What does being the "emotional leader" look like?

[connect]

Hi Guys

This thread is so good - there are so many things being said that I have found very hard to articulate. P&C - you made an accurate assessment of my r/s btw!

I will be quick as am at work. I have lots more to add and will come on later to talk more about what you guys have been saying (which is such great stuff) but I wanted to ask you guys a quick question and ask for your honest-no holds barred responces:

Ok here goes... .After some delving by me he said he did go to the party. Much of the evening he spent talking to two separate women. The first one was a single woman he had quoted a job for. She was flirting with him (he thinks) offered to buy him a drink and he declined - they had a long chat. Second one was his someone's wife/gf - she was "all over him" he said - he later changed this to "she was just friendly and intense". He also told me the barmaid had big bre*sts (he said he told me this as I asked for detail so he will give me detail) The next morning his female neighbour knocked on the door (she is a sexy lesbian girl but wants a baby and has become seductive round him since revealing this to him) He told me he answered the door just in his underwear. (He knows I hate this and I have asked him not to but he has no inhibitions - and as a man first thing in the morning is not the best time to be wondering around just in your underwear if you tend to wake up "excited"... .) he went back to bed and later went round her house and did some work for her in her garden as she had asked him to help. (she loves knocking on his door for help when I am not there and he def has a crush on her)

So I wont dilute this post by talking about my responce and dysregulation due to me asking blah blah -  but what do you think? This is EXACTLY what I mean by the sort of things that happen and the stories I hear after time apart. You cant be hung for them, but do you think HONESTLY that I am nuts for finding this stuff uncomfortable? Honestly - is it me? Am I over jealous?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[connect]

As an aside - my previous partner of 14 years used to go out clubbing with his friends til 4am once a fortnight or more. I didnt have any problem with this so it's not as though I was this jumpy before.

[123Phoebe]

I wanted to ask you guys a quick question and ask for your honest-no holds barred responces:


So I wont dilute this post by talking about my responce and dysregulation due to me asking blah blah -  but what do you think? This is EXACTLY what I mean by the sort of things that happen and the stories I hear after time apart. You cant be hung for them, but do you think HONESTLY that I am nuts for finding this stuff uncomfortable? Honestly - is it me? Am I over jealous?

I think you're overly-involved with someone who isn't.   

[patientandclear]

I think he is attention-seeking and possibly to some extent was willing to make you jealous since you stepped out with friends without him.  If you could simply accept as an article of faith that he is not going to take it further, maybe it wouldn't have to be an issue.  Do you have reason to think that he would take it further?

And is the very fact that it occurs and he is not trying to soothe your fears but almost the opposite, what is causing your hurt?  Not what it could lead to, but the fact that he doesn't care to avoid it in the first place?  That's hard, if so.

The behavior reminds me a lot of MaybeSo's stories of her guy while they were together.  Producing frequent low-grade anxiety that made it very hard to relax in the relationship when she was aware of it going on.

[rosannadanna]

Hey connect,

I have been where you are.  It's really yucky and I vowed to never go there again.  I am basically where Phoebe is with my SO.  But, my guy is also a good-looking charmer who loves to flirt, has a hard time being alone, and admits to a pattern of constantly looking for "the new shiny ball" to soothe his abdonment fears when we are close.  So I have come a loong way and it has been a hard, hard road to emotional detachment.

Some elements that have helped other than detachment:

I naturally have an avoidant attachment style, so being "an individual" in the relationship is pretty easy for me.  My SO finally understands that I am kind of reclusive and need private time to reenergize.  I finally accepted that he is going to fill those spaces with social stuff and I don't have to know all the details.

He is honest.  So his impulsivity and other-directed ways of soothing makes him kind of untrustworthy.  But his integrity and vulnerability with me makes up for it.  Even though he might be reluctant to be honest b/c he fears my disapproval, we can talk about it, I assure him it's ok, and it comes out.

He is dx'ed, has done some recovery work and it now in CODA.  He can at least "talk the talk" with me (I am kind of in that business anyway) and I accept that he may never be able to "walk the walk".  I accept what this is, right now, in the moment; b/c like Phoebe said: my new, heathy self is getting it's needs met.

So I think your dude was telling you:  "See this is what happens when you leave me.  I go off and interact with several women who all would just drop everything just to hook up with me."

It's a way to control you so the chances of you leaving is reduced, IMO.

What do you think?

So you are on this self-exploration journey and just got a little derailed.

What would the old connect do?

What is the new, improved connect going to do?

Take care

[123Phoebe]

So I wont dilute this post by talking about my responce and dysregulation due to me asking blah blah -  

^^This^^ is actually where the good nuggets of insights about ourselves come from... .

Connect, it seems like you're fanning the flames of dysfunction.  If he knows he's going to get some excitement out of these exchanges between you, hey, he's going for it!

