At the limit of what I will accept

[allibaba]

For today, my husband is very calm and peaceful.  He has clearly stated that he is choosing his own mental illness over our son and I and that he is looking for a place to live.  The situation will probably change 100 times but I am ok what that.

If he moves out and finds peace on his own.

If he moves out and destroys himself.

If he moves out and finds someone else to feed his illness (ie another woman)

If he moves out and hits bottom and gets help and it works and we get back together.

If he moves out and hits bottom and gets help and it doesn't work and we get divorced.

Or if he says he is going to move out and then we proceed to go back and forth like a yo-yo and he threatens to throw me out or gets crazy (this is the likely next step)  

I am literally at peace with every one of these options.  I know what I need to do.  He is looking for money to buy a house (I am ok with that as well) but it would come with the signing of a separation agreement so that I am protected.  If things don't turn out the way that I want, I will go through my grief then.  Today I need to take action (ha ha in this case just stick to action already taken).

Surnia mentioned the local DV professionals. How about full disclosure of the past and present dangerous behaviors to them. And following their advice to the letter even if it goes against your current thinking.

Surnia mentioned this because I stated that I had been talking to the DV professionals.  I have used them as a resource throughout this process and have been as honest with them as I am on bpdfamily.com.  I am following the path that they and I believe is correct.  I'm not going to twist myself in circles about what ifs.  If dangerous behaviors come up then I will deal with them when they do.  I know my husband well enough not to back him into a corner.  That's a big part of my safety plan.  Right now, he does not feel backed into a corner he is an adult making an adult choice.  I emphasized in the conversation this morning that I cannot allow my son to continue to be exposed to his erratic behavior.  He said I've made my choice and "I make my bed hard.  I will lay hard."  ie suffer the consequences of him leaving (a life without him).  I said that its not what I want, but I feel in my heart that the family will only heal if he gets professional help.  He said that I am a VERY VERY sick woman.  That I am cold and callous.  That he begs me to talk to him and I refuse therefore I'll lose him.  Again.  I am ok with all of this for today.

[patientandclear]

 

You could not be in a better place.  Good for you.

[KateCat]

 

This has got to be a major relief: the sense that your husband feels he is in control of making a decision. (I know I'm relieved just hearing this. It's a way forward.) Whew.

[LetItBe]

I'm coming in late to this thread.  Good for you for putting the best interest of your son first.  I love that you recognize that exposure at the youngest ages can have a lasting if not lifelong affect on children.  

You do sound like you're in a space of clarity and wisdom.  Good for you.    I know most "programming" happens before the age of 2, so I'm glad you're being proactive.  Your healthy boundaries will protect you and your son.

I grew up watching DV between my parents, and it's something that I'm healing from now.  One of my "stuck points" (PTSD) from what I witnessed is a belief system that, "Love is a struggle."  I have a vivid memory of something terrifying I watched happen between my parents when I was 7 years old.  I believe it's one of the things that has influenced my unhealthy partner selection.  I've chosen situations that reinforce reinforce that yes, love is a struggle.  I also remember how my mom would try so hard not to cry in front of us.  I learned how to suppress my sadness and wouldn't allow myself to cry in front of other people until I was 33.  How I wished as a child that someone would step in and protect me and my sister.  That didn't happen until I was 13 years old when Child Protection Services was tipped by my sister's boyfriend.  I imagine how different things would have been if even one of my parents would have been healthy enough to protect us.  

Your son is fortunate to have a loving, strong, wise mother like you!  

[Grey Kitty]

For today, my husband is very calm and peaceful.  He has clearly stated that he is choosing his own mental illness over our son and I and that he is looking for a place to live.  The situation will probably change 100 times but I am ok what that.

You sound so strong and centered right now. I'd offer you suggestions, but I really don't think I have anything to offer that you haven't already got.

All I went through with my wife, it was just her and I; no children, no dogs, nobody else I was responsible for. Others here have more perspective on those sort of obligations. It sounds like you have this right as well.

I'm remembering where I was four years ago after a long meditation retreat. I knew two things, in a very calm, certain way:

• I would always love my wife.



• I would stay with her unless/until it was harming myself. Not just unpleasant or difficult, but truly doing harm to my heart/soul/psyche. I never got to that point, however I got way too close.

We did have a period that was something of an informal therapeutic separation almost two years ago. She had a final breakthrough about a year ago. There is always hope.

I'm wishing you peace and strength. I'm also wishing your H the courage to get the help he needs, whatever path it takes for him.

 GK

[allibaba]

Grey Kitty - thanks as always for your support and thanks for starting me down this road.

