this person is bad for you? Get the hell away from this guy." It's like she thinks there could be a second chance or happy ending.

Maybe I have not conveyed enough to her the degree of disrespect and verbal and emotional abuse this guy has put me through or that this guy dumped me for a reason and wants nothing to do with me. But she seems to be giving him a pass when I talk about him.

[Siamese Rescue]

That was our one and only therapist, who was his client initially and who was/is an elderly woman who was always encouraging  me to stick with him and if I've come this far blah blah... .He had her feeling sorry for him all the time. I need to read the links that have been furnished here (thank you!) ... .

I read so much. Some things say, "leave them"! And other things say, "assure them you won't leave them!"... .

It's exhausting. Why can't he just be "normal" so we could have had a decent life. We connect in a thousand ways, and then there's the Hyde side that destroys it all. I know Hyde will never go away but I thought with treatment he could be tolerable and manageable... .Now I have to find my inmer strength and survive this miserable recycle that I allowed to happen.

[Scout99]

That was our one and only therapist, who was his client initially and who was/is an elderly woman who was always encouraging  me to stick with him and if I've come this far blah blah... .He had her feeling sorry for him all the time. I need to read the links that have been furnished here (thank you!) ... .

I read so much. Some things say, "leave them"! And other things say, "assure them you won't leave them!"... .

It's exhausting. Why can't he just be "normal" so we could have had a decent life. We connect in a thousand ways, and then there's the Hyde side that destroys it all. I know Hyde will never go away but I thought with treatment he could be tolerable and manageable... .Now I have to find my inmer strength and survive this miserable recycle that I allowed to happen.

I so understand and can also remember how frustrating it was to feel all those conflicting emotions that you are expressing so clearly right now... .Some of the most confusing, frustrating and painful things is to be ambivalent and not knowing full out what we want, think and feel... .And that causes a lot of turmoil in us as non's as well... .

And I truly think this is your biggest problem at the moment... .The fact that you don't know what you really want... .On one hand you want him. But you don't want him the way he is now, but instead you want him to be the way he was to you in the beginning and in moments when he is treating you well... .And then you don't want him the way he is now where he is showing you he is not willing to change and gives you partly dysregulated behavior and also behavior that is not compatible with your boundaries... .

The hard thing to face here for you is the fact that he is not one or the other, but he is actually both. And even though his behaviors may change a bit to the better with treatment... .In all honesty it will not make him just become the one part of him that you want and like... .Since that part too is not all healthy but part of his disorder as well... .The needy and validity seeking part... .

To be able to have a relationship wit a pw BPD takes radical acceptance of who they are, with all their flaws and dysregulations... .And an understanding that they won't be able to provide us with security and validation and stability the way a relationship with a healthy person can... .It takes a lot of balance and self security to be able to have a relationship with a person who has a severe disorder, and that will it take even if they come successfully through a treatment... .Since treatment will not eliminate or cure the disorder, it will just teach them better and alternative coping tools. But it is still up to the individual to choose to use the new tools every day instead of going back to old patterns. And some are better at it than others, and some triggers will still be too hard for them to handle... .

I wonder a little bit about this therapist of yours... .

Did I get it right that she is a former client if his? What kind of client? And how does that work that they have some kind of connection with each other that you don't? To me that sounds a bit unprofessional I must say... .If couples counseling is to be successful there can be no bias towards one of the party's from the therapist... .And especially not in a situation like this!

Secondly... .Both he and you need separate counseling! How else are you going to be able to vent all your ambivalence and dare to be honest about all the things you feel?

At the same time he needs specific therapy treatment geared towards his disorder. Couples therapy will not cut it... .

Again, a therapists job is not to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do, whether it be about you sticking by your man, or him to stop his behavior... .That is not therapy... .That is small talk and gossiping at the coffe shop with friends... .

A therapist never gives advice per se... .They may help you see different options, but it will always have to be you doing the choosing and decision making in your life!

A word on "leave him" and "assure him you won't leave"... .

The only one who can make the decision to leave is you. And that decision should be based on your will and what you feel is the right thing for you to do.

I would like to have a word with whomever tells you to assure him you won't leave... .Since that is an advice that nobody on this planet can get anywhere with!  First of all, we can never make anyone such a promise... .Not even to our children... .We may die tomorrow. And there can happen thousands of things in life and in us that makes us have to leave our partners.

Secondly there is no way in h*ll anyone can reassure a pw BPD out of their fear of abandonment! Actually that would not even be a good thing! We all harbor a healthy amount of fear of abandonment that keeps us human. What is needed for a pw BPD is to learn themselves to accept fear of abandonment as a part of life. And that life doesn't stand or fall with it... .They need to heal themselves from their exaggerated fear of abandonment. Not vanquish it... .So acceptance is the key for them too... .

Third they will never be able to trust anybody's word of not abandoning them since they believe at their very core everybody will eventually abandon them anyway, so all it does is make them trust us less if we keep telling them we won't... .The only thing we can do is choose to stay in the moment. No more no less... .

The most important thing for you at this time is to take some time and listen to your own inner voice and figure out if this is a relationship you really want or if it is not... .From your perspective... .You are the most important person in your life! And you deserve to feel good and have a relationship that honors your needs and your wishes for a partnership... .

I truly from my heart wish you all the Best!

Scout99

[Siamese Rescue]

I need to read all these posted replies tonight after I finish packing. The kindness of strangers is always touching. There is a huge amount of logical sensical well thought out information that's been afforded to me. I appreciate it, especially the last post, which lays it out in very precise and accurate terms. Couldn't have described it better myself. Flying out tomorrow for a work trip and I'm grateful to all of you for the support and advice. Lastly, I think I read somewhere that someone wanted to know why I stay. I think I've just been with him so long -7 years- that it's a way of life. I'm terrible with change. I know those are areas I need to work on myself and for me.

[Siamese Rescue]

p.s. I seem to never let go and I never give up. Pretty dangerous way to be.