If you're wanting this kind of thing to stop, don't feed into it by giving it more energy.  :)on't 'delve' and 'ask for details' about something you know is going to upset you.  Were you invited to this party?  Isn't one of things you're wanting to change, the things you do together?

Why would he invite you (to do certain things) when he gets to relive it (his way... .) after the fact, with an exciting unhealthy dose of drama to boot?

I would be so blasé about it, while doing something super special for myself.

Disordered people get away with crap because we accept it.  :)on't accept crap.

[briefcase]

Awesome discussion.  For me, having some healthy detachment and being an emotional leader isn't the same thing as "live and let live."  It's more about maintaining my own identity, and keeping some perspective on my wife's emotion of the moment.    

If anything, keeping some emotional perspective helps clarify my boundaries in the relationship.  

[waverider]

Acceptance should not be confused by denial of your own rights to feel pain and distress.

You have to really work on, and know, yourself in order to set your levels for Boundaries/Acceptance/Interaction.

Know your own pain and what is unhealthy, and what is simply just confusion.

It does not matter if your fears are "irrational' on the surface, they are still real. Do not fake acceptance. Genuine Acceptance is a great place to be in. Faux acceptance is the seed of resentment. Which in turn is a relationship killer.

[Scout99]

Hi Connect and everybody else here too! 

I am on the road so I'll just jump in here briefly to touch on something p&c as well as some others have touched on... .And that is the sort of side topic to this that is about r/s status and if the connection as such is mutual or unbalanced too apart from issues on what to do together or not so to speak... .

As most of you know I am currently separated from my ex BPD guy, and we are nowadays in a for me much more acceptable friendship compared to our for me stressful r/s... .And seeing the difference between those two different statuses has made me realize a few things about myself, but also some things about why it is sometimes very hard to follow the very good advice that often are given from many of you who live in long term and committed relationships w pw BPD... .

First of all, the level of the disorder does of course matter when it comes to the ability to even begin to create a committed r/s in the first place... .

But the most important factor that I think makes it difficult for people like myself as well as p&c and to some degree even to connect is that we are or in my case have been struggling already with whether or not it really is a relationship!

I think there is a huge difference in if you can say that there is a mutual understanding of both parties that they are in a r/s or if one party is sort of jumping in and out of it all the time so to speak. Since then all other issues automatically puts the very r/s on the stand all the time... .

I may be rambling here... .But to me there is a difference in whether or not me and my partner want to do a certain thing together or not one day or if we are going to see each other  at all the next weekend or perhaps not at all in the future and if that is sort of the issue all the time. Or if it is always a matter of the other person to decide if we are to see each other at all or not... .The need to define the r/s status then becomes very easily a big thing and colors everything else and the eggshell dance is on... .

That is in a way a different problem from whether or not out partner wants to join in on some weekend activity or not so to speak... .And it makes it a bit harder to find the strength in oneself to make the decision everyday of whether or not we are a couple, compared to whether or not we are going to the movies on Friday together or not... .

What I have learned from my own r/s with my ex bf is that his fear of loosing me was so big that he didn't dare to fully commit to having a r/s with me, hence he did all sorts of weird things to push and pull. And our r/s status were sort of always on the line in everything! And that made it very hard for me to both keep boundaries as well as make sure I did what I wanted, since compared to not being with him at all, most things I would normally like to do sort of lost its allure... .It is toxic and very unhealthy, but at the same time very human that we react that way. And I can so relate to both connect and p&c in their respective struggles to find any value in doing stuff by themselves, since underneath while doing all that stuff for themselves lurks the uncomfortable feeling that is the same as the ones most of us have experienced in the beginning after a painful break up... .When we sort of try to have fun, but we are not, because inside there is grief and pain... .Only it feels like that all the time, since the r/s is insecure!

However! And this is important I think! Detachment is the only way to go regardless! We need to detach in order to get our own needs met. And living long term in a r/s that is not a fully and committed relationships is I believe one of the most painful places a person can find themselves in... .

The painful thing about taking the route of detachment is that then we also have to be able to dare to face the possibility of the r/s actually coming apart. That is the tough part, since we cannot make another person do what we want them to, and if us detaching means they will do the same, then that is a consequence we will then have to be ready for... .However that is at least a pain with an end... .And not an everlasting insecurity... .

What I am trying to get across here is, it does take two to tango, and some people w BPD depending on both the level of the disorder, potential treatment and also life circumstances are able to function in a r/s with a partner who also can upkeep their boundaries and take care of themselves. And then the r/s will work... .

But if the level of the disorder is severe and or circumstances in life makes it hard for the pw BPD to commit due to whatever reason, then it becomes harder for the partner... .

And ultimately we need to decide how hard a life we want to have and how much of ourselves we truly are willing to sacrifice without loosing ourselves completely... .

