Fight fire with fire?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi guys,


I've been reading your stories for weeks now (way before I became a member) and it's unbelievable to see so many similarities.

As I mentioned in the introductory board... my own problem seems to be that I am too empathic. I am trying to become less vulnerable, but it is hard... .extremely hard.

For example, one of the most hurtful things I experienced was the -regular- silent treatment. But unfortunately, this NC also seems one of the main strategies to heal.

For me, as of now, this is just really hard. It even is hard to read all the top stories in this current board, referencing to it.

I mean, aren't we then fighting fire with fire? Aren't we allowing some of the Borderline traits to enter our own personality? Are we actually still true to our inner self?

Sure... one could say that the 'silent treatment' by a Borderliner is often just punishment. And NC by us, is just self-protection and enabling us to heal.

But is it really? I know the hurt caused by regular silent treatment, and is it okay to do that to others?

And on top of that: aren't Borderliners using the Silent Treatment as a protective mechanism as well. That's not even a question... I know that for a fact (though it still hurts like hell). And isn't the entire Borderline Personality developed as a coping/survival mechanism?

It just seems all so conflicting to me... allowing traits of a Borderliner to cope and heal from a Borderliner. :-(

It really conflicts with my character.

But on the other hand... .I know the only other option seems to be allowing total self-destruction... .

I'm confused 

[EdR]

Hi guys,


I've been reading your stories for weeks now (way before I became a member) and it's unbelievable to see so many similarities.

As I mentioned in the introductory board... my own problem seems to be that I am too empathic. I am trying to become less vulnerable, but it is hard... .extremely hard.

For example, one of the most hurtful things I experienced was the -regular- silent treatment. But unfortunately, this NC also seems one of the main strategies to heal.

For me, as of now, this is just really hard. It even is hard to read all the top stories in this current board, referencing to it.

I mean, aren't we then fighting fire with fire? Aren't we allowing some of the Borderline traits to enter our own personality? Are we actually still true to our inner self?

Sure... one could say that the 'silent treatment' by a Borderliner is often just punishment. And NC by us, is just self-protection and enabling us to heal.

But is it really? I know the hurt caused by regular silent treatment, and is it okay to do that to others?

And on top of that: aren't Borderliners using the Silent Treatment as a protective mechanism as well. That's not even a question... I know that for a fact (though it still hurts like hell). And isn't the entire Borderline Personality developed as a coping/survival mechanism?

It just seems all so conflicting to me... allowing traits of a Borderliner to cope and heal from a Borderliner. :-(

It really conflicts with my character.

But on the other hand... .I know the only other option seems to be allowing total self-destruction... .

I'm confused 

[BlackOrWhite]

This is very true. Way to actually think deeper about this. I agree. I can tell you have a heart.

[Turkish]

It hurts me to the core to have established NC with mine even though we are still in the same house with our little kids. I put down the boundary of no talking about "us" anymore. Just day to day things (I violated that twice in the past month just the same).

I know she knows she hurt me, though lacking empathy, she really doesn't know.

I read the not so hidden messages she leaves around for me.

She thinks I don't talk to her because I don't care. Yet it is the opposite. In loving her, I am letting her go. Because the conversations always cycle back to the same things... .blaming me, where at the beginning of the conversation, she takes 90% of it on herself. I can't let myself be devalued like that any longer. I can't change anything about her. I know the pain and the emptiness inside of her. She thinks I don't, but I do.

Being an empathetic person (which is what attracts them in the first place), it hurts me to the core to not do anything to fix it. But I can do nothing, being already discarded, despite lingering emotional connections even on her side (a lot due to our little kids).

Forget fighting her, fight yourself and win.

[Ironmanrises]

It hurts me to the core to have established NC with mine even though we are still in the same house with our little kids. I put down the boundary of no talking about "us" anymore. Just day to day things (I violated that twice in the past month just the same).

I know she knows she hurt me, though lacking empathy, she really doesn't know.

I read the not so hidden messages she leaves around for me.

She thinks I don't talk to her because I don't care. Yet it is the opposite. In loving her, I am letting her go. Because the conversations always cycle back to the same things... .blaming me, where at the beginning of the conversation, she takes 90% of it on herself. I can't let myself be devalued like that any longer. I can't change anything about her. I know the pain and the emptiness inside of her. She thinks I don't, but I do.

Being an empathetic person (which is what attracts them in the first place), it hurts me to the core to not do anything to fix it. But I can do nothing, being already discarded, despite lingering emotional connections even on her side (a lot due to our little kids).

Forget fighting her, fight yourself and win.

In bold.

Spot on Turkish.

I second that.

There is no fighting her... .

Once the other side... .

Emerges... .

When the pwBPD... .