One thing I can say is that my resolve is strong on this situation w my husband, my lover, my best fried. If it was just me (no son, so dogs) I could continue to fight this battle with him without professional intervention.  But its not just me and I have to stop the cycle of dysfunction.  I never thought that I would be strong enough... .But today I know that I am.

Its been an interesting 5 yrs for me.  First taking on my relationship w my BPD mom... .Now experiencing this w my husband.

One thing for sure is that its time to focus on me.  I have deep and terrible scars from watching my dad (the kindest man in the world) drink himself literally almost to death... .And doing little myself to intervene even though I was in my 20's.  Its the one true regret of my life.  If I had the tools then that I have now... .It might not have happened the way it did (then again he might have chosen alcohol instead of me).  In a way this situation is playing out w my husband (just replace alcohol w mental illness) but this time I am making different choices.

The DV center put me in touch w their outreach counselor to get as much in person support as I need (at no cost).  I've also been in touch w a psychologist who does DBT w biofeedback and I'd like to start attending those sessions to deal w some of my other issues (like the pain of the loss of my dad - he's not dead - he just fried his poor brain on alcohol).

Anyway good things will come of all of this.  Time to focus on me rather than my husband.

[momtara]

I haven't read all the responses.  I remember the first time you were on the bus.  It is very hard to give up on a marriage.  I am a month away from a divorce from my husband and still I feel his pull, and still I think of how nice it would be to just forget all this and have him come back, even on a limited basis.  But I see the lies, the imagining things, the manipulation still happening.  He IS getting help and other stuff, but it's not changing him.

Your husband sounds like someone who might do the DBT etc if you really did leave.  On the other hand, it could just be a final step.  You have no way of knowing.  But I think using the dog for leverage is scary.  Also, you say:

"Believe me if I thought that he was serious, I would have called the police."

My husband used to say he'd make a false claim to social services about our son when we were fighting.  I never thought he'd really do it.  Then we had a really bad weekend, and he did.  I'm not saying your husband would act on these impulses, but you should be audiotaping them.  If you ever have a custody battle, etc. (and don't doubt he might try it), these things will come in handy.

It is hard to leave.  I sympathize with you.  Maybe what you need is to outline all the behavior that has to change, or you are getting a divorce.  No half-attempts.  He has to stop all the abuse or nothing.  You can send it in a lawyer letter if you want.  Or, if that will just scare him, you do what you think is best.

Believe me, I know it's hard to leave.  You can try to stay, but things can't remain as they are.  He needs help.

[waverider]

Just to clariry, where are you staying at the moment?

[allibaba]

Ha ha I guess I have confused the heck out of everyone.  I am at homes (upstairs).

He's at home (downstairs).

Absolutely no violent behavior or abuse.

I am just using the dv resources as I have stayed there in the past.

And I am staying at home regardless of the outcome of this situation as I need to maintain stability for our son and the dogs.

I'm happy to keep fighting the good fight if hubby can control himself in front of our son.  Doubt that will be possible wihout professional intervention.

Letting things stay calm for now.  But preparing mentally if our r/s ends or a separation is req.

[allibaba]

And oddly enough - the behavior leading up to 'get help or get out' is mild in comparison w past behavior... .even the threat of getting rid of the dog is less than before (where he would have threatened to hurt the dog).  

I have truly come out of the fog and am focused on protecting our little boy as he's getting older and even words without actions can scar him now.

The behaviors that HAVE to stop are: threatening to get rid of the dogs, and 'losing it' even without an abuse component in front of our son.  He needs better stability than we are currently providing.

He just came to ask if I wanted to have sex and I said 'sure if its w my husband who I adore and he plans to get help '  he almost sprinted out of the room saying 'have a good night' (his way of saying 'f u'.  Did I say so, something wrong - .

[waverider]

The behaviors that HAVE to stop are: threatening to get rid of the dogs, and 'losing it' even without an abuse component in front of our son.  He needs better stability than we are currently providing.

So whats the plan if this happens again in a few days?

[allibaba]

The behaviors that HAVE to stop are: threatening to get rid of the dogs, and 'losing it' even without an abuse component in front of our son.  He needs better stability than we are currently providing.

So whats the plan if this happens again in a few days?

This 'get help or get out' is more of a long-term issue.  In other words, I feel like I am doing an effective job (mostly) protecting our son at the moment but soon he will understand the meaning of words and getting out of the house to avoid abuse will be his 'norm' and I know that it cannot carry on like this.

If he threatens the dogs or loses it around our son then I'll continue to same actions to escape abuse that I have been doing since the spring.  Short-term they will continue to work.

