Basic lack of understanding...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So I've been lurking here for a couple of months. I've found almost everything I've read incredibly useful - taken some of it with a grain of salt, and some on as mantra. I ended relationship with my uBPDexgf back in April, attempted to make it work only to reveal lies, cheating, more lies about the lies... .you know the deal.

One thing I guess I've wanted validation on, and one of the things that still makes me feel like a crazy person these days, is just a fundamental lack of understanding about how interpersonal relationships work that I experienced with my exgf.

She defined herself as an introvert, and was aware that she had trouble making friends, but she always needed to categorize people. When she met someone new, she would deliberately express a desire to spend time with them, and when they didn't reciprocate, she'd paint them black. Even with people I knew she would say things like 'if they're not going to put in the effort, then I'd rather not waste my time', speaking about someone who worked full time, went to school full time and was planning their own wedding. It was like she didn't understand that people had lives outside of meeting her needs.

When it came to our relationship, she was a wonderful person when we were broken up. She would be easy to hang out with, but the second there was anything romantic going on, she flipped incredibly quickly. We processed a lot about our relationship and the 'philosophy' of her relationship was thus: if she felt sexy and desired, felt lust from me and had her sexual needs met, then she would be willing to spend time with me, doing normal couple things. Countless times I invited her to spend time with friends, and the answer was always no. Countless times my friends invited us (as a couple) to come over for dinner, play board games and other activities. Over 2 years, she went 3 times, claiming that she didn't want to go if she wasn't 'specifically invited', like we both had to be invited separately. She even refused to come to my housewarming party simply because I wanted to play board games. I asked her to go running, on romantic weekends away, hang out with her friends, try new restaurants, visit her friends in other cities. Every time she said no, and the last discussion we had on the topic, she basically said that the reason she said no was because she didn't feel sexually desired by me.

Overall, it just seemed that she had no understanding of the aspects of natural give and take in a human relationship, that you put your best effort forward selflessly and expect the other person to do the same, with little to no expectations of each other, just a general appreciation for time spent together. For her, it was like most people and relationships were treated as transactional, like time spent and effort given was something you kept score about and there were prerequisites for her doing anything, all based on her needs, and if people had other stuff going on in their lives, they were useless to her.

The ideas of 'if you're happy, I'm happy' and being excited to hear about others' interests didn't seem to compute either. She constantly put down my interests, and told me that she found most people boring, which is why she didn't have many friends.

These are the things I've been ruminating about, the things that have been making me doubt whether my expectations of a relationship were unrealistic. So many times I heard 'we just didn't work out' and 'we're incompatible', so I wonder if this was just the case. Were our philosophies of a relationships so different that it simply didn't work, or was she actually a pwBPD? I even find myself asking if this philosophy of a relationship is something that is valid or would lead to happiness. I felt like I did everything I could to encourage a healthy relationship... .right?

[peterparker]

So I've been lurking here for a couple of months. I've found almost everything I've read incredibly useful - taken some of it with a grain of salt, and some on as mantra. I ended relationship with my uBPDexgf back in April, attempted to make it work only to reveal lies, cheating, more lies about the lies... .you know the deal.

One thing I guess I've wanted validation on, and one of the things that still makes me feel like a crazy person these days, is just a fundamental lack of understanding about how interpersonal relationships work that I experienced with my exgf.

She defined herself as an introvert, and was aware that she had trouble making friends, but she always needed to categorize people. When she met someone new, she would deliberately express a desire to spend time with them, and when they didn't reciprocate, she'd paint them black. Even with people I knew she would say things like 'if they're not going to put in the effort, then I'd rather not waste my time', speaking about someone who worked full time, went to school full time and was planning their own wedding. It was like she didn't understand that people had lives outside of meeting her needs.

When it came to our relationship, she was a wonderful person when we were broken up. She would be easy to hang out with, but the second there was anything romantic going on, she flipped incredibly quickly. We processed a lot about our relationship and the 'philosophy' of her relationship was thus: if she felt sexy and desired, felt lust from me and had her sexual needs met, then she would be willing to spend time with me, doing normal couple things. Countless times I invited her to spend time with friends, and the answer was always no. Countless times my friends invited us (as a couple) to come over for dinner, play board games and other activities. Over 2 years, she went 3 times, claiming that she didn't want to go if she wasn't 'specifically invited', like we both had to be invited separately. She even refused to come to my housewarming party simply because I wanted to play board games. I asked her to go running, on romantic weekends away, hang out with her friends, try new restaurants, visit her friends in other cities. Every time she said no, and the last discussion we had on the topic, she basically said that the reason she said no was because she didn't feel sexually desired by me.