Is triggered... .

The fight was over... .

Right then and there.

There is no fighting that.

Radical acceptance.

No other choice.

[peterparker]

I think you're right EdR,

I'm confused about this too. Whenever my ex and I spoke, I was still so hurt about the lying and cheating and blaming that the conversations we had would just descend into a massive fight. This is why I did NC. After a month I got a text 2 days ago asking how I was. ':)o I reply?' I thought. Isn't it disrespectful to her not to answer the text? Maybe.

I have the luxury of telling my ex in the past that if I don't respond, that doesn't mean I don't care, its just that I need to not respond for my own emotional health.

I haven't responded yet, and the way I look at is that I am generally a respectful person. I respected her throughout our relationship, tried to be supportive, loving, include her in my life and plans and overall encouraged a healthy relationship. She did not, on all counts, so if I have to ignore a text, and be a bit disrespectful so I don't have a panic attack or feel like crap by re-engaging and thinking about her and my replacement, it's totally worth it.

We spent so much of our emotional energy on them. NC / ignoring their attempts to contact us - This is evidence that we are reinvesting in ourselves and giving ourselves.

[EdR]

Thank you for all your replies!

I very much understand what you guys are saying. Still... .in all honesty... I would still feel uneasy about it.

Even in simple things, as I mentioned before, somewhere else. Like Christmas. Christmas means a lot to me. On the one hand I would feel rotten to the core if I don't leave a small message. But sending a small message could mean opening myself up to yet another cycle of hurt and confusion.

It's like choosing the lesser of two evils :-(


I know -rationally- that I should just focus on myself. But emotionally... .  It's probably something which will take a lot of time :-(

[Bananas]

I know how you feel, I struggled with this.

NC is not for everyone.  I have LC with my ex because we work together.  NC when I can have it (on weekends and vacation) does provide me some clarity and stregth, and was especially valuable at the beginning of the breakup because I was the one who wanted to make all the contact to try to explain myself and make things right.  And for me, contact that I initiated about the relationship or breakup always left me hurt, because I did not get the desired response, or worse I got NO RESPONSE.  Took me awhile to learn that lesson. 

At present my ex likes to stop me in the hall and make small talk.  What I said to him recently was, "for now, I would like to keep our contact work related only, I am still processing a lot of emotions about our relationship and breakup and I need some time and space to work on myself". 

That may not work for everyone, but it is working for me.  I am being honest.  Now my ex does not respect the work only thing, but if I choose not to respond to personal emails or cut personal conversations short I don't feel bad because I explained things to him up front. 

It takes awhile to not read into/analyze everything they are saying or doing.  I am not being indifferent, because I do care about my ex.  I am just training myself to have no expectations.  He can contact me or not and I will respond or not according to my boundaries.   

[Learning_curve74]

Forget fighting her, fight yourself and win.

Turkish, you hit the nail on the head!  

EdR, I know it's hard for you, almost all of us are having our have had the same struggles as you.  

It is okay and I believe best in life to be empathic. It is not healthy to be enmeshed. When all your thoughts and emotions are dependent solely on another person's words and actions, that is not a healthy relationship: you are lost in another. Going NC is simply a way to go "cold turkey" to start your journey of detachment and healing.

As an analogy, some people can quit smoking by cutting back, others need to quit cold turkey. The pain might be greater quitting cold turkey, but you usually get over the bump quicker. The problem is if you could've detached without going NC, you probably wouldn't be in this situation of choosing to go NC to begin with, so that's why you will probably benefit from it.

We all have reasons why we got enmeshed in a BPD relationship, and often those issues cannot be resolved when we are still in contact with our pwBPD because we will still be caught up in the dysfunctional behaviors we both, BPD AND nonBPD partner, engaged in. It's like being an alcoholic that wants to quit drinking but living in the bar. It's extremely unlikely to happen unless you remove yourself from the situation and unhealthy cycle of behavior.

When you have reached a point of healing where you are no longer enmeshed and will not be drawn in, then NC may or may not be what you want anymore.

[musicfan42]

Hi EdR,

I tried really hard with my BPD ex... I used mindfulness techniques during his rages... assertiveness techniques... tried to listen to him more etc. I tried to problem solve-get him to try a different type of treatment for his BPD. Yes, all that was trying to rescuing him... I agree.

But nothing worked. This was over a short space of time and very soon I had to go NC for my own sanity.  I say "for my own sanity" because I just couldn't take anymore of it. I knew that I would end up losing my temper with him... he would have just turned me into an angry shell of a person had I stayed with him.

NC is a boundary. To protect myself. It's not to hurt anyone else-it's just there because I couldn't take that emotional abuse anymore. I knew that I deserved better... I wasn't willing to put with his bad behavior. I knew that I could get a better boyfriend.