[allibaba]

Update:  this morning my husband came to me calmly and said that his is going to see a lawyer today and do I have any requests.  I reiterated that I don't want a divorce, I want us as a couple to fix our dysfunction so that we can raise our son in a healthy house.

He said that he has been in therapy for 6 months (lie) and that therapy never works.  He says that he is very physically sick (not mentally) and has special needs that I am either unwilling or unable to address.  He says that he loves me and I am a good, kind person but that he can't continue to fight for our marriage when I am unwilling to assist with his needs.

He said that living together is unhealthy for our little boy and that no judge in his right mind would award custody to him and he's confident that I will do a better job raising him alone than we would do raising him together.

He said that he wants what is rightfully his (half of the house) but that if I want to stay then he wants me to buy him out.  He said I had better come up with a proposal or he'll take me to court and we can waste our money on legal fees.  I said that I still only want to get help as a family to address our issues but that UNDER DURESS I will give him a proposal.

He says that he'll take one of the dogs with him (the one that is 11 that he had when we met) and I'm ok with that.

I think that he's being so reasonable because he knows that I have enough evidence of verbal, emotional and physical abuse to sink him in court.  He's not a stupid man.  I now believe that he'll probably magically 'get back on his feet' and find employment etc.  The NPD in him won't let him sink (a good thing).

Yesterday he told me that he has only stuck around so long because of me supporting him and good sex.  I don't believe that, but his cool and calm this morning made me question everything internally.  He said that I assign all of his outbursts to mental illness (not true.  I do try to listen to what is really upsetting him.)  He basically said our marriage is failing because emotionally and physically I don't do enough for him.

[KateCat]

I don't want to misquote waverider or take his posts out of context, but I remember this particularly striking one:

"[There is] a key turning point when . . . you are no longer the tag along trailer to his crazy driving style. It makes acceptance so much easier the less his decisions impact the rest of the family. You have your hands on your own steering wheel, you are retaining your own choice of what you do, greatly reduces resentment."

The wisdom of this general concept makes me wonder if it isn't time for you to "change the dance" and give him your idea of what a divorce settlement would look like should he indeed consult a lawyer.

[allibaba]

I'm not at all sure of whether this current position of his is just a game or the true path that we will take.  I don't think that anyone knows yet.

I am going to consult a lawyer to understand what a divorce settlement would look like today.

He's busy dividing assets away.  The only thing that I have told him is that if he truly wants a divorce (rather than seeking help) I need to stay in the house for our sons and for the dogs.

[KateCat]

If Canadian family law is anything like the law in most U.S. states, then your consultation with an attorney should provide a lot of validation for you. (You may be able to get one or several free or low-cost consultations with lawyers just to get the general lay of the land, without engaging any of them yet.)

[allibaba]

Thanks.  I actually have a lawyer and I have used her to bounce ideas (to minimize fear of his threats in the past).

She's prepped and ready to go.  Canadian law is very favorable towards a parent trying to take care of children (regardless of whether they are a woman or a man). 

The province that I am in has a zero tolerance policy on DV and abuse including verbal and emotional.  Basically my husband would be 'toast' if I pulled in all the evidence that I have gathered against him.  He has a pattern of questionable behavior and I don't have a history of any issues/ substance abuse etc while he has all of those things.

I wouldn't completely go after him unless necessary though.  At the end of the day, all I want is a happy non-dysfunctional family.  The lengths that I will go to have that include turfing my best friend (my husband) out of the house if that is the only way to raise our son in a stable home.

[allibaba]

He just called me to confirm that I only went to the grocery store and the pharmacy yesterday afternoon.  He says that I was gone from the house for 3 hrs and he wanted to confirm that he really isn't crazy that it takes me forever to do anything.

I left the house at 3:30 and returned by 5:15.  Its a half an hour driving time (both ways).  I slow played getting groceries and prescriptions and sat by the side of the road in the parked car crying (my emotions finally hit).  I didn't bother explaining all of this to him.  He's building a mental case against me and there is nothing I can do about it.  He has in his head that I am really inefficient and that is why our lives together don't work.  He gets in a huff if I tell him that I am leaving the office and then I don't get home for an hour and a half (the drive itself takes an hour) + any errands.

I'm just so sick of being under a microscope all the time.

[KateCat]

Gee, Alli, all this is so grim that I really wonder about the "head injury" idea mentioned by SweetCharlotte. Isn't it typical for the damage to declare itself, more and more, in middle age and beyond, when you're talking about former football players? (On the other hand, you do mention his family was aware of mental health issues he had as early as childhood.)

You have tried so hard to love him.  :'(

[Waddams]

I'm just so sick of being under a microscope all the time.

