Emotion = Fact?

[Border_Lover]

I have heard this a lot, and I do understand it, but am curious about how it works. Is it that they truly cannot see the truth because their emotion is so strong, or is it that their emotion is too strong to tell the truth, and because of this it does not matter that they are not telling the truth. Also are they later down the line aware that they lied? I see this quite often during dysregulation, but does it also occur during day to day conversation? I realize all this will most likely vary from person to person, but I am just trying to get a better idea about it, and if it's more likely one way or the other.

Also, if my uBPDgf is extremely dysregulated and is angry at her mother, but is kind to me during this time, and she says "I hate that I have to pretend to my mother and to you, just to get the support I need to live."  But later when I told her what she said, and she told me she must have projected it onto me also. Does this sound correct?

Thanks so much.

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[Chosen]

Hi and welcome, Border_Lover 

Imagine this scenario.  You are feeling unhappy, but you don't know the reason. 

Logical mind: I can't explain why, but I am unhappy.  It's probably irrational, but I'm unhappy anyhow.

pwBPD's mind:  I am unhappy, I didn't do anything to make me unhappy.  It is your fault because if I didn't cause it myself, it must be you/ somebody else.

I am no scientist, sorry, but what I think is that a pwBPD cannot accept that the may be wrong, irrational, or anything negative.  It hurts them too much.  This is why they misdirect their negative feelings a lot of times.  Also, if they claim to be feeling negative but can't explain it, they have to own up to it.  If they blame it on somebody/ something else, they can shift the responsbility.  They may not lie on purpose, but they do make illogical connections between "facts" and "emotions". 

A very real example will be, they feel attacked when speaking to you.  Maybe it's because of something you said that hits their fragile spot, but they can't admit they are fragile.  But since they feel attacked, it must be true... .therefore, they may come up with "facts" like "you looked at me wrong", "your tone was wrong" to rationalise their emotions.

[123Phoebe]

Hi Border_Lover  

You've raised a really good question about emotions = facts... .

From my understanding and how I'm able to wrap my head around this is to imagine a time when I was feeling so overwhelmed about something (feelings) that I just KNEW it had to be because of xyz (fact)... .

For example: My guy had other plans on a particular night that I really really really wanted to see him = He must be seeing someone else!  Why else wouldn't he want to spend time with me?  If he wasn't seeing someone else he WOULD want to be with me, so of course he must be seeing someone else.  

And the downward spiral continued... .

He doesn't care about me at all.  He's a jerk.  :)oes he think I'm ugly?  He must.  

And into the pit of despair I'd fall, feeling so lonely and unimportant.  And I don't have BPD   But all of those thoughts and feelings turned into facts, simply because he happened to have other plans on a particular night that I wanted to see him.  

Were my feelings real?  Yes.  Were the facts rational?  No.

Does that help to give you a little better understanding?

[dawnjd]

I am looking forward to reading more replies on this topic. I am currently dealing with this a lot right now. I am trying to be more open about my feelings, but I am finding that if my feeling isn't  a "pleasant" feeling for SO, then I get attacked.

Recently I said, "I am beginning to fear that we are heading in the direction of only staying together for our son." (in a discussion of wanting to work on our relationship)

Which SO has now been turned into: "You hate me, you think I am horrible, you are only with me for money, you are saying these things to hurt me." To him, these feelings are very real and scary. If what he saying about me the truth? NO.

[waverider]

The emotional part of the mind rings the alarm bells and starts knee jerk reactionary process.

The logical mind steps in and assesses the facts.

The resultant combined decision on what is really taking place is the wise mind.

In pwBPD the emotional mind is over active, the logical mind is diminished and often incapable if reigning in the emotional mind.

Hence the "wise mind" is distorted and skewed from reality.

emotional mind> I feel like am being abused

logical mind>this is not personally about me

Wise mind> I am being abused

BPD communication tool >use what ever words express what you feel best. Analogies are spoken as facts. It feels like being slapped> I was slapped

[briefcase]

Great question, and great answers. 

I don't feel loved = You don't love me.

I feel neglected = You neglect me.

I feel abandoned = You abandoned me.

I feel embarrassed = You embarrassed me.

I feel disappointed = You let me down. 

You can also insert some black and white thinking: You never loved me, You always neglect me.  Starting to sound familiar?