Silent treatment is form of emotional abuse whereby someone is raging internally but deliberately chooses not to talk to you... just to punish you.

[EdR]

Silent treatment is form of emotional abuse whereby someone is raging internally but deliberately chooses not to talk to you... just to punish you.

Thank you :-)

But the quote is actually the thing I'm struggling with. She never talked about her real feelings/emotions. So the fact that I did got some info out of her, and the info itself is actually something her friends wouldn't even believe.

There were 3 cases in which she broke the Silent Treatment and gave some sort of vague and short explanation.

The first time she basically said: it isn't because of you

The second time: it isn't personal

The third time was actually the most explanatory: that's when she said that only people very close to her knew about this Silent Treatment/NC of hers. She would ignore them because it was like a test. Trying to find out which people mattered to her. She would feel happy if she actually missed someone after a period of ST/NC. And eventually she would try to get in touch with them again.

This third time was actually quite recent and one of the best conversations I ever had with her. She didn't want to go anywhere, but just stay and talk. Too bad she still gave me the Silent Treatment almost directly afterwards.  :'(

I think that was just me coming too close to her emotional comfort zone. She 'exposed' herself in a way. Something which should have been hard for her. Which probably short-circuited in a way. Though it still hurts a lot. I told her that. Response: silence.

[Ironmanrises]

Silent treatment is form of emotional abuse whereby someone is raging internally but deliberately chooses not to talk to you... just to punish you.

Thank you :-)

But the quote is actually the thing I'm struggling with. She never talked about her real feelings/emotions. So the fact that I did got some info out of her, and the info itself is actually something her friends wouldn't even believe.

There were 3 cases in which she broke the Silent Treatment and gave some sort of vague and short explanation.

The first time she basically said: it isn't because of you

The second time: it isn't personal

The third time was actually the most explanatory: that's when she said that only people very close to her knew about this Silent Treatment/NC of hers. She would ignore them because it was like a test. Trying to find out which people mattered to her. She would feel happy if she actually missed someone after a period of ST/NC. And eventually she would try to get in touch with them again.

This third time was actually quite recent and one of the best conversations I ever had with her. She didn't want to go anywhere, but just stay and talk. Too bad she still gave me the Silent Treatment almost directly afterwards.  :'(

I think that was just me coming too close to her emotional comfort zone. She 'exposed' herself in a way. Something which should have been hard for her. Which probably short-circuited in a way. Though it still hurts a lot. I told her that. Response: silence.

In bold.

I experienced all of that... .

Even in just being friends with her... .

As we got closer.

I experienced all of that... .

In Round 1... .

And in round 2.

She told me all of that.

Almost word for word.

That is BPD.

A pattern of behavior.

In bold/underlined.

I got that as a response too.

Silence.

It echoes still.

A hurt like no other.

[EdR]

Silent treatment is form of emotional abuse whereby someone is raging internally but deliberately chooses not to talk to you... just to punish you.

Thank you :-)

But the quote is actually the thing I'm struggling with. She never talked about her real feelings/emotions. So the fact that I did got some info out of her, and the info itself is actually something her friends wouldn't even believe.

There were 3 cases in which she broke the Silent Treatment and gave some sort of vague and short explanation.

The first time she basically said: it isn't because of you

The second time: it isn't personal

The third time was actually the most explanatory: that's when she said that only people very close to her knew about this Silent Treatment/NC of hers. She would ignore them because it was like a test. Trying to find out which people mattered to her. She would feel happy if she actually missed someone after a period of ST/NC. And eventually she would try to get in touch with them again.

This third time was actually quite recent and one of the best conversations I ever had with her. She didn't want to go anywhere, but just stay and talk. Too bad she still gave me the Silent Treatment almost directly afterwards.  :'(

I think that was just me coming too close to her emotional comfort zone. She 'exposed' herself in a way. Something which should have been hard for her. Which probably short-circuited in a way. Though it still hurts a lot. I told her that. Response: silence.

In bold.

I experienced all of that... .

Even in just being friends with her... .

As we got closer.

I experienced all of that... .

In Round 1... .

And in round 2.

She told me all of that.

Almost word for word.

That is BPD.

A pattern of behavior.

In bold/underlined.

I got that as a response too.

Silence.

It echoes still.

A hurt like no other.

I read the 'let me be' statement in your other post (different thread). I remember that as well. Almost forgot though... .

The similarities are reall scary :-(

A few years ago, I actually approached a counsellor in secret... told her a lot. Told her some specific traits and hoped she could help her. I just wanted her to start a conversation. Not putting labels on her or something... .

She (=the counsellor) didn't. I can't and don't want to give more details, but besides the (possible) Borderline she had every reason to contact her and find out what was going on. She also had that position. But she did nothing.

