Moving forward...back to court

[Free One]

Just paid the retainer for my lawyer to pursue contempt charges against uBPDexh. There are a few charges in regards to our divorce agreement. I feel confident that this is the right action for me, but scared of the process at the same time. Feeling relief to move forward and anxiety about what is going to happen.

[Matt]

Is there any risk, other than the cost of pursuing this?

Has your lawyer told you how this process works where you live, and what you can expect?  For example, will you need to testify in court, or anything else that might add a lot of stress or cost?

I wish more of us would take steps to bring consequences when we're abused, like if someone makes false statements in the legal process.  Usually we just move on and try to leave it behind... .

[Free One]

Is there any risk, other than the cost of pursuing this?

Has your lawyer told you how this process works where you live, and what you can expect?  For example, will you need to testify in court, or anything else that might add a lot of stress or cost?

I wish more of us would take steps to bring consequences when we're abused, like if someone makes false statements in the legal process.  Usually we just move on and try to leave it behind... .

Other than financial risk, I think the biggest risk is damaging my r/s with S8. We had a great summer, ex didn't take his vacation visitation, so I ended up with son more than I should have and we got stronger. Now, back to the regular schedule and school, our r/s is already being strained. I fear being painted black in my son's eyes by his dad. So, I guess it's not the processes so much that scares me as just starting conflict when things are going ok. BUT, ex has done things that he needs to be held responsible for, and me believing things are "ok" when son is with his dad is denial on my part.

The other risk is the unknown. I don't know what ex will do when he finds out. Things have not been going well in his life lately, and just knowing his thought processes, he's going to view this as me kicking him when he's down and threatening the one stable thing he has in his life - time with his son, even though custody is not being addressed right now.

[momtara]

As a therapist explained to me yesterday, when we tiptoe around and hedge, they end up doing what they want anyway.  Good for you for taking action.  Yes, court is scary.  Yes, you never know if it will trigger anger on the other side.  But you wouldn't have come this far unless your gut told you to do it.  Son will figure it out.  Maybe family counseling?

[Matt]

Yeah, you can't control what he says to your son when you're not around... .

One thing to consider is to pre-empt what your ex might say to your son, by giving your son a very simple explanation of what is going on.  "We have to go back to court, so the judge can decide about some of the issues that didn't get decided yet - nothing to do with you.  When you go to court, you have to tell the truth, and the judge is going to decide if your dad told the truth, and if not he might get fined."  Put it on the judge - it's the judge's decision not yours.  Keep it simple and fair - not "Your dad lied" but "The judge is going to decide if your dad told the truth or not."

Theoretically contempt could mean jail time, but not very much, and that's probably pretty unlikely - more likely a small fine - your lawyer will know.  Probably best not to mention jail to your son.

If you don't tell your son anything at all, that leaves him vulnerable to stuff your ex might say.

The other thing to be ready for is your ex acting out towards you.  :)on't take his calls - let them go to voice-mail.  If he e-mails you, consider whether you really need to respond at all or not.  If possible let everything go through your lawyer - only communicate with your ex by e-mail (not phone or face-to-face) and only about schedules and other kid stuff, not legal stuff.

[Matt]

Maybe family counseling?

Super-good idea, not just for this immediate stress, but for the long haul.  A good counselor can spend time with your son alone, and also with you present, and that could be a good time to share difficult stuff with him.  The counselor can also help him gain some tools for dealing with his dad.

My kids' counselor did something interesting:  she identified some things the kids wanted to say to me but hadn't, and helped them work out how to do that, and got them to have those frank talks with me:  ":)ad, sometimes when I'm telling you something important I don't think you're listening - you go back to working.  I want you to stop working and listen and talk with me about it so I know you heard me."  It was up to me to take that well and show that what she was teaching them can work.  Then she encouraged them to do the same thing with their mom - maybe more difficult because she has BPD and some other problems - but the kids had gained competence and seemed stronger.

