To call or not to call?

[Bonus mom]

Last night my husband asked me a question about appropriate contact with our BPD daughter, and I wasn't able to answer; So I'll throw the question out to you for some guidance and advice.

Our 17-year-old daughter left our home to live full-time with her bio mom just over a month ago.  Our requirements for her to return living with us, was that she had to be in DBT therapy and to keep us updated weekly on her appointments and progress etc.  She informed my husband last week when they had breakfast together that she had no intention of doing any therapy whatsoever. 

We are disappointed that's her choice, but we respect that it is in fact her choice.

His question was around whether or not he should be contacting her to get together.  I think it's a valid concern, because we might just be tiptoeing over into the land of enabling. 

When she left over a month ago she only informed us by text message.  Since then, he has met with her twice, both times initiated by her to have breakfast.  Each time he left her he told her to get in touch when she'd like to see him again.  She responded last week that he could contact her as well.  And so he did, and set up a breakfast appointment for this morning.

The niggling thought at the back of our brains?  Since she refuses to have any therapy, and she refuses to have anything to do with anyone else in the house except her dad, are we just enabling her by letting her have the "treats" which would be the visits with her dad, without her having to deal with any of the "work?"   If he keeps reaching out to her, is he just feeding her needs?   Does she need to be the one who makes the contact for any of this to actually be positively impacting her? (As in, if there's a little pain for her it makes it a more meaningful gain?)

I sense a pattern beginning here, where she will get to have all the pleasantries of breakfasts with her dad, without actually having to do anything to improve herself or to grow.  It feels like she's trying to have the best of both worlds - Total freedom to come and go as she pleases at bio mom's house, and still having a relationship with her dad but without any rules to have to be concerned with.

We would love to hear your thoughts on this!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Skip]

This is really a good question and I look forward to reading the responses here.

I suppose that you are thinking that if there are consequences for her actions (being cut off), she will act and get therapy.  By having breakfast with her there are no consequence to her actions.  

Do I have this more or less right?

People seek mental health help when there is a crisis or clear need and you may be able to affect crisis and drive her to therapy. Is this what you want to do?  Obviously not.

So the hope is really that she will see the cost of not going to therapy and decide that if she wants to see her dad, she needs to go. This process might work for shoplifting or smoking pot or getting parking tickets, but will it work for seeking emotional reprogramming?

My guess is that she is hearing this as "I'm defective and I have to get brain treatment to be loved and be your daughter".  I'd turn that offer down too.

I'd be careful about severing the relationship right now.  Maybe a better tactic is that we love you and we want to solve our problems - why don't we go to a family therapists so we all can be heard and he can help us sort this out.  Be a role model.  Talk about how you are will to hear about how you can do better - is she willing to do the same?  :)o this in a way that it feel like her idea.  And tell her you love her - it doesn't hinge on this and she can turn it down.

Then leave it up to her to set up the breakfasts.

Re: To call or not to call? Call. Change the offer.

OK, one members thoughts.  

[Bonus mom]

Hi Skip,

Okay I'll clarify a little bit: My desire is not that we cut her off in order to drive her into therapy, if she doesn't go to therapy, then she doesn't go to therapy - that's her decision.  I know perfectly well that an unwilling person in therapy often gets you into a worse position than when you started!  The only boundary we set on that requirement, is that she won't be able to actually live with us without DBT.

The concern is, where is that line between enabling her and supporting her?  I'll try to find the right words to articulate the feeling we have about this.

If my husband keeps reaching out to her to have breakfast etc., with him, won't he be feeding her neediness for attention? The whole reason that she left us in the first place was to try to provoke an immediate, angry response from us. That didn't happen, my husband simply told her we love you and hope you come back sometime.  She was stunned.

She changed her tactics then, at first tried to play the victim with him at their first meeting and then she tried to show how grown-up she is at the last meeting.  I'm not sure which personality she put forward today, but I'll comment later when I see my husband.

It kind of seems almost like a child saying "I don't like that teacher she's not nice to me" and then everyone goes out of their way to get her a new teacher. That doesn't seem like it's the right way to handle the situation.  Shouldn't we be teaching her how to cope with the "teacher" she has?  Not pretending that nothing actually happened?

We are definitely perplexed.

[Bonus mom]

And thank you for your comments by the way - I'm just trying to wrap my head around all of this.

[qcarolr]

Our 17-year-old daughter left our home to live full-time with her bio mom just over a month ago.  Our requirements for her to return living with us, was that she had to be in DBT therapy and to keep us updated weekly on her appointments and progress etc.  She informed my husband last week when they had breakfast together that she had no intention of doing any therapy whatsoever. 



We are disappointed that's her choice, but we respect that it is in fact her choice.

His question was around whether or not he should be contacting her to get together.  I think it's a valid concern, because we might just be tiptoeing over into the land of enabling. 

