Looks like 'downandin' is now down and out

[downandin]

After all these years of me trying to make things work, putting up with all the strains she has put on the relationship, and trying to remain the rock for the kids, my wife calmly walked into the laundry room yesterday as I was folding the clothes and handed me a note that said she wants a separation.  And, get this, she wants me to be the one to leave.  I pay all the mortgage, utilities, and car payment, and she wants me to leave.  Frankly, I have nowhere to go.  I am devastated, physically sick and, quite frankly, still too much in shock to go into any more details right now.  I'm sorry to all of those here who have tried to help me make this work.  I have failed... .

[Just Stumbling Along]

I am sorry that this is happening to you.

I can relate, a similar thing happened to me. 

Please don't think that you have failed.  You have not.  You have worked and struggled to make your relationship work.  HOWEVER, one person can not make a relationship happen.  No one person is ever strong enough to create a relationship by himself.  Two persons have to want the relationship and have to work together to make that happen.  One person bouncing here to there creating chaos and the other person doing damage control is not an adult healthy relationship. 

I also understand the having no where to go.  Sometimes their demands are so unrealistic, childish, and self centered; it is stunning.  You will find a way through.  Realize the strength that you have shown.  Focus on what is best for you and your children. 

Try to place your needs higher on the priorities list than in the past.

All will be well, it takes time.  Wishing the best for you and your children.  Stay Strong!

[downandin]

I'm just really close today to having a complete emotional breakdown, and I don't know what to do to stop it.  I would close my eyes last night (on the couch) for a few moments and then have a horrible nightmare, it continued all night.  I am having constant shakes today, and feel like I could just completely fall apart at any second.  I'm at work, but if I weren't, I still would have nowhere else to go.

[Surnia]

Downandin

So sorry to hear this! 

This is really tough.

Do you have a good friend or a family member? Someone you can stay with?

We are here for you!

[downandin]

Downandin

So sorry to hear this!  

This is really tough.

Do you have a good friend or a family member? Someone you can stay with?

We are here for you!

Thanks,

I have one close friend who has been through a similar marriage/divorce who is checking in on me as he can.  To be bluntly honest, though, I'm setting what may be my last 'boundary,' that being that I am not leaving my home.  She is the one who asked for the separation, so she is the one who will have to 'separate.'  I do not think this us wrong of me.  She has many more options for a place to stay than I do.  And even though the kids are my stepchildren, they are all older teenagers and there is absolutely no reason they need to go with their mother.  That may sound harsh, but it is the way I feel.

[Iolair]

To be bluntly honest, though, I'm setting what may be my last 'boundary,' that being that I am not leaving my home.  She is the one who asked for the separation, so she is the one who will have to 'separate.'  I do not think this us wrong of me. 

I'm glad to hear you say this. I'm very sorry for what you are going through, I know you must be in shock. I'm glad you're thinking of yourself right now, though. You have to take care of you first, right? She shouldn't be able to force you out of your own home.

 Hang in there, talk to your friend as much as you can, and talk to us when you need to, too!

[Surnia]

I do not think this us wrong of me.  She has many more options for a place to stay than I do.  And even though the kids are my stepchildren, they are all older teenagers and there is absolutely no reason they need to go with their mother.  That may sound harsh, but it is the way I feel.

I don't think this is harsh and not wrong to stay. If you can handle it, stay your ground! 

[Wrongturn1]

Downandin: I would urge you NOT to leave the house. If your name is on the mortgage or title and you pay the bills, you have more of a right to stay there than your wife does.  She is the one who wants the separation, so she is free to go, but she has no right to ask you to leave.

Also, leaving the house might put you in a weaker legal position if the courts get involved in the future, so I repeat, don't leave!

[briefcase]

You need to talk to a lawyer before you leave the house or make any other big decisions.  You haven't failed, you can't control her actions. 

[downandin]

You need to talk to a lawyer before you leave the house or make any other big decisions.  You haven't failed, you can't control her actions.




So, you think I shouldn't still try to get her to change her mind?  I don't want a divorce.  If we divorce, my stepchildren will loose their free college tuition (because I am employed by the college) as well as their health insurance.  I'm thinking of them and the future, and she is thinking of herself and the now.

Not to mention that she has us so far in dept that I can't afford a lawyer... .

[ForeverDad]

Hmm... .she asked for a separation only, not a divorce?  Sounds like she wants the benefits of being married (a place to live and financial support) but no responsibilities (living together, expected intimacy, etc).

If you realize despite your endless efforts that the marriage won't work - seems that she has come to that conclusion even if you haven't - then you can certainly seek inexpensive legal consultations with family law attorneys and determine whether it is cleaner and better long term to file for divorce.  Most likely it is.

