What does being the "emotional leader" look like?

[connect]

Hi Guys,

There is a lot of talk on here about us being the "emotional leader" in the relationship with our partners with BPD.

My r/s has improved in many ways and he has been in therapy (horray!) for three weeks now. However, I STILL feel as though HE is the leader in the r/s. I do stay calm, use the tools, validate, don't engage so much, look after myself more (got a shiny new job and will be back in my old house within the month) but the r/s still seems to be dictated by him and the BPD traits... .it's a feeling... .

For example:

* His moods seems to dominate the room when we are together - ie,  he is sad and wants to talk - we spend the whole night talking about his feelings. He rages - the next few days are spent recovering from this (him and me) He is happy - we have a great evening.

* We tend to see each other on his timetable due to his up and down moods ie some nights he needs to be alone to "process" things. We do spend most nights together though

* When we are together we seem to do what he wants to do

* He seems completely unable to plan anything with me. He can make plans with his friends occasionally (he still stresses over this) So his friends get the fireworks evenings and camping trips whilst we dont plan anything as a couple. When we have his child we do more together but even then its centrered around his ideas and his mum/friends plans

* He has only met two of my friends and doesnt seem to want to meet any more of my friends (he says he is scared he will say the wrong thing) and he makes excuses when I try to arrange things even a quick cup of tea with them

It's helped writing this stuff down. It looks a bit eggshelly on my part come to think of it  

So the interactions between me and him have got better and I am protecting myself more. I soon start a better job (which he is not keen on due to the sector) as I realise that I need to be able to look after myself independantly of him and I am moving out from a friends back into my old house as I will now be able to afford to live there alone.

Looking at this list and my language perhaps I have actually become better at heading towards being the emotional leader - maybe the points I have raised here are about steering the everyday r/s rather than anything else? In anycase it still feels as though he is in charge of the course of the r/s and I seem to be a bit stuck as to a way to change that aspect.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[123Phoebe]

Hi Connect,

Here's a great link of how to 'stay on the path' posted by UfN.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128184.0

Hope it helps to answer some of your questions and concerns

[waverider]

To lead is not necessarily to dominate. It is to knowingly steer. The results of this steering is variable depending on factors out of your control.

A pwBPD may dominate by sheer force of presence, but that dominance is not necessarily steering, hence not real leadership, it is more like a force of nature.

Steering involves direction and balanced purpose. Not the inevitable consequence of overwhelming impulses.

Think of attempting to steer a small boat through a storm. It is not always possible to make headway.

[connect]

Thanks Pheobe and Waverider :-)

The link on staying on the path is really good - I liked it.

Waverider - what you said rings true. My bf does feel like he is dominating the r/s rather than leading. I have been keeping things more stable on the emotional/connection side of things and looking after my own 50% better and trying to leave his 50% alone a bit more.

As the person better equiped (as a non) to be the emotional leader I would like to introduce some new elements to our r/s. I would like us to hang out with my friends sometimes, make plans together (afternoons out in the countryside etc) and have more of a voice in the day to day side of the r/s not just the emotional side. I feel that this would also be healthy steering and we havent even tried things with my input.

Maybe this is a DEARMAN conversation? I have spoken about this before but although he agrees he should meet my friends / take me out more it doesnt happen. So it carries on his way (lots of nights in watching tv/computer games/him drinking) What to do? He just doesnt seem to WANT to do things like that with me although he will make the effort to do them with his friends sometimes so I know he is capable. Stressy for him then though as he has to put his bouncy public mask on which tires him out.

The way the r/s is I am not really being seen for myself as my world is rather absent from things. Have been riding the storm with the emotional side and have realised that things have slipped into an insuler r/s. I am not being purely selfish here - it would be good if we could have a more even input on what we do. I am kind of amazed at how things are so often on his terms when I am the person in the r/s who is the more stable one?

It's hard to set a boundary on this ie "If you wont go for a walk in the countryside then I will go alone" because the whole point is that I want to do these things with him. I dont know how to get him from "Yes we should do those things i agree" to him actually doing them and without being triggered.

