Marriage Therapist meeting tomorrow- anything I should or shouldn't do?

[Sluggo]

I posted this on the staying board but the more I think about it... .it probably should get the wise advice of the group on this board. Any last minute things I should be aware of.  Can I lose my rights or leverage on anything if I talk to much in this meeting if it is indeed to help through the divorce.

A marriage counselor that my dBPDw and myself went to about 8 sessions this summer- who at the last session said "I don't see much help I can give your marriage.  He said that after he asked my wife about my attempts at repair and if she could acknowledge those attempts and my wife said no that my husband didn't do it correctly.  The therapist then said well you are more than welcome to come back to help improve your marriage or help with specific arguments BUT if you don't want to continue this marriage I can help you with your divorce also.  It will be a lot cheaper than going through an attorney.   

Wife set up appointment.  I am not sure why she set it up- and I am afraid to ask as it may derail the opportunity to see the counselor together.  If you read earlier posts- my wife stopped talking to me about 9 weeks ago.  She said I was to stop all communication with my family when she is not in the room.  I can only talk to them when she is there.  I said I would not do that and it has been horrible at home since with further escalations.  That was the first time in 15 years I have enforced a boundary of this magnitude.

So not sure what to expect.  Did she set up this appointment to help with the divorce and negotiate parental custody?  Or is she wanting to work on marriage.  Has anyone gone to a marriage therapist with spouse to work through the divorce details.

Thanks for any help can give or things I should be aware of or to look out for.    I hope she says I want to work on the marriage.  But everything she has told me and our kids up to now that she is going to divorce me as soon as the birth of our new child in December.

[ForeverDad]

Expect anything, everything and nothing.

It has been noted before that our past close emotional relationship with our spouse (and what relationship is closer than a spouse?) can be a barrier now for our spouse to accept anything we say.  The spouse or ex looks at us or hears us and can only see or hear the huge emotional baggage of the past relationship.  That is why, just maybe, an emotionally neutral, perceptive and experienced professional may make progress where you could not.  Whether that progress is substantial or not or whether it is brief or lasts, hard to know in advance.  If she's not in effecting and progressing therapy then the odds aren't in favor of substantial or lasting.

That said, having a counselor to buffer her disconnected perceptions, reactions and overreactions would be very helpful if not invaluable.  Can't see a downside to that as long as your perspective and expectations are informed and insightful - and grounded in reality.  A 'reality' where you accept you're dealing with a person who can agree to something one moment and totally disagree the next.

Generally we advise our members to have an effective exit strategy.  Most often that cannot be shared with our spouse, not if we want to avoid being sabotaged and obstructed the next time(s) the other's moods flip.  Keep that in mind.  If she does decide to continue the marriage, then keep your exit strategy and related information to yourself.  Sharing information of that sort is often self sabotaging.  Remember, some things are to be shared if a marriage is to work and prosper, but you still have a right, a need, to keep some things private and confidential.

[scraps66]

Be prepared to be blamed for everything.  Typically, three people in a room withone being a BPD is a recipe for rationalization, justification, distortion and blame shifting.

[Nope]

You have to be prepared for anything. BPD people can and do flip the script without a moments notice. She could have called the meeting for one reason, be preparing herself to discuss a different reason, and have already moved on to agenda number three by the time she actually walks through the door. So if she doesn't know what she is going to do yet then there is certainly no use in worrying about whatever reason number one might have been.

[Sluggo]

Thank you for the quick thoughts and responses Forever Dad, scraps66 and Nope. 

Generally we advise our members to have an effective exit strategy.  Most often that cannot be shared with our spouse, not if we want to avoid being sabotaged and obstructed the next time(s) the other's moods flip.  Keep that in mind.  If she does decide to continue the marriage, then keep your exit strategy and related information to yourself.  Sharing information of that sort is often self sabotaging.  Remember, some things are to be shared if a marriage is to work and prosper, but you still have a right, a need, to keep some things private and confidential.