Hmm... .seems to me she hasn't thought this through.  You have the leverage of college for the kids.  Maybe that's why she only wants a separation?  Sadly, that's not a reason to stay married and keep suffering.  You can't force her to be nice or to change.  Generally only intensive therapy by emotionally neutral and experienced professionals will help and then only if she stops Denial of her issues and perceptions and works on her thinking and behaviors - a very hard thing to do.

Footnote:  In most cases, a separation is only a partial fix.  If the marriage is over, divorce is the way to go.  My lawyer once told me that in about 20 years of practice he had only done two separations and they were (1) not high conflict and (2) done only so the other spouse could keep medical insurance.  My instant impression is that she wants to milk the marriage but not have you in her life?

The #1 issue in a divorce is usually custody.  If the children are your step-children and you haven't adopted them, then that removes the biggest problem you might have.  They are her legal responsibility, not yours.  That leaves the financial aspect of the marriage.  Each state and even locality is different.

Consultations with multiple lawyers can help you determine in general your situation, how much she probably gets to walk away with, whether the marriage was long enough fr her to seek and receive spousal support, how the assets and debts will be split, etc.  A 7-8 year marriage generally isn't considered a long term marriage, so likely alimony, if any, would be very limited and almost surely no more than half the length of the marriage.

Until you get those consultations, lay low.  If she demands a response, put it off, say you're still pondering what you'll do.  Under no circumstances should you share which options or strategies you're considering, divulge information in her interrogations that should be kept confidential, give in to demands or ultimatums.

Especially do not get into arguments with her where you're responding in kind.  She may later claim you're abusive, touching her, restraining her or even hitting her.  Warning, emergency responders don't care about the truth, they just want to end the incident usually by separation and often that means carting the person of the Male Gender off to jail.  Yeah, that sucks. :'(  So be aware and beware.  It's common for a pwBPD to make false allegations to gain the upper hand in court or at least to make the other look worse.  If she is bold and determined enough she can manage to get a restraining/protection order and then she gets instant control for a few weeks or even months to years.

Repeat:  Separation and the time leading up to it are especially prone to heightened conflict and even false allegations.  If she has threatened to make allegations or even contemplated it, then consider yourself warned.  Protect yourself.  How?  Don't touch her or even bump past her when she's simmering or ranting and raging.  Don't get egged into responding in any way that could be twisted into seeming abusive or aggressive.  Get away if necessary and ponder whether to call the police.  But just because you called the police or called them first is no guarantee they'll listen to you over your spouse's version of events.  That's why many here started recording so we had proof we didn't do anything wrong.  I recorded, I viewed it as a special form of insurance.

[Mutt]

You need to talk to a lawyer before you leave the house or make any other big decisions.  You haven't failed, you can't control her actions.




So, you think I shouldn't still try to get her to change her mind?  I don't want a divorce.  If we divorce, my stepchildren will loose their free college tuition (because I am employed by the college) as well as their health insurance.  I'm thinking of them and the future, and she is thinking of herself and the now.

Not to mention that she has us so far in dept that I can't afford a lawyer... .

The same thing happened to me, my spouse wanted me to leave and said she would give me an uncontested divorce and I could have the kids anytime I wanted too... .if I just left. Divorce and custody is nothing but uncontested, she alienated me from the kids and is indifferent about the divorce that she wanted. But she was intent of having me out. I was angry and confused, because I paid for everything. I didn't leave, but a few months later she said she wanted to talk to me and simply said "I'm telling family and friends I'm leaving you" This was the point that she had painted me black and secured my replacement. I couldn't talk sense to her. I told her her decision does not just affect her but it affects 5 other people. I begged to go back to marriage counselling and she didn't want to discuss anything. She just said "I'm done." It's game over when your painted black.

She left in February of 2013 with the kids without a job with the kids and managed to get a subsidized house which was much nicer than our rental apartment. She didn't claim my income.  She brought out POSOM and introduced him to the kids after moving out. I looked the other way and gave her the benefit of the doubt in 2012 because I just didn't think that she could betray me with an affair but she was having an affair. I had thought the affair had started in June from the changes in her behavior. I went back and read e-mails in March of 2012 and she wanted a divorce right then and there because she was working on the replacement.

I know what your feeling. Stay strong as hard as it is. Did this come out of the blue? Have you noticed anything else with her lately?

[downandin]

Did this come out of the blue? Have you noticed anything else with her lately?

She weighed over 300lbs in May, when she had bariatric surgery, and has lost over 60lbs since.  She obviously thinks she can do better than me now, without even giving me the chance to be with the 'new' her. 

[Waddams]

She weighed over 300lbs in May, when she had bariatric surgery, and has lost over 60lbs since.  She obviously thinks she can do better than me now, without even giving me the chance to be with the 'new' her.