Have you really accepted that this is the choice she has made? That she is not asking to come back to live with you? Is she asking for anything else from you other than to meet her and show you care - that you can give love without strings attached?

I find this unconditional love very very hard when my beliefs are that my BPDDD27 is not making the 'good choices' that I want her to make. It is up to me to find radical acceptance that she is in control of herself. My DD keeps reaching out to me for contact, to be considered 'part of the family', even when there are limits to her contact in our home. I struggle to let go of my expectations of her being connected to my contact with her. This feeds such a negative loop within our relationship.

Is this what Skip is getting at?

I'd be careful about severing the relationship right now.  Maybe a better tactic is that we love you and we want to solve our problems - why don't we go to a family therapists so we all can be heard and he can help us sort this out.  Be a role model.  Talk about how you are will to hear about how you can do better - is she willing to do the same?  Do this in a way that it feel like her idea.  And tell her you love her - it doesn't hinge on this and she can turn it down.

Then leave it up to her to set up the breakfasts.

Re: To call or not to call? Call. Change the offer.

[mom2bkl]

Good morning:) This is a post that is so interesting to me. It is a question I've had many times. Our BPD daughter has been out of the house for about three months now. It has been very interesting watching our interaction through that time and yes I am finding more commonly she reaches out to us than we to her. I do find however that short visits a neutral territory are often some of the most special. I find if she comes here that almost immediately she falls into her old pattern even if it's just for the day. By the evening I can't wait for her to get back to her boyfriends house. But reaching out to her for coffee or lunch date has really proven to better our relationship and our communication. I'm able to validate her when it is in short periods. I encourage you to continue finding your own boundaries and with that balancing time with your daughter I think you will be thankful that you did.

[twojaybirds]

mom2bkl has described my relationship with my 19dd for the past year and a half.  I let her take the lead and find solace if I don't hear from her for a while.  I might do I quick check in but have certainly found short validating visits are the best and keep the relationship alive.

[Bonus mom]

Thanks everyone.  My husband and I talked a little more tonight, and with a little research and guidance into enabling versus helping, we were able to work our way around to a solution.

My question was always about enabling even though I see I didn't explain very well.  The more we talked about helping versus enabling in our particular situation, the easier it was to see the real issue we have.

You see, just before she left our house, when things were at their worst, our daughter would spend all her time in her bedroom.  She wouldn't join us for anything, unless she was specifically called to do so.  Even as dinner was being prepared and everyone gathered around the dining table (because you can smell and hear the dinner being prepared and it's time for dinner) she would wait until she was called down specifically by her dad.  Every day. Day in, day out. There were days when we didn't even know she was in the house.  She would then complain about how hurt she was that we didn't know she was in the house. She felt we should've known she was there, we should call her down to join us for dinner, we shouldn't go out and do things fun without her even if we don't know where she is or if she's at work.  She was looking for mind readers.

We did address this behaviour with her, setting boundaries about keeping us informed and accepting responsibility for her participation (or lack thereof) and we stuck with them. And coincidentally, it was those boundaries that led her to opt to leave.

So, when she turned the tables last week, and suggested that her dad should contact her for them to get together, that really seemed wrong to us but it took time to figure out why.  Because we had already been enabling her all those years, and especially these last few months, by constantly being the ones to reach out and pull her back to us!  She would pull away more and more, in search of us trying to pull her back more and more.  She's been testing us, trying to see if we really do love her.  

If "enabling" is defined as doing things for her that she should do for herself, or needs to learn how to do herself, then we need to allow her to learn how to have healthy contact with us.  We feel that sending the occasional text message saying "how's it going" and "we love you" would be appropriate, but to do anything beyond that could be construed as us trying to pull her back. Which is what she wants. Which is us inadvertently enabling her.

I should also mention that during one of her conversations with my husband, she triumphantly said "since I've been away from you I've seen my aunts twice in the past two weeks!"  They, upon hearing that she wasn't living with us any longer, have gone out of their way to be in touch with her. She did not contact them, nor has she ever been stopped from contacting them. (We are all close.)  So this isn't a pattern that we see only between us and our daughter, it's happening with others as well.

It was quite a relief tonight when we had this "aha" moment.  And it's nice that we can talk about this so openly, and eventually get to the root of every issue.  

Still curious to hear how other people deal with their enabling concerns?  

[six]

HI BonusMom

Reading your thread, it seems that your daughter has a strong need to feel wanted (like all of our kids) and she expresses it by wanting your family to be the ones to make contact with her and to approach her and express the desire to be with her.  Is it enabling her to try to fulfill this need?  I am not sure why.  I understand why you set a boundary that she must attend therapy to live at home.  but why should this boundary affect meeting her dad for breakfast?  to me, those are two separate things.