Overall, it just seemed that she had no understanding of the aspects of natural give and take in a human relationship, that you put your best effort forward selflessly and expect the other person to do the same, with little to no expectations of each other, just a general appreciation for time spent together. For her, it was like most people and relationships were treated as transactional, like time spent and effort given was something you kept score about and there were prerequisites for her doing anything, all based on her needs, and if people had other stuff going on in their lives, they were useless to her.

The ideas of 'if you're happy, I'm happy' and being excited to hear about others' interests didn't seem to compute either. She constantly put down my interests, and told me that she found most people boring, which is why she didn't have many friends.

These are the things I've been ruminating about, the things that have been making me doubt whether my expectations of a relationship were unrealistic. So many times I heard 'we just didn't work out' and 'we're incompatible', so I wonder if this was just the case. Were our philosophies of a relationships so different that it simply didn't work, or was she actually a pwBPD? I even find myself asking if this philosophy of a relationship is something that is valid or would lead to happiness. I felt like I did everything I could to encourage a healthy relationship... .right?

[Ironmanrises]

So I've been lurking here for a couple of months. I've found almost everything I've read incredibly useful - taken some of it with a grain of salt, and some on as mantra. I ended relationship with my uBPDexgf back in April, attempted to make it work only to reveal lies, cheating, more lies about the lies... .you know the deal.

One thing I guess I've wanted validation on, and one of the things that still makes me feel like a crazy person these days, is just a fundamental lack of understanding about how interpersonal relationships work that I experienced with my exgf.

She defined herself as an introvert, and was aware that she had trouble making friends, but she always needed to categorize people. When she met someone new, she would deliberately express a desire to spend time with them, and when they didn't reciprocate, she'd paint them black. Even with people I knew she would say things like 'if they're not going to put in the effort, then I'd rather not waste my time', speaking about someone who worked full time, went to school full time and was planning their own wedding. It was like she didn't understand that people had lives outside of meeting her needs.

When it came to our relationship, she was a wonderful person when we were broken up. She would be easy to hang out with, but the second there was anything romantic going on, she flipped incredibly quickly. We processed a lot about our relationship and the 'philosophy' of her relationship was thus: if she felt sexy and desired, felt lust from me and had her sexual needs met, then she would be willing to spend time with me, doing normal couple things. Countless times I invited her to spend time with friends, and the answer was always no. Countless times my friends invited us (as a couple) to come over for dinner, play board games and other activities. Over 2 years, she went 3 times, claiming that she didn't want to go if she wasn't 'specifically invited', like we both had to be invited separately. She even refused to come to my housewarming party simply because I wanted to play board games. I asked her to go running, on romantic weekends away, hang out with her friends, try new restaurants, visit her friends in other cities. Every time she said no, and the last discussion we had on the topic, she basically said that the reason she said no was because she didn't feel sexually desired by me.

Overall, it just seemed that she had no understanding of the aspects of natural give and take in a human relationship, that you put your best effort forward selflessly and expect the other person to do the same, with little to no expectations of each other, just a general appreciation for time spent together. For her, it was like most people and relationships were treated as transactional, like time spent and effort given was something you kept score about and there were prerequisites for her doing anything, all based on her needs, and if people had other stuff going on in their lives, they were useless to her.

The ideas of 'if you're happy, I'm happy' and being excited to hear about others' interests didn't seem to compute either. She constantly put down my interests, and told me that she found most people boring, which is why she didn't have many friends.

These are the things I've been ruminating about, the things that have been making me doubt whether my expectations of a relationship were unrealistic. So many times I heard 'we just didn't work out' and 'we're incompatible', so I wonder if this was just the case. Were our philosophies of a relationships so different that it simply didn't work, or was she actually a pwBPD? I even find myself asking if this philosophy of a relationship is something that is valid or would lead to happiness. I felt like I did everything I could to encourage a healthy relationship... .right?

In bold.

Do the accounts on here... .

Resonate with you... .?

Because if they do... .

Then it is frighteningly... .

The latter.

[Lady31]

This is what I think - simple answer - she is very insecure & sensitive to rejection because of that.

- She's an "introvert" because she is afraid of getting close to people because she is insecure and scared of rejection.

- With the people who "didn't reciprocate" - she shut that down quickly because she is so sensitive to rejection.  That is what she felt when they were too busy.