When we hear these things, we're often left scratching our heads and wondering where it all came from because the facts they express often don't match our reality.

[HopefulDad]

And it doesn't just go away with CBT or DBT.  Despite numerous sessions with our CBT and giving my BPDw tools to help separate emotions from facts, it's crystal clear to her in times of peace and self-reflection... .and all goes out the window in a triggered moment.

[waverider]

And it doesn't just go away with CBT or DBT.  Despite numerous sessions with our CBT and giving my BPDw tools to help separate emotions from facts, it's crystal clear to her in times of peace and self-reflection... .and all goes out the window in a triggered moment.

The hardest part about BPD is the lack of consistency, what is learned or experienced yesterday with insight goes out the window today when under duress. This is the main reason treatment takes so long and why behavior recycles itself even they have learned better how they should deal with it.

Sometimes having those lessons can make them feel worse as after the "episode" they feel even more of a failure. So it is common for things to get a lot worse before they get better during therapy. Acceptance of BPD in their eyes is validation that they are a failure, always have been and always will be. The more they recycle that behavior the more convinced they are that they wont improve. It is hard for them as the defensive delusions of denial are being stripped away

[Knowingishalf]

what I discovered with mine was they could be rational only when not being triggered.   When triggered, there is nothing rational about the response.  My wife can't keep from screaming curse words the moment something goes wrong, and nasty ones too but will scold anyone else from doing the same around our daughter.  This applies to everything the rational mind seems to get shut off the moment a trigger happens.  I think the worst thing was anything could be a trigger and it was different between days.  The best was after a triggered moment maybe the next day none of what you experienced even happened to them. Only to you.

[musicfan42]

The emotional part of the mind rings the alarm bells and starts knee jerk reactionary process.

The logical mind steps in and assesses the facts.

The resultant combined decision on what is really taking place is the wise mind.

In pwBPD the emotional mind is over active, the logical mind is diminished and often incapable if reigning in the emotional mind.

Hence the "wise mind" is distorted and skewed from reality.

emotional mind> I feel like am being abused

logical mind>this is not personally about me

Wise mind> I am being abused

BPD communication tool >use what ever words express what you feel best. Analogies are spoken as facts. It feels like being slapped> I was slapped

I thought that wise mind in DBT meant to signify a calm mindset that takes emotions and facts into consideration? I feel confused now. I want to understand this better though because my BPD ex actually said that I was "abusive" and "narcissistic". This was after I had criticized him-told him that he needed to work on his issues/life. I notice that borderlnes use a lot of loaded language... they seem to think of the worst label ever and just throw it at you.

The average person might feel defensive and blame me in an argument but it would be in a milder way. They might call me bossy/feisty (I've been called these terms before and whilst I dislike them, they're not as strong/harsh as "abusive/narcissistic". I felt very alarmed at being called "abusive" because it was completely illogical. I just expressed an opinion that he disliked-that was it. I understand that he didn't want to hear it-that he thought I was being hypercritical but it really was throwing a false allegation in my direction and that type of thing is very dangerous. It really scared me... .I wondered what he could accuse me of doing if he could somehow think that I was abusive.

It just makes me wonder whether borderlines are psychotic-they seem to be able to make up things that have no basis in reality... .

[waverider]

Possibly not clarified properly, in this case the "wise mind" is compromised / diminished (twisted) it is overly influenced by the emotional mind, the logical mind is taking a back seat.

It is the logical mind that stops the conversion from emotion into perceived fact

[musicfan42]

Thanks for the clarification waverider... .I see where you're coming from now.

[connect]

Waverider:

The emotional part of the mind rings the alarm bells and starts knee jerk reactionary process.

The logical mind steps in and assesses the facts.

The resultant combined decision on what is really taking place is the wise mind.

In pwBPD the emotional mind is over active, the logical mind is diminished and often incapable if reigning in the emotional mind.

Hence the "wise mind" is distorted and skewed from reality.

BPD communication tool >use what ever words express what you feel best. Analogies are spoken as facts. It feels like being slapped> I was slapped

Great post - I can really see how that would work - I might even use that description to speak to my bf as he would respond to that I think. He knows that his logical side doesnt dampen down his emotions when he needs it too. This is a good way to explain something that I couldn't quite put my finger on. Thanks