where am I?

[patientandclear]

Hi friends ... .

As most of you know, I have an emotionally intimate friendship with my uBPDexbf.  Explicitly, I've told him I am not open to resuming a romantic/sexual r/s unless he addresses his intimacy issues in some fashion, as he never has shown the slightest insight into why he pushed me away so violently in the midst of what seemed like a wonderful r/s.  Explicitly, he has said he only wants a friendship with me.

Day to day though, we have periods in which for all intents and purposes except sex, we function as each other's partner.  We are close, we've gotten to know each other much better, we've worked through hard things, we share important questions and struggles.  :)uring our periods of closeness, we also share tiny little aspects of daily living, you know, the texts that say "it's snowing!" or "my professor just said this in class" or "just overheard this while walking home."

Six months ago, he suddenly moved to another city (sold his coop apartment & moved within three weeks of deciding to do it).  There was no particular reason that I am aware of to choose this other city.  It was as if he just wanted a new start somewhere.  (He is 50 BTW, with adult kids who live elsewhere.)

For the whole past year, as chronicled here on Staying, I've struggled with my feelings of love for him, which are amplified when we are close, because it feels like for people who like each other this much, have this much in common, have a strong physical & sexual connection, and have this much goodwill toward one another, the next step is obvious -- we are supposed to be together.  Yet -- he has an extreme history of unstable relationships, ours being just one of the most recent exhibits, and he pushed me away hard (breaking up, not just withdrawing) for no reason that made sense, and there's no reason to think he's resolved those issues.  He is not in therapy.

So we've been in this strange place of both treating this "friendship" as an unspoken primary relationship, but with no rules, or acknowledgement.  And the basic dynamic, no surprise, has been that he gets close to me at a new level or in new ways (e.g., meets my family, shares something really hard or intimate with me) and then pulls away.  I don't object or criticize or shame that behavior.  And then he returns.  Our current rules are that there are no rules (except there is no abusiveness except to the extent you count the silent treatment as abuse -- he has never raged, he just uses silent withdrawal instead).  He can come and go as he pleases.  So can I.  We do ... .and the truth is, his going hurts me, and I suspect my going also hurts him.'

I'd sum up my approach to this for the past year as: allowing the r/s to progress and see where it goes organically.  Use the best practices I can to ensure it, and I, am healthy.  Love him from here, accept what he can give without a lot of pre-judgment or assumptions, and see where that takes us.  Maintain our r/s in a good place, and if he ever has a realization that this thing that we are doing is love, as opposed to the rush of excitement about a possibly-perfect new person, I'd be open to exploring that with him, though not just plunging back in without a plan for how to deal with how he feels when he gets scared/spooked.

***

So, my current dilemma.

About a month ago, after we visited each other a couple of times, he returned to his new city, and started school.  He was exposed to a whole new universe of people, which is great -- I'm not threatened in general by him having close connections with others.  I don't want to be enmeshed and I don't want him to be either.

At the same time, he referred to a new friend a couple of times, and seemed to have a new reference point besides me for important decisions about his work -- stuff that before, he mostly asked me about.  Again, this is not bad, just significant to my growing feeling that he is developing another primary r/s.

He suddenly developed a new texting pattern with me -- for the first time in over a year, he would just drop out of text conversations we were having without acknowledging he was going or needed to say goodbye/goodnight.  These were mostly very late at night when he was at his place -- very unlikely that anyone else was actually with him then, but still, it was a departure from the normal care he takes with me not to make me feel ignored or unimportant.  He suddenly didn't seem to be worrying about that, not a bit.  I posted about that here, and the general consensus was that I should say something about it.  I didn't end up doing so because I had a gut level reaction to sending something that essentially said "I'd really appreciate it if you prioritized me more and were less rude to me." It seemed really counterproductive.  And also, it seemed so obvious he would just respond by saying "hey, we're just friends, you need to step back your expectations," which is both superficially legitimate, and deeply dishonest, because he doesn't use me as a friend, when we're close, he uses me as a pseudo-partner.  Yet I haven't been able to figure out a way to talk about that with him -- it's completely unacknowledged between us.

Since then, the past two weeks has been an extreme push-pull cycle.  A week ago in a text there was a little hint of jealousy, like he thought I was out with someone we both know -- and it was clear from his text that he himself was not "out and about."  I didn't get his text till the next morning due to text delivery delays, which no doubt compounded his impression I might be with someone else.  But the next morning, I answered, explained the text delay, and we were off to the races, with him asking for my help on some work stuff that's really important to him, us having a lot of fun consulting about it all weekend, and then, him confiding in me for the first time that he realized he has an attachment disorder.  After that he shut down that part of the conversation pretty quickly, but we stayed connected that night with texts about other things (I'd offered to talk by phone, which he almost never does, and he declined -- talking about his realization about attachment issues seemed very hard for him & he wanted to stop).

More email & texts the next few days, still intense.  We had a sort of "fight" in which we both thought the other was offended by something we texted -- ended with him checking in to make sure I was OK, which is a hard thing for him -- hard for him to acknowledge he might have hurt me.  We seemed to be OK at that point.

And then he has withdrawn tremendously since.  After seeming to reach a decision with me about his work issue, he proceeded to do something completely different that we had never discussed (visible on his website).  That's fine in itself, I don't need to be part of his decision-making process & it's his work -- it's just so stark a shift, from having me there every step of the way, to having me completely outside his thinking.

And then I have PTSD-inspired instincts that if he is not involving me in his thinking process, he is doubtless reaching out to someone else -- honestly, as I type this, I don't know if that is a rational conclusion or not.  He does replace people, he does love to have an interlocutor.  He did move from talking constantly to me about this stuff to no communication about it (we've been emailing about other things) very abruptly.  But is it possible he is just withdrawn & doing this stuff on his own?  I suppose.  My spidey senses say there is another woman playing the interlocutor role though.

