Still unsure even weeks away from divorce from husband

[allibaba]

Hi Momtara,

I have to jump in on this topic.  I know your story just as you know mine.

I think that if you have any doubts that you should PAUSE the divorce (not stop) long enough to resolve them in yourself.  Its only fair to you (forget him at this point you have to think about you, you've probably spent a lifetime worrying about him).

Its OK not to want to be divorced.  That's a normal, healthy reaction to looking at divorce and that says that you are a person of substance (not someone who just throws things away at a whim).

As you know, I have been through hell in the last 6 months with my husband and many, many, many people on these boards have recommended that I leave him or recommended therapeutic separation (and for the record I totally agree that therapeutic separation is a good option) but that's not my reality at the moment.

The solution might be to postpone the rest of the divorce.  However, I have found that giving him false hope just makes things worse, because if I come up with a plan for him to slowly come back into our lives, and he messes up, it will be a lot harder to extricate myself from the situation.

I think that you have been amazing through all of this 

My experience (though results still to be determined) is that if you want to give your relationship any hope of true success (as in if you want to give it a shot), you have to cling to your boundaries like they are the last thing on earth - for you and your kids. My question for you is that above you say that it will be a lot harder to extricate yourself from the situation.

At your core - Who is it harder for?  For you?  For him?  For the kids?  And at the end of the day - what is harder... .being divorced?  Or giving him a shot to get better?  Only you can answer these questions. 

In my situation only, I don't feel comfortable walking away until I have given it every last bit of me.  This is better for my son as well and I know that.  My husband is a good person and he deserves that shot too (but he's no. 2 after our son and I).

I have found that giving him false hope just makes things worse

Giving him a shot to get better makes things worse for who?  For you?  For him?  For your kids?  Are you worried that he is going to dysregulate if you guys don't live happily ever after?  I'm going to be blunt - he's going to dysregulate anyway... .no matter how perfect you do things.  That is the nature of the illness.  You can't control this - regardless of whether you are married or not - you are parents together and you will feel the effects of his dysregulations.  Sorry!

I think it's possible that if he comes back and I go back to walking on eggshells, I can keep things from ever getting to a boiling point for a while or maybe even forever.  The thing is, is that really a way for us both to live?  I am not a shrink and I can't always guarantee our lives will be stress free.  Even without divorce, there could be another stressor that drives him to the brink.

Momtara you can't keep things from reaching a boiling point.  If you want to give him a shot, then somewhere within yourself you would have to find the radical acceptance to know that things will reach a boiling point and your lives will never be stress free (no one's life is) and you need to feel confident that the situation is such that you can effectively protect yourself and your children and that you can stand up to him even when things aren't at the boiling point.

Have you gotten your own therapy during this?  I can't remember.

I don't have any answers - just a lot of questions but     

I respect your ability to step back and talk about this openly.

[PuzzledMate]

Great replies and perspective for momtara to contemplate here.  amazing.

From what I've read and your story, he is still very much in control of the situation.  Momtara, there is nothing wrong with wanting to work it out.  Seriously, that is very heart felt and shows what kind of person you are.

He will have to get better on his own power.  Loving someone who is mentally ill is difficult and challenging.

It's is ultimately up to you of course.

Good luck in your endeavors and marriage.  Take care of yourself first.

[momtara]

Thanks to everyone who provided perspective.

When I said I can help in therapy, I mean, I could come with him and point out some issues to work on.  Right now, he is not fully conscious of what he does that's so hurtful, and I don't know that he shares everything with his shrink.  I feel like the core issues could be addressed a lot better if we were all doing therapy together.  Not if I am an ex wife just hoping he gets better for the kids' sake.

It is a confusing situation.  Yesterday he apologized for something he went off the rails about.  But today he went off the rails again (via text) and I felt so glad I am not living with him and maybe glad I am divorcing him.  Then I started feeling bad again, thinking, this is something I could bring up in therapy if we were still married.

I don't know if I'm grieving the divorce or grieving him, or just scared of being alone.  Or maybe not sure which is better for my kids.

Alibaba, you are brave.

