Really in need of some moral support

[nevaeh]

I posted on another thread but go no responses so I'll try putting this in a new thread.

H and I had a fight on Sunday because I called him on something he did/said to our S12.  The moment I "disagreed" with him he started throwing things around and yelling at me.  Then he gathered up all of his clothes, and everything else from the bathroom that he uses and took everything down to the guest room.  In the heat of the argument I asked if he was moving out and then said that he was welcome to do that.  He then asked if I wanted a divorce to which I replied, "yes, and I'm not even kidding".  He went on to tell me how rotten our S12 is and that he basically doesn't care if S12 doesn't like being yelled at or called names or sworn at... .it's the only way S12 will listen and that's what he is going to do.  I basically told him that he can choose to parent in any way he "wants" to, but that if S12 has no respect for him then there will be no change in behavior on either side.  H wants to control S12 because he thinks that S12 needs to be constantly controlled (he has ADD and has always been our "high maintenance" child).  However, S12 has straight As and is a really good kid and I think it's OK to give him some leeway to make his own decisions. 

H was basically silent from Sunday night until last night, and he slept in the guest room for 3 nights.  He sent me a couple text messages about kids sporting event stuff but other than that we didn't talk at all.  There was no interacting with me.  As always, I'm not sure if he's mad at me or himself so I always leave him alone when he goes silent for fear that if he's mad at me I'm poking the dragon.

I have been planning on telling H I no longer want to be with him sometime in November.  I haven't seen a L yet so I'm not as far into planning as I would like to be but this situation seems to be setting me up to make this happen.

Yesterday was our youngest son's birthday and I invited my parents over for dinner so S9 could open his gifts.  I sent H a text to tell him what was going on and I got a reply.  "OK, that sounds good.  Thanks for everything you do"  I was in a meeting when I got this text and immediately lost my train of thought.  Nine words and I realize that H is now planning on being done with the silent treatment and he will be apologizing and expecting that everything will go back to "normal".  I was immediately sick to my stomach because I don't WANT him to apologize and expect things to go back to normal.  I HATE this stupid cycle and I want it to be done!

Went home, made dinner and conversed with parents and enjoyed celebrating S9's bday.  Parents left and bedtime came.  Went in to the bathroom and noticed that H had moved all of his stuff back in.  I'm so upset at this point.  I'm dreading going to bed, knowing that he is going to apologize and he is going to want to hold me, etc. and maybe even want sex.

So, went to bed.  Sure enough he came to bed a few minutes later and immediately grabbed me and gave me a hug and apologized.  I found myself apologizing as well and he replied that it was all on him.  He's wanting to hold me and snuggle me and all I feel is that it feels like he is trying to hold on to me for dear life, like's he's falling off a cliff and I'm the only thing stopping him.  I have no words.  I didn't want to talk about it.  I didn't want to tell him anything encouraging.  I didn't want to be up all night talking about it.  I didn't want to talk about the divorce comment or the fact that he slept downstairs for 3 nights and all of a sudden decides it's OK to come back to our bed without even asking me how I felt!  I just stayed silent and waited for him to go to sleep so I could get some rest.  Thankfully he didn't ask for sex last night but I know that is coming because that's our cycle.  Another 2 nights or so and he will feel like all of this has blown over and everything is back to normal and it's OK for him to expect sex again.

Do you all ever feel like you're watching this happen as thought you're a spectator?  I am so mad at myself for not being able to just say I'm done!  I have the perfect opportunity in front of me and I feel like everything that is happening is just our cycle and it will go this way no matter what I do.  The only thing that can stop it is ME, and I'm just sitting by watching it happen, again, for the 1000th time. 

I have to be in the car with him for two hours by myself tonight while we drive to our daughter's sporting event.  I am dreading it because I don't want to talk to him.  I don't think it's a good idea to tell him what I'm thinking while we are driving on the interstate (for safety reasons and the fact that we are going to our daughter's game and it might be hard to compose ourselves if I've just told him I want a divorce).  But, if I don't say anything then I will be stuck making small talk or (gasp) even having to discuss what happened on Sunday.  I would put money on it that he will spend the whole car ride talking about our "future" plans (he has a big investment in a rental facility that he wants to make), and I will get put on the spot about whether I'm interested in doing it.  It's a way of covertly manipulating me to forgetting about what just happened.  I'm just as guilty of perpetuating this as he is of doing it.  I am almost in a panic about tonight because I don't know what to do! 