It hurts when I tie myself up in knots gauging when is the best time to bring up a potential plan (sometimes the mere mention of a plan from me will trigger him) and in the meantime he will accept plans from other people no problem.  

[MaybeSo]

I don't know how to get people to do things they don't want to do, either.

If you keep enjoying doing what you want to do either alone or with others, he may eventually want to join in on the fun.

When further along in T perhaps he will see the benefit of increasing some of these activities with you and have better tools for coping with whatever fatigue or anxiety comes up.

But he may not, too.

even In regular relationships sometimes we are never really on the same page about these things and both people have to decide if on balance the r/s works well enough to continue. Introverts and extroverts for example, often have to deal with differences in time or quality of social activities cause they are each quite different in their need.

[waverider]

Ultimately you can lead but you can't make people follow. pwBPD are not good followers, that requires structure, self discipline and empathy towards the needs of others. These are not their strong points.

Meeting their immediate needs and impulses is paramount, they will move mountains to do this. If there is no need or impulse to drive actions they will  often do nothing, this is definitely the case with my partner and the major reason she is low functioning.

So continue to lead, it gives you centering, even if no one follows it will reduce the chances of you heading in the wrong direction

[123Phoebe]

It's hard to set a boundary on this ie "If you wont go for a walk in the countryside then I will go alone" because the whole point is that I want to do these things with him. I dont know how to get him from "Yes we should do those things i agree" to him actually doing them and without being triggered.

Forget about him being triggered.  This isn't something that really needs to be said to him.  If it's something you truly like doing, then do it   Bring your camera along, or a guide to birding/wildflowers/mammals/binoculars/a telescope/whatever floats your boat

Get out there and truly live the life you want to! 

I hate to keep saying, "I've found that... blah blah blah... .", but it's the truth!  When I started living my life according to my values and interests, he started to believe in the possibilities and that they're endless.  Not only do we take walks now, we plan weekends around them, going to certain places where certain things will be in bloom, migrating, meteors shooting through the sky etc... .  We're nature freaks

Asking him to do something and then being bummed if he says no, doesn't work for me.  He can say 'no' until the cows come home.  If it's something I really want to do, I'm going to do it and he knows it... .now.  It took being willing to do a few things solo to turn him around.  He has learned by my actions that I mean what I say and that I can have great fun with or without him.  I don't guilt or shame him for lack of interest.  I don't expect him to be interested in everything that I am.  And I'm not interested in everything that he is, either.  It's fine!

It starts with baby steps on our part.

If you'd like to go for a walk in the countryside, Connect, by all means, do it!  Maybe pack a picnic basket.

But don't punish yourself by not enjoying yourself, 'cuz he's not with you (or on the same page) at that particular moment.

Lead and most likely he will follow... .

Be true to you!  That is the 'secret'

[waverider]

In short someone has to go first and set a new life style as a standard. He is more likely to follow on afterwards if he see's you enjoying yourself first.

No guarantees, but it is the best option, and you don't waste your own life in the process of waiting around.

Hanging around waiting for procrastinating to finish is the big issue for me at the moment that I am trying to modify. How many times have I waited around, done nothing waiting for a promise to be followed through on, and then I have said "I should have known better"... Then do it again. It is very difficult to change your attitude as you keep getting sucked in... Meanwhile life ticks away.

Don't let your life tick away waiting, it's yours to own

[Scarlet Phoenix]

So many great things said already 

For me, being an emotional leader also means being stable and calm, not jumping on the dysregulation train when it passes. This is where mindfulness comes in.

[connect]

Wow - what great posts! Thanks guys! 

I just love these boards - honestly, if this place didnt exist then I doubt I would have got through the last 6 months and looked at my own behaviours so much too.

Seeing all the posts from you guys has made me start to re-think how I have been approaching this. Knowing that you have all had success (or improvement) with this approach too really helps. Of course you are all right in that if I want to do this stuff I should just do it anyway. For the last 20 years I have been taking walks in the countryside, photographing nature and watching wildlife all with previous partners and sometimes with friends. What you said Waverider about not letting your life tick away is very valid. And Phoebe, to know that you partner DID eventually start joining you is good encouragment. And I know Maybeso that your ex also responded well when you took charge of your own life more.