So anyway, extreme push-pull. Extremely close territory, he invites me in, so far as I can tell, nothing goes "wrong."  Then, I am almost entirely out.  And because of my past & our past, I suspect he has someone else in "my place."

I am trying to figure out what to do, myself.  I just did a fascinating, wrenching session of a trauma recovery therapy treatment called Lifespan Integration, in which my bad feelings about all this took me back to a much earlier r/s which I've always idealized, in which I could see for the first time how much it hurt me that that other man accessed my most intimate places, emotionally and physically, and then didn't write to me for months (the situation was complex, I was not faultless, I've always rationalized that he did nothing wrong). But actually it was intensely hurtful & felt like a deep abandonment.  And here I am again, in a situation with my uBPDex, in which I repeat this abandonment cycle almost weekly.  We get close, he seems to want a lot with me, I offer something lovely & important about myself to him, he seems to want it, then he pushes me away and often, with silence.

I can see that the impact of that cycle on me is Not Good.  It's a continuing trauma repetition machine.

He is who he is.

I can either:

Tell him about this and ask him to help me.  (?)

Or, pull away imperceptibly and step this r/s down to where there is no intimacy, and thus, the repeating traumatic repetition machine stops replicating the same injuries.

Or, pull away and explain that to him honestly.

Or, radically accept that this is who he is and that it isn't necessarily that he is abandoning me in fact, this is how he builds a relationship, and be patient (and clear!), and allow for the sine curve, and somehow override my trauma responses that are keyed to earlier abandonments by other men, a pattern this relationship was almost engineered to exacerbate?  Use force of will and mental discipline to not let our current pattern deepen my own sense that no one will ever choose me & prioritize me & make the effort to stay with me?  Because I know he is who he is, and that is not necessarily what his patterns mean?

Ugh.  I feel like with one set of lenses, I can see that this is me being the fallback emotional caretaker for this man, while he explores or is free to explore exciting other relationships.  And I am only minimally protected from the emotional harm of that by the theory that we are "just friends," by the fact that he is not leaving my bed to go date someone else. Because we are, when we are close, for all intents and purposes, partners, so it does feel to me like emotional infidelity.

And through another set of lenses, I can see that he is being him, and maybe he is really trying, and we are actually having a sustained, meaningful relationship with integrity, and who knows where it can go with patience and clarity, and he isn't a monstrous new edition of betrayal in my past relationships, that is my own fear and my own stuff, he is him, and I am me, and it would be good if I could be more, not less, open with him, and remove the barriers I am imposing to our connection by being so damn scared and poised for flight.

As usual when I post a new thread on here, I am feeling mightily disoriented, like I cannot tell the difference between up and down on this.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

I realized I can boil down the range of my indecision as follows:

The memories of abandonment & being deprioritized compared to other women in my past relationships, & the obvious connection to my fear that uBPDex is choosing another woman over me -- amplified by the knowledge that he did immediately move on to another woman when he & I split, and was already communicating with her during our high water mark of happiness & closeness -- are really powerful.  But I don't know what it means.

Does it mean I am importing my past hurts into this dynamic with him & am seeing things that are not necessarily there, that are fear-based?  And thus, as Phoebe and others have pointed out to me elsewhere, I may be the one who is imposing barriers to intimacy, with my refusal to initiate communication, my flight instinct ... .?

Or does it mean I have enough reason to know this dynamic, I keep allowing it to repeat and hurt me, and I owe it to myself to see it & respond to it differently this time?

[myself]

 

Again, if you were to be more open and honest with him, wouldn't that be better? Talk about the unacknowledged stuff. Get yourself unstuck from it. He is who he is, yes, as you are who you are. So be yourself! Speak your heart. You have every right to do so, and it will help you heal and grow. Even if you just remain as friends, it would be beneficial. If it pushes him away, he's not really there to begin with. The general consensus of your last thread, asking very similar questions, was speak up for yourself and bring those hidden bits to light. You didn't take that advice, and the situation did not get better. It might not even if you do, but what else is there to try at this point? Don't be so wrapped up in what his reactions are going to be that you're not taking your own steps. That's a lesson many of us have had to learn, and it's a good one. 

[patientandclear]

The general consensus of your last thread, asking very similar questions, was speak up for yourself and bring those hidden bits to light. You didn't take that advice, and the situation did not get better.

Hi Myself!    Always so good to hear from you.

I'm not sure I agree.  I let it be, and continued to be open with him.  I didn't close down emotionally (pulling back, getting all anxious) -- I pushed myself to still be there.  And interestingly, we had the biggest breakthrough we have ever had about his intimacy patterns.  He was clearly in an uncomfortable place, I asked about it, pushed gently to hear about it, and he unspooled this amazing revelation that he had understood he pushes away people who love him because he is afraid of being hurt.

As I've said, he is 50.  In all prior conversations about his r/s history, including ours, he has acted like he either takes at face value his excuses for leaving, or he just "doesn't get it" why he needed to get away, or he figured he needed to learn to be alone.

This was a big deal for us.  That he told me this.

And the reticence I had about asking for him to be more steady with me -- not to come so close and then step back so abruptly ... .well, in part, it's because it feels like suggesting I cannot accept who and how he is.  And there are strong themes on here that accepting those attributes, as long as they are not abusive, is important to building these relationships.

In our exchanges the past few weeks, I've been quite open about my feelings about what has been going on between us.  I've offered to listen to him on the phone, I've told him I wasn't completely OK about how our "fight" played out, I've pointed out that we used to be able to talk about even very hard things on the phone, back when we had no reason to trust each other.  I've told him I'm having a hard time with various issues and he offered to talk to me, even by phone, if I wanted.  I feel like we are making glacial but real progress in being real about the fact that there is deep emotional content in our r/s.