Thank you for that.  Yes as talked about before there is a plan b in place right now... .I will keep that in my back pocket for now.

This will be our first meeting with this therapist since the big blowup 9 weeks ago.  I wish we had longer than 50 minutes.  I will be ready for the distortions and hopefully will be able to respond and keep my emotions and responses even keeled.  I am looking forward to the meeting... .however I am not sure why. 

• Is it because it may start to bring closure to the open question of divorce she has been requesting,



• That I am looking for repair on the marriage



• Looking for validation that her unhealthy request of not talking to my family is not reasonable

My emotions and feelings of anticipation are mixed up right now. 

[ForeverDad]

YOU know those answers.  The issue is you can't rely on her to really listen, accept and not raise those very same issues again and again.  As evidence of that, look where you are now, on the brink of divorce.  That's clear indication there is major dysfunction in the relationship.

Closure is for you, and probably will be found within yourself and not from her.  Accept that.  "Let Go" and "Move On" with a clear conscience if that is the outcome.

Perhaps you can start with firm boundaries that neither should weaken or denigrate.  She needs to accept that it is totally normal for you to have reasonable and flexible contact with your family and friends - that is non-negotiable.  (Disordered people are well known for isolating their partners and even children from others to control or block support.)  On the flip side, you may need to accept that she doesn't want to see them.  Personally, it's hard to imagine two people disagreeing on such as major topic as having a lasting relationship, but who am I to say what will make it more positive?  But boundaries are crucial, especially if one of the couple is a controller or dictator.

Not making false allegations is another firm boundary.  While court may profess to phrase false claims as "unsubstantiated" and ignore the core issues, you both would know them for what they are, LIES to pressure, blame shifting, manipulative or grab power.  When there are significant lies, lies that hurt and obstruct, there can be no real trust.  Marriage requires trust.

[MammaMia]

Is your marriage counselor aware your wife has BPD?  That could be a huge issue during discussions.

[Sluggo]

Closure is for you, and probably will be found within yourself and not from her.  Accept that.  "Let Go" and "Move On" with a clear conscience if that is the outcome.

Perhaps you can start with firm boundaries that neither should weaken or denigrate.  She needs to accept that it is totally normal for you to have reasonable and flexible contact with your family and friends - that is non-negotiable.  (Disordered people are well known for isolating their partners and even children from others to control or block support.)  On the flip side, you may need to accept that she doesn't want to see them.  Personally, it's hard to imagine two people disagreeing on such as major topic as having a lasting relationship, but who am I to say what will make it more positive?  But boundaries are crucial, especially if one of the couple is a controller or dictator.

Yes I need to come to a place of acceptance.  I can go through a day and not really think about it much... .then as I get in the car on the way home the emotions hit me: sadness of loss, anger, and that sometimes will continue until I go to sleep. 

I will use the time tomorrow to reaffirm the established boundaries I have set.  I like having that goal going into it.  Thank you.  That could flush out the potential divorce if that is where she is wanting to go if unable to agree to those. 

Is your marriage counselor aware your wife has BPD?  That could be a huge issue during discussions.

  Yes he read the pscyc evals on both of us after our 1st visit.  It was also brought up in therapy together. 

[livednlearned]

The therapist then said well you are more than welcome to come back to help improve your marriage or help with specific arguments BUT if you don't want to continue this marriage I can help you with your divorce also.  It will be a lot cheaper than going through an attorney.   

I'm sorry, but What the heck? No, really. What the heck.

The therapist said I can't help you with the marriage, so I'll help you with the divorce? And by the way, I'm not an attorney. Um, that is so red flaggy crazy. How is this even remotely ethical?

I have heard everything now.