I think a good counselor could probably help your son that way too.  I found her by first talking with the school counselor, and getting a recommendation, so I couldn't be accused of shopping around for someone who would "take my side".

[ForeverDad]

As a therapist explained to me yesterday, when we tiptoe around and hedge, they end up doing what they want anyway.  Good for you for taking action.

The disordered ex will do what he or she will want to do - or not.  Your not doing something won't greatly change that.  Your doing something won't greatly change that.  Yes, the ex might get triggered and overreact or project ex's poor behaviors onto you, but that could happen at any time anyway.  So just do what you feel is the right thing to do - or not.

Courts generally are reluctant to give severe consequences at first, until they conclude that prior admonitions fell on deaf ears.  If the judge is reluctant to give financial sanctions, not wanting one parent to feel a winner and the other parent to feel a loser, some parents have suggested to the judge that the sanction go not to the other parent but to the child, that is, the child's college education account.

[livednlearned]

Standing up for yourself and being assertive are excellent things for your son to see you do. He's at a high risk of being abusive in a r/s if he sees that his dad does it and gets away with it.

Matt's idea about being pre-emptive is also a good idea. It's a tricky situation, and everyone's situation is different, but I decided it was better to explain that it was me making decisions, and the judge's decision was secondary to my action. It was my decision to leave N/BPDx because he was being abusive, my job to keep S12 safe, my decision to end overnights. "I did xyz because your dad and I do not agree, and I decided to go to court because I wanted someone fair to help us solve our differences in opinion."

It's a little different for women than men, I think. A boy raised by a man who is abusive to his mother learns that stereotype from his dad, and can find a bazillion other examples that he is entitled to, and even expected to act that way. Please don't take this as an provocation to start a gender battle here -- I know that men here suffer awful injustices because of female stereotypes. In this context tho, with a mother-son dynamic and an abusive father, I think it's important to model it different than what Matt suggested. 

Letting him know that you are strong, assertive, and holding someone accountable for his abuse is a huge opportunity.

[Matt]

We'll said LnL.

I'm sensitive to being characterized unfairly as "controlling" - a favorite word for some lawyers representing women.

But if your truth is "I decided... .because... .", then more power to you!

[SeekerofTruth]

I wish more of us would take steps to bring consequences when we're abused, like if someone makes false statements in the legal process.  Usually we just move on and try to leave it behind... . 

I am interested in pursuing this.  However, as to respect Free One's thread I shall look to do so under a separate thread.

My question/interest pertains to pursuing my right to "fight it out in court" (pre se with limited representation) and while in court bringing up the hx of abuse with an agenda of simple

EXPOSURE for the sake of exposure.  If it helps my case so much the better.

[Free One]

As a therapist explained to me yesterday, when we tiptoe around and hedge, they end up doing what they want anyway.  Good for you for taking action.  Yes, court is scary.  Yes, you never know if it will trigger anger on the other side.  But you wouldn't have come this far unless your gut told you to do it.  Son will figure it out.  Maybe family counseling?

So true... .he does what he wants anyway and then I end up angry because he gets to get away with it. It is empowering to take action.

We had a very bad marriage counseling experience prior to the divorce. Ex lied and manipulated T and I ended up damaged from the experience, so I am reluctant to enter counseling with him again. It doesn't work for someone who doesn't really want to be there. Son has seen the same T for the past 2 years. Ex has known this, never asked to attend (except for first visit, and I said no because of our dynamic at the time), and when he has asked about son's counseling, I have encouraged him to contact T himself for all the treatment info - which he has not done.

[Free One]

Yeah, you can't control what he says to your son when you're not around... .

One thing to consider is to pre-empt what your ex might say to your son, by giving your son a very simple explanation of what is going on.  "We have to go back to court, so the judge can decide about some of the issues that didn't get decided yet - nothing to do with you.  When you go to court, you have to tell the truth, and the judge is going to decide if your dad told the truth, and if not he might get fined."  Put it on the judge - it's the judge's decision not yours.  Keep it simple and fair - not "Your dad lied" but "The judge is going to decide if your dad told the truth or not."