So that's it - that's what I will start doing I think. Will start slowly - an hours walk etc - take some photos to show him - come back with some stories. Might pique his interest and will get me in tune with myself again - something I desperately need to do as I have spent too long pushing my own needs to one side. So I need to shift my attitude a bit too - from "I want to do these things with my bf" to "I would like to do them with my bf but I will do them alone/with friends even if he doesn't" Win win I hope, esp from what you guys have told me.

In a way I wasnt sure if this stuff counted as being an emotional leader (I associated THAT with the tools, calmness, not being sucked in etc as Scarlet Phoenix said) but I can see that there is a link with me being true to myself and my interests and being an emotional leader via this route too. Me standing on my own two feet more, less bowing to his needs and taking some of mine back. Will really try this. Baby steps I think - its wierd how all this stuff I used to do seems almost foriegn to me now and I see it as cloaked in triggers instead of just stuff I like? How did that happen in the space of a year and a half? I'd be a stepford wife if I carried on like that.

I have a night away with my friends this weekend and I havent mentioned it yet as I was waiting for a good time to tell him (I say that phrase too much  ). This sort of behaviour from me shows how things have deteriorated in my own mind. In the old days - I would have told my previous bf without a care in the world - no problem and it wouldnt have BEEN a problem- but with my pwBPD it makes me jumpy. Not a good place to be at - I don't want to be that person. So I have to work on changing it back.

On another note his therapy seems to have been going ok - it's cbt. I didnt call the T and tell him I suspect BPD as you guys thought it would be a bad move and I havent delved about asking too much about the sessions. As it happens his T has spotted some things already that are challenging my bf. He has suggested to my bf that his perception of reality may not always be in line with other peoples so it would seem that the T isnt falling for the victim stories as I worried he would. He is also attempting to steer my bf towards grey rather than black and white. My bf has been trying to use the excercises on situations that upset him with varied results - early stages.

[connect]

Phoebe I would like to ask you a question about what you said:

I hate to keep saying, "I've found that... blah blah blah... .", but it's the truth!  When I started living my life according to my values and interests, he started to believe in the possibilities and that they're endless.  Not only do we take walks now, we plan weekends around them, going to certain places where certain things will be in bloom, migrating, meteors shooting through the sky etc... . We're nature freaks

I am glad you say things like "I found that... blah... blah... ."!   So, how was your r/s BEFORE you started living your life according to your values? Were you fitting in round him? Not bringing up your needs? What did it look like before? And how did you start taking baby steps to get yourself back on track (which then caused him to start to join in) Did you do it gradually? Or wake up one day and say "enough of this,  I am going to be me again"? How long did it take?

I am pleased that you are doing all those things - sounds great 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

On another note his therapy seems to have been going ok - it's cbt. I didnt call the T and tell him I suspect BPD as you guys thought it would be a bad move and I havent delved about asking too much about the sessions. As it happens his T has spotted some things already that are challenging my bf. He has suggested to my bf that his perception of reality may not always be in line with other peoples so it would seem that the T isnt falling for the victim stories as I worried he would. He is also attempting to steer my bf towards grey rather than black and white. My bf has been trying to use the excercises on situations that upset him with varied results - early stages.

Good news! Baby-steps

[waverider]

Sounds like a good plan, you have to learn to lead yourself before you can lead for anyone else.

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe I would like to ask you a question about what you said:

I hate to keep saying, "I've found that... blah blah blah... .", but it's the truth!  When I started living my life according to my values and interests, he started to believe in the possibilities and that they're endless.  Not only do we take walks now, we plan weekends around them, going to certain places where certain things will be in bloom, migrating, meteors shooting through the sky etc... . We're nature freaks

I am glad you say things like "I found that... blah... blah... ."!   So, how was your r/s BEFORE you started living your life according to your values? Were you fitting in round him? Not bringing up your needs? What did it look like before? And how did you start taking baby steps to get yourself back on track (which then caused him to start to join in) Did you do it gradually? Or wake up one day and say "enough of this,  I am going to be me again"? How long did it take?

