"but dad's not mean anymore..."

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I hear this a lot lately from DS6 in an attempt to ask for more time or sleepovers. He told me that he sees other kids at the contact centre where we do a changeover every 2 weeks with pillows, so he thinks that he should be able to as well. He asked me about the contact centre, and why do we use it. I simply told him that dad used to get mad so we use the contact centre so that mum and dad do not have to talk to each other or see each other so that no one is mad. I think he gets it.

DD8 is not as impulsive, and is not asking about it so much. DS6 has a room full of toys and Skylander posters at his dad's, even though they only spend 4 hours every 2nd Sunday with their dad. It's a lot for a little bit of time, and seemingly is to entice the kids to want to be there more.

DS6 opened up to me last night and says he remembers dad being mean to me and hitting me when he was being held - he was almost 2 at the time and I'm not sure how much he remembers, but the memory is certainly there. He brought it up with the T a few years ago and I was surprised that he had even remembered the event.

He says that dad is not mean anymore. I tried to explain that I'm glad that dad is not mean to them. I said that's the right thing and it's not ok for dad to be mean. I had to say that dad and I don't talk or see each other because sometimes dad get's angry and I don't want to be around angry people. I was scrambling for words, but was driving so it was an easy conversation to have with DS6. He told me that he wants to know what dad did, and I told him that when he's older we can talk about things more.

I don't know if we will, but everything is age appropriate. They don't know about the BPD/N pd and they don't know about the extent of the emotional and physical damage and police records etc. If I need to address this one day, it will be slowly and carefully.

I told him that it's my job to love him and keep him safe. He told me "dad loves me too" but he didn't say he keeps him safe.

I told him that the court have asked the kids to live with me until they think it's time for dad to spend more time with them, longer visits and sleepovers are being discussed. But at the moment, things need to stay as they are.

It breaks my heart. BPD/Nxh could have been having them for longer visits since May this year, but he refused the offer and asked for one extra night after 2 years (after a slow build up of time) and this pushed the court case out to November this year. He is being indignant about it and asking for shared parental responsibility now too against the court ordered psychologist and family report recommendations. I have told the kids that the court is deciding, but the truth is that their dad doesn't seem to be able to put the kids first and accept a very generous offer. 

I wonder if he wants to have extra time with the kids at all considering he was happy to keep the status quo.

He bought the kids tickets to One Direction and Taylor Swift, not on his time, on school nights, and without checking with me first, told the kids about the concerts and said it's up to mum if you can go. He keeps telling the kids that mum has to decide if they can go. I feel like I have been painted black and he wants the kids to blame me for missing out. So unfair. I have just told the kids that there are many things to consider and I'll let them know. BPD/Nxh has a chance to stop the court case, accept the offer and take the kids to the concert, as proposed in May this year, but, he's going for gold.

How do you manage kids expectations? How have you balanced their need for contact with parents who are sometimes good? In 4 hours every 2 weeks, they only see the good side, gifts, games, fun etc. I am cautious that longer visits will bring out more of the venom that he has fairly effectively hidden until now. BPD/Nxh has only missed one visit and gotten angry a couple of times. The kids blamed themselves on those occasions. I want them to learn to trust their instinct, but at the moment, it seems DS6 is a bit off. I don't want him to idolize his dad so much and be intent on pleasing him like I was... .

[Forward2free]

I hear this a lot lately from DS6 in an attempt to ask for more time or sleepovers. He told me that he sees other kids at the contact centre where we do a changeover every 2 weeks with pillows, so he thinks that he should be able to as well. He asked me about the contact centre, and why do we use it. I simply told him that dad used to get mad so we use the contact centre so that mum and dad do not have to talk to each other or see each other so that no one is mad. I think he gets it.

DD8 is not as impulsive, and is not asking about it so much. DS6 has a room full of toys and Skylander posters at his dad's, even though they only spend 4 hours every 2nd Sunday with their dad. It's a lot for a little bit of time, and seemingly is to entice the kids to want to be there more.

DS6 opened up to me last night and says he remembers dad being mean to me and hitting me when he was being held - he was almost 2 at the time and I'm not sure how much he remembers, but the memory is certainly there. He brought it up with the T a few years ago and I was surprised that he had even remembered the event.