Paradoxically I can now through my friendship with my ex BPD guy see how much he has been and still is struggling with both himself and his feelings for me... .He still wishes we could be together but he realizes he has problems that makes it impossible at least now, in his mind. When we were together he could not see his own part in things at all... .He treats me way more respectful now and we can talk about things that were impossible before. Of course that is due to the fact that when we are not together his abandonment fear is not constantly triggered, and that also makes it easier for him to contemplate seeking out help, since he can in a different way see how his problems and conflicting emotions are still there, even though I am not, and therefore cannot be blamed for it... .

But it is also first now that I am able to see how affected I became in this whole mess... .And most of all how virtually impossible it was for me even to address in any real and honest way what I really wanted... .Since doing so meant loosing him... .But the way to radical acceptance also meant facing that possibility too... .And today I am glad I did. It's not like I don't have any feelings for him anymore... .I do, but I realize that where he is now, a r/s is simply not possible without me loosing me two... .Ad two lost souls can't tango very well... .That's for sure... .

And just like Waverider says here: we cannot fake acceptance! Or use it as a means to make the other person change to our advantage! That is very very important!

Therefore it can not be looked upon as a method or a tool to be an emotional leader... .We need first and foremost to be emotional leaders in our own lives! And then whomever wants to follow, may... .But we cannot make anybody do so by our actions... .They can however choose to because of our actions. But that will never happen if our actions or motives to begin with are fake... .

So taking charge of our own lives the way Phoebe so often describes so well also comes with a price, and that is to be willing to take the eventual consequence of the other choosing not to follow... .

Finally I would like to add the perspective that it is difficult to keep and maintain a r/s with an emotionally unstable person, and in order to make up for the imbalance they bring to the table, the healthy partner needs to be ultra stable so to speak... .Taking it that far may not be necessary in a r/s with an emotionally stable person, which may sometimes be important to consider too... .In a r/s with a more stable and healthy person it is more "allowed" or ok to fall in and out of being needy and weak on one hand and strong and self sufficient on the other... .Both partners will contribute and help balance and even things out... .In a r/s where one part is emotionally unstable that will not happen... .

Confused ramblings here on my part I believe... .But I am temporarily a bit preoccupied with a big move and a lot of traveling... .After this week is over things will finally get back to normal on my end... .Ad hopefully my posts too... .

Best Wishes to you all in the meantime!

Scout99

[patientandclear]

Scout -- fascinating post.  Thank you.  It's gratifying for me to hear you explain that your exbf expressed that his fear of losing you is so great that he cannot try to be in a commitment r/s with you.  But that he is paradoxically more able to explore respectful connection with you as "friends." This is exactly the dynamic with my ex, though he never explained his sudden insistence on "friends only" when we reconnected after almost a year of NC, so I am interested to hear about your arrangement and how you got there.  I cannot express how much more lonely & miserable I would be trying to deal with this without y'all on this board.

Connect, back to your particular situation ... .I really do see his shenanigans at that party as possibly harmless (in the sense that it will lead nowhere & he intends it to lead nowhere) payback for you going out alone.  But do you have ongoing bad feelings about the possibility of him crossing a line that matters to you, in terms of engaging with other women?  Or is it the very fact that your partner is responding to you doing something healthy by engaging in what reasonably could be viewed as hurtful behavior, the thing that is hurting you (not just the prospect of him actually getting involved with someone else)?

[connect]

Hello  - I'll tell you what guys, this thread has been really great   Been reading it at work whenever I can x

I will write a proper post asap when I can get on for longer (am going out in a min)x thank you all for your help x

[rosannadanna]

I would also say that learning and putting to use everything on this site has been a HUGE factor in improving my interactions with my SO.

Scout, you posted some really good stuff.

I think there is a huge difference in if you can say that there is a mutual understanding of both parties that they are in a r/s or if one party is sort of jumping in and out of it all the time so to speak. Since then all other issues automatically puts the very r/s on the stand all the time... .

BPD's are going to be jumping in and out no matter what.  They may physically be staying, but their mental construct of their partner and the relationship is changing rapidly.  What makes this manageable is our level of acceptance and our partners ability to talk about their experience with us.  If it can't be brought out into the open, it can be a mindfck for us.

But if the level of the disorder is severe and or circumstances in life makes it hard for the pw BPD to commit due to whatever reason, then it becomes harder for the partner... .

And ultimately we need to decide how hard a life we want to have and how much of ourselves we truly are willing to sacrifice without loosing ourselves completely... .

YES Scout, you nailed it.

[waverider]

But if the level of the disorder is severe and or circumstances in life makes it hard for the pw BPD to commit due to whatever reason, then it becomes harder for the partner... .

And ultimately we need to decide how hard a life we want to have and how much of ourselves we truly are willing to sacrifice without loosing ourselves completely... .

