SET seen as patronizing?

[CS4Ever]

I have a rather interesting dilemma and I was wondering if anyone else had run into this. I've been making a real effort not to argue facts with my uBPDw and am instead focusing on SET and trying to validate her feelings as much as possible while still maintaining some healthy boundaries.

(this sounds like a self help book which is ironic given what is to come... .   )

Anyway, she started to disregulate after I told her that I couldn't schedule a business trip on the exact days she wanted. I told her that I was sorry she felt that way, at which point she stopped me accused me of being patronizing. Said that I'd obviously read some "self help book" and that I was talking to her exactly the way she'd talked to her abusive ex-SO from before we were married.

I responded by saying that I was trying to change the way I communicated with her as our prior habits were clearly not working and that I had no desire to come off as patronizing, etc... .

Has anyone else had to deal with their BPD partner seeing SET and other communication methods as patronizing? Any advice on how to deal with that?

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[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi CS4Ever

Sure! I've experienced it, as has many others here. Just keep working on it, try different ways of validating and you'll land on something that suits her. It's a bit trail and error at first. Not all validation suggestions work for all people with BPD. For my dBPDbf, I've come to learn it's best to validate with "agreeing sounds" like, "oh, ok" "that's for sure" "of course" "mmmm" etc and asking questions.

You'll get there! Just keep trying. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes not, but it's still better than not trying at all!

[eeyore]

For my dBPDbf, I've come to learn it's best to validate with "agreeing sounds" like, "oh, ok" "that's for sure" "of course" "mmmm" etc and asking questions.

what works for Scarlet Phoenix doesn't work for me.  If I say ok, sure, or of course, he takes it to mean I agree with what he is saying.  For us validating means I heard and understood him not that I agree.  Afterall sometimes the words coming out of his mouth are delusional.   I found it better to say, I am listening, or I hear what you are saying.  Sometimes I just say " understood " as he goes along.

[SunflowerFields]

I told her that I was sorry she felt that way, at which point she stopped me accused me of being patronizing.

Telling someone "I'm sorry you feel that way" is not really S or E.

(How would you feel if you told someone you felt upset, and they responded, "I'm sorry you feel upset"? Would that make you feel better? Understood?  )

Better way:

S: "You sound upset that I am unable to schedule business trip on x date" (Doesn't she sound upset?)

E: "I get that. If the tables were turned, I would feel upset, too. " (Wouldn't you?)

T: "I can only travel on X date. It sucks, I know. How about we do something fun on X date + 2?"

Takes practice. More importantly, takes REAL listening and empathy.

[CS4Ever]

This is all good feedback.

I think SunflowerFields is right that I'm not really doing SET (for some reason the whole, this word you are saying it does not mean what you think line from the princess bride just popped into my head... .  )

I like the example of what to say that was given for the trip situation. But what if its something that is either irrational or otherwise unreasonable. It seems like it would be damaging to do the E part in those situations. Is this where you use the "it must be really painful to feel that way" sort of line? Validate the feeling and how bad it must be for them without agreeing with the underlying issue?

I do think there are some issues with my tone/approach to the whole situation as well. I am really trying not to engage or otherwise become too upset/emotionally engaged myself. This comes out as a fairly neutral tone of voice that I'm not really sure how to fix. Its all I can do to be detached and neutral in the first place. There's not much left over for managing my tone... .though hopefully it will get easier with time.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

though hopefully it will get easier with time.

It will. The more you do it, the more natural it becomes and thus easier

[SunflowerFields]

But what if its something that is either irrational or otherwise unreasonable.

S: "You sound upset that I can't fly you to the moon tomorrow". (isn't she sounding upset?)

E: "I get that feels bad and not nice." (don't you get that she feels bad and not nice?)

T: "I wish I could fly you to the moon. Wanna go to the movies on Saturday instead?"

It seems like it would be damaging to do the E part in those situations.

E is about "empathy". Empathy = relating to the others' feelings.

Not about agreeing with them. (Otherwise, it would have been an "A"  )

Takes time to learn the difference.

[briefcase]

Communicating this way often doesn't come naturally - it didn't for me anyway.  With practice it does get easier and sounds more natural.  Our partners also get used to hearing it and it feels less "strange" to them over time. 

As others have said, I'm not a fan of the "I'm sorry you feel . . ." style of validation.  It can be mistaken for a half-baked apology (which isn't the intent) and can come off as insincere sounding.  Keep practicing! 

[CS4Ever]

I've switched to some version of "it must be terrible to feel that way" followed or sometimes proceeded by some statement that makes it clear that I understand why she feels that way and/or its understandable for her to feel that way. But things are so far gone that pretty much anything I say is seen as an attack.

She's started mirroring the SET language back at me each time we talk. I don't raise to the bait and just try to stay the course but its pretty hard to keep trying when she's injecting sarcasm and derision into the conversation like that.

She asked me to move out so I saw a lawyer yesterday- something I told her about ahead of time, stressing that it was a reasonable response to the request and that I wasn't simply going to move out of our house without consulting with someone first. She sees this as a huge escalation and of course everything is once again my fault.

Just feels like there's no getting through to her at this point. Anything I do or say is being twisted around to justify ending things- with her as the victim and me as the bad guy. 

Very hard to old any hope or put any effort into trying to fix things at this point. Hopefully I'll be in a better place myself where I can put some effort into it in a few days.

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

What can you do when you say:

S:  "You sound upset that I can't fly you to the moon tomorrow"

E:  "I get that feels bad and not nice."

... .and they angrily respond "I'm not upset.  :)on't tell me how I feel?"  

This has happened to me on several occasions.  In my situation, this often causes the raging to get worse.  How can I defuse when this occurs?

[eeyore]

What can you do when you say:

S:  "You sound upset that I can't fly you to the moon tomorrow"

E:  "I get that feels bad and not nice."

... .and they angrily respond "I'm not upset.  :)on't tell me how I feel?"  

This has happened to me on several occasions.  In my situation, this often causes the raging to get worse.  How can I defuse when this occurs?

That's when you take a time out and let the situation calm down until both people can talk.  If someone is off the charts and you have tried to validate and get this kind of response then it's time to let them know it's an important issue and subject that requires people to talk about calmly.  You'll do _____for a bit.  You'll be back from hit_ at hit__ time and see if it's something that can be discussed.  If not  another time out until both are capable of talking. 

You can't talk to someone that's not capable of talking. 

[briefcase]

Yeah, it happens.  It can be easy to miss the difference between "You sound upset" and "You feel upset."  It happens.

You can ask a validating question to emphasize that you are only sharing your perspective - You sound upset.  Is something wrong? instead of "You sound upset.  I get it.

In the validation workshop, there is a link to video presentation by Dr. Fruzzetti, he shares some great ways to state your validation to suit the occassion. It's worth the time to watch.

And when things start getting too hostile, it may be time to simply take a break from the conversation and take a walk or something.  Let things settle down.