After that... I felt like it was my burden to bear. Again.

[Ironmanrises]

I felt like it was my burden to bear... .

Again.

I can understand and relate to that... .

Too.

Fighting fire with fire... .

I tried that.

In round 2... .

Of Devaluation... .

As she launched her missiles at me.

I tried to stand up for myself.

Deflected the missiles.

Tried to fire a few... .

In return... .

In her vicinity... .

To try and show... .

Her... .

What she was doing... .

To me.

Almost as if to say... .

I see you firing at me... .

I will fire some in return... .

Close enough... .

So you know... .

I am aware... .

Of what you are doing.

That got me this... .

In the end.

Waves of missiles... .

Innumerable.

There was no fighting that.

The moment she was triggered... .

This was going to be my ultimate fate... .

Again.

No more.

[blissful_camper]

I don't know what the alternative is.  I believe everyone on this forum tried their best to understand their partner wBPD, and implemented strategies to try to make the relationship work only to realize that it was futile. 

You can't reason with someone who is unreasonable.  You can't have healthy dialog with someone who is unable to 'fight fair' when challenges arise in a relationship, and they do in every relationship.  PwBPD fight dirty. 

I view challenges and conflict (in friendships or romantic relationships) as opportunities for growth and understanding.  When approached constructively, these challenges can foster intimacy.  This just isn't possible with a pwBPD.  They haven't the skills. 

NC isn't for everyone, but it was the only way (for me) to extricate myself from a very toxic situation.  I wish him well from afar, I feel compassion for him because I know that his inner world causes him so much grief.  During the relationship I tried to alleviate his suffering.  It became overwhelming.  I can do that no more. 

Nurturing them, fixing them, isn't our responsibility.  It's theirs. It's their burden. And if they recognize they have a problem (and some do) it's their responsibility to seek help, learn, and grow.  Our responsibility is to nurture our own sense of well being. 

NC facilitates my taking care of me.  I eat healthy, I hike, and engage in other activities that provide me with a sense of wellness.  I have good people in my life.  I don't want to spoil my life experience by allowing toxic people into my life.  Life is much too short for that. 

[DownandOut]

I posted my farewell/time for NC letter to my uBPDexgf a couple weeks ago here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=211563.0

Unfortunately, I do believe that that was the end for me because I basically shamed her into submission and she will likely never contact me again. It hurts because the more self-reflection I've done, the more I would like to at least smooth it over with her and leave her with some piece of mind even though she always messed with mine. I closed the door for good and it was the right choice for me, but the permanency with which I did it still leaves an open wound that I'm still waiting to heal.

[EdR]

Wow, took some courage to put that letter on a forum. Thank you for that. It's hard to read though, because I can feel the pain you were going through... .:-( 

But in a weird way, to be honest with you: she did reply in your case. Which imo would beat the devastating silence. Or the extreme abusive comments I sometimes read on this forum.

Maybe I'm reading too much into that reply, but given the BPD, I actually feel some twisted way of caring is being expressed. I feel like this was the best she could do... .given her BPD.

Still... .it isn't closure. So I guess it still hurts like hell. Closure is the one thing you (and I !) would probably want... .but I'm afraid we will never get it. Or at least not in the way we would want it. Imo closure comes from two sides... .but in the case of BPD it can probably only come from within ourselves. Though I know how to write that down, it will still take a while to actually truly believe it and be able to do that myself :-(

[blissful_camper]

I posted my farewell/time for NC letter to my uBPDexgf a couple weeks ago here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=211563.0

Unfortunately, I do believe that that was the end for me because I basically shamed her into submission and she will likely never contact me again. It hurts because the more self-reflection I've done, the more I would like to at least smooth it over with her and leave her with some piece of mind even though she always messed with mine. I closed the door for good and it was the right choice for me, but the permanency with which I did it still leaves an open wound that I'm still waiting to heal.

Once they are shamed into submission, that's it.  They've been exposed.  It's much easier for them to move on to someone else who doesn't know of their 'wiring problem' than it is to stay and face the damage they've created. Their may find piece of mind from denial, or avoidance.  In my experience, it was a build-up at his end of knowing he'd caused others pain (it was embarrassing for him) and much easier to run away.  I can relate to wanting to smooth it over because that's what people do who are healthy at their core (their essence).  I know what that wound feels like wanting that person to have some piece of mind, it saddens me to know that our relationship has added to his shame/embarrassment even though he created the dysfunction.  I think it's a beautiful thing that you've reached that place where you feel a level of compassion for her that you want to provide that.  It speaks volumes about your character.  I believe your compassion will eventually heal your open wound, even if that's not communicated to her.