Do not let a therapist play lawyer. I had a fantastic therapist who gave me great advice. She even recommended my lawyer. But there have been many times over the past 3 years when my lawyer had to say, "I respect the advice your therapist is giving you, but she is not a lawyer. She does not practice law." Meaning, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

Just like you wouldn't go see a family law attorney for marriage counseling, don't go see a therapist to help you with your divorce.

This marriage counselor seems totally dubious to me. Keep in mind that therapists can be subpoenaed to appear in court. With a lawyer, you have attorney-client privileges.

Gah! Sorry for the candid response. I just don't see how this could possibly end well for you.

[Waddams]

Have to agree with LnL regarding the T.  Be on guard.  If something is making you uncomfortable, listen to your gut.  It's probably right, even if you can't articulate exactly why.  Don't let your BPD turn triangulate you using the T.  It's fine to get up and walk out if something like starts to develop.

[Sluggo]

Thank you LnL for being very candid.     Great point on attorney and client privileges don't extend to T in court.  I will get the full understanding on what he meant to say tomorrow about the divorce.    

Question on boundaries:  My income has declined quite a bit and we have been borrowing from our little savings left to pay the credit card each and every month for the last 6 months.  I thought we could start going cash only in order to keep track on our money.  My wife thinks I am controlling with that (in the 15 years we never have done it this way but income had been better before and lot less fixed expenses then).  I don't want to be thought of in divorce court as some overbearing controlling guy- matter of fact I am a real pushover which is a problem of mine- I always said yes to her.  My wife said she should get the same pay that a Nanny does plus money for kids expenses. My wife doesn't work outside the home.  

Is it reasonable to bring up this boundary tomorrow on going 'cash only'.  That is, giving her a set amount each week and stating that is it.  I currently do 85% of the grocery shopping and fill up her tank of gas now.  I am really not sure what other items that she would be getting.  I have her $180 on Monday and on Wednesday she was asking for more.  I told her no but know this may get brought up tomorrow.  

[Waddams]

My ex-wife brought up the issue of me saying no to her spending as a control thing too.  And I realize a lot of people get controlled by a partner holding the purse strings.  However, there's also got to be a balance with responsible fiscal behavior.  You can't consistently overspend your income without making big troubles in the future.  In my case, I'm still paying off CC debt she racked up secretly and I got stuck with in the divorce, and it's been 5 years!

You have a right to live in a fiscally sound lifestyle.  I think as long as you both stick to a budget where you both cut your spending, then things are fair and square, and defendable should you need to later.  If she fights against that and what she wants will overspend your budget, it's not controlling toward her to say no.  It's responsible on your part and standing up for your own boundaries and right to be secure financially.

As always, this is just my humble opinion.  I've sat in MC with uPDxw (before the D) and shown spending vs. income based on bank records, how she was overspending and driving us into debt.  Contrasted my own spending which was basically nil.  uPDxw sat right there and cried control.  When confronted with facts like actual numbers of income vs. spending, and questioned on it by the T, she just started crying and claiming things were being manipulated, and changed her habits to be secretive so I wouldn't find out.  The whole thing still pi$$es me off sometimes when I think about how it all played out in the D.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with the thought that a therapist cannot replace lawyers.  Could it be, though, that the T is only saying, "I may be able to keep the divorce process from becoming too oppositional and expensive if you both will let me maintain a dialogue in a structured framework or setting."  Is that what he said and not that he was an affordable lawyer alternative?  It's very possible that he could help smooth things over to at least some extent when things got dicey, but he has to be very careful not to become emotionally entangled.  If that happens your ex will see any disagreement with her perspective as siding with you and she could dig in her heels and be obstructive anyway.

In my case, my side and ex's side almost never talked.  The divorce had to go through every single step of the divorce process.  Rather than the estimated 7-9 months, it was 23.5 months.  And on Trial Morning, with not other obstructions left, she settled.  I've always wondered whether we could have worked things out sooner if we had been required to have someone guiding us along kindly rather than left to ourselves as virtual enemies.