- Her saying no to several attempts to hang out/do things and saying it was because she didn't feel sexually desired by you:  She is very insecure & sensitive to rejection so doing all these different things with you or you & friends felt overwhelming to her.  The fear of having to "measure up", fit in, whatever - she felt threatened and unable to connect.  The comment about not being sexy to you, that is not really the core issue, but she MAY think that is what it is.  For instance, she may be attributing her insecurity in the relationship and doing things with you to SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT GIVING HER so she can feel secure.  Of course if the relationship itself is strained, then that would actually add to her insecurity - but it is not the SOURCE of it.  In her mind the answer to the problem is you doing x, y, z to make her feel ok and secure about herself, with you, and with other people you all are around.  This, of course, is WRONG.  She has to do the work on herself to find security and self esteem.

- Putting your interests down and saying all these people are boring, etc. is just her way of making the inadequacy all the OUTSIDE things, and not WITHIN herself.

Bottom line?  She would have to be able to see that all these problems are due to her low self esteem and insecurity, stop blaming them on other people/things & then want to seek out help to work on herself for this relationship ever to be anything different than it was.

And you can't do anything about it because the problem never was within you.

[peterparker]

And you can't do anything about it because the problem never was within you.

Thank you Lady 31. Almost everything you said is pretty much what I've known of her since the beginning. It was all about fear of getting close to people and fear of others perceiving her as a failure or a worthless person. I raised these issues and encouraged her to seek therapy because I knew it was impacting our relationship, even at the beginning. She went for 3 sessions then started going to happy hours instead, all while taking antidepressants.

The more I read about BPD, the more it resonates with the SOURCE you speak of. Yes, there is insecurity and yes there are feelings of inadequacy. In the beginning, I trusted that she could be introspective and tackle these issues (call me a fixer). But the denials, the projection, the cheating, the lying even when I asked for the truth, the inability to accept responsibility for hurtful actions, the friendships lost, the rages and the phases and manipulation I felt all match up too perfectly. Even the repetition of how she started up with the new guy is almost identical down to the words used to describe him as when our relationship started.

I guess my next question in this is related to that lack of understanding again. She was extremely rigid in the way she viewed relationships, friendships and viewed herself. I know who I am today is not who I was a year ago, and I have the ability to affect who I am through self-reflection and therapy and learning from my mistakes. Her opinions of people, of interactions had with others, could never be reframed based on new information. If she felt someone wronged her, it was impossible to talk about other possible interpretations for what happened, she always held onto the rage and the anger she felt at being slighted by these other people, even if the other party's behavior was completely understandable given their past experiences.

It almost seemed like she needed to keep things true in her mind based on the emotions she felt around them, completely unable to understand that truth is relative based on those experiencing an event. Is this defense of self, of facts and inability to empathize part of the disorder?

[Ironmanrises]

And you can't do anything about it because the problem never was within you.

Thank you Lady 31. Almost everything you said is pretty much what I've known of her since the beginning. It was all about fear of getting close to people and fear of others perceiving her as a failure or a worthless person. I raised these issues and encouraged her to seek therapy because I knew it was impacting our relationship, even at the beginning. She went for 3 sessions then started going to happy hours instead, all while taking antidepressants.

The more I read about BPD, the more it resonates with the SOURCE you speak of. Yes, there is insecurity and yes there are feelings of inadequacy. In the beginning, I trusted that she could be introspective and tackle these issues (call me a fixer). But the denials, the projection, the cheating, the lying even when I asked for the truth, the inability to accept responsibility for hurtful actions, the friendships lost, the rages and the phases and manipulation I felt all match up too perfectly. Even the repetition of how she started up with the new guy is almost identical down to the words used to describe him as when our relationship started.

I guess my next question in this is related to that lack of understanding again. She was extremely rigid in the way she viewed relationships, friendships and viewed herself. I know who I am today is not who I was a year ago, and I have the ability to affect who I am through self-reflection and therapy and learning from my mistakes. Her opinions of people, of interactions had with others, could never be reframed based on new information. If she felt someone wronged her, it was impossible to talk about other possible interpretations for what happened, she always held onto the rage and the anger she felt at being slighted by these other people, even if the other party's behavior was completely understandable given their past experiences.

It almost seemed like she needed to keep things true in her mind based on the emotions she felt around them, completely unable to understand that truth is relative based on those experiencing an event. Is this defense of self, of facts and inability to empathize part of the disorder?

In bold.

That is black/white thinking.

Trait of BPD.

In bold/underlined.

That is the feelings = facts... .

Irrespective of the real reality... .

Concurrently occurring around them.

Trait of BPD.

[Lady31]

I think it is still the same core issue.

Example (see if you can insert one of your own insecurities), I will use an issue I struggled with.