I really could use some moral support or advice... .whatever... .on how to help myself get through the next few days.

Thanks all...

[maxen]

hi javamom.

I have to be in the car with him for two hours by myself tonight while we drive to our daughter's sporting event.  I am dreading it because I don't want to talk to him.  I don't think it's a good idea to tell him what I'm thinking while we are driving on the interstate (for safety reasons and the fact that we are going to our daughter's game and it might be hard to compose ourselves if I've just told him I want a divorce).  But, if I don't say anything then I will be stuck making small talk or (gasp) even having to discuss what happened on Sunday.  I would put money on it that he will spend the whole car ride talking about our "future" plans (he has a big investment in a rental facility that he wants to make), and I will get put on the spot about whether I'm interested in doing it.  It's a way of covertly manipulating me to forgetting about what just happened.  I'm just as guilty of perpetuating this as he is of doing it.  I am almost in a panic about tonight because I don't know what to do! 

I really could use some moral support or advice... .whatever... .on how to help myself get through the next few days.

Thanks all...

if i have read things right, it seems you need to do some things on a quick schedule.

i would say:

1: do not bring divorce up in the car

2: if he brings up the rental property, try as well as you can to postpone (has he actually put the money into it yet?)

3: make an appt with a matrimonial/divorce lawyer for an initial consultation. it may help clarify your feelings. mine, at least, has been patient and helpful with my situation and even has agreed that part of her job is as a therapist.

4: btw, has he ever considered therapy?

[nevaeh]

if i have read things right, it seems you need to do some things on a quick schedule.

i would say:

1: do not bring divorce up in the car = I agree, I don't think this would be a good idea!

2: if he brings up the rental property, try as well as you can to postpone (has he actually put the money into it yet?) = He has not put any money into this yet but its something he really wants to do and has been talking about it for around 2 years now.  H will ask me if I'm interested in doing it (significant investment that would required us taking equity out of our house) I am stuck because if I agree he might actually do it but if I disagree then he will be super mad and we will end up having a huge fight over it and will end up doing it anyway because he is the master of manipulating me and I'm the master of giving in and letting him have his way because it is easier.

3: make an appt with a matrimonial/divorce lawyer for an initial consultation. it may help clarify your feelings. mine, at least, has been patient and helpful with my situation and even has agreed that part of her job is as a therapist.  I have pulled out our employee assistance program materials and found that I can get a free consultation with an attorney and also 25% off fees so I am going to make that call today.

4: btw, has he ever considered therapy?  Three years ago I told him I wanted a divorce and he fell apart, almost quite literally.  It was awful.  I shared the walking on eggshells book with him and told him I thought he should look into it.  He found a T through his employee assistance program and went the allowed 3 times but in the end didn't think she helped him at all and he also decided that BPD was not "him".  I have also begged him to try medication to help even his moods and calm his temper but he refuses, siting his position in the military as a reason.  He says that if he is on meds he could be discharged because he is "non-deployable".  I call BS, but he insists its true.  I gave up on the medication conversation years ago.  I have been on antidepressants for the past 9 years (and he says I shouldn't be taking them)... .wouldn't have to if not for BPD craziness.

[2pts]

Hi Javamom.

":)o you all ever feel like you're watching this happen as thought you're a spectator?  I am so mad at myself for not being able to just say I'm done!  I have the perfect opportunity in front of me and I feel like everything that is happening is just our cycle and it will go this way no matter what I do.  The only thing that can stop it is ME, and I'm just sitting by watching it happen, again, for the 1000th time. "

I felt like that so many times, like there was a script written and no matter how I changed my lines, my xpwBPD would continue with her lines and the show would go on. A few weeks ago during her rage, I was basically disassociated from her rage, breathing deeply and calmly, then that thought of the script entered my mind and I laughed. You could imagine how that went over.