I believe Matt had someone, was it the custody evaluator, a parenting coordinator or therapist who helped get the process back on track every time his then-stbEx was uncooperative or not responding?

Of course, a lot depends on how obstructive and how possessive the disordered spouse is... .

[livednlearned]

I agree with the thought that a therapist cannot replace lawyers.  Could it be, though, that the T is only saying, "I may be able to keep the divorce process from becoming too oppositional and expensive if you both will let me maintain a dialogue in a structured framework or setting." 

It could be that N/BPDx is more disordered that some of the BPD spouses we discuss here, and if so, I fully accept my perspective is skewed by that. But no judge, no therapist, no lawyer, no parenting coordinator, no doctor has been able to prevent things from becoming too oppositional with N/BPDx. The only thing that would even give me the smallest glimmer of hope that a third-party could help is if the pwBPD desperately wanted to get better and was in intensive therapy, like 5 to 6 times a week for years.

Again, apologies for the bluntness! I really mean no disrespect. It's coming from a place of caring about you for going through the same kind of things I did.

Like you said, talk to the marriage counselor to find out what he's thinking. Maybe he's a master negotiator and is partial to doing what's best for the kids, and knows how to play this (or her) so that she feels like she's winning, while at the same time giving you the best deal. But you should have 100% trust in the MC, and understand fully that he can be subpoenaed if your case gets to that.

Divorce with a pwBPD is like playing with fire. Maybe there are ways to keep that fire contained, but if there is, I never figured it out. Almost everyone here wanted that, you know? No one wanted a high-conflict divorce that costed a small fortune.

First thing you want to find out is confidentiality. If your MC can't guarantee that, then be careful! It's one of the reasons collaborative divorces are a bad idea for high-conflict divorces. You play all your cards, and if you can't come to an agreement, the Ls are contractually obligated to stop. They aren't allowed to take your case to court. So you've just showed all of your cards to your ex, and then you have to go and retain a whole new set of lawyers!

[david]

My xBPDw said we had to go to marriage counseling back in 2007. We went together about 4 times. I never seen the person I saw in that room before. Ex accused me of all kinds of things and I just sat there because it was so rapid fire I had no way to even formulate a thought. The T had us come separately after that. I went about 4 times then too. All the T wanted to know was what was going on with wife outsider of the office. She did say she was still trying to gain her trust. The last time I went the T said, "I'm so sorry but ex is my client and I can't see you anymore. You need to get an attorney and do what they say."

I am divorced now and finally feeling like me again. We have kids so we have to communivcate. I only communicate through email to protect myself. I still get emails accusing me of all kinds of things. She drags up things from the past, some of which I have no recollection of so I suspect a complete fabrication, and things from present which are complete fabrications since I haven't spoken to her in over two years, except through email, and haven't been physically near her except at school meetings or doc appointments for the kids and I haven't spoken to her at them either.

[ForeverDad]

David makes a point, if this becomes a BlameFest, or T allows it to become one, then it can't work.

As already mentioned there are differences from one disordered spouse to another.  There are typical patterns but your spouse may or may not adhere to all of them.  Use your best judgment whether to proceed or call it quits.  Just proceed or not for the right reasons.

[Sluggo]

Well, just back from appointment...

Long and short... .he asked my wife Is there anything that your husband can do that will win your love back etc.  She said no and he asked 2 more times... .and she said it would have to be a miracle.  He said I don't have any miracles.  A marriage can't work if it is only one person that wants it.  It needs both.  . 

He said it is obvious you can't afford a divorce (financially living separately with her not working).  Where would you go?  How would it work?   I can help with the ground rules on how to live in the house together amicably.  Are you willing to want me help you through that.  She said that I want him out of the house.  I said I would be happy to get her an apartment but I do not want to leave the kids.  She said no but then said later in the meeting I will be happy to leave the house after the baby is born.  T said I will set an appointment next week if you can come in good faith to work on the terms of living together for the sake of the kids (stressed to wife not to work on marriage as she said earlier she didn't want that). 