This is why we have to work on us, untangling ourselves from this chaos. Until we become stable and centered it is had to accept this reality. The reality that we can't 'fix" it, the reality that we can't maintain a high level of alertness to always provide perfect reactions always. It is always likely to be dysfunctional.

Once we get to this point we are in a position to properly access our ultimate choice that Scout99 is pointing out. Whether we stay or not it will be a choice based on reality. living a life by educated choice, rather than default, makes the sun shine a whole lot brighter and brings with it a greater capability of Acceptance.

In short learning to accept reality and yourself comes before being completely ready to accept anyone else.

[connect]

Hi guys,

Started a long post yesterday but needed to go out so didn't finish it.

The discussion here is great.

Phoebe I wondered what you meant by your reply to my comment?

Quote from: connect on September 30, 2013, 01:26:01 PM

So I wont dilute this post by talking about my responce and dysregulation due to me asking blah blah - 

^^This^^ is actually where the good nuggets of insights about ourselves come from.

Did you mean that me talking about the dysregulation is something I should be focussing on more? Forgive me if I am being a bit dumb here - I just couldn't work out what you meant and as you are so insightful I would like to know  

Am a bit exhausted here - lots of heavy work stuff going on as well as other things which isn't ideal atm. Also my bf had another rage the night before last and I ended up crying. It was over me hesitating when I answered a question. He said it meant I was lying or following a script in my head as I didn't just come out with what I wanted to say as he does (with no filter). He then started on the whole "I would rather be alone then with someone who edits what they say to me" stuff. I let him be and self soothe and carried on as normal. He then apologised. Then retracted the apology. Then he did his therapist's exercise of seeing it from my point of view. Then apologised again with a hug and explained that a hesitation before answering a question is a trigger for him as his father used to be like that with him and it bought back old stuff for him. So good the therapy is working as there was a quick recovery. I told him I wouldn't see him last night so we could have a rest. It was pretty exhausting though.

So that's where I am atm    

[connect]

Also wanted to add that I also agree with some of the comments about the difficulty of the r/s status. The uncertainty of this can lead to every little problem becoming a potential r/s ender/redefine situation and hence make us nons more touchy about the dysregulations.

If I felt my bf and I were on the same page ref the r/s then the problems wouldn't feel so big in my head perhaps.

Scout you said:

I think there is a huge difference in if you can say that there is a mutual understanding of both parties that they are in a r/s or if one party is sort of jumping in and out of it all the time so to speak. Since then all other issues automatically puts the very r/s on the stand all the time... .

Your answer Rossanadanna was good:

BPD's are going to be jumping in and out no matter what.  They may physically be staying, but their mental construct of their partner and the relationship is changing rapidly.  What makes this manageable is our level of acceptance and our partners ability to talk about their experience with us.  If it can't be brought out into the open, it can be a mindfck for us.

This exchange speaks to me A LOT. The circumstance is like mine and the answer is good. Its spot on with my situation. So perhaps I should talk about this situation more? Its something I have been scared to touch on in a way - his actual experience of jumping in and out. From the outside we see each other all the time (practically living there) BUT from the inside it doesn't match how it looks.

He has tentative plans again with his friends this Saturday night (if he can get/wants to get a babysitter). I think this is becoming a touchy subject for me now. Like others get the "fun" side of him going out and the commitments to plans.  

Also (when he disregulated over my "hesitation" he told me he is completely open with me and I don't tell him anything. So untrue when I only heard about his plans as I overheard a chat with his friends. Goes back to me just focussing on myself and my plans again I guess. Its so hard. I think when I have my base back again (I get my flat back at the end of the month rather then basing myself at my friends house) then things may get a little easier for me - I will have my own place to think about.

[Grey Kitty]

Also (when he disregulated over my "hesitation" he told me he is completely open with me and I don't tell him anything. So untrue when I only heard about his plans as I overheard a chat with his friends.

Also a reminder that when he is dysregulated, your best bet is to not be there--you will just get pissed at the things he says, pretty much guaranteed!

[123Phoebe]

So I wont dilute this post by talking about my responce and dysregulation due to me asking blah blah -  [/color]

^^This^^ is actually where the good nuggets of insights about ourselves come from.

Did you mean that me talking about the dysregulation is something I should be focussing on more?

Also a reminder that when he is dysregulated, your best bet is to not be there--you will just get pissed at the things he says, pretty much guaranteed!

As Grey Kitty says, don't be around dysregulation.

And don't instigate it!

Connect, you were feeling a little funky about going over there after the party night.  You were already ready, ya know?  It's good to take a step back when we can recognize in ourselves, our own dysregulation of sorts.  

You have a lot of really good insights into your own behaviors already.  Put those babies into action/inaction, for the good!