He's the one who's now saying he wants to leave?  Divorce?  Part of that is making the realization that what your ex-/STBX/etc spouse is doing is none of your business anymore.  You have a right to tell him you don't have to justify what you are doing, who you are with, where you are going, or how long it takes you.  You are not his pet, slave, child, or in any way required to account for yourself to him.  I'd recommend you set that boundary and tell him he really needs to back off, especially now that he's saying he wants to consult divorce lawyers.

Sometimes the best response to this sort of crap is to just tell him "Yup, I took my sweet time and did a bunch of stuff and I'm not going to tell you what I was doing, where I was, or anything about it.  I DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER OR BE ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU."  and hang up on him.

[KateCat]

Another forum member was given this excellent advice by her therapist: "Lean into the pain." Which I take to mean fully experience the grief. The grief, right now, is the reality.

Your thinking has been forcibly shaped by your husband over a long period of time and it makes sense that it will take some time, some mourning, and a big dose of self-acceptance before this thinking can change.

Have you already been asked this a bazillion times here (sorry): Are you regularly seeing a therapist for yourself during this painful and confusing time?

[allibaba]

Waddams,

I agree completely but part of why I am not making that step is that I really don't want to pursue a divorce.  He's making the adult choices here and he'll have to suffer the consequences.  

I don't want to provoke him.  I want to be calm and measured in how I respond (while protecting myself and our son unconditionally).  He can pick the fight - I am going to be Mahatma Gandhi.

If he files for divorce that would be the trigger for where I am is none of your damn business (though I'd be nicer about how I said it).

KateCat,

Seeing a therapist.  Ready to deal with whatever pain comes my way.

[momtara]

He says that about seeing a lawyer today, but tomorrow he may be screaming to take you back.  Once you get on the divorce road, it gets expensive, so don't wind up there if you're not ready.  I know you want to save your marriage.  For someone with BPD, I'm not sure counseling will really work.  But if you can get him to individual and couples counseling, maybe both things will help him with anger management or something.

Really, threatening the dogs and stuff like that worries me.  It's worse than verbal abuse.  It has you constantly tiptoeing.  I know you don't want to leave him.  I don't want to leave my husband either, but there are limits.

"He said that living together is unhealthy for our little boy and that no judge in his right mind would award custody to him and he's confident that I will do a better job raising him alone than we would do raising him together."

Beware of this.  My husband said things like that, but then when we were getting divorced, he filed for primary custody.  It was just a legal ploy, but I still had to spend money fighting it.  If you believe him, that's great, but don't let that stop you from keeping the evidence you have and maintaining a journal.

I sympathize with you in not wanting to leave.  Seems like you need to try everything you can to get him into counseling.  Maybe you two can have a separation and not divorce - file orders for the property division and custody, and give it a year apart to make sure this is what you both want.

[allibaba]

Momtara thanks.

I think of you a lot because I know that you never wanted to go down the divorce road but you had to anyway.  

I won't file for divorce.  I refuse.  

If he wants one - he can file.  

All I want is for him to choose to go to therapy (not just counselling) for his issues.  I have DBT lined up and everything.  He visited the psychologist and got a referral to a psychiatrist after our incident in July when he had a meltdown.  I have stated that I would be willing to do r/s counselling only after he starts work on himself.  He recognizes (at least in the good moments) that he is suffering from something emotionally nasty.  He's even spoken to our family doctor about it.

I do think that a separation is required at this point and visiting the lawyer would only be to draw up a separation agreement.  I expect a lot of backs and forths now.  I would welcome some time apart to just get clarity.

I realize that he would change his mind regarding custody.

I have enough evidence against my husband that I could likely get full custody of our son at the drop of a hat with no issues.  This is a ZERO TOLERANCE JURISDICTION when it comes to abuse (whether physical, verbal, or emotional).  

The problem is that evidence would probably result in a PEACE BOND wherein my husband was not allowed to see his son (or me) for a significant period of time.  I'd prefer to keep things under my control for the moment.  The good news is that my side of the street is pretty clear (constantly removing our son from the house in cases of conflict or violence).

Thanks for thinking of me.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Thank you for sharing your story. I really hope that you can find peace in this situation. I am in awe of your rock solid demeanor that you have when facing raging episodes from your husband. You have mentioned that it used to effect you very badly with anxiety in the past. I have had the same issues and I have gotten stronger recently, but I am no where near your strength. Can you share how you got there or what thing helped you the most?

I think that you are on the right path with the separation and I hope that your husband uses the time for himself to work on his issues. I can see that you really want to save your marriage. I give you massive kudos for that.

[GreenMango]

Alli since you want to try at this marriage and your husband does this all or nothing catastrophe thinking when he goes off the rails (expected with BPD) have you thought about proposing the therapeutic separation?