I'm not at all saying I've ruled out communicating further about how this dynamic (e.g., he asks me for input, then does something completely different without talking with me, brings me close, then withdraws) makes me feel, but if those reactions are coming more from my own past relationships, shouldn't I deal with my own stuff, and not ask him to take care of it for me?  Shouldn't I accept he acts how he acts, draw appropriate conclusions about what the nature of our r/s is and what I can expect, and proceed from there?

And I do take seriously that it's super tough for him to let anyone in.  I feel like my letting that be is actually a fairly important trust issue between us.  Knowing that I will let him go when he needs to, emotionally, and that he can come back ... .isn't that an important piece of building trust?

***

But as I wrote in my second post above, my ambivalence and confusion comes from not knowing whether the above paradigm (we are building something, slowly and carefully and without pressure) is the right one, or whether what is actually happening is that I am his gap-filler "true friend" while he explores exciting new love feelings with another woman.  Without judgment about whether that can ever be a comfortable place for a former lover to inhabit, for me, because of past issues, even that idea is super painful.  And it makes my continued openness to him feel like I am participating in my own re-traumatization, because I so predictably offer meaningful aspects of myself to him, and he takes them, and he gives his own back, and it seems so important ... .and then he pulls back ... .and maybe he's seeing someone else, we certainly have no rules against it ... .and there is this hurt voice in my head that just cannot stop asking "why-not-me-why-not-me-why-not-me."

Which paradigm is the right one?  How can I figure that out?

[Whatwasthat]

HI P and C   

It's lovely to 'see' you - as always.   

My gut reaction in this situation would be to stop trying to work this out on an intellectual level for a while. Instead  I think it would be good to  go for another 3 or 4 sessions with this trauma T (who sounds very interesting) and then re-assess how you think and feel. The sessions will surely help in untangling some of the knots in your head. And at best they might actually enable you to look at the situation from a whole new perspective.

I go on about this endlessly I know - but I really think it's important to be doing enough physical exercise  and/or physical therapy too. I've found physical work very helpful in both bringing out old, buried emotions and helping to process intense and challenging feelings.

When my head is screaming at me that it's impossible to sort things out it's usually best if I stop trying to think things through and turn to other means to clear the 'blockage'.

Sending warm hugs. WWT.

[Seashells]

There were so many things I wanted to quote in this, I got a little overwhelmed with it as the number of them rose while I went through your posts P&C 

I don't have concrete all knowing answers of course and you need to decide for yourself.  Your insight is tremendous.  Insight does not always fix situations nor get us what we want and need to be happy as you and I both know well friend.

My "spidey" sense is that this man does fall back on you as an emotional "comfort zone", and you are allowing this knowingly, but justifying it to yourself in some ways and getting some comforts back also, but it is also painful for you.   I'm not sure whether he's sharing in that painful side of the relationship, nor am I saying he should, but clearly your dynamics appear to be focusing on his needs as opposed to your own best interests at times.   (sorry I hope that wasn't too harsh) And I'm sure the same could be said of me many times, so that's not meant as criticism. 

I so agree with Whatwasthat in encouraging you to exercise and "get out of your head" and away from analyzing it for a bit if you can.

I ruminate and do analysis paralysis.  I may have it down to a science now. 

I would ask you this (as I ask myself frequently in my own situation) being he is 50, and assuming you're within a reasonable range of his age; how are you going to feel about risking years of waiting him out to no avail?

How many years and how much time are you willing to give this "glacial" situation? 

Just a few of my thoughts after reading yours and thinking of my own stuff as well.  None of us are perfect.  We all need to be allowed and able to make mistakes in life and in our relationships.  Tip toe-ing to avoid tiny misteps over fear we're going to crack an eggshell is no way to live my friend.   Friendships are two sided in a comfortable non analytical way; and not comfortable in a "if I take a slight mis-step you might leave kind of way".    

I hope none of this is hurtful as it wasn't intended to be and if I put my foot in my mouth and said too much, or assumed too much,  I hope you will forgive me for it.

So much for giving up my lecturing... .

[patientandclear]

I hope none of this is hurtful as it wasn't intended to be and if I put my foot in my mouth and said too much, or assumed too much,  I hope you will forgive me for it.

So much for giving up my lecturing... .

Seashells  

No eggshells here, my friend!  You were nowhere near too harsh or too lecturing, nor did you say too much.

I think I am not being completely clear about the fork in the road it feels like I need to confront.  For a bunch of reasons I would love it if this guy could forge into deeper water with me and try to have a real r/s again.  If I want to make that possible, I need to be open, not closed & withdrawing.  And honest. And vulnerable.

But there is another narrative that says he is just one more man who is going to take what I offer and then discard me.  The part of me that fears this is not crazy.  That's what he's done with all women in his life to date, to the best of my knowledge, which comes mostly from those women themselves first or second hand, not from him.

So far I've stayed in this limbo where I'm too interesting and challenging to discard because I haven't declared myself to him, you know?  I haven't said I want something that he can say no to.  So the safety that I feel comes from not making any avowals of wanting anything more than "friendship," which could mean almost anything.

But when we are close, and it is beyond doubt how much more there is between us than just being "friends," it feels like I am chickening out of asking for what I really want, out of fear of renewed rejection.  And as I've been realizing in this new therapy approach, that goes way back with me, to my early adulthood.  So it is possible that we are stuck where we are because of my own lack of courage.

But then again, we are also stuck where we are because he, as yet, from everything I can tell, has no insight into how to deal with his hard, scary feelings in a r/s, and I don't want to plunge back in -- I certainly don't want to urge or pressure him to plunge back in -- when he has no insight, and just condemn us to another loop around the same circuit that made us both feel so bad the first time.  I do have more insights than I did then, but that doesn't mean that he won't run, hard, when things get scary.  My insights don't control how he reacts, and recent months have shown that he still pushes me away hard when things get very close.  I can wait that out, but can he?  He doesn't just withdraw in his romantic relationships, he ends things.