Wife called me shortly after meeting and said she wants to talk tonight on what these terms are and wants them written down.  I feel a little cornered on writing down something to an agreement that I might not find was right later on.  I feel a little overwhelmed about is this going to be a marathon night of discussion.  I am afraid it will be a night of name calling and hearing how bad I have been over the last 14 years.   

[ForeverDad]

Did he state any ground rules for conversations outside the T's office?  Could one ground rule should be that you both report how things have been - if it can be kept to facts and not blaming - since the prior visit?

Meanwhile another ground rule (boundary) is that either one can call off the home talks if it becomes a blamefest or gets too late.  If she doesn't agree and starts belittling, ranting, raging, etc then you need to not let it go on.  Same goes for her, she could tell you to stop and back off, but of course I don't think you'll be the one belittling, ranting, raging, etc.  Right?

On the other hand, it seems she is accepting of her moving out at some point.  Amazing, many of us would say our ex-spouses were far too entitled and possessive to even ponder the concept.  Whether that lasts is the real issue.

Since she is likely to change the agreements, rules, and terms repeatedly, this is all "negotiation".  Nothing is really final until the judge accepts it and makes it an order or a signed agreement gets filed on the court's record.  I'm not a legal eagle and so your laws may define procedures differently.  I would suggest you label any paperwork "tentative" or "draft proposal", etc until you both are happy (or equally unhappy) with it.  Be aware that anything she agrees to she will see as tentative but anything you agree to she will see as written in stone.

A risk is that the give and take will be skewed and lopsided in favor of the more demanding spouse, one side will take and the other give.  It may be hard for her to give even a reasonable amount.  If you can, every time the focus shift uncomfortably to you or her, try to redirect her to what is good for the kids.

How long has she not worked?  Maybe she needs some short term training?  The reality of divorce is that at some point she'll have to support herself and her share of the parenting.  If you do give her some initial support (short term alimony or spousal support) you can't keep it up for long, especially if you're caring for the children and also paying most of their expenses.

If she is a chronic non-worker, it's possible she will go find a place to live with another man, one she hasn't rejected yet, to avoid seeking a job.

[KateCat]

All4,

You're getting some great advice here about a tough situation.   Do I read your posts right, and is your wife soon to give birth to child number eight of your marriage? Do you and your wife have family members or close friends or religious community members who can be of help in managing all the changes coming to the family?

[MammaMia]

Wow.  If you have 8 children... .your wife has a full-time job!  What are their ages?

[momtara]

Haven't read all the posts.  Regarding things you say in therapy being used against you - well, yes, if you did have a custody evaluation, the evaluator could ask your therapist things.  That could help you or hurt you.  Just be reasonable and don't give away anything that you wouldn't want a custody evaluator to know. 

If you want to save the marriage, you can make it clear that you want to save it, you still love her, you love the kids, and there are some things you'd like to change.

Sorry to hear that you're going through this.  It can't be easy with that many kids.

[Waddams]

@david - so what are you thinking right now?  do you want the marriage to end?  or do you not have concrete wants/thinking in all this yet?

[KateCat]

Knowing what you are hoping for may well be very powerful in your situation. Your wife may have a very unrealistic picture of divorce as a "greener pasture" for her. (For instance, in the U.S., if she just "gave you the kids" and walked away, a family court judge would likely order her to contribute a fixed amount to the support of her children each month. With no history of employment outside the home, and with eight children, it's hard to see any way things would be easy for her.) When she begins to realize that, she may choose to remain married. (And then you may be in a position to ask for continuing family therapy, or individual therapy for her.)

[slimmiller]

I dont know all of your situation but you said she mentioned wanting things written down and you seem reluctant to do that. My experience says it IS a good idea to do that. Due to the very simple fact that she will continue to change her mind and what she agrees on now, she may not tomorrw. I do that with mine. All important stuff is done with e-mail. (We have a nesting arrengement at the moment so we see each other in passing but... .). Its a peace of mind to have something on paper even if you agree between the two of you to revise things as the need arises.