He can say all kinds of things - like he's leaving, he's taking the dog- whatever.

You're in a good place to not get caught up in his storm and just lay down your proposal.  You have to follow thru with it obviously but the structure and resolve on your end will be a good thing at least for your son and you for stability while you work thru the emotional part of this journey which is really the hardest part.

[allibaba]

Alli since you want to try at this marriage and your husband does this all or nothing catastrophe thinking when he goes off the rails (expected with BPD) have you thought about proposing the therapeutic separation?

Hi Green Mango!  Yup I am actually planning on a therapeutic separation (whether my husband agrees to it or not).  At this point it is critical to establish some space so that we can all think clearly.  It may lead to divorce - or it may lead to my husband realizing that he needs help.  I am at peace with either option as hard as they may be.  I still need to discuss all this with the lawyer (the best way to make everything happen) but decided to focus on other things today (like my work).

The big dog is safely at the doggie place.  The doggie place is allowing him lots of time to be out and about with their family (the kennel is on a farm).  They know that he is under stress at the moment.  My focus is to get my husband out of the house as soon as practical so that I can get my big boy back here where I can provide him stability.  Had a long talk with the dog person (very experienced) and got lots of good advice on how best to care for him (and alleviate some of the stress that my husband is creating in his doggie life).

Thank you for sharing your story. I really hope that you can find peace in this situation. I am in awe of your rock solid demeanor that you have when facing raging episodes from your husband. You have mentioned that it used to effect you very badly with anxiety in the past. I have had the same issues and I have gotten stronger recently, but I am no where near your strength. Can you share how you got there or what thing helped you the most?

I think that you are on the right path with the separation and I hope that your husband uses the time for himself to work on his issues. I can see that you really want to save your marriage. I give you massive kudos for that.

Love Is Not Enough, thanks for your comments.  I am glad that you are gaining something out of my story.  Never in my life did I think that I have the strength that I feel today.  Even if its only temporary to get me through this - I'll take it!  Its also nice to hear the validation when my husband is spending 24/7 telling me why I am incompetent and the cause of his life failures.

The thing that helped me the most was the LESSONS to the right of the staying board.  First learning not to justify, argue, defend, explain (JADE) all the time.  Then establishment of boundaries (starting w the most damaging behaviors), then learning validation.  Clearly this hasn't been enough, but I have peace that I am doing all I can for my relationship.  Firm and consistent boundaries were the biggest key step for me.

And now for a FUNNY for everyone.  Under all the stress that I am under I somehow managed to leave work an hour early.  I just called my boss and shared this (left work at 3:45), picked up son an hour early, made dinner an hour early, put son to bed an hour early.  I got mixed up with the time change!  I changed all the clocks but forgot that I had done it! Told boss that I had a blonde moment.  He knows what I am going through (generally) and said, "well under the circumstances - considering what you are going through - let's put that mistake in context -- not that bad"  But he assured me that he'll get lots of mileage out of this and will be making lots of fun of me about this at a later date when its more appropriate.      

[allibaba]

 I still need to discuss all this with the lawyer (the best way to make everything happen) but decided to focus on other things today (like my work).

... .

Its also nice to hear the validation when my husband is spending 24/7 telling me why I am incompetent and the cause of his life failures.

Two points of clarification - I understand that a therapeutic separation doesn't require a lawyer, but for my husband to leave the house... .he is going to need money and I am not willing to risk him taking the money... .disappearing into the sunset and me losing out because I failed to protect myself financially.

Also, my husband is pretty much a running quiet (no yelling or smashing things) commentary of how I'm incompetent at the moment.  I'm just ignoring/ walking away... .not sticking around for it.

[GreenMango]

I'm not real versed in the ins and outs of how to structure something like TS.  It may be a good idea to get the ducks in a row tho.  Maybe a thread on a legal or another thread about how to approach a TS could help.

Can you talk to both a therapist and a lawyer about the TS and then approach your husband about what you are proposing? 

His accusations and blaming are to be expected.  He did this the last time too.  It's pretty predictable.  Try not to take it to heart he's a very insecure man right now clutching at straws.  It's important to stay the course of what youve decided and to expect these kind of outbursts from someone who doesn't have the appropriate skills to resolve conflict.

But not intermittently reinforcing his behavior will help.

[allibaba]

Thanks for your wisdom GreenMango.  I have a really cool lawyer who understands that she is my advocate in trying to SAVE my relationship!  I will definitely consult the therapist on how to structure all this. 

I was driving home today thinking how lucky I am to have found you all!  You really are like a family to me. 

THANK YOU