I am pleased that you are doing all those things - sounds great  

Our relationship was a resentful quagmire.  A controlling-stand off.  I was waiting around for him to give 'us' the go ahead.  My approach was blame-based and I didn't even know it.  I knew his reactions to me were over the top odd, but I wasn't aware enough while in the thick of it to really look at myself or how I was coming off to illicit such responses from him.

I got sick of being told 'no', or given a look of 'how preposterous'!  So it kinda got to the point of 'F you', in my mind.  Why am I even in this relationship?

It got really uncomfortable and I had enough self-shame and blame (and care and interest in him) to wonder if maybe, just maybe I could be contributing to this weirdness?

My intentions were good, my delivery was disastrous!

Enter baby steps... .

What are my intentions exactly?  Are they to 'get him to do something'?  Why?  Why do I need him to do something?  I don't!  I can do it on my own, or with someone else... .

So, the approach of not 'needing' him, worked in my favor.  My approach became more of, 'I'd really enjoy blah blah blah, does it interest you?  No?  Okay.'  And I'd do it anyway.  No more waiting around for him to give me the go ahead on how to conduct my life.  It's not his place, it's my own.

Like I said, my intentions were good; they were pure.  I wasn't asking for the moon (I didn't think... .).  But what I didn't realize was that I was inadvertently asking him for permission to be myself   That's pretty HUGE!

When I started to walk my talk, enjoying every step of the way... . He started to believe me because I believed in myself   And it's just grown from there... .

I can't really give you a timeline. It was pretty quick though once my perspective changed.  There was a definite shift inside of me that occurred.

Hope this helps

[waverider]

 There was a definite shift inside of me that occurred.

I experienced this too, and it wasn't dependent on my partner suddenly being "fixed', she isn't. But the extremes just don't seem to be there anymore

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Like I said, my intentions were good; they were pure.  I wasn't asking for the moon (I didn't think... .).  But what I didn't realize was that I was inadvertently asking him for permission to be myself   That's pretty HUGE!

How I recognise myself in that! It took some conscious work, but as both Pheobe123 and Waverider I've too felt this shift of letting myself be me, and feeling free to be me, regardless of my partner, no longer trying to adapt my authentic me to him. It required a hard look at myself where I had to realize that it was co-dependent issue for me.

[waverider]

Removing yourself from this enmeshment, or living in their shadows, enables you to look at them with more affection and acceptance, as resentment levels lower and your own life becomes more rewarding as a consequence.

[Grey Kitty]

  There was a definite shift inside of me that occurred.

Yup, me three! There was a point of understanding my reality and my limits and the boundary between us.

Connect, I've got a suggestion for you... .you started this thread talking about where you would like to lead this r/s you are in, and the sort of things you would like to do... .and about tools like DEARMAN to try to negotiate a change.

I think Phoebe's approach is much better. Do it one day at a time, one walk in the countryside at a time. Do things yourself and invite him to join you.

Sometimes being a leader is making a big change... .without calling it that, just shifting one thing a at a time. You know where you want to be going, but you don't choose to discuss that. Nothing that you want is bad for anybody, and it is all good for you if you do it... .with or without him!

 GK

[123Phoebe]

Removing yourself from this enmeshment, or living in their shadows, enables you to look at them with more affection and acceptance, as resentment levels lower and your own life becomes more rewarding as a consequence.

Removing myself from enmeshment was key!  Detaching with love.

I think 'detachment' can be misinterpreted here on the Staying Board.  It doesn't mean detaching from our partners for lack of caring or warm feelings.  For me, it was detaching from the unhealthy dynamic that I played a big part in.  We are not each other's keepers.  We are not 'one'.  We are individuals with a whole lot to offer not only each other, but other's as well.  And more importantly, ourselves.

I really 'needed' to detach from him and attach to myself. 

It was scary!  I felt or thought that if I detached from him, I'd lose him.  I had learned that in my FOO.  And on the flipside, when he'd step out on his own, I'd freak out about that too!  He must not care about me, if he wants to do things with other people.  And my mind would conjure up all kinds of icky scenarios of what must be going on with him.

I realized how twisted that line of thinking was, as it sure wasn't helping.