I hate to reduce it to this & to ask for advice on such a question, but: I think my question is "what should I want?"  Is trying to explore where this r/s can go just stupid and pointless?  It seems like part of the problem is that I am simultaneously trying to be safe & trying to explore what is possible between us.  Is there some way to do both, and not be incoherently veering from being open (when brave) to withdrawing (when scared of his reactions), myself, where I end up looking like I am the one with BPD?

[123Phoebe]

But there is another narrative that says he is just one more man who is going to take what I offer and then discard me.  

I hate to reduce it to this & to ask for advice on such a question, but: I think my question is "what should I want?"  

What do you want?  Try to answer that without attaching anything to him     

[patientandclear]

But there is another narrative that says he is just one more man who is going to take what I offer and then discard me.  

I hate to reduce it to this & to ask for advice on such a question, but: I think my question is "what should I want?"  

What do you want?  Try to answer that without attaching anything to him    

Among many other things in life, I want to be with him.  Not sure if that qualifies as "not attaching anything to him."  The other pieces of my life that I want are there (family, meaningful work, other sources of enjoyment).  I don't need help figuring those out -- though less drama on this front would allow me to devote more energy to those areas.

But I don't want to be with him at all costs, if that makes sense.  Not if it harms him.  Not if he cannot be with me without harming me.  I want to be with him in a healthy dynamic that is good for us both.  As I've told him since things first fell apart, "I'll go anywhere with you that is healthy and good."

[peas]

Does he like the new city he moved to? Why did he move? How long has he been there and does he have plans to eventually return to your city? Have you and he ever talked about you moving to his city? And, is he an easy car drive away or a plane ride?

What would happen if you cooled it on the texts and contact?

It seems you are treating this guy with kid gloves to create the best environment possible for you and he to return to a committed relationship. Your posts read like you are doing a lot in your power to help him but at a large expense to you since you -- are you tending to your own day-to-day needs? Are you open to meeting another man in your town?

If I had it to do over again with my exuBPDbf, knowing what I know now after reading other people's stories and reading the self-help literature and examining his behavior from a distance, if I wanted him to be with me I would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. I would get on with my life and if he wanted me badly enough, he could do the chasing. I would put much less effort into maintaining the r/s if I could do it over. I let him take too much from me and I feel used.

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, I see two different issues in your r/s and I'd like to separate them out a bit.

1. You are trying to accept him as a disordered person with the push/pull thing, and some (albeit very limited) emotional growth on these issues.

2. You suspect he's getting involved with another woman during your "friendship" or at least in some of the latest "push" phase gaps.

Regarding issue #1, Phoebe's question seems like a good place to start.

Regarding issue #2, I've got a thought for you:

This is completely within the "rules" you and he are operating under--he is allowed to pursue other romantic/intimate relationships. And maintain a highly intimate (but non-sexual) relationship with you at the same time.

Assume that it is true. Or that if it hasn't actually happened yet, it will, and soon. Or it will progress further.

How do you feel about this? Does it work for you or not?

  GK

P.S. Sorry to be throwing tough hard-ass questions at you. If you don't think they are apply, you need not answer.

[patientandclear]

Does he like the new city he moved to? Why did he move? How long has he been there and does he have plans to eventually return to your city? Have you and he ever talked about you moving to his city? And, is he an easy car drive away or a plane ride?

It's hard to tell if he likes the new place.  He is ambivalent about the school he started after arriving.  He's been there for 6 months ... .no long term plans.  He says he is an itinerant soul who isn't likely to stay anywhere permanently.  (That of course is not how he described himself when he was telling me I was the love of his life & the best thing that had ever happened to him.)

We're a long ways apart -- 1,500 miles or so.  Not an easy trip.  We've visited, at a city in between and in my city.  He is not talking about moving back here, no, but I think he could.  He makes impulsive decisions about all things.  A few years back, he set out traveling for two years & then returned here.

What would happen if you cooled it on the texts and contact?

If I completely stopped ... .I dunno.  I was about to say that would be antithetical to our friendship pact, in which we both keep that going, but then I realized -- several times over the past year, he has gotten dysregulated after periods of intense closeness and stopped communicating, and it's been up to me to re-start things.  What would happen if I just stopped?  I don't know.  In general, I don't initiate contact, though he has called me on that & asked that I pull more of my weight in, e.g., asking to see each other.  But after a few days of my not initiating, he will usually reach out.  I don't feel like it would be OK not to respond to that.  I could respond with more or less content, more or less depth, more or less care, of course.

It seems you are treating this guy with kid gloves to create the best environment possible for you and he to return to a committed relationship. Your posts read like you are doing a lot in your power to help him but at a large expense to you since you -- are you tending to your own day-to-day needs? Are you open to meeting another man in your town?

Yes, I'm open to meeting someone else here.  I'm not thinking the odds are great, but I am open.  I've dated other people since we split.  No one who is as interesting to me as him, for a variety of reasons.  Yes, I am tending to my day to day needs.  I just cannot get comfortable with a range of questions about this r/s ... .some of which I now see as a trauma reaction of "what could I go back & do now to prevent the hurt from happening?" which I need to pull out & deal with separately; and some of which are about how to handle things with him going forward.

I do see that my fears really impede my ability to be open with this man.  On the other hand, my fears have a foundation.  That, in two sentences, probably encapsulates all the writing I've done trying to explain my uncertainty about what to do.

If I had it to do over again with my exuBPDbf, knowing what I know now after reading other people's stories and reading the self-help literature and examining his behavior from a distance, if I wanted him to be with me I would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. I would get on with my life and if he wanted me badly enough, he could do the chasing. I would put much less effort into maintaining the r/s if I could do it over. I let him take too much from me and I feel used.

