"Speaking different languages" makes understanding and resolution futile

[eyvindr]

In another thread over on the "Staying" board, DreamFlyer posted this response, and it got me thinking about my own ongoing challenge. DF was responding to another member's post about how pwBPD can take a response that they demand of you, and then turn around and use it as something to attack, or to attack you with -- basically, projection... .

Hergestridge, I think most of us on here are familiar with that dance and have dealt (or are dealing) with some version of that behavior. It's difficult because in the pwBPD's head, how they feel is really really true at that moment. I know I see with my own uBPDh that he can tell me the very next day that he doesn't really feel whatever way he said yesterday, but as yet he's unable to stop the rant that goes with his negative feelings. It must be really difficult in their heads! And it's definitely hard on our end since it seems we're talking different languages entirely.

For me, this continues to be one of the things I am most frustrated by in the aftermath of my r-ship. My ex was, in many ways, an atypical pwBPD -- if she even was one (she was never formally dx'd w/ BPD, to my knowledge) -- though she consistently exhibited the full range of symptoms associated with OCPD, many of ADHD, lots associated with anxiety disorder (sometimes at the level of PTSD), with chunks of schizoaffective disorder, histrionic personality disorder and, during her rages, NPD. All that, and you're asking why I still sometimes wonder? -- I say she was atypical b/c she didn't do the really awful horrible things that so many pwBPD routinely do -- namely, infidelity (though she has wrongly accused me of the same many times, and continues to do so, and insists that I have "smeared" her to my friends by telling such lies about her, which I have never done), and substance abuse (though she is highly medicated -- on everything EXCEPT psych meds -- daily uses a steroidal inhaler for asthma and allergies, and continually takes Allegra-D "to prevent flares" Also a MAJOR caffeine fiend, which she says she needs to offset her ADHD. Interestingly, since we split up (I left her), she has fully committed herself to splitting me, and has created quite a character study of me as an unmedicated bipolar abuser, as well as "alcoholic," "drug abuser," "emotionally abusive," "physically abusive" -- etc., etc., etc.  All of that latter stuff is pretty typical of NPD and BPD sufferers, from what I've studied -- but she seems blissfully unaware that her very actions are those of someone she's describing as someone else. Really twisted.

The frustration comes into play when I think back on how HUGE a deal she made about the importance of communication! Honestly, this can drive a person mad! I worry that, in future r-ships, I may literally run out of the room with no explanation if I ever experience that again -- but maybe it's exactly the right thing to do? In the end, I had to leave her because of this, and I did so quietly, without any fanfare... .I simply stopped responding to her. Which she touts as one of my countless "heinous" assaults against her. When, simply, I grew sick of being unfairly and inaccurately portrayed by the person I most loved as some kind of uncaring monster who made it a mission to make her miserable.

Hell yeah, I left, and I'd do it again. Breaking up with someone who assumes that one of the perks of being in a committed, long-term monogamous r-ship is that you can mistreat your lover as much as you like isn't a crime. I should have done it sooner. But I finally did it. I got sick of hearing her beg me to stay in the aftermath of yet one more painful senseless argument that SHE started -- always rooted in how I was failing to do something, or be someone, or give something that EVERYONE else would know how to do/be/give -- it was always just me who was clueless, lousy, ineffective -- in short, disappointing. It wasn't something I was willing to live with.

What I'm working on now is this: what the hell is it in me that cares SO much about disappointing my lover (because it only manifests itself in my romantic r-ships -- not with family, or friends, or colleagues) that I've been willing to accept really miserable treatment from someone I should be able to count on to do the opposite?

[Clearmind]

In romantic relationships there is more emotional risk. Our romantic relationships/relationship dynamic tends to mirror our parents relationship dynamic. The relationship with friends tends to mirror the dynamic we have with our siblings.

We speak up less because there is more at stake and the triggers are more apparent because they are sparked from childhood. If I set boundaries with my BPDex he would have left me thereby sparking and triggering my own abandonment fears – the fear of him leaving and fear of me being triggered far outweighed my fear of letting him get away with abusing me.

It’s really astounding how some of us (including me) have in the past persisted with someone who showed me little or no respect. Why did I care? I believe my childhood dictated that I persist regardless because that was what I was taught.

I continued to hold onto the faulty belief that I must hang in there and support until the nth degree despite how I am treated. My father was an alcoholic and strong BPD traits – as I child I mirrored my parents relationship dynamic and their relationship skills. My mother was an enabler. If my mother had set boundaries with my father very early on as an adult I would have come to realize that its normal to set boundaries and its normal that most folks don’t like boundaries – however it would have been the norm.