Her objective at the moment is to nullify the marriage contract so to speak. She thinks that will give her the peace and freedom that she so desperately needs. Thats why she is bulldozing her life, yours and that of the kids. Her pain and inner hollowness will cause her to sway like a feather in the wind so if anything that you can negotiate is written down, theres a better chance of making it stick.

Mine at times does not remember conversations or agreements. If she does she just says, yes but and then blah blah and what ever she had agreed to becomes null and void because theres nothing making her keep her word.

Good luck and stay close to this board. Its what kept me sane when I was going through it with mine

[slimmiller]

Also since she is in close proximity, be very careful. Read 'Splitting' to help protect yourself and lesson the chance of her accusing you (possibly) in the future of DV.  I know this may seem impossible for the sweet angels we fell in love with but I have seen mine savagely kick a door down in a blind rage in front of my children. 

You have to take care of you first and formost for the kids sake

[Sluggo]

Thank you all for your input.  forverdad, mamamia, katecat, mommara, waadams, and David

Meanwhile another ground rule (boundary) is that either one can call off the home talks if it becomes a blamefest or gets too late.  If she doesn't agree and starts belittling, ranting, raging, etc then you need to not let it go on.  Same goes for her, she could tell you to stop and back off, but of course I don't think you'll be the one belittling, ranting, raging, etc.  Right?

Will establish the boundary.  Yes the belittling, ranting, etc comes from my wife.  Still trying to work on the SET comments but are hard for me to still say them on the spot.  

On the other hand, it seems she is accepting of her moving out at some point.  Amazing, many of us would say our ex-spouses were far too entitled and possessive to even ponder the concept.  Whether that lasts is the real issue.

 

I still think that even though she has said this countless times that she would leave, it is more of a way to use the kids and their needs to overwhelm me and so I will say that I can't do it by myself.  As in the past I have always given in to something like this and have felt overwhelmed.  This time though I do have plans in place to take care of the kids if she decides to leave.  I haven't said 'i can't  do it without you'.

Since she is likely to change the agreements, rules, and terms repeatedly, this is all "negotiation".  Nothing is really final until the judge accepts it and makes it an order or a signed agreement gets filed on the court's record.  I'm not a legal eagle and so your laws may define procedures differently.  I would suggest you label any paperwork "tentative" or "draft proposal", etc until you both are happy (or equally unhappy) with it.  Be aware that anything she agrees to she will see as tentative but anything you agree to she will see as written in stone. rolleyes

That is the hardest thing... .knowing I want to work something out and make it work.  However, the things I have read in these posts is that these negotiations really don't work and may backfire.  And you are correct that my list will be in stone and her list will be flexible.  

How long has she not worked?  Maybe she needs some short term training?  The reality of divorce is that at some point she'll have to support herself and her share of the parenting.  If you do give her some initial support (short term alimony or spousal support) you can't keep it up for long, especially if you're caring for the children and also paying most of their expenses.

She only has worked 2 jobs outside of the home for about 12 weeks in our 15 year marriage- retail for holidays.  But yes we do have 8 kids so I have never expected her to work outside the home especially as d7 has special needs.  Our kids range from ages 13-2.  She is pregnant which I think has been a trigger for her moods.  With pregnancy 2 and pregnancy 7 she threatened suicide by leaving the house in the car and locking herself in bathroom where there were some prescription medicine.  

If you want to save the marriage, you can make it clear that you want to save it, you still love her, you love the kids, and there are some things you'd like to change

 

so what are you thinking right now?  do you want the marriage to end?  or do you not have concrete wants/thinking in all this yet?