Interesting.  I do think I could stand to do less.  To some extent, my efforts have buffered him from the consequences of his own decisions.  He ended our r/s -- but after my 10 months of NC, I came back as a friend, so he didn't lose me.  I like him, so he doesn't suffer any negative implications of how he dealt with our r/s.  He moved, but I stay in touch, & we get together -- he hasn't lost nearly as much as he might have because of that decision.

What I'd like is for him to take seriously the importance of what we have, and prioritize it more than he does.  I can't make him.  But I guess I can stop making up the difference if he doesn't do that.  If that's my approach, I guess I have to decide if I am going to explain that to him, or just do it.

[patientandclear]

This is completely within the "rules" you and he are operating under--he is allowed to pursue other romantic/intimate relationships. And maintain a highly intimate (but non-sexual) relationship with you at the same time.

Assume that it is true. Or that if it hasn't actually happened yet, it will, and soon. Or it will progress further.

How do you feel about this? Does it work for you or not?

  GK

P.S. Sorry to be throwing tough hard-ass questions at you. If you don't think they are apply, you need not answer.

Thanks, GK ... .no, your question totally applies.

Honestly, it feels bad.  It doesn't really work for me.  (To be very emotionally intimate with and available to him while he is all excited about & eager to pursue someone else like he once pursued me, when he has never explained why he was unwilling to try to make good on the connection he asked me for when we were dating.)

So -- where does that leave me?

Especially when the fact is my assumptions about what he is doing might be totally off ... .I agree he will eventually do this, but he spent the last year alone, and if I come at this from the perspective that he is already engaged with someone else, I may just be importing my own fears and anxieties from the past into the current dynamic.

[GreenMango]

P&C

I can hear the pain this is causing you.  I know I made my emotional state worse when in this by trying to work the problem from the outside (him) in (you) rather than inside out.

Couple of things (sorry this is short and not meant to be dismissive).

-check out repetition compulsion.  It may give some insight on why you are finding yourself at the same spot cyclically (I had found myself there a few times)

-it doesn't sound like you are feeling your feelings much.  Like you are denying them because of the past hurts and being hurt again.  Vulnerability is hard especially if you you are dealing with trauma.  It sounds like you don't feel secure in saying this isn't okay with me and I need different or more or whatever - regardless if what he will do.

Just some thoughts.  They could be totally irrelevant.

[peas]

Also, Patient, the reason I asked about the distance and where your ex is is because I had a long-distance r/s with my BPD guy, but I was close enough for weekend road trips to see him.

My biggest anxiety, and his, lay in me not being local. He piled on tremendous guilt that I could not be with him during the week. Weekends weren't enough. Most of our arguments stemmed from me living away even though I assured him I would return to him permanently when I had money behind me and put in some time at a new job, which took me away from our city. My physical distance was a big factor in our demise. His BPD and abandonment problems were magnified with the LDR. He resented me for taking the job and moving even though my survival depended on it (I was unemployed for a year and had no money, savings or health insurance). 

When he wasn't guilt tripping me, during the r/s ex would say all kinds of hopeful things about us getting married, maybe he would move to my city, or I would move back to his city. And he would tell me how much he missed me during the week and couldn't wait to see me, and he was committed to seeing things through, blah blah blah. But it was always up to me to keep the r/s going. I always had to drive to him. Seriously, I put in 90% and he put in 10%. I only got weekends with him, but then he started making plans with his buddies during my visits. So he chose to spend even less time with me. That was when things started to go downhill fast.

My point is LDRs are tough on the healthiest of r/s's. Consider that the person you are working with is already of the mindset that he is a free man and will do whatever he wants when he wants. And he has an attachment/abandonment disorder and you are 1,500 miles away. Mine couldn't handle it and pushed me away.

[patientandclear]

My point is LDRs are tough on the healthiest of r/s's. Consider that the person you are working with is already of the mindset that he is a free man and will do whatever he wants when he wants. And he has an attachment/abandonment disorder and you are 1,500 miles away. Mine couldn't handle it and pushed me away.

This finally made me laugh.  What am I thinking?

The irony is of course that in a weird way, it is exactly the geographic distance and the distance he has imposed with the "friends" label that has allowed him to maintain our relationship and to let it go to some places he does not go with girlfriends.  We've met each other's family, we've seen each other through some complex transitions, we've heard each other's stories evolve over time.  He doesn't do that.  With the women he sleeps with.  Ever.

Now he's started to bring me inside his questions about how he destroys relationships.

And that truth is what caused me to sort of suspend disbelief after he moved and go along with his sense that this was no big deal for us, he couldn't see what the downside would be, nothing would be lost. I think in a sense, this arrangement is the way he can be closest to me.

And that's why, Staying board friends, I don't know about asking for what I want.  Asking him to be closer.  I feel like we are still very much in process and making progress, because I am letting him be where he needs to be, and find his way back as he can.  Which is why we have the boundary that we do -- we are not being partners because it would be too messy and hard to navigate all the coming & going.  I do think we are heading in some kind of worthwhile, good direction. It's just that -- because when we are close, we are that close -- it feels like my heart might break on the way there.

[peas]

The irony is of course that in a weird way, it is exactly the distance and the distance he has imposed with the "friends" label that has allowed him to maintain our relationship and to let it go to some places he does not go with girlfriends. ... .I think in a sense, this arrangement is the way he can be closest to me.

You are probably onto something here. Reading that reminded that at one point my BPDex suggested that I stop staying with him on weekends, that I instead stay with a girlfriend and call him when I'm in town and we can date casually. I rejected this outright. Looking back on it, it was one of my boundaries and I'm glad I stuck to it. I would be damned if I was going to drive to his city only to stay with someone else and see if he wanted to spend a few hours with me.