Unenmeshing (detaching), has let me see him and appreciate him and respect him and accept him as an individual, as the really wonderful person that he is   My feelings for him have GROWN as a result.

Baby steps, Connect.  It all starts with us and looking within.

[Grey Kitty]

Removing myself from enmeshment was key!  Detaching with love.

I think 'detachment' can be misinterpreted here on the Staying Board.  It doesn't mean detaching from our partners for lack of caring or warm feelings.  For me, it was detaching from the unhealthy dynamic that I played a big part in.

Right on, Phoebe!, I took this sort of path myself. I was in a difficult place, and went on a long silent meditation retreat, which did me a great deal of good. I remember coming out with some real clarity--I really knew and believed these two things:

1. I loved my wife dearly, and always would. (This was the first thing I said to her!)

2. This wouldn't keep me with my wife if our r/s destroying me. I could still take it, but I saw it was costing me, and I knew that I would leave rather than lose myself. (I didn't say anything about this part)

Knowing I would survive if our r/s ended gave me the strength to do things right with her, even in the face of all the unreasonable demands we all know too well around here.

I got another expression of gratitude from my wife last night for the times I just left her to deal with her own crap instead of letting her dump it on me. She had to deal with tough stuff, but was glad now that she had made it through. (My transition was over a year ago. Her big turning point about a year ago.)

[connect]

This is soo helpful  

I want to write a big reply but am just off for an overnight trip with my friends so will try to get online later. So much of what you guys said just jumps out at me!

Phoebe - what you said:

I was waiting around for him to give 'us' the go ahead.  My approach was blame-based and I didn't even know it

But what I didn't realize was that I was inadvertently asking him for permission to be myself huh  That's pretty HUGE!

Yes, yes and yes! Once my bf said to me that I had made him the centre of my universe and it was too much pressure. At the time I couldn't understand what he meant and was upset as I thought that was what you were MEANT to do in a r/s. I took his comment hard as a rejection of my love for him. Now I am starting to see (in light of what you said Phoebe) that he did have a point and my 50% needs some work here... .

Also this:

It was scary!  I felt or thought that if I detached from him, I'd lose him.  I had learned that in my FOO.  And on the flipside, when he'd step out on his own, I'd freak out about that too!  He must not care about me, if he wants to do things with other people.  And my mind would conjure up all kinds of icky scenarios of what must be going on with him.

mmm... .yes again! I'm glad you admitted to how scary that was - I think the same. I am even questioning the timing of this post. Me talking about his lack of plans with me just before I go away for a night with my friends? mmm... hello projection and guilt! From me  . Actually I AM finding this scary - me going away for a night on a weekend that he is child free and has other options to go out (when I said I was away he told me he may go to a party). A weekend where I would normally be with him.  A conscious healthy one though. Quite a step for me to arrange this - weird as I have never been like this with other bf's. But I am determined to get some of my life back - so its not all about navigating BPD.

Unenmeshing (detaching), has let me see him and appreciate him and respect him and accept him as an individual, as the really wonderful person that he is love  My feelings for him have GROWN as a result.

THIS is where I want to be ^^^^^^^

This weekend I am still conscious that I would rather be with him then seeing my friends (!) but I really need to change my behaviours to detach with love to become unmeshed - feels pretty uncomfortable atm !

Anyway this thread wasn't meant to be about me going away this weekend... .but me doing it is in a way me trying to find my feet again. Trying to get back to me. Doing something a bit different in the r/s. I suppose it helps me to be the emotional leader a bit more. I can feel my "control" impulses coming out - needing to be around him to "control" what he's doing. At least I am getting aware of it.

I think I have been waiting around for him to give us "permission" too. I don't know exactly how that is linked to being the emotional leader - I suppose its reactive and not really leading on my part.

Forgive this being a bit jumbled - its very early here! Am focussing on this weekend too much I think rather than what I originally posted about!



ps as an aside I watched "Silver lining Playbook" yesterday. The guy in it is bi-polar and when he has an "episode" the actor really captured the expression I have seen in a BPD rage. Check it out!