I lost a lot of hair at one point due to a medical issue and it was very noticeable.  I thought it looked horrible and it REALLY bothered me and my self esteem.  I felt unattractive all the sudden because of it (never thought I was unattractive before.)  Now, friends and family would tell me it looked fine, that you couldn't really tell that much, that I was making it worse than it was. 

What was reality?  Well, they could REALLY have believed that and to them it was not as noticeable/didn't look bad.  That could have been TRUE.  When they said these things did I believe it?  HECK NO.

I thought it looked so bad that I could not believe what they were saying was an actual possibility - NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAID because that was not my belief.

So take that into your ex's situation with a more major struggle:

It is still based on insecurity & rejection for her.  She believes so strongly that she is inadequate and unworthy/broken, that it doesn't matter what other logical explanation there may be - she thinks it's impossible.  To her it's impossible that there is a valid reason other than what she feels to be her truth regarding her worthlessness.

Still same root.  Reasoning does not change a person's BELIEF.  When I believe something - you, nor anyone else is going to reason me out of it.  When she believes this about herself, you are not going to reason her out of it.

And, of course, she held on to the rage and the anger because of the sensitivity to the rejection (that CAUSED the rage and anger) and the fact that she still held her original belief.  If she could truly dissolve her original belief about herself and what the reason for them behaving that way MUST be (her worthlessness/inadequacy), then the rage and anger would naturally disappear.

[Waifed]

So I've been lurking here for a couple of months. I've found almost everything I've read incredibly useful - taken some of it with a grain of salt, and some on as mantra. I ended relationship with my uBPDexgf back in April, attempted to make it work only to reveal lies, cheating, more lies about the lies... .you know the deal.

One thing I guess I've wanted validation on, and one of the things that still makes me feel like a crazy person these days, is just a fundamental lack of understanding about how interpersonal relationships work that I experienced with my exgf.

She defined herself as an introvert, and was aware that she had trouble making friends, but she always needed to categorize people. When she met someone new, she would deliberately express a desire to spend time with them, and when they didn't reciprocate, she'd paint them black. Even with people I knew she would say things like 'if they're not going to put in the effort, then I'd rather not waste my time', speaking about someone who worked full time, went to school full time and was planning their own wedding. It was like she didn't understand that people had lives outside of meeting her needs.

When it came to our relationship, she was a wonderful person when we were broken up. She would be easy to hang out with, but the second there was anything romantic going on, she flipped incredibly quickly. We processed a lot about our relationship and the 'philosophy' of her relationship was thus: if she felt sexy and desired, felt lust from me and had her sexual needs met, then she would be willing to spend time with me, doing normal couple things. Countless times I invited her to spend time with friends, and the answer was always no. Countless times my friends invited us (as a couple) to come over for dinner, play board games and other activities. Over 2 years, she went 3 times, claiming that she didn't want to go if she wasn't 'specifically invited', like we both had to be invited separately. She even refused to come to my housewarming party simply because I wanted to play board games. I asked her to go running, on romantic weekends away, hang out with her friends, try new restaurants, visit her friends in other cities. Every time she said no, and the last discussion we had on the topic, she basically said that the reason she said no was because she didn't feel sexually desired by me.

Overall, it just seemed that she had no understanding of the aspects of natural give and take in a human relationship, that you put your best effort forward selflessly and expect the other person to do the same, with little to no expectations of each other, just a general appreciation for time spent together. For her, it was like most people and relationships were treated as transactional, like time spent and effort given was something you kept score about and there were prerequisites for her doing anything, all based on her needs, and if people had other stuff going on in their lives, they were useless to her.

The ideas of 'if you're happy, I'm happy' and being excited to hear about others' interests didn't seem to compute either. She constantly put down my interests, and told me that she found most people boring, which is why she didn't have many friends.

These are the things I've been ruminating about, the things that have been making me doubt whether my expectations of a relationship were unrealistic. So many times I heard 'we just didn't work out' and 'we're incompatible', so I wonder if this was just the case. Were our philosophies of a relationships so different that it simply didn't work, or was she actually a pwBPD? I even find myself asking if this philosophy of a relationship is something that is valid or would lead to happiness. I felt like I did everything I could to encourage a healthy relationship... .right?

You have totally identified my 3 year relationship.  I still to this day don't understand why she would never meet my friends and rarely traveled with me.  I assume it was a shame thing for the things she was doing behind my back.  I guess is will never know. 

[peterparker]

Your posts are wonderful to read Lady31. Not once have you even mentioned the disorder.

She believes so strongly that she is inadequate and unworthy/broken, that it doesn't matter what other logical explanation there may be - she thinks it's impossible.