He says that dad is not mean anymore. I tried to explain that I'm glad that dad is not mean to them. I said that's the right thing and it's not ok for dad to be mean. I had to say that dad and I don't talk or see each other because sometimes dad get's angry and I don't want to be around angry people. I was scrambling for words, but was driving so it was an easy conversation to have with DS6. He told me that he wants to know what dad did, and I told him that when he's older we can talk about things more.

I don't know if we will, but everything is age appropriate. They don't know about the BPD/N pd and they don't know about the extent of the emotional and physical damage and police records etc. If I need to address this one day, it will be slowly and carefully.

I told him that it's my job to love him and keep him safe. He told me "dad loves me too" but he didn't say he keeps him safe.

I told him that the court have asked the kids to live with me until they think it's time for dad to spend more time with them, longer visits and sleepovers are being discussed. But at the moment, things need to stay as they are.

It breaks my heart. BPD/Nxh could have been having them for longer visits since May this year, but he refused the offer and asked for one extra night after 2 years (after a slow build up of time) and this pushed the court case out to November this year. He is being indignant about it and asking for shared parental responsibility now too against the court ordered psychologist and family report recommendations. I have told the kids that the court is deciding, but the truth is that their dad doesn't seem to be able to put the kids first and accept a very generous offer. 

I wonder if he wants to have extra time with the kids at all considering he was happy to keep the status quo.

He bought the kids tickets to One Direction and Taylor Swift, not on his time, on school nights, and without checking with me first, told the kids about the concerts and said it's up to mum if you can go. He keeps telling the kids that mum has to decide if they can go. I feel like I have been painted black and he wants the kids to blame me for missing out. So unfair. I have just told the kids that there are many things to consider and I'll let them know. BPD/Nxh has a chance to stop the court case, accept the offer and take the kids to the concert, as proposed in May this year, but, he's going for gold.

How do you manage kids expectations? How have you balanced their need for contact with parents who are sometimes good? In 4 hours every 2 weeks, they only see the good side, gifts, games, fun etc. I am cautious that longer visits will bring out more of the venom that he has fairly effectively hidden until now. BPD/Nxh has only missed one visit and gotten angry a couple of times. The kids blamed themselves on those occasions. I want them to learn to trust their instinct, but at the moment, it seems DS6 is a bit off. I don't want him to idolize his dad so much and be intent on pleasing him like I was... .

[livednlearned]

I want them to learn to trust their instinct, but at the moment, it seems DS6 is a bit off. I don't want him to idolize his dad so much and be intent on pleasing him like I was... .

I've been re-reading Lundy Bancroft's "When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children Heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse." It's particularly helpful (I think) for moms raising boys who have abusive dads, although it's good for both genders.

What it made me realize is how we (moms) can inadvertently define abuse in narrow ways, when in fact it is the chronic mistreatment that is the problem. When your son tells you his dad isn't mean, what is he saying? That your ex doesn't beat him or yell at him? That means your son needs help understanding how to spot mistreatment.

That doesn't mean you say ":)ad is bad for doing this and that, and using you to get back at me, and taking you to concerts when it's my time." It means that you need to find stories, books, movies, examples where you can get the kids to think critically about whether or not the person is behaving badly. That way, they can identify it more easily in their dad, and it comes from them, not you.

I don't know any books or movies off the top of my head, but there must be ones out there in which a person treats the kids poorly for some hidden goal.

[Matt]

Mine are older - now 15 and 16 - 8 and 10 when we separated.

I think you want to keep it true, and simple, and age-appropriate.  And make sure that what you tell them is for their benefit, and not because it's something you want to say or want them to know.

So for a six-year-old - I think we discussed this on another thread and LnL and I had kind of two different approaches - two sides of the same coin... .

One is to put it onto those in authority:  "There's a doctor that checks out both parents to see how we are doing, and there's a judge who decides what will be best for the kids, and the doctor and judge both decided that it will be best for you to keep spending Saturday afternoon with your dad and the rest of the time here, and that seems to be working pretty well.  If your dad does a good job taking care of you, maybe that will change some day - we'll see."

That has the advantage of keeping you from being blamed - it's somebody else's decision.  But it's also kind of a weak approach - you're not taking responsibility or presenting yourself as a strong role-model.

So another approach is, "I think it's best for you to spend Saturday afternoons with your dad, so he can take good care of you for a little while, and the judge and the doctor we talked to both agreed, so that's how it is.  When you're with him for a few hours at a time, your dad seems to do a pretty good job, right?  But when you were smaller, and we were all together a lot, he had some big problems - he got way too mad and that's not OK.  So we're not going to do it like that again, at least til you're quite a bit older."