His request bothered me because when he asked it we were already hot and heavy, to the tune of he had already started with some big promises for the future, talked about marriage and kids, and he insisted that his house was "our" house. We were a serious couple. So I couldn't suddenly change that mindset and start staying with friends and calling him to hang out whenever I was in town. I thought that was ludicrous. If he had requested early on in the r/s that we have that arrangement, that would have been a different story. 

[patientandclear]

The irony is of course that in a weird way, it is exactly the distance and the distance he has imposed with the "friends" label that has allowed him to maintain our relationship and to let it go to some places he does not go with girlfriends. ... .I think in a sense, this arrangement is the way he can be closest to me.

Reading that reminded that at one point my BPDex suggested that I stop staying with him on weekends, that I instead stay with a girlfriend and call him when I'm in town and we can date casually. I rejected this outright. Looking back on it, it was one of my boundaries and I'm glad I stuck to it. I would be damned if I was going to drive to his city only to stay with someone else and see if he wanted to spend a few hours with me.

His request bothered me because when he asked it we were already hot and heavy, to the tune of he had already started with some big promises for the future, talked about marriage and kids, and he insisted that his house was "our" house. We were a serious couple. So I couldn't suddenly change that mindset and start staying with friends and calling him to hang out whenever I was in town. I thought that was ludicrous. If he had requested early on in the r/s that we have that arrangement, that would have been a different story. 

Wow.  This is another one of those moments where it becomes clear we are all sort of living out the same script.

After my ex left me out of the blue and then spent two months secretly regretting it, though saying nothing to me about that ... .and I asked for NC, and he finally said enough about how hard this had been for him that I demanded to talk, because it seemed we were totally missing each other ... .he ended up asking if we could have a "baby steps" relationship, where we just got to know each other.  It sounded like this would entail no formal definition of a r/s, not saying we loved each other, not necessarily having sex.  I told him I couldn't do that -- to me, if we were going to back out of our hot & heavy (sex/talk of marriage/this is the most important thing ever to happen to human beings sorta thing) r/s, we needed to be completely out -- not sort of in, sort of out, which I felt would be gutting on a daily basis, as I constantly waited to see what my fate would be that day.

I've regretted that decision so many times since.  I think it was the only way he could try to keep our closeness ... .he couldn't adhere to the formal expectations but he didn't want to cut off our connection either, and he was looking for a way forward.  I didn't realize at the time that this was, as someone on this board once said so aptly, such a "limited time offer."  I turned that down & that was pretty much it -- there were no further negotiations to be had, from his perspective.  It was on to the next woman.

[peas]

it was the only way he could try to keep our closeness ... .he couldn't adhere to the formal expectations but he didn't want to cut off our connection either, and he was looking for a way forward.

And that's not fair to us.

I also wondered if I had gone through with my ex'es baby steps request after all the idealization and talk of being a couple (if I had a dollar for every time he said I was "the one"... .) whether that would have let him digest the r/s at his pace and maybe it would have been a good solution for us to build a better r/s. But I couldn't fathom dating him casually, which would have given him an out to explore other dating opportunities, and hope he would stick with me. Especially because I wasn't local. I was making a big investment by spending the gas money and time, and above all, emotion, to be with him on weekends and I wanted to protect my investment.

I also would have been okay if he broke it off with me when he started having doubts or whatever makes pwBPD pull away. But he didn't. Like you, I was of the attitude that I needed to be in or out, not in between.

When he started with the big promises and forever talk, which I never forced, I took him seriously and expected him to be held accountable. That's probably what made him back off.

I know pwBPD are irrational and impulsive and we try to forgive them for their decisions or rationalize why they do what they do. But always follow their actions. This guy chose to remove himself from your area.

[patientandclear]

I also wondered if I had gone through with my ex'es baby steps request after all the idealization and talk of being a couple (if I had a dollar for every time he said I was "the one"... .) whether that would have let him digest the r/s at his pace and maybe it would have been a good solution for us to build a better r/s. But I couldn't fathom dating him casually, which would have given him an out to explore other dating opportunities, and hope he would stick with me.

Yes.  My gut reaction was that the "somewhere in between," baby steps, arrangement, would have left me a quivering mass of jello. As a member here wrote once, it would be the transition from "the adored to the adoring," where I knew I wanted him, and I would wake up every day to find out if he wanted me, and how much.  It would have wrecked the equality we'd experienced at the outset.

... .You're right about paying attention to his concrete choices.  His sudden decision to leave here was wrenching for me.  Because, as I wrote him at the time, there was something lost in the process -- people who know and love him here, including me.  He was furious that I said that, so much so that he didn't write back for 10 weeks, maybe never would have had I not reached out again.  I was not supposed to question or make him feel bad about his strategies for making himself feel better.  Before he left, we'd been getting progressively closer, in a really cool and interesting process, but it was as if all that was nothing stacked up against the whole wide world.  Nice.

I've got to finally admit, I cannot compete against the whole wide world.  There will always be something possibly more compelling out there, even more compelling than our wonderful, rich, forged-through-difficulty, mulit-layered, loving relationship. So, I guess, he gets to sabotage that with all the many nuanced forms of leaving he has found, and I cannot protect us from that.

This just makes me incredibly sad.  It is hard to believe there is no alternative than to just back up & let go.  But it doesn't seem that there is.

[peas]

Sabotage is pwBPD modus operandi.

About letting go, yes, it's real difficult. I held on tight and tried to control the situation with my ex and it left me hurt and exhausted. And in the end it still left me without him. He detached and broke up with me despite my efforts.

And, I have second-guessed my move for the job every day. My big "if only" that haunts me is If Only I Stayed We'd Be Together. Me leaving was an enormous challenge.