Also, for a 17yr old girl to have left home and be living with her biomom, is painful.  She "knows" that you don't really want her.  She is already missing out on a lot of the "treats" of being with your family.  Just having breakfast with dad every few weeks is not a replacement for all the quality time that she is missing. 

I would use every opportunity to express to her that she is loved and missed.  you can still keep the boundary in place that you have set regarding her living in your home.  but why not send texts and make calls that express, we really miss you and wish we could spend more time with you. 

my guess is that she interprets this period of time as, "I moved out of the house and nobody really cared nobody missed me and nobody tried to spend time with me.  Dad only got together with me if I initiated it bec he didn't really care if he saw me or not. my aunts cared about me more than my parents do"  I would try to focus on the underlying pain, i.e. her belief that nobody really wants her, instead of the technical aspect of who initiates the meetings

[Thursday]

six,

I anticipate BonusMoms answer to confirm this but I think you hit the nail on the head.

Thursday

[Bonus mom]

my guess is that she interprets this period of time as, "I moved out of the house and nobody really cared nobody missed me and nobody tried to spend time with me.  Dad only got together with me if I initiated it bec he didn't really care if he saw me or not. my aunts cared about me more than my parents do"

YES!



That is EXACTLY it!

(Although, I see I'm still not explaining well, based on some comments here, that we are not not in touch with her.)

Telling her she is loved, and that she is wanted has never been the problem.  And meeting her for breakfast isn't the problem. Talking to her, seeing her, messaging her, telling her we care... .All not a problem.

(It's sad though, that she currently doesn't see the value of therapy.  I'm confident it would help her break this cycle you so perfectly encapsulated in a few short sentences, six.)

So we hope someday she'll want to feel better and then act on that desire.  Until then, she'll continue to hear from us that she's loved and we want to know what's happening in her life if she cares to share with us.  And we'll encourage her to learn how to reach out to people she loves by asking them to participate in her life when she wants or needs them. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Bonus mom]

... .And for anyone who cares to read up, here is one of the better references I have found to explain enabling vs supporting.  I think it really clarifies in plain language how easy it is to enable when you mean to help, and how damaging it can be without ever intending to harm.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95263.0;

When we enable people (addicts, children, friends or family) we prevent them from experiencing the consequences of their own actions. We are also preventing them from realizing they have a problem and depriving them of fully reaching their own potential. Our efforts to help them wind up contributing to them staying sick and dependent on us. The relationship gets worse as both people respond in more and more unhealthy behavior.

Those words really resonate with me.

Of course, it is easy to see how the Rescuer can become the primary enabler for an addict or alcoholic, but she can also become the primary enablers for the Big Baby, the Victim or the Runaway. Enabling is what the Rescuer does. The definition of enabling here is the unconscious encouragement of another's dis-ability. Not another's disability, but another's dis-ability. In other words, whatever it is that the other person is refusing to do for him or herself, that's exactly what the Rescuer will do. This encourages the other person to continue to refuse to do it for him or herself.

[qcarolr]

Bonus Mom

This last post really hits home for me - well really the whole boundary around supporting her to be responsibility for her side of the relationship by the limits on your initiating contacts with her.

In other words, whatever it is that the other person is refusing to do for him or herself, that's exactly what the Rescuer will do. This encourages the other person to continue to refuse to do it for him or herself.

With my DD27 being in jail, there is no choice since I cannot contact her. I have chosen not to visit her, only accept one call per day.

My suggestion to all her complaints are: Ask for what you need.  She has to do this for herself in jail - they do not accept outside influence (except for me with understanding what happened to some commissary money that DD was confused about - this is supporting her 'disablity' and not creating 'dis-ability'. She does have non-verbal LD that limits her math abilities. Yet, she is figuring this out too. She is explaining why she needs a certain amount each week in her commissary account.

There are other examples of how her time in jail has helped dh and I to stop enabling her  in our weak, perceived moments of compassion. Figuring this out is tough.

qcr

[six]

 

(It's sad though, that she currently doesn't see the value of therapy.  I'm confident it would help her break this cycle you so perfectly encapsulated in a few short sentences, six.) [/quote]
I agree with you that therapy will be a big help for her when she decides to get it.  MY BPDs26 has recently begun therapy and I see that it is helping him work thru his patterns with us. 

In our case, my son insists that he was thrown out of the house when he was a teenager.  this has resulted in years of his believing that we loved the other children in the family (he is the oldest of 6) and basically didn't care about him

almost every argument contains a reference to the child abuse that we perpetrated when we threw him out.  (we never did it but we threatened it a few times when he got out of control)

what I really wish looking back on all these years was that I had understood what was behind all of his outrageous behavior.  I wish I had communicated to him more effectively that he was a beloved son and that I wanted him in our home, even though I was frustrated with how he was  behaving.