Either way, I think it will be best to make it clear that you strongly believe this approach is best, and it's not up to the kids to decide.  If you give them the impression that they get to vote, and then if their dad tries to persuade them too, that will put too much pressure on them;  they need to know that it's not their decision at all, and that what you have decided is what's best for them, and not a matter of your feelings toward their dad.  It's not "Mom vs. Dad", it's what the responsible adults - you and the judge and the doctor - have decided is best for them.

(Having said that, my kids now have a lot of influence - not total control but quite a bit - in these issues.  I always consult them, and sometimes their mom too, and then let them know what the schedule will be, and I almost always agree with what they each think will work best.  But not til they're in their teens.)

[Forward2free]

I want them to learn to trust their instinct, but at the moment, it seems DS6 is a bit off. I don't want him to idolize his dad so much and be intent on pleasing him like I was... .

I've been re-reading Lundy Bancroft's "When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children Heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse." It's particularly helpful (I think) for moms raising boys who have abusive dads, although it's good for both genders.

What it made me realize is how we (moms) can inadvertently define abuse in narrow ways, when in fact it is the chronic mistreatment that is the problem. When your son tells you his dad isn't mean, what is he saying? That your ex doesn't beat him or yell at him? That means your son needs help understanding how to spot mistreatment.

That doesn't mean you say ":)ad is bad for doing this and that, and using you to get back at me, and taking you to concerts when it's my time." It means that you need to find stories, books, movies, examples where you can get the kids to think critically about whether or not the person is behaving badly. That way, they can identify it more easily in their dad, and it comes from them, not you.

I don't know any books or movies off the top of my head, but there must be ones out there in which a person treats the kids poorly for some hidden goal.

This makes a lot of sense, thank you. I didn't want to have to remind him of the times he's been hurt by dad emotionally in the past year, but I did this weekend. He mentioned again that dad isn't mean anymore and I asked him how it made him feel when BPD/Nxh spent over $500 on the Skylanders which are useless without the portal, and then made DS5 (at the time) spend $39 of his own money to buy the portal, and made him feel very guilty for wasting his money. It was awful at the time, and DS6 said it made him feel very sad and angry at dad. I told him that it was not very nice of dad to keep promising the portal and then not buy it etc, and that when dad is mean and it makes him feel that way, it's ok to speak up and have those feelings.

It's going to be a long process, and if BPD/Nxh does start to have more time with the kids, it will come up more too.

[Forward2free]

Either way, I think it will be best to make it clear that you strongly believe this approach is best, and it's not up to the kids to decide.  If you give them the impression that they get to vote, and then if their dad tries to persuade them too, that will put too much pressure on them;  they need to know that it's not their decision at all, and that what you have decided is what's best for them, and not a matter of your feelings toward their dad.  It's not "Mom vs. Dad", it's what the responsible adults - you and the judge and the doctor - have decided is best for them.

I have a mix of both approaches I guess. I have told the kids that I made the decision to not be with dad anymore because he was an angry person and it used to make me feel scared and upset and I took us somewhere safe.

The courts are siding with BPD/Nxh that he should have more time with the kids, and unfortunately don't see BPD or NPD as good reasons to restrict access with parents. They are advocating for overnights soon and more time, but BPD/Nxh is nitpicking over slight changes and delaying the process. He is trying to make the kids think that I am preventing access.

Anyway, I have told them that the courts will decide when the time is right and that I am supportive of their dad having a good relationship with them, but I am here to protect them and make sure dad isn't getting mad and if things change, I will step up again.

It's probably normal, but when I say no to constant whining that they want toys when shopping for example, DS6 says he wants to live with dad because he'd buy it for him. He also told my friends yesterday that his dad is awesome because he buys him whatever he wants and then reeled off his top 20 gifts. Crazy annoying, but nothing I can do or say about that.

When it becomes more that 4 hours every second Sunday, things are bound to change... .

[rogerroger]

I've had nearly identical experiences recently. Last night DS6 asked why they couldn't have sleepovers at Mommy's saying "She hasn't said any bad things for a long time!"

I said "That's good that Mommy has been behaving properly. If she can keep behaving properly, maybe after a while the judge will let her keep you guys for a sleepover."