Shame I believe is the biggest hurdle for many of us to overcome. Feelings of shame and lack of worthiness go hand in hand. A person who feels worthy would never dream of allowing someone to cut them down.

“You don’t have to feel guilty about removing toxic people from your life. It doesn’t matter whether someone is a relative, romantic interest, employer, childhood friend or a new acquaintance – You don’t have to make room for people who cause you pain and make you feel small. Its on thing if a person owns up to their behaviour and makes an effort to change. But if a person disregards your feelings, ignores your boundaries and continues to treat you in a harmful way, they need to go ~ Danielle Koepke”

eyvindr, have you explored your family dynamics/family of origin?

[eyvindr]

Clearmind --

Yeah, Grey Kitty raised that on a separate thread -- and I'll repost my response here, as it fits, with some additional thoughts, as it is something I keep thinking about.

I was the oldest of 8 kids. So, looking at it purely from a practical perspective, I can't imagine that I ever got what would be considered a "standard" degree of attention from my mom once I was beyond the age of 2 or 3. And not due to any kind of neglect on my mother's part -- she truly was just was busy with the youngsters! In analyzing this, I had a small epiphany moment once -- maybe on some unconscious level I am drawn to and respond to women who give me all of their attention -- ? maybe to compensate for the attention I didn't get from my mom when I was a kid -- ?

I don't know. That hypothesis sounds great on paper, but it doesn't really resonate with me in my core. In thinking more about it, and reading about BPD and personality orders in general -- I started to see lots of similarities between myself, the kinds of relationships I've been in and the "Caretaker" personality -- as opposed to the more familiar codependent personality type. I've realized for some time that I was cast into a caretaking role when I was a young kid. Again, as the oldest child, and the oldest son, and due simply to limited staffing resources  , I was regularly charged with keeping watch over my younger sibs. While I didn't choose the role, and actually kind of balk at it, consciously, I can see where it might be possible that I keep assuming the role as an adult. Is that because I've been conditioned to expect this out of life -- ? Are our behaviors that programmed? even when we're aware of the concept? I know I don't look for these opportunities -- I don't seek it out -- in fact, I purposely look for the opposite! When anyone openly tells me that they pretty much rely on everyone around them to get by, I pretty much immediately put space between myself and that person.

Still, it does seems that I get sucked into being the caretaker in all of my romantic r-ships -- I truly felt, at times, in my past two, that I was dating a child! But, by the time I reach this point, and realize what's happening, I then have difficulty removing myself from it, out of some sense of moral obligation. The programming, I think, is this: you don't bail on people you love when things get difficult.

It's something I've tried to work on with 2 therapists so far. We don't ever seem to get anywhere beyond this -- except the old "well, maybe that's it." Yay... .kinda was hoping for a little more for my hard-earned health insurance dollar.

Honestly, this piece of me is continues to baffle me.

Appreciate all feedback.

[Supernova9star]

Clearmind --

Yeah, Grey Kitty raised that on a separate thread -- and I'll repost my response here, as it fits, with some additional thoughts, as it is something I keep thinking about.

I was the oldest of 8 kids. So, looking at it purely from a practical perspective, I can't imagine that I ever got what would be considered a "standard" degree of attention from my mom once I was beyond the age of 2 or 3. And not due to any kind of neglect on my mother's part -- she truly was just was busy with the youngsters! In analyzing this, I had a small epiphany moment once -- maybe on some unconscious level I am drawn to and respond to women who give me all of their attention -- ? maybe to compensate for the attention I didn't get from my mom when I was a kid -- ?

I don't know. That hypothesis sounds great on paper, but it doesn't really resonate with me in my core. In thinking more about it, and reading about BPD and personality orders in general -- I started to see lots of similarities between myself, the kinds of relationships I've been in and the "Caretaker" personality -- as opposed to the more familiar codependent personality type. I've realized for some time that I was cast into a caretaking role when I was a young kid. Again, as the oldest child, and the oldest son, and due simply to limited staffing resources  , I was regularly charged with keeping watch over my younger sibs. While I didn't choose the role, and actually kind of balk at it, consciously, I can see where it might be possible that I keep assuming the role as an adult. Is that because I've been conditioned to expect this out of life -- ? Are our behaviors that programmed? even when we're aware of the concept? I know I don't look for these opportunities -- I don't seek it out -- in fact, I purposely look for the opposite! When anyone openly tells me that they pretty much rely on everyone around them to get by, I pretty much immediately put space between myself and that person.