I agree with what Maxen said.

I'm giving you a virtual hug, hang in there.

I'm not sure if this is good advice or bad, but my suggestion is to think of it as protecting your children, they are to young to help themselves. As a parent of two young daughters with my separated non BPD wife, I was / am concerned that if I had stayed with my recent dpwBPDexgf, it may have serious repercussions on their mental well being as adults.

Again, hugs and best of luck

[nevaeh]

I finally got up the courage to set up a consultation with a lawyer on Monday afternoon.  I just need to keep moving ahead.

I also am waiting to hear back from a therapist to get a time set up.  I was referred to her by our employee assistance program.  I was reading through her credentials and one of her "specialties" is BPD (treatment).  Hopefully she will be able to help me get this going and stay on track this time.

[maxen]

I finally got up the courage to set up a consultation with a lawyer on Monday afternoon.  I just need to keep moving ahead.

I also am waiting to hear back from a therapist to get a time set up.  I was referred to her by our employee assistance program.  I was reading through her credentials and one of her "specialties" is BPD (treatment).  Hopefully she will be able to help me get this going and stay on track this time.

movement! remember, it's just a consultation. and it's free.

you should go over to the law boards here (also L3). there are some very knowledgable posters.

i got my lawyer through my therapist, and now i have a sort of team. that feeling helps.

lean on the therapist as much as you need to. that's their job.

2: if he brings up the rental property, try as well as you can to postpone (has he actually put the money into it yet?) = He has not put any money into this yet but its something he really wants to do and has been talking about it for around 2 years now.  H will ask me if I'm interested in doing it (significant investment that would required us taking equity out of our house) I am stuck because if I agree he might actually do it but if I disagree then he will be super mad and we will end up having a huge fight over it and will end up doing it anyway because he is the master of manipulating me and I'm the master of giving in and letting him have his way because it is easier.

well that is a tough one i'd agree.

[nevaeh]

Just as I thought, literally 5 minutes in to the car ride, H started talking about his investment prospect and went on for at least 30 minutes about how much he wants to do it.  Talked about all of his plans to make it work, including the huge equity loan he wants to take out of our house.  Talked about how it would be a GOOD thing for our future and our retirement.  Talked about how it would be good for our kids because they could help with it and learn work ethic.  It went on and on and on.  I didn't encourage him aside from just nodding and agreeing with what he said.  I tried to keep the conversation very basic and continually tried to steer away from any talk about our future, especially this investment. 

There was no acknowledgment or question from him about the actual prospect of "our" future (i.e. whether there even was one).  There has been no acknowledgment of my comment about divorce the other night.  There has been no discussion about why he moved to the guest room for 3 nights - just one apology from him saying he was wrong.  In fairness to him, I'm not bringing these things up either.  I have resigned myself to the fact that I'm done with this marriage so it's not worth it for me to have the discussion.  If he were at all concerned about where I am at emotionally (he should be, because I am silent much of the time unless he speaks to me), I would think he would be asking if I was OK and what could he do to help me.  Either he is completely oblivious or he is hoping that it will just go away like it always has in the past.  I vote for the latter as being the case.

I have an appointment with an attorney for a 30-minute consultation on Monday and my first therapy appointment next Thursday.  H has to work all weekend so I am going to try and get some things in order because I see this happening sooner rather than later.  I just don't feel like I can take another day of this.  I want him away from me.  I don't want to see him every day or talk to him every day.  I don't want him to touch me or have any expectations of me. 

I'm getting closer... .I am determined to move ahead and not let myself get derailed by him again.

[DragoN]

 

We are living parallel emotional lives. Strength to you.

I am waiting to drop the bomb at a slightly better time. I can't imagine that mine doesn't know about the divorce currently in progress, but, he is also very good at bluffing albeit his body language tells the real tale. Silence is yet the other half of the story.

I'm getting closer... .I am determined to move ahead and not let myself get derailed by him again.

Protect yourself first though. Legally etc.

And get yourself a tiny recording device, just in case he goes off his rocker. May come in handy down the line.

[nevaeh]

Thanks H20... .