[123Phoebe]

Anyway this thread wasn't meant to be about me going away this weekend... .but me doing it is in a way me trying to find my feet again. Trying to get back to me. Doing something a bit different in the r/s. I suppose it helps me to be the emotional leader a bit more. I can feel my "control" impulses coming out - needing to be around him to "control" what he's doing. At least I am getting aware of it.

"Getting back to you" sounds great!  The reason I crossed out that other part is because sometimes even when we're finding ourselves, we're tying it to our partners.  We end up NOT doing it for ourselves, our hearts aren't in it, because we're doing it with an expectation attached to someone else-- I do this, he'll do that.  The 'relationship' doesn't define who we are;  'I define me'!

It all plays into the 'shift' within ourselves.  The way we carry ourselves.  The words we naturally begin to use that define who we are at our core.  Accepting ourselves wholeheartedly, even our faults. 

He'll still give me a look of 'how preposterous!', from time to time and I'll give it right back.  Or I'll tell him he is absolutely hilarious and LET IT GO.  I am not afraid to lose him.  I don't want to lose him, I definitely want him in my life, but my behaviors aren't geared around that anymore... .  The 'fear' of losing him.  Where I cling and act all crazy and weirded out.  Over what?  A difference of opinion? 

We have to know our own boundaries.  And even if they're crossed, "it" doesn't 'make me' act all crazy and weirded out.  I make myself act crazy.  I can choose to not act crazy.  I am not 'crazy' at my core.  I'm pretty level-headed, therefore my behaviors indicate that fact.  But even still, sometimes I act a little bit crazy and I own it.  I realize it's me.

I can sometimes feel it coming on (my own craziness), so I take a step back and 'choose' not to see him because I'm edgy for whatever reason-- work stress, tired, pms'ing, things piling up, etc... .  So, I take care of my side of the street.  Take care of myself.  Knowing this about myself has given me a better perspective of what's going on with him when he 'chooses' not to spend time with me = he's regrouping!  It's human to need to regroup, reenergize.

If I tell him I'm feeling stressed about things piling up, you know what?  He'll offer to help; he's a sweetie!  I appreciate his help.  There are times though that I just need to be by myself, and it has nothing to do with him or us.  The same goes for him.

I think I'm beginning to babble and ramble... .  My point (I suppose), is that not everything about our existence is tied to our partners, even though I used to want to make it so--  I'm in a bad mood?  I'll attach it to him.  I want to go to the museum when he doesn't... .his fault!  He doesn't want to see me?  He must be screwing someone at work.

What a weird and paranoid reality I used to live in.  Blah, no wonder we had so many issues   Why would I 'stay' with someone who I really thought would be doing all those things, making my life miserable?  I wouldn't!  He was not making my life miserable.  I was.

That's not to say he doesn't do things that piss me off, he does.  My reactions to them aren't do or die, black or white anymore though.  They're just things and we deal with them.  No big deal.

So, how was your weekend with your friends?  Did you enjoy yourself?  Hope so!   

[connect]

Phoebe you talk a lot of sense  

The weekend was good thanks. Nice to see my friends. Very low key - nice hotel, dinner then back to the room to talk - lots of catching up. I did enjoy it  

How you describe this... .

My point (I suppose), is that not everything about our existence is tied to our partners, even though I used to want to make it so--  I'm in a bad mood?  I'll attach it to him.  I want to go to the museum when he doesn't... .his fault!  He doesn't want to see me?  He must be screwing someone at work.

... .is unfortunately how I am feeling right now. Not so good! I am linking a lot of stuff to him as when I was away he only answered one of my two texts (not giving anything away his end) and ignored the one I sent 10pm Sat night. So immediately in my mind I went to "Well he must be out at the party chatting up women" I just hate how I keep going back to this place... .  I have been used to much better relaxed contact with previous bf's where you each know what the other is doing and a phone call/text doesnt have so much riding on it like "well I've told him what i'm doing but he has not told me what he's doing etc and I think THAT'S deliberate to either keep me guessing or because he is doing something I wouldn't like".

I am seeing him in an hour and have a horrible churning stomach as I am quite frankly worried that he will tell me he went to a wild party or did something that I will feel uncomfortable with. Oh dear. This is a feeling I have quite often when we havent seen each other for a few days and have had limited/no contact. I don't seem to be able to relax until I know what happened his end. And quite often his end has involved the plans/socialising with others that doesn't happen with us.