Still, it does seems that I get sucked into being the caretaker in all of my romantic r-ships -- I truly felt, at times, in my past two, that I was dating a child! But, by the time I reach this point, and realize what's happening, I then have difficulty removing myself from it, out of some sense of moral obligation. The programming, I think, is this: you don't bail on people you love when things get difficult.

It's something I've tried to work on with 2 therapists so far. We don't ever seem to get anywhere beyond this -- except the old "well, maybe that's it." Yay... .kinda was hoping for a little more for my hard-earned health insurance dollar.

Honestly, this piece of me is continues to baffle me.

Appreciate all feedback.

I have that same mentality. Just because it gets tough doesn't mean you should give up on someone you love. It took 8 years for me to see that me being there wasn't making anything better. But I still feel guilty, like I failed or something. I mean I know he is so tormented. And I have always believed love could conquer all. This relationship has shattered me to the core.

[Clearmind]

If needs are not met as children we attempt to gain validation via fixing as adults. We assume the role of the little adult early! This was certainly true for me.

Some of us need to be needed and we equate love with this fact. Love is not need. My suggestion would be to find your own self before diving into a relationship. What is it you want for you? Once we build our own sense of self and worth we find a compatible mate who is wanting to do the same for themselves.

Relationships take time to build. Inquire, ask questions, take note of actions in the beginning stages rather than get wrapped up in the romance of it all Look out for:

How does she talk to her parents?

How does she talk about her parents?

Is she attentive when you speak about a concern? Or does she want to fix it for you?

Does she show herself respect, set boundaries?

What are her friends like?

How does she talk about her friends?

All these questions will help you see what type of person she is. If she speaks ill of others or treats others with disrespect then she will do the same to you down the track.

Finding a compatible mate takes time – we cannot mould one to fit our ideal.

Great book: “He’s Scared, She’s Scared - Understanding the Hidden Fears That Sabotage Your Relationships"” by Steven Carter, with Julia Sokol is a fabulous book.

Often when we date those that need care taking we ourselves are fearful of not only intimacy but of commitment. We are in fact emotionally unavailable and an emotionally unavailable person will generally only attract someone who needs caretaking. They are a "perfect" match! Emotionally available people are not fearful of showing intimacy, showing vulnerbilties and showing shame - we are open - folks who are open to vulnerbility form better connections (based on worthiness) with others - they do not fear being cut down because they choose a supportive mate.

It stands to reason that if we are caretakers as children/the little adult we don’t know how to take care of our needs and we do fear closeness with others – we are not use to it because we have controlled the closeness as children.

[eyvindr]

A lot to think about, but still not "feeling" it.

Often when we date those that need care taking we ourselves are fearful of not only intimacy but of commitment. We are in fact emotionally unavailable and an emotionally unavailable person will generally only attract someone who needs caretaking. They are a "perfect" match! Emotionally available people are not fearful of showing intimacy, showing vulnerabilties and showing shame - we are open - folks who are open to vulnerability form better connections (based on worthiness) with others - they do not fear being cut down because they choose a supportive mate.

It stands to reason that if we are caretakers as children/the little adult we don’t know how to take care of our needs and we do fear closeness with others – we are not use to it because we have controlled the closeness as children.

It does stand to reason, and it does make sense -- no argument there. But I don't think I fear commitment -- though I do have a fear of commitment to the wrong person, or r-ship, or of committing to one thing but finding out too late that it's something else. It's proven to be a pretty healthy fear, in that it's kept me from getting serious with 2 people who had some pretty disruptive issues, and from marrying 2 others with blatant untreated mental illness.

But, those 2 whom I didn't marry -- I was committed to them, and intended to marry them -- if we'd been able to work through our r-ships' difficulties. In both cases, neither person stepped up to the plate to deal with their own issues -- the best they would do was couples counselling (and how much of a  is couples counselling before you're married?), and they wouldn't even stick with that. I did both -- the couples bit, and my own solo deal. At some point, you get tired of feeling like you're the only one willing to do the work, and your partner is just paying lip-service to the whole thing, while changing nothing about their behaviors or their contributions to the r-ship.

But, commitment? Don't think it's my issue, really. I was married before. I've only had long-term monogamous romantic r-ships. I raised a son as a single parent. I've had a career in my field for over 20 yrs. I have long-standing, healthy r-ships with friends from as far back as grade school. I'm still connected to and in touch with my FOO. I don't think it's commitment for me.