I mean this gently... .but it's time to stop thinking about her.  It's time to start thinking about you.  What is YOUR next step?  She wants out, fine she can leave.  She wants her kids taken care of, fine she and their biological/legally responsible father can see to that.

Consult a lawyer pronto.  Go over the particulars of your situation, and find out what you have to do to get them out of the house.  If the kids question things, direct them to their mother as she's the one that wants out.  Whose name is on the house by the way?  Is it joint or just yours?

Also, whatever new drama she tries to start, don't engage.  Pick yourself a place of the house to claim as yours where you can go to stay separate from her.  And plan ahead.  Get an escape bag ready and have in it spare cloths, a few hundred bucks, etc.  Be ready to bolt and spend a night in a hotel.  If she has any big episodes, DO NOT CALL THE COPS! No matter what.  Don't give her chance to play poor hurt woman in front of them.  Just leave and find somewhere else to be.  Don't lay a hand on her, if she hits you, let her, just get away, and then address the incident once you have gotten out of the immediate crisis.

Might be a good idea to carry a voice recorder as well.  These situations, especially when you put your foot down and don't just leave as she wishes, tend to escalate their rage episodes.  Let her carry on as much as she wants, don't respond, don't escalate, just leave and create distance to protect yourself.  Have the recordings to protect yourself if she calls the cops and makes false accusations.

I'm sorry you're going through this.  It will get better.  You'll get through it, and be better off when you're done.  Keep coming back, keep posting, and let us help as much as we can.

[Mutt]

These situations, especially when you put your foot down and don't just leave as she wishes, tend to escalate their rage episodes.

I wish I had used a voice recorder last year and yes, I can't speak for all, but my uBPDw wife did escalate her rage episodes. It had almost become a daily ritual after I had put my foot down.

Protect yourself. There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread.

[downandin]

She wants her kids taken care of, fine she and their biological/legally responsible father can see to that.

My biological father deserted me and theirs has deserted them.  I will not desert them as well.  They are mine and I love them, no matter who was their sperm donor (who refused to let me adopt them, by the way... .I TRIED).  I don't mean to sound harsh, but they call me ':)addy.'  The two oldest are 18 and 19, so they can stay wherever they want, but my baby is only 17 and is only a Junior in HS and is going through a lot of emotional problems himself.  Also, I have no kids of my own and am now 45, so I probably will never have biological kids/grandkids.  Again, I don't mean to sound harsh either, but it is not as Black/White as you make it sound!

[Waddams]

My biological father deserted me and theirs has deserted them.  I will not desert them as well.  They are mine and I love them, no matter who was their sperm donor (who refused to let me adopt them, by the way... .I TRIED).  I don't mean to sound harsh, but they call me ':)addy.'  The two oldest are 18 and 19, so they can stay wherever they want, but my baby is only 17 and is only a Junior in HS and is going through a lot of emotional problems himself.  Also, I have no kids of my own and am now 45, so I probably will never have biological kids/grandkids.  Again, I don't mean to sound harsh either, but it is not as Black/White as you make it sound!

I understand all that but understand you won't have any legal standing with the 17 y/o. 

I know there are ways to legally adopt an adult.  Maybe ask a lawyer about that.  If you can legally adopt the adults (I would assume the adult kids don't need their dad's consent) and the 17 y/o when he comes of age, then perhaps you can still be there for them for college tuition regardless of what their mother or bio dad does or don't do.

Again, I'm sorry you're going through all this and I know it's a lot to take in and process.  You won't be able to do it all right now, to be honest.  None of us did when we went through it either.  I'd just encourage you at the moment though to put yourself first no matter what.  It sounds like with the kids being as old as they are, you have the ability to go around their mother and just deal with the kids directly. 

You can't be there for others in the future if you don't take care of yourself and protect yourself now.  The sooner you can start to develop a "it's just business" mindset about the divorce, the better off you will be. 

[ForeverDad]

They are right, they are all adults or will be within a year.  Then their mother doesn't enter into the equation AT ALL.  Within a year you ALL will be adults and able to choose and select whichever relationships you want to continue or end.  As adults they can choose to live where they wish, even with you if you are agreeable (which you are).  So separate your concerns for them from concerns for her.  Their relationship with their mother is whatever they and their mother want it to be.  You don't have to suffer her repeated wrath or obstruction or financial drain just to be nice to the children.

The KEY POINT is that she is now (or will soon) fight you for more $$$, perceived wrongs however petty or silly they are, sabotage you just to spite and retaliate, etc.  Rather than a trusted friend and lover, you have someone who disrespects you and is effectively dumping you.  Correction, is trying to kick you out of your home.

So can you separate yourself from wanting to stay with a woman who doesn't want you versus your presumably good relationship with her children?  If they want an education at your place of employment, the college will allow it and they have a good relationship with you, then fine invite them to live with you.