Theoretically contempt could mean jail time, but not very much, and that's probably pretty unlikely - more likely a small fine - your lawyer will know.  Probably best not to mention jail to your son.

If you don't tell your son anything at all, that leaves him vulnerable to stuff your ex might say.

The other thing to be ready for is your ex acting out towards you.  :)on't take his calls - let them go to voice-mail.  If he e-mails you, consider whether you really need to respond at all or not.  If possible let everything go through your lawyer - only communicate with your ex by e-mail (not phone or face-to-face) and only about schedules and other kid stuff, not legal stuff.

I really think this is great advice, and I love your wording of it. It has worked well in the past to put the judge in as decider.

There is a catch with this though, in our agreement, it says that neither one of us will discuss the divorce process or proceeding with our son. I'm worried if I bring it up first, ex will use it against me.

I am really good at mostly communicating through email. I carry a voice recorder and do all that kind of stuff.

[Free One]

It's a little different for women than men, I think. A boy raised by a man who is abusive to his mother learns that stereotype from his dad, and can find a bazillion other examples that he is entitled to, and even expected to act that way. Please don't take this as an provocation to start a gender battle here -- I know that men here suffer awful injustices because of female stereotypes. In this context tho, with a mother-son dynamic and an abusive father, I think it's important to model it different than what Matt suggested. 

Very true. There can still be the general stereotype that men are entitled to have submissive women in our society. Unfortunately, I think ex uses this kind of thinking gain son's favor (you don't have to follow mom's rules, because daddy doesn't have rules). Ex is also very degrading to women in general, mostly in sexual ways.

[livednlearned]

It's a little different for women than men, I think. A boy raised by a man who is abusive to his mother learns that stereotype from his dad, and can find a bazillion other examples that he is entitled to, and even expected to act that way. Please don't take this as an provocation to start a gender battle here -- I know that men here suffer awful injustices because of female stereotypes. In this context tho, with a mother-son dynamic and an abusive father, I think it's important to model it different than what Matt suggested. 

Very true. There can still be the general stereotype that men are entitled to have submissive women in our society. Unfortunately, I think ex uses this kind of thinking gain son's favor (you don't have to follow mom's rules, because daddy doesn't have rules). Ex is also very degrading to women in general, mostly in sexual ways.

Not sure if you're familiar with Lundy Bancroft -- he has a book called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. Fascinating to read, especially if your ex is high-functioning abusive. He also writes a book called When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse. Excellent stuff in there about how to break the cycle so your kid doesn't repeat what he experienced. By abuse, he means chronic mistreatment. I realized that I was allowing my son to get away with things because he was a kid, not realizing he was displaying patterns he learned from his dad. As a non, I had to assert boundaries with my son at the same time I was protecting him -- not easy! But super important.

[Free One]

Livedinlearned - YES! That is one of the best books I've read. I read it a few months ago; maybe it's time for a reread.

[Free One]

Paperwork is being filed today - 13 counts of contempt. First court day in two weeks. He doesn't know about it yet.

Total mixed emotions of feeling very empowered, scared and anxious.

I did it. I took the first step in standing up to him.

[momtara]

Good for you!

My experience with family counselors wasn't great either - but it all depends on if they have a BS detector or not.

[livednlearned]

I did it. I took the first step in standing up to him.

Even if he hasn't been physically abusive to you in the past, it's a good idea to be extra safe now. And prepare for an extinction burst of some kind. He'll be trying to intimidate you in the weeks ahead.

[ForeverDad]

Even if he hasn't been physically abusive to you in the past, it's a good idea to be extra safe now. And prepare for an extinction burst of some kind. He'll be trying to intimidate you in the weeks ahead.

... .trying to get you to go back to the way things were, back into that unhealthy comfort zone.

[Free One]

Thanks. I did have a friend suggest to have an alternate place to stay for the weekend if needed. So far, haven't seen an outburst yet from ex. I am sure he was notified about the contempt because he did leave a VM wanting to speak with Son, and it was dripping with sarcasm. That may change as he has time to consult a L and realizes what he is facing.