You are so right that I need to think very carefully as I move ahead.  There is a part of me that just wants to get on with it.  But with the chance of him becoming brutal during divorce proceedings I know that I need to protect myself legally.

I have 3 kids that I have to protect and can't exactly do anything "quick" because of them.  I don't know yet if leaving our home is the only way to ensure I don't have to live with him (i.e. not sure if I can legally require him to leave our home).  If that is the case then I will need to have a backup plan so that I can get away from him.  I will be spending the weekend trying to remove things that are valuable to me (pictures, etc) but have to be careful not to make it obvious (to him).

Custody and finances are my primary concerns for my meeting on Monday.  Although I have a good job and would do fine on my own, I also need to make sure that H is paying his fair share for kids, etc.  We will likely have to sell our home as we have a ton of equity in it and I can't afford to buy him out of the mortgage without having all of my money tied up in a house payment.  Our house is expensive in our area and I'm concerned it won't sell quickly.  I don't think my kids will have any interest in me having shared custody with H.  My older two, in particular, really don't like him all that much.  I'm hoping like crazy that I can get sole primary custody with him getting visitation only.  My kids are old enough that hopefully their wishes will be taken in to consideration.  I don't have issues with them eventually spending time with their dad, I just don't want to be in a situation where they live with him on a semi-regular basis.  They will be miserable and so will I.  All things to discuss with the lawyer. 

Are you already in the process of filing for divorce?  Just curious because you say that you think he must know about it because of body language, etc.  Are you currently working with a lawyer?  If so, how did you take care of retainers/fees without your H knowing?  We have the money for a retainer but the moment I take it from the account he will know about it.  If necessary I will borrow the money from my parents as I know they will be willing to help me.  I have to ask the lawyer on Monday if it is advised to have all of the paperwork done before he is served with papers.  I think in my case it might be easier to just give him the paperwork and already be in the process as opposed to telling him I want a divorce and that I'm going to see a lawyer.  More opportunities for him to emotionally torture me and try to get me to change my mind.

I should get a recording device for my S12 - he is the one that H can be most brutal to (verbally).  Not sure I would really do this but something like this would probably go a long way in proving how lacking he is with his parenting skills.

Thanks for your reply... .you are right, we are living in parallel worlds... .

[DragoN]

Custody and finances are my primary concerns for my meeting on Monday.  Although I have a good job and would do fine on my own, I also need to make sure that H is paying his fair share for kids,

Fair enough. They are also his children.

$$  Cash. Can't trace cash. Paper work and retainer were sent in September. Now I wait. It's a complicated situation.

Divorce was H idea. I agreed. And followed through. Bluffing me is not a good idea. And I am tired of it all.

He then asked if I wanted a divorce to which I replied, "yes, and I'm not even kidding".

Interesting how he projected that on you , same as mine did. Now you and I are the wicked witches. He wants the divorce for whatever reasons, but will not initiate either due to fear of abandonment or he has not lined up a replacement. Either way, I am done. How much more of my/ your life are we supposed to waste on PD insanity?

Strength and wish a good lawyer to you

[nevaeh]

My H tracks "his" money very carefully.  Taking any significant amount of cash out of our savings account will definitely tip him off.  The retainer for the attorney I am seeing on Monday is around $2000-$3000. 

During our argument on Sunday, H started "packing up" his clothes and all of his bathroom stuff and I asked him if he was moving out... .and that if he was I was OK with it.  To which he replied ":)o you want a divorce" and I said yes.

I'm not sure if H really does want a divorce because he "needs" us too much.  He needs the idea of us.  H needs to feel like he is taking care of us (mostly financially, because he is completely incapable of taking care of us emotionally).  He needs us to keep his image of being a great family man, good provider, etc.  He has a persona in the community that he needs to keep up.  I suspect he definitely has narcissistic tendencies as well.  I feel like H would rather live in this miserable marriage than to face the fact that HE really isn't happy either.  The last time I told him I wanted a divorce (3 years ago) he had a complete meltdown and I didn't follow through because of his promises to "get better".  This is why I know in my heart of hearts that I CANNOT live under the same roof with him after the divorce bomb has dropped. 