This person that I loved, that I still love, I knew this about her, even on the night we first met, and there was nothing I could do to help, because as you said, it was always up to her to work on. So this is what I struggle with when presented for the reasons for her belief and for her reality.

So many times I've seen on this board something like 'no amount of love, support, encouragement or acceptance will mean a pwBPD will change'. So that is the struggle I'm having right now.

To accept there is something about this person that is abnormal, that is disordered, that is beyond help, is very much tied to my acceptance of the fact that there was nothing I could have done. If she doesn't have BPD, then there WAS something I could have done differently, and that is difficult to consider at this point.

So many times she would have a terrible day, and I'd tell her I loved her, that I would always be there for her, come what may, but that she would need to do the work even with me by her side if she wanted to. She would rage at this idea, yell at me that all she wanted me to do was come over and hold her while she cried, but I knew this was a bandaid, something that wouldn't stop the bleeding long term. A few hours later, nothing was wrong at all.

I had done this already so many times, and I simply did not want to be a soothing parent to an adult for the rest of my life.

I have been struggling lately with what a PD actually is. For every bad thing a person does, there is a reason. Trace it back far enough to previous experiences, and you'll find your answer. Some people block these out - I know my ex did and she's still unaware that her Family of Origin played any role in her current troubles.

I think it's that inability to change that defines a PD. I can feel insecure. I can feel inadequate. I can feel worthless. I do and I have for months. But it is my conscious decision to defy this belief, recognize that it's unhealthy and to pull myself out of it. Perhaps a PD by definition is that this belief is so engrained into who someone is, and how they define themselves and view themselves that it's almost impossible for them to change. This belief is unchangeable.

I am submerged only a few feet and can see the light.

She has always been chained to the bottom with darkness all around.

She wouldn't let me help to raise her up, because every experience I had with her was like she was down there all alone with her eyes closed, telling herself she was in the light. When someone is that self-ignorant, what can be done to help them?

[Lady31]

Peter,

You are right, what could you have done to help her? (Nothing.)

Let me go to this too:  It sounds as though you are trying to determine whether or not she has BPD/a PD so you can determine if she could be helped & change.

Ok - first let me clarify - I think in all fairness I should state that people with BPD CAN change.  That isn't the part that is impossible.  (Although it's improbable because their disorder makes if very difficult to get through the work necessary to change.)  The part I was referring to that was impossible was that YOU can't REASON with a person to change a core belief. (Not that a core belief can't be changed if the person deals with it themselves.)

SO - I think in your situation you never GET to the point of questioning the PD really.  Your situation stops before that. 

She has a major issue causing serious problems.  Ok.  So next is:

1) Will she get help?  THEN is -

2) Does she have a reasonable expectation to grow and change? (BPD factors in here)Well - it doesn't really matter if she ISN'T BPD - because even if she isn't, she still has this major issue and is UNWILLING to do the work to get to the bottom of it. (The will she get help part/#1.) 

SO - even if she would have a higher chance of healing and growing in therapy and ISN'T BPD - it doesn't matter because she won't even progress to that 1st step.

And then you have to realize that THE PROGRESSION TO THAT 1ST STEP is ALSO not in your control or ability to make happen.  BPD or not.

[DragoN]

Agree with Lady31. We cannot "force" a change or even acceptance that the actions of one affect the actions and reactions of the other. There is a chain of cognitive processes on both sides that cannot be read by either party but only the reactions noted. We each are then forced to base our responses on the actions or zero actions of the other.

If you cannot communicate on an empathic level with your spouse, they cannot hear you. When my husband expected me to know what he wanted without speaking to me about it, it was the perfect BPD set up to cause dissension. No matter what I did or not I git it wrong and that was the point. To make me wrong so that he could have an excuse for the rages. My counselor was very helpful at pointing out to me the discrepancy in our styles of communication.

I think it's that inability to change that defines a PD. I can feel insecure. I can feel inadequate. I can feel worthless. I do and I have for months. But it is my conscious decision to defy this belief, recognize that it's unhealthy and to pull myself out of it. Perhaps a PD by definition is that this belief is so engrained into who someone is, and how they define themselves and view themselves that it's almost impossible for them to change. This belief is unchangeable.

The BPD lives with layers of masks that are designed to keep them safe from feeling core shame. It's not they feel bad, but that they Are Bad. It broke my heart to hear and see my husband cry when he'd hurt me and I wanted to leave. He was All Bad, but he is not. He is a broken soul.

I think a person suffering with BPD can change, but they must want to and be held accountable, but if they are not even aware of their effect on others due to the multiple levels of denial? Then we are the crazy ones to even try to help. We cannot as we are their triggers.