It's hard to be in this kind of situation, isn't it? I can't help (even now) sympathizing with her. I know she would absolutely love to be able to keep them for sleepovers. But I have to remind myself that the courts, on the recommendation of a professional team of psychological evaluators, have set the parameters of the visitation plan. Even though I don't think she would do them direct physical harm, I can have no confidence at all that she won't revert to trying to poison them against me and my family. In fact, I suspect strongly that the more power she feels she has regarding the kids, the more likely she would be to try to use that power in ways that would be self-serving for her, and detrimental to the kids.

[Matt]

So... .flash forward a few years... .and assume that somehow you figure out how to help the kids as they continue to see their dad regularly... .

My D16 has been dealing with a BPD mom her whole life, and she's very good at dealing with her,  usually.  Once in a while her mom really gets under her skin - her mom is very passive-aggressive so D16 doesn't always see what's happening - but most of the time D16 does fine - good grades, lots of friends, physically fit, happy.

Last week she had an assignment to make a poster for Spanish class, saying "I am... ." - "Yo soy amiga" with a picture of D16 with her friends, "Yo soy hermana" with a picture of D16 with her brother, etc.

The one that said "I am a daughter" (I can't remember the Spanish for "daughter" showed a picture of me.  No picture of mom, although we have lots of them.

I almost spoke up - it could have been changed - but then I decided not to - at 16, she can make her own choices.  If her mom sees the poster, she will have a fit, but I think D16 will handle it OK.

Not how things should be of course, but what I'm seeing is that what my older son said many years ago - "One by one we're all going to give up on her and she's going to be all alone" - is probably kind of correct.  My job isn't to prevent that, it's to support the kids as they figure out what relationship is possible with their mom - what will work for each of them.

[Forward2free]

It's hard to be in this kind of situation, isn't it? I can't help (even now) sympathizing with her. I know she would absolutely love to be able to keep them for sleepovers. But I have to remind myself that the courts, on the recommendation of a professional team of psychological evaluators, have set the parameters of the visitation plan. Even though I don't think she would do them direct physical harm, I can have no confidence at all that she won't revert to trying to poison them against me and my family. In fact, I suspect strongly that the more power she feels she has regarding the kids, the more likely she would be to try to use that power in ways that would be self-serving for her, and detrimental to the kids.

I know what you mean - it's very difficult to imagine a time where I have no concerns over BPD/Nxh spending time with the children, if ever. I keep waiting for them to have walking rights which the psychologists tell me is when they are aged approx 14+ and then the kids will decide what they do and when.

I worry that they don't see the bad stuff yet, they have been adequately protected to date and so I don't know how to prepare them for the reality of dad's moods and personality swings and anger etc etc etc. Nothing can prepare them I guess. Not even me, as an adult, was ready to acknowledge and deal with them and I am so fearful that they will become too obliging and too forgiving and end up like me... .

[Forward2free]

So... .flash forward a few years... .and assume that somehow you figure out how to help the kids as they continue to see their dad regularly... .

My D16 has been dealing with a BPD mom her whole life, and she's very good at dealing with her,  usually.  Once in a while her mom really gets under her skin - her mom is very passive-aggressive so D16 doesn't always see what's happening - but most of the time D16 does fine - good grades, lots of friends, physically fit, happy.

Last week she had an assignment to make a poster for Spanish class, saying "I am... ." - "Yo soy amiga" with a picture of D16 with her friends, "Yo soy hermana" with a picture of D16 with her brother, etc.

The one that said "I am a daughter" (I can't remember the Spanish for "daughter" showed a picture of me.  No picture of mom, although we have lots of them.

I almost spoke up - it could have been changed - but then I decided not to - at 16, she can make her own choices.  If her mom sees the poster, she will have a fit, but I think D16 will handle it OK.

Not how things should be of course, but what I'm seeing is that what my older son said many years ago - "One by one we're all going to give up on her and she's going to be all alone" - is probably kind of correct.  My job isn't to prevent that, it's to support the kids as they figure out what relationship is possible with their mom - what will work for each of them.

This reminds me of a picture DS6 drew at school last year aged 5. It was a picture of our family. You could see his sister and me in the house with him with my arms around them and I asked what was on the roof. He told me it was daddy and he was trying to get into the house. Scary.

I know you're right and that eventually the kids will decide for themselves as your D16 has. Only 8 more years to go for me until my daughter is the same age and 10 years for son. Sigh. It's hard work.

All I know is that I am doing my very best to show them normal, and I need to trust that anything outside of that will ring alarm bells and they can question the action/words and hopefully talk with me about it. Such a small time to influence a child's entire life  :'(