[Free One]

One thing I wanted to add, is that I was feeling very anxious about taking action. I was feeling very guilty about doing this and was scared I was doing the wrong thing. I had a great phone conversation with a friend, who does not know what is going on. I couldn't tell her because my son was home and I didn't want to risk him hearing. She just said very kind, supportive things, but in particular, she said I needed to do be putting myself first and taking care of myself. I, of course, have heard this 1,000 times before, but it struck a chord this time. I realized, for maybe the first time ever, I took this action because it is what I NEEDED. The guilt feelings were coming up because I felt bad that it feels good to take action against ex. The guilt was coming up because I was worried action will hurt son (that is what ex wants me to think).

It feels so empowering now that I have shifted my thinking to realize that I am doing this because it is what I need to do. Will it hurt ex? Yes, probably. Will it hurt son? Maybe, but I think the lesson of me taking a stand will counteract that (thanks livednlearned for helping me see that). Does it mean it will be easy? No, but it sure feels easier now that it feels RIGHT. 

[ForeverDad]

It's just a few letters but there is a vast difference between needs (normal if within reason) and neediness (unhealthy if excessive).  Ponder that.

Also ponder that as much as you/we feel guilty, there's generally an absence of it with our disordered ex's.  Why should only one feel guilty while also suffering stress of demands and rages, experiencing consequences of past decisions and inaction, etc?

[livednlearned]

It feels so empowering now that I have shifted my thinking to realize that I am doing this because it is what I need to do. Will it hurt ex? Yes, probably. Will it hurt son? Maybe, but I think the lesson of me taking a stand will counteract that (thanks livednlearned for helping me see that). Does it mean it will be easy? No, but it sure feels easier now that it feels RIGHT. 

This is huge!

Standing up to someone who can inflict real consequences on you, potentially harming the person you are hard-wired to protect -- that is not for the faint-hearted. That's serious strength.

You're changing the script! 

[Free One]

It's just a few letters but there is a vast difference between needs (normal if within reason) and neediness (unhealthy if excessive).  Ponder that.

Also ponder that as much as you/we feel guilty, there's generally an absence of it with our disordered ex's.  Why should only one feel guilty while also suffering stress of demands and rages, experiencing consequences of past decisions and inaction, etc?

Well said. It's a matter of undoing years and years of taking on the undue guilt and being emotionally responsible for another adult. In my case, it feels like I am finally growing up emotionally.

[Free One]

It feels so empowering now that I have shifted my thinking to realize that I am doing this because it is what I need to do. Will it hurt ex? Yes, probably. Will it hurt son? Maybe, but I think the lesson of me taking a stand will counteract that (thanks livednlearned for helping me see that). Does it mean it will be easy? No, but it sure feels easier now that it feels RIGHT. 

This is huge!

Standing up to someone who can inflict real consequences on you, potentially harming the person you are hard-wired to protect -- that is not for the faint-hearted. That's serious strength.

You're changing the script! 

Thank you!

[Free One]

Struggling today again with feelings that I am creating unnecessary conflict for son. I KNOW that isn't true and ex's actions need to be addressed because they are damaging to son. On the emotional level there just isn't that connection yet. I still feel torn.

We are waiting for the court to assign a trial date. Ex is supposedly working with his L to remedy the contempt issues, but on the other hand, he is doing more things that are contemptful.

[livednlearned]

Struggling today again with feelings that I am creating unnecessary conflict for son. I KNOW that isn't true and ex's actions need to be addressed because they are damaging to son. On the emotional level there just isn't that connection yet. I still feel torn.

We are waiting for the court to assign a trial date. Ex is supposedly working with his L to remedy the contempt issues, but on the other hand, he is doing more things that are contemptful.

Well, it's true that setting boundaries can cause conflict. That's why lots of us here avoid setting boundaries. But with BPD, the problem is that if we don't set boundaries, they create different kinds of conflict that make it hard for us to do our jobs, which is to protect our kids from BPD behavior.