You, or I, cannot compete against bigger forces that we have zero control over. We'll just get burned out and more hurt. I have decided that if this guy and I are meant to be together, we'll be together, but it will be because fate allowed it. That's how we met. I wasn't supposed to meet someone when I met him. My mind was elsewhere and I avoided dating to focus on my job search. Then he shows up out of nowhere and we hit it off and we're both immediately smitten. Both of us were like: Where have you been all my life? Then I get the job offer out of town  :'(

Let things be. You can only do so much with a pwBPD, or anybody, you want in your life. 

[123Phoebe]

After my ex left me out of the blue and then spent two months secretly regretting it, though saying nothing to me about that ... .and I asked for NC, and he finally said enough about how hard this had been for him that I demanded to talk, because it seemed we were totally missing each other ... .he ended up asking if we could have a "baby steps" relationship, where we just got to know each other.  It sounded like this would entail no formal definition of a r/s, not saying we loved each other, not necessarily having sex.  I told him I couldn't do that -- to me, if we were going to back out of our hot & heavy (sex/talk of marriage/this is the most important thing ever to happen to human beings sorta thing) r/s, we needed to be completely out -- not sort of in, sort of out, which I felt would be gutting on a daily basis, as I constantly waited to see what my fate would be that day.

I've regretted that decision so many times since.  I think it was the only way he could try to keep our closeness ... .he couldn't adhere to the formal expectations but he didn't want to cut off our connection either, and he was looking for a way forward.  I didn't realize at the time that this was, as someone on this board once said so aptly, such a "limited time offer."  I turned that down & that was pretty much it -- there were no further negotiations to be had, from his perspective.  It was on to the next woman.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you keep playing out the same relationship scenario with him.  You want to be all in or all out, even though what is actually happening is anything but, because you're longing for more.  'Longing for more' defines this relationship, without actually doing anything differently than what was done before.  It's safe.  It's fantasy based.

"Baby steps" do help us get to know people.  One of the defining factors of a BPD relationship is the instant connection and love-bombing.  We start at the end-- We love each other!  Heck, we don't even know these people we're claiming to want to spend the rest of our lives with   If only they'd do this or that or this other thing... .  Why  Why   Why don't they?  Never mind us.

This guy got under your skin, P&C.  What you have is precisely what you feared-- feeling gutted on a daily basis as you constantly wait to see what your fate will be on any given day.  This is your relationship. 

Our thoughts and fears manifest themselves in strange ways... . 

"Change your perceptions and you change your life!  Nothing changes without changes" (Thanks UfN for getting that point across)

What do you want?  Is it realistic?  How can you find out?

[patientandclear]

Phoebe, I totally agree, and that is really insightful -- that I am exactly where I didn't want to be -- figuring out my fate vis a vis this relationship every day.

I have nothing against baby steps as a way to begin a r/s, it's just that when this was proposed, it involved stepping back into uncertainty but in some sort of r/s, when I'd just been dropped on my head out of nowhere after being told I was safe and completely loved.  I didn't know anything about BPD and I didn't understand that this might be the only way to proceed in a healthy way to rebuild the r/s.  I thought I needed to hold out for a commitment.  I also thought that we could get to know each other as friends over time while he explored these issues in therapy, & then we could come back together if that made sense.  I didn't realize he wouldn't be able to be alone for even a few weeks, and would immediately go try to resume things with his exgf.

If I had it to do over again I might say yes to that baby steps offer, except that then, I didn't have the framework to understand what was going on the tools to deal with it, so maybe it would have been the disaster I anticipated, in which I felt constantly rejected & just fell apart.  But I think saying no made him feel rejected in a way we still haven't recovered from.  I think it led him to tell me, when we reconnected last year, that he didn't want to be more than friends -- it was too painful then last time around.

So what I want?  I want, I think, what happened for you.  I want him to just organically turn to me in the course of our being together "as friends" and make some gesture indicating he wants to come back across this line in the sand.

It feels incredibly hard for me to venture that and not just wait passively for him to make some gesture.  He's said explicitly several times that he only wants to be friends.  He's moved.  He may be involved with someone else.  He's framed any comments I've made about a deeper bond between us in the past year as me not respecting his decision.  Even though with many of his own actions, he deepens that bond and acts as though we are each others' person. People.

Phoebe, you've said things that make sense to me about openness, removing barriers to intimacy, being yourself.  I feel I have been except I haven't shared with him my hopes that we might come back together.  You've also said lots about not chasing, waiting for him to show what he wanted, needing to know that he wanted you.  I've taken that approach.  We have taken important steps using that approach.  But ... .he said this thing when we were fighting this spring about his decision to leave our city, when I commented that I'd never build something only to dismantle it.  He said "we are on different planets."  Which I've taken to mean that he thinks I did build something (with him) only to dismantle it.  Somehow I'm the one that failed us or prevented us from being together.  And it seems like he feels it's too late.

So under all those circumstances, is what I want realistic?

[123Phoebe]

I have nothing against baby steps as a way to begin a r/s, it's just that when this was proposed, it involved stepping back into uncertainty but in some sort of r/s, when I'd just been dropped on my head out of nowhere after being told I was safe and completely loved.  I didn't know anything about BPD

If I had it to do over again I might say yes to that baby steps offer, except that then, I didn't have the framework to understand what was going on the tools to deal with it

So under all those circumstances, is what I want realistic?

What if your relationship was to begin today?  Or starting with the next communication between the two of you?

How would your behavior change, if say... .You met online seeking friendship/possibly more (in your profiles)?  You're just starting to get to know each other... .

As a challenge to yourself, can you let the past go and pretend you just met him?

[peas]

He said "we are on different planets."

I got the same message. One way my ex justified (lessened the pain for himself?) letting go was "we're just too opposite." It hurts to hear that from them because weeks or months prior you were perfect. 

But since this mental problem makes people work backwards, where it's infatuation up front then a chilling effect later, maybe my ex did get to know me and he felt we weren't compatible. But really, I don't believe that because he was attracted to my differences. I think they try to grasp at anything to convince themselves they are better off without us when the decided they are done. Also, he and I were actually more alike than different.