It feels like a step back in my thinking. It makes me wonder if I will ever get better at this? Makes me wonder if I am CAPABLE of being the emotional leader at all! I don't think this is all me though as the friends I was with had constant contact with their partners (as I used to have). I wonder if I do actually need better communication in a r/s? Or am I being all co-dependant? Need more radical acceptance that he doesnt do this? Arghhh!

Maybe I am just being a bit disregulated all on my own here atm. Nervous. I could feel myself getting more wound up the nearer I was to getting back home. This is all mixed up in my head with being the emotional leader, co-dependancy, valid points on communication in my opinion, trust issues, me doing something separate from him and him being able to make plans with others and not me. . A few days ago I felt I was getting somewhere with my thought processes but it feels hard again now. Not to say I dont get what you guys have all said (I really did!) but I can't seem to reach that place of calm I was in a few days ago... .

I so wanted to post that everything was good and I was happy and calm etc - that doing something for me made me feel great. I should feel this - but my nerves about seeing him have now taken me back to the bad place... . 

[123Phoebe]

Connect, maybe it would be best to not see him today?  Call him and tell him you're feeling pretty tired and not up for it today?

Also, you're not with your previous boyfriends anymore.  If everything was so wonderfully relaxed with them, why aren't you still with one of them?

[patientandclear]

  Connect.  You are so transparent & thoughtful about your struggles to get on solid footing with respect to this r/s -- it's always enlightening to hear your "on the one hand, but on the other hand" full picture.

What you're writing about right now really resonates with me.  I may start a separate thread about it: basically, the line between radical acceptance, giving space etc., and the damage that it does to accept things that are genuinely hurtful.  I've asked that same question several different times over the past year -- it seems to be the thing I have the most trouble with on Staying.

In my case, my spidey senses say that my exbf is actually doing something I find hurtful.  Being emotionally intimate with me in the gaps while he explores and develops a new r/s with another woman.  Giving him the space to do that while remaining so emotionally accessible to him doesn't feel cool to me.

In your case, my impression in recent months is that there is no evidence he is actually exploring any competing relationship, but that you are seeing him behave differently with others than with you -- e.g., making plans -- and that hurts because it feels he is not prioritizing you.

And then it feels like there is another layer where you'd be OK if you were not so enmeshed in the r/s, but you still want him to be enmeshed, because if he is not, it feels like the secure basis for the r/s is called into question.

I feel like Phoebe's approach is the best possible antidote to the third set of feelings.  Understanding that enmeshment is not actually a secure basis for a r/s, not at all, and that ironically, making clear that you are not threatened by him living his life at times separately from you is a good way to create security and enjoyment for you both.

The middle area -- where there are specific things you want that are reasonable and that he denies you while giving them to others -- seems more problematic to me.  That seems like an area of DEARMAN work, possibly.  Because the line between letting him live his life, and join you if he wants, vs. being treated like a doormat while others are treated well ... .seems like an important line.

My area -- letting him have a great deal of emotional access to me with no expectations or obligations whatsoever, and when I have no reason to think he isn't exploring the same thing with someone else, when I know I don't want to be in anything ressembling an open r/s -- also seems very problematic -- and I will go explore that on another thread.

I'm interested to see how you work this feeling through & how you end up handling it.

[Seashells]

Hi friends,

Connect      P&C 

I'm glad you started this thread Connect.  I'm learning so much from it too. 

Is it possible the trust issues from the ex gf are lingering Connect?  How do you feel about that now? 

I know I struggle with this, if there has been a breach of trust with regards to fidelity (emotional or otherwise), it can be a hard issue to get past.

And frankly should we if our partner has given us reason to question it due to their past behavior and possible BPD related issues?

Have you dealt with this in the past with your guy Phoebe?  I thought I'd remembered you bringing up this subject in the past but don't want to make assumptions about what I thought I'd read in case I'm wrong.

I too enjoy reading your input Phoebe, it's like a breath of fresh air to me.   