I do know that when I finally proceed with the divorce there will be come mix between emotional meltdown (sadness) and rage.  I wish I could predict what it would be.  The uncertainty has not been my friend in all of this.  I certainly WILL be the bad guy. 

[DragoN]

He needs us to keep his image of being a great family man, good provider, etc.  He has a persona in the community that he needs to keep up.  I suspect he definitely has narcissistic tendencies as well.  I feel like H would rather live in this miserable marriage than to face the fact that HE really isn't happy either.

Very similar. And no, he is not happy. How could he be? He's married to me for heaven's sakes.   

I do know that when I finally proceed with the divorce there will be come mix between emotional meltdown (sadness) and rage.  I wish I could predict what it would be.  The uncertainty has not been my friend in all of this.  I certainly WILL be the bad guy. 

True, Satan has many sisters it seems. Doesn't matter what we do or how hard we worked at it, it comes down to the same thing.

What's with them and the lies about therapy is what I want to know. I know it's the carrot, that keeps us coming back, but still, why would they not actually want it? Duh! PD'd. I know the answer. It's my fault. Round and round a person can go with that one.

    me and my 

[nevaeh]

What's with them and the lies about therapy is what I want to know. I know it's the carrot, that keeps us coming back, but still, why would they not actually want it? Duh! PD'd. I know the answer. It's my fault. Round and round a person can go with that one.

Well... .I have a theory about that (I probably can't claim this as my own, I probably read it somewhere), but it's what I have also come to a conclusion about as it relates to my husband. 

I think they DO want the therapy.  It sounds like a good idea and if it could fix their problems then why wouldn't they do it?  They have to realize at least on some level that they are broken.  But when they actually start going to therapy they realize that there is work involved, and thinking, and acceptance of things that they don't want to think about let alone accept.  It's not easy.  It's not like taking an aspirin to make your headache go away.  I remember after one of my H's (3-4) therapy sessions I asked him how it went and he said he was irritated because she wanted him to talk about his childhood and his past.  He didn't understand how that mattered.

I also remember him being stumped by a simple question that his T asked him... .

"What is it you want or hope to accomplish by coming to these appointments"

H actually sent me this question in an email after his appointment and said that he didn't know how to answer it so he wanted me to tell him what *I* wanted.  I refused to answer telling him that HE needed to figure that out for himself.  The response that he came up with, on his own, was that he wanted to figure out how to get me to stay with him.  No acknowledgement that he needed to fix himself or find out why he has a horrible temper or zero patience or says horrible mean emotionally abusive things to the ones he says he loves the most. 

H asked me repeatedly... ."what do you want me to do?  what do you want from me?"  I would respond that I have told him over and over where my issues were (anger/emotional abuse/swearing/name calling) and that I felt he needed to figure out how to "fix" that or at least figure out why he does it and face it.  I told him through the month or so that he was going to therapy that I felt he was leaning too much on me to tell him what he needed to fix and that he wouldn't be able to face his problems if he couldn't even recognize what they were.


One other poignant conversation that took place the last time I told him I wanted a divorce... .

I stated to H that I don't NEED him.  He was greatly offended by that statement.  I explained further that I don't need him to feel happy, to be a good parent, to be a good wife, etc.  It was beyond his comprehension how this could be true because he stated that he NEEDED me and the kids to be in his life.  That without us, he is nothing.  To him that meant that he loved us WAY more than I loved him.  I tried to explain that in my opinion, NEED does not equal LOVE.  NEED means something completely different.

I personally WANT to have a husband who I love; I WANT to share my life with someone who I love; I WANT to raise my kids with him... .WANTING those things means that I have to work for them, so that they will both come to fruition and so that those relationships continue to be developed and enhanced.

NEED implies something completely different.  If you need someone in your life in order to be happy then there is something lacking in your heart.  I explained to him that he had to learn how to be his own person... .that he had to figure out what it meant to be happy in his OWN heart... .and only then did I think that he could move from NEEDING us to wanting us in his life.  He could never wrap his head around this concept.  I think he is incapable of understanding it, which to me shows the very root of his problem/PD.