If she told me today she wants to continue the marriage I would be happy (although guarded).  I tend to forget about all the awful things that she has said and done.  Perhaps still holding on to the good memories we have had.  I feel like I am still standing on the line of repair and forgiveness if she is wanting to come to this line with me.  But I don't want to continue to live in this hostility and 'silence'.  Not being able to say good morning to her, good night, how was your day, etc.  We can't jointly engage in a conversation with our kids as she said not to but into my conversations with them.  All those things are off limits with her.  Matter of fact she still will only (95% time) text me even if I am in the house or at the same dinner table with the kids.  

That stuff is so hard for me to live with.  However some aspects I like a lot more.  I did leave the house the other day after putting the kids to bed to go to the cinema.  Felt a little weird going by myself but I would have never done that before.  I would let her- tell me not to go- and then I wouldn't.  So having the freedom to feel more myself has been good.  The cold shoulder and awkward family conversations have been difficult.  

 

[Sluggo]

slimmiller,

Read 'Splitting' to help protect yourself and lesson the chance of her accusing you (possibly) in the future of DV.

  I am about 1/2 way through the book and listened to the CD.  Yes had the police out to my home already.  they did nothing but it is so sad!

I dont know all of your situation but you said she mentioned wanting things written down and you seem reluctant to do that. My experience says it IS a good idea to do that. Due to the very simple fact that she will continue to change her mind and what she agrees on now, she may not tomorrw. I do that with mine. All important stuff is done with e-mail. (We have a nesting arrengement at the moment so we see each other in passing but... .). Its a peace of mind to have something on paper even if you agree between the two of you to revise things as the need arises.

What do you mean by nesting arrangement?  Just living in the same household.  Are you still married, separated, etc. 

Yes reluctant that I may not be strong enough to state my boundaries effectively still trying to understand what healthy boundaries are (much better than before but still need help).  I am afraid I will keep writing more stuff that I will do and then realize after the fact that I wasn't thinking in a healthy way.  That is, violating my boundaries with the hopes to bring peace. 

[ForeverDad]

Nesting might refer to a temporary arrangement where the children say in the marital home and the parents take turns coming in and being with the children.  However, it is expensive to maintain 3 homes (one each for father, mother and children) so typically if this attempted it is only done short term unless the parents are independently wealthy.  I don't think you can do that and if you try it won't last long.  Even if you make it only two homes where one home is like a timeshare for the parents, that's not good, once you're divorced you won't want her going through your things, she won't want you going through her things and it would be nearly impossible trying to get her to pay for her share of the expenses.

I can see this getting messy.  Not for the business aspect, but for the emotions.  She wants to end it all.  You finally accept it.  Since you won't go, she says she'll go.  Then when it is time for her to go she realizes the costs and she decides to either stay or force you to go.  Then she doesn't take care of the kids, you come back, maybe she goes or maybe not.  See what I mean by messy?  All that will rake you over the emotional coals and after all that chaos back and forth, will you have made any progress or will you be right back to where you are now?

It is often remarked here that you marry out of love and other fine emotions... .but in divorce it is best to set as many as the emotions as possible to the side and focus on it as though it were a business transaction, such as splitting up a company.  It's not the same of course, but you have to approach it in that manner or else you'll be a wreck afterward and won't have handled all the necessary details or the children well.  It may sound cold and heartless, but doing it mostly businesslike is practical and how the lawyers and nearly everyone (who is reasonably normal and reasonable) approach it.

[Sluggo]

ForeverDad,

Nesting- I had hear one of my sister's friends doing that.  However, they may not be as high conflict as this.  I can see what you are saying that it could be messy.   

Business transaction- never thought of it that way but I can see how that would be the best to keep the emotions out of it.  Seems to be easier said than done I am sure when in the thick of it.  But if I can keep my light house there I can try to stay a steady course. 

Just really never thought my marriage would come to this- that is if the D does go through.    :'(

[ForeverDad]

It's okay to hope for the best... .but still plan for the worst.  And anything in between.