I'm recognizing my own co-dependent tendencies, boundary issues, etc and trying to work on them.  Trying to find and focus on my own happiness as well regardless.  Right now I'm dealing with anger from him breaking boundaries to the point where I can't bring myself to do the lesssons.  So, I'll probably be starting a post to get ideas on handling that in a more productive way.

[123Phoebe]

Have you dealt with this in the past with your guy Phoebe?  I thought I'd remembered you bringing up this subject in the past but don't want to make assumptions about what I thought I'd read in case I'm wrong.

I've dealt with all kinds of things with my guy in the past and still do!  I suspect he has untreated BPD, there are going to be things to deal with.

As far as infidelity, I used to spy on him, never caught him (and I'm a pretty thorough PI ).  In my mind (feelings = facts), he must have been though and I'd behave as if he had-- withholding affection, being bhity, absolutely not committing to anything because of my own fears.  One foot in, one foot out.  Cling, but not really present.  I'd whine to friends that I think he's seeing someone, probably posted about it on here, anyone who was willing to listen to me I'd subject them to it, to my fears... .

I've relaxed, whew.  My behavior contributed to a lot of our problems.  It wasn't all him.

[patientandclear]

Have you dealt with this in the past with your guy Phoebe?  I thought I'd remembered you bringing up this subject in the past but don't want to make assumptions about what I thought I'd read in case I'm wrong.

As far as infidelity, I used to spy on him, never caught him (and I'm a pretty thorough PI ).  In my mind (feelings = facts), he must have been though and I'd behave as if he had-- withholding affection, being bhity, absolutely not committing to anything because of my own fears.  One foot in, one foot out.  Cling, but not really present.  I'd whine to friends that I think he's seeing someone, probably posted about it on here, anyone who was willing to listen to me I'd subject them to it, to my fears... .

Gah.  This makes me squirm uncomfortably.  

OK, Phoebe, though.  Let's just say ... .that your guy had a known history of overlapping relationships.  And a known history of reaching out to other women with whom he had a past sexual/romantic connection, in the midst of your r/s.

I think Seashells, Connect & I are all in that boat.

This is where the line between self-preservation, boundaries and not being a doormat, on the one hand, seem to run headlong into the awesome openness and acceptance you display on the other.  I do get that, ironically, the openness and acceptance could very well be the antidote to their feeling that they need to reach out to these other sources of affirmation.  It may lessen engulfment fears, it makes you attractive, and I think we all know that once people know they have freedom, they may be less likely to want to demonstrate to themselves or others that they can use it.

Yet.  Sailing along with this blithe, affirming, openness, when a voice in your head that is not lacking in foundation to have these fears, says "there may be something else hurtful going on," seems so risky.

Again, Connect, I don't pick up any reason to think your bf is exploring seeing someone else, from any of your stories recently (do you?)  In my own story, I dunno if I have reason to think that or if it's just my residual trauma picking up any and all evidence that could support the inference of betrayal (very BPD of me, actually).  Or if this is me being smart and not naive.

But regardless of the particular facts at any particular moment, I am wondering how we know when we've reached territory where being open and accepting is dangerous and an invitation to doormat status?

[123Phoebe]

I am wondering how we know when we've reached territory where being open and accepting is dangerous and an invitation to doormat status?

For me, it would be if my needs within the relationship were still NOT being met, AFTER becoming comfortable within myself.  I was so not comfortable within myself, I knew something wasn't right with me, just couldn't put my finger on what it was... . 

Someone once asked me, "What do you want?", after a bhit session.  I couldn't answer the question without it revolving around his faults.  I knew I had a problem when I realized I sounded exactly like my mother

Sorry Connect, don't mean to hijack.  How has your day been?

[Seashells]

FWIW-  I don't think you're hi-jacking, and hope I'm not either.

Seems to me the conversation is very relevant to all points from the beginning; this is about how to take the emotional lead.

I relate to so much of your past handling of the relationship Phoebe; see a lot of myself in the description.

We all have our stuff to look at.  I appreciate all of your posts, as well as Connect, P&C, WR, Maybeso, and so many others here, I apologize for those I'm neglecting to mention.  There are many.