As H and I have grown apart over the years, my level of WANTING him in my life has diminished to zero and his level of NEEDING us in his life has grown exponentially.  I used to want things to work with him and I stayed with him for that reason - I just wasn't ready to give up on us yet.  I am there now.

I also don't think they "intentionally" wave the therapy carrot in front of us.  I actually don't think my H "consciously" manipulates me or tries to make me feel bad (or the kids).  It's just the way he learned to deal with things and it's in his DNA... .and I have enabled his behavior for 23 years.  So much of what they do is not necessarily done "on purpose" - at least, that's my opinion/experience.  It sure feels that way when its happening but I just don't believe it to be true.  That's what makes it so sad.  They really are like a small child - sometimes I look at my husband and all I can see is a little boy who is emotionally incapable of understanding what he is doing to his loved ones, incapable of understanding that he needs help, and most of all, sad and desperate because all they think they love is slipping away from them.  It's easy to hate my husband for what he does... .it's very hard when I look at him and see that small child... .

[maxen]

i'm not in you guys's shoes, and i really can't speak about what you feel you need to do. however, in june my uBPD wife came home from work and dropped the bomb, announcing that the marriage wasn't working for her, there was somebody else, and drove away to live with that person. i've seen her twice since. looking back, there were signs that i could have taken for unhappiness (body language being one), but i had no reason to think they were anything but transitory. she only once voiced anything explicitly and then agreed to work on things. instead, she betrayed me. i have never once used vulgarities, threatened, or degraded her, but i have lost my temper a few times when my 40-something wife persistently wouldn't do things that are expected of the middle-schoolers i teach.

i'm 56, have no sibs, have depression, and care for a delusional parent. she doesn't have to stay with me on those accounts, but simple moral development requires honesty. maybe it's required a little more for a person in my position. i wanted her, but i needed my marriage too, and there's nothing inferior about needing a marriage. it was a refuge for me, among many other things. my heart was blown to bits, my mind has come close to cracking, i had serious suicidal ideation. i just don't know what the future holds.

so when i hear phrases like "drop the bomb" or "i can't imagine he doesn't know," i actually get a pang of sympathy. make an explicit final attempt. maybe you have already, in which case yours is not the same bomb that was dropped on me.

[nevaeh]

Maxen... .

So sorry if anything I said was hurtful to you.  In my case I will be the one leaving my uBPDh.  I also know that for many of us on this board, it is actually the BPD that does the leaving.  There are times that I WISH that my H would be the one to leave.  However, I also understand that if he were the one to leave it would mean that I am still invested in trying to make the marriage work and it would be extremely hurtful. 

I know that when I tell my husband I want a divorce he will fall apart.  I realize that I will be taking everything from him and it won't matter that he shares equal "blame" in the events leading up to our separation... .from his viewpoint he will see only what he wants to see.  I will be blamed. 

I have 18 years of "trying" behind me.  I last told H I wanted a divorce 3 years ago and he promised to get better but he didn't.  And, despite all of that, the one thing that has kept me from leaving him before is the sorrow and empathy I feel for him.

My H had a minimum of 3 affairs while we were married.  I know the extreme hurt that can cause in a person.  When you say that your W left with her "somebody else", my heart breaks.  I am so sorry for the hurt your wife caused you.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Your point is well taken and I feel like I can walk away from my marriage knowing that I tried as much as I could try to make this work.  I just didn't get an equal amount of trying from the other side.

Again, I apologize if anything that was said was hurtful to you.   

[maxen]

well truthfully i'm not finger pointing and i hope nobody took it as that. i am a bit raw.

[nevaeh]

Thanks, Maxen.  I am glad to hear that.  There have been a few posts on here that hit me hard/made me trigger in a negative way and I know how hard that can be.  I was thinking about your situation over the weekend and wondering what it would be like to have your spouse just leave out of the blue.  My H and I have always had a rough relationship and I think I would never have been shocked if he said he wanted out.  I also always had this weird "comfort" knowing that he wouldn't ever be the one to leave... .it would have to be me.

I am so sad for what you have gone through with your wife.  I hope that you are doing OK... .