You want to live with a fantasy dream wife.  Maybe she seemed like that at the beginning, but that's not her anymore.  Sad.  If it weren't for (1) the risks of legal trouble she could stir up and (2) the added emotional pain and suffering she would keep inflicting, yes, you could stay.  But the pattern is clear.  You've been around her for nearly a decade right?  You know the odds of her drastically changing for the better are slim to none at best.  In your first post you said "She absolutely will not go for treatment."  She is firmly in Denial.  You cannot convince her otherwise.  Only she can change herself and clearly, she hasn't which also means she won't.  What other choice do you have but to protect yourself?  That means Let Her Go.  For yourself, Let Go that fantasy of a miraculous change.  It hasn't happened in all these years, it's only gotten worse, a good predictor for the future if things stay the way they are.

Let living with you come with conditions of good behavior, in other words, finally set some good strong boundaries of proper behavior.  Your wife has steamrollered over any boundaries you had so many times that they're non-existent.  Time to strategize, draw close those who love and appreciate you and - sad but necessary - protect yourself at last and let go those who are fighting against you.  It will be a process to disengage emotionally and legally but the relief, peace and quiet will astound you.  I recall the first night my ex was gone, the peace and quiet was shouting from the walls.

[momtara]

she may change her mind in a few days.  although maybe that's not necessarily good.

at 45, you do have chances to have your own kids someday.  but I know you don't want your family life to implode and you love the kids you have already.  hang in there.  it looks bleak right now.  may not always be.

[ForeverDad]

Also, keep that note she handed you as documentation.  It might be helpful at a future time.  For example, she might start telling people you're mean, abusive, dumping her, kicking her out, whatever.  Even the boys.  Everyone wants to look good, but pwBPD (and other acting out PDs) will lie and distort the truth in order to seek advocates.  When based on lies and disinformation, we call those conned advocates Negative Advocates.  If you have that note and keep it safe then you can have proof she's twisting things, she's the one that wanted to end it.

[Mono No Aware]

My only contribution to this thread is that I get handed the divorce/separation note/statement on an average of once a week.

And it doesn't occur. Wy not? Because I do not leave my own house.

Within hours or a day, her mood shifts and she returns back to the version of reality where she likes me... .I'm painted white until the next trigger.

She may leave. I cannot control that, but I can control myself.

So DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE. Then you will be leaving her... and her premptive nuclear strike will be successful in permanently sabotaging the relationship. If she leaves, you cannot control that. But you can control yourself.

[downandin]

I believe this is exactly what she is doing.  It hasn't been once a week for me, but there have been numerous threats in the past.  This is the most 'serious' one, but if you read about my experiences in the 'staying' forum, you'll see that she is not serious about leaving.  She wants me to leave so I can be the 'bad guy.'  If I leave, I am hurting her more than by staying, because I am just feeding the BPD monster.  It is really taking a toll on me, though.

[Iolair]

It is really taking a toll on me, though.

  I bet. We're here for you, though!

[ForeverDad]

The threats are a type of control and manipulation.  (Some other pwBPD won't threaten divorce, they'll threaten, for example, suicide.  But generally it too is for shock and control.  In such cases we call emergency responders since we're not the expert professionals and let them determine whether it is a control attempt or realy contemplated suicide.)  They know we don't want the marriage to fail and so we're given these ultimatums to keep us off balance and susceptible to continued manipulation, weakened boundaries and acquiescence.

You're the closest one to your spouse and you've eventually - and predictably - become a target.  It's a combination of subtle and not-so-subtle psychological warfare.  To take a twist on an old workplace satire, "The beatings will continue until {my} morale improves."  Another illustration often used here is an endless emotional roller coaster, at first the ups and downs were exhilarating but in time they are sickening and we need to get off but we feel obligated to keep riding with our partner.

Which is the real person, the sometimes nice person or the ranting and raging and obstructive person?  The answer is... .both.  It's a package deal so to speak, if the person is unwilling to change you take it or leave it.

In time many here (especially those of us on the Family Law, Divorce and Custody board) have come to this realization:  If the other person isn't going to improve behaviors significantly, making substantive progress toward recovery, then we are left with only one meaningful decision to make... .to protect ourselves and our children, if any, from any further abuse, chaos and whatever, or as much as possible.

[Mutt]

It is really taking a toll on me, though.

  I bet. We're here for you, though!

You are not alone downadin.

Chin up and keep calm.


-Mutt

[Mono No Aware]

I believe this is exactly what she is doing.  It hasn't been once a week for me, but there have been numerous threats in the past.  This is the most 'serious' one, but if you read about my experiences in the 'staying' forum, you'll see that she is not serious about leaving.  She wants me to leave so I can be the 'bad guy.'  If I leave, I am hurting her more than by staying, because I am just feeding the BPD monster.  It is really taking a toll on me, though.

Hang in there man.