Not sure that makes sense.

We assert boundaries, there is conflict, but it's for a larger, more significant kind of protection.

We don't assert boundaries, there is conflict, and we are ineffective at providing larger, more significant kinds of protection.

I think that's why the parental alienation stuff is so toxic, why it's worth reading Divorce Poison cover to cover, and using validation strategies to help our kids figure out on their own how to make sense of all this confusion.

Your situation is really, really tough, because your ex is masterful at manipulating your son with things and experiences.

Did something just happen that created more conflict for your son?

[Matt]

Well, it's true that setting boundaries can cause conflict. That's why lots of us here avoid setting boundaries. But with BPD, the problem is that if we don't set boundaries, they create different kinds of conflict that make it hard for us to do our jobs, which is to protect our kids from BPD behavior.

I think we have to ask ourselves, ":)id I create this situation?", and "Am I doing what I believe is right, and doing it for the right motives?"

Remember, it wasn't your choice to be faced with these choices - you're faced with these choices - none of them really good - because of what the other party did.

So if sometimes things get confusing, and you wonder if you made all the right decisions, welcome to the club.  We're handed weird choices and we make the best call we can.  We weren't taught this stuff in school.

[sanemom]

Struggling today again with feelings that I am creating unnecessary conflict for son. I KNOW that isn't true and ex's actions need to be addressed because they are damaging to son. On the emotional level there just isn't that connection yet. I still feel torn.

We are waiting for the court to assign a trial date. Ex is supposedly working with his L to remedy the contempt issues, but on the other hand, he is doing more things that are contemptful.

I think this is big... .we struggle with this, too.  If we set boundaries, DH's BPD ex is masterful at making DH look like the bad guy to the kids.  But if we don't, we set ourselves up for bigger battles later... .

We are facing this struggle right now and are hoping that the professionals will see it as "setting boundaries" rather than being stubborn and not thinking of the kids.  We hate that the kids will have to suffer some, but we would rather it be a little bit rather than a lot.

I hope that you can find your peace in this situation.  It is way more complicated when you add innocent kids into the mix.

[Free One]

Struggling today again with feelings that I am creating unnecessary conflict for son. I KNOW that isn't true and ex's actions need to be addressed because they are damaging to son. On the emotional level there just isn't that connection yet. I still feel torn.

We are waiting for the court to assign a trial date. Ex is supposedly working with his L to remedy the contempt issues, but on the other hand, he is doing more things that are contemptful.

Well, it's true that setting boundaries can cause conflict. That's why lots of us here avoid setting boundaries. But with BPD, the problem is that if we don't set boundaries, they create different kinds of conflict that make it hard for us to do our jobs, which is to protect our kids from BPD behavior.

Not sure that makes sense.

We assert boundaries, there is conflict, but it's for a larger, more significant kind of protection.

We don't assert boundaries, there is conflict, and we are ineffective at providing larger, more significant kinds of protection.

I think that's why the parental alienation stuff is so toxic, why it's worth reading Divorce Poison cover to cover, and using validation strategies to help our kids figure out on their own how to make sense of all this confusion.

Your situation is really, really tough, because your ex is masterful at manipulating your son with things and experiences.

Did something just happen that created more conflict for your son?

livednlearned, you are always so good at asking the right questions. Did something happen that created more conflict for my son? Yes, it did, but not in regards to my case and nothing I did. Just more changes at dad's house, which causes internal conflict and confusion for son. So, in light of your question, I am asking myself why I feel bad about it. It is nothing I caused and in fact, is more reason why I should feel confident in my actions.

It's a matter of I still hear ex's voice in my head telling me I don't have a right to know what's going on or a right to ask for what I need or, quite frankly, a right for anything. I still hear that tape of "you don't deserve... .you aren't good enough... .you are wrong... .". Ugh. I want to click erase and have them all gone. At least identifying this is a start.