[Grey Kitty]

Honestly, it feels bad.  It doesn't really work for me.  (To be very emotionally intimate with and available to him while he is all excited about & eager to pursue someone else like he once pursued me, when he has never explained why he was unwilling to try to make good on the connection he asked me for when we were dating.)

So -- where does that leave me?

I'm afraid it leaves you feeling crappy, and I'm seeing it right now. 

I'm wondering if it is time for you to re-negotiate the terms of being "friends" with him: Given your history and current (or at least recent) intimacy, perhaps this friendship should include him at least telling you if he is seriously dating (or sleeping with) another woman, and should include you telling him the same if you start seriously dating another guy.

Given what you have said, I wouldn't be surprised if this resulted in him disappearing for a few days/weeks/months, rather than agreeing.

So what I want?  I want, I think, what happened for you.  I want him to just organically turn to me in the course of our being together "as friends" and make some gesture indicating he wants to come back across this line in the sand.

... .

So under all those circumstances, is what I want realistic?

It doesn't match your history with him very well. Based on that I'd guess that if he does step farther across the line in the sand to be close to you, he'll get scared and run away again after he does it.

I gotta say... .the story I hear from Phoebe is one of the changes she made for herself... .and that her pwBPD decided to rise to the occasion when she made her changes.

Can you find a way to be happy and satisfied with your life while expecting nothing from him? What changes would you have to make for this to be possible?

[patientandclear]

I'm wondering if it is time for you to re-negotiate the terms of being "friends" with him: Given your history and current (or at least recent) intimacy, perhaps this friendship should include him at least telling you if he is seriously dating (or sleeping with) another woman, and should include you telling him the same if you start seriously dating another guy.

Given what you have said, I wouldn't be surprised if this resulted in him disappearing for a few days/weeks/months, rather than agreeing.

It seems to me like I should just adjust my behavior with him based on how it makes me feel that he withdraws like this after being so intimate.  Regardless of the reason for the withdrawal.  Does that make sense? I know he could date someone else.  I know he withdraws.  Those two things together should provide me all the information I need about keeping myself emotionally safe.  I think it means not going all the way to the edge of the cliff with him each time he wants to take me there ... .not allowing the intimacy we have been indulging in, without some other terms.  If he wants the intimacy, we can discuss why I can't go there on the current terms.

It seems weird to me to say "I'll be this kind of friend unless you are dating someone, in which case, it all changes."

It doesn't match your history with him very well. Based on that I'd guess that if he does step farther across the line in the sand to be close to you, he'll get scared and run away again after he does it.

Probably right.  He does step across the line in various ways.  Then he does get scared and run away again.  I think he is possibly more extreme in his aversion to sustained closeness than even some other pwBPD on this board.  He has zero, exactly zero, experience remaining friendly and close with a woman he is romantically/sexually involved with for more than a couple of weeks.  Our r/s is new territory and when I am honest with myself about what I've observed, it terrifies him to engage with me in person and to come close to physical contact.  So what I want may not be realistic.  Torturing myself as though it is some sort of verdict on me that he does not do this -- which is what I've been doing -- is really pointless.

I gotta say... .the story I hear from Phoebe is one of the changes she made for herself... .and that her pwBPD decided to rise to the occasion when she made her changes.

Can you find a way to be happy and satisfied with your life while expecting nothing from him? What changes would you have to make for this to be possible?

Actually, my life is satisfying apart from him, and I've pretty much dealt with him in this way for the past year.  I think it's why our r/s is relatively stable and successful on its own terms.  The problem is the longing.  Being this close to someone for such a protracted period without reaching across that line is just a very difficult assignment.  It feels unnatural and like something is going wrong.

[KateCat]

He has zero, exactly zero, experience remaining friendly and close with a woman he is romantically/sexually involved with for more than a couple of weeks. 

Patient: I think I really don't understand what you've related about your fellow's past. Wasn't he once married and doesn't he have adult children? Is he really an enfant-sauvage Into the Wilderness kind of guy, or is he something else?

[patientandclear]

He has zero, exactly zero, experience remaining friendly and close with a woman he is romantically/sexually involved with for more than a couple of weeks. 

Patient: I think I really don't understand what you've related about your fellow's past. Wasn't he once married and doesn't he have adult children? Is he really an enfant-sauvage Into the Wilderness kind of guy, or is he something else?

KC -- I always love your posts   Yes, enfant-sauvage is him (loves Into the Wilderness, you are remembering correctly).  He married a woman 8 years older than he when he was in his early 20s when she got pregnant when they didn't think she could.  Stayed in the marriage out of, I think, a rigid sense of duty that flows from his very religious upbringing, till kids were in their early teens.  Was super unhappy and I am certain made his wife super unhappy.

Ever since he left, 15 years ago now, he's had a series of intense, very brief affairs with women whom he leaves suddenly for odd reasons, and doesn't stay close to.  For the first 10 years, that was interspersed with a r/s he kept leaving & coming back to, with a woman whose name he now (sort of joking, sort of not) refuses to speak.  He'd break up with her, have a brief affair, come back to her.  They split for good 5 years ago.

I believe I am the first woman he's been involved with with whom he has gone on to have a close friendship (or any kind of friendship).  Also, last year was the first time he's been alone (without a partner, not dating) since his marriage.

[KateCat]

Oh my, that seems a very unusual life story. No wonder you are puzzled.

And, in view of this history, he must be capable of real consistency in some areas of his life, right? If not, I can't quite picture how, by the age of 50, he would have been able to satisfy his obligations to his children and been able also to put aside enough money to begin to practice a freer lifestyle.

It sounds as though he assumed the responsibilities of adulthood pretty early, at least for our society. And maybe he is living his deferred adolescence now?