I think I really feel bad because I remember that he wanted to change a few months back, and I was afraid he couldn't, and it was my one chance to leave.

Some of you don't agree with the idea that it will be harder to leave if I wait six months.  I think it will.  Every step I took to detach over the last 6 months has sent him into a tailspin.  He recovered each time, but not after a lot of pain.  Just don't know if I want to go through that in a year.

I don't know why I am expending all this energy on someone who is cruel to me and who sometimes puts himself before our kids.  I guess I have to figure out how much hope there is for change.  When he is good, I get hopeful.  

[Waddams]

You have to deal with people as they are.  Accept them as they are.  And accept whether you want to be aruond them or not based on the reality of their persona, as they are.

Leaving now does not mean it's over for ever.  Chances are he won't heal his own demons and get better as a partner if he is with you.  Being with him will enable him to not change.  He'll likely only get to be a better partner on his own, while he is alone.  That way he CANNOT fall back into old relational behaviors, at least with you.  He won't have the option.

I'm sorry, I know the feeling of "Am I really doing the right thing now?" when contemplating/going through a divorce.  It's heartbreaking.  Unfortunately, you won't know the answer for certain until it's done, and some time has passed.  His post-divorce behavior will answer all this for you.  If he gets better, and it's real and genuine, then there will be real opportunity for reconciling then.

[allibaba]

PS Momtara my husband has done really well for at least two weeks now.  No violent behavior, sticking with the negativity towards himself not towards me or our son. 

But last night was tired and stressed and he quietly said the most bizarre thing "if child services saw the dog hair on your pillow -they would take that child away from you."  OK.  The dog ninjaed her way onto the pillow.  The stupid pillow can be washed.  I'm confident that child services doesn't give a rats @ss about the dog hair on a pillow. 

I thought of you because of what your husband did to you.  I thought - what a bizarre statement to make.  I also thought that another critical tool of hanging in there in a BPD relationship is arming yourself with an army of people around you who know exactly what kind of parent you are:  doctors, daycare professionals, family members (I don't hold anything back).  Of course I don't go around proclaiming how bizarre things get in our lives sometimes but I don't hide things anymore.  And that is one of my tools to feel more comfortable.

[momtara]

Thanks, Waddams and Ali.

Yeah, Ali, that's the kind of statement my husband used to make.  Of course, it's because they are afraid of losing us - or the kid(s).  My husband said later he did all those things because he thought I was going to take the kids away from him. 

I think a person can end up dead inside from having to hear stuff like that all the time.  But maybe it will get better with counseling and time. 

For me, I don't know.  My husband seems vengeful.  He calls the kids every night, and tonight he didn't.  So I'm in a tailspin waiting for him to call so I can go on with my night.  It's just playing games.  The kids expect him to call now, and he's not.  Kind of mean.

And then I come back to - well, if we were together, I could address this in counseling. 

It bothers me that a few days ago, he apologized for being angry, and then he does the same stuff again today.  If he can't control it at all, what else might he do?  And if we're breaking up, he may just have no incentive to change.

Sorry to keep rambling.  I am leaning toward continuing with the divorce.  But I still wonder.

There is this part of me also wondering, "What if, say, I told him I was marrying someone else.  How far would he go to get back at me?  What would he do?"  I don't think it will happen, but I wonder.     I am still tiptoeing.

[Grey Kitty]

You speak of things like your H playing games with you and the kids (not calling tonight, for example) and fear that he may dysregulate, and do nasty things.

Divorce won't protect you or the kids from this sort of stuff--he will still have contact with them, and is likely enough to get partial custody in addition.

My feeling is that your best bet is to  look carefully at those fears, see what you are afraid of, think about what is possible and what your H is likely to do, and what you can do to mitigate the risks.

Somewhere along the way I realized that I'm a much happier Grey Kitty if I don't let my fears control my choices and my actions. The fears are real, I need to listen to them, but after that I need to decide what actually fits my values before I act.

[momtara]

well, i am just being vigilant.  that's about all i can do.  if something happens, i'll ask for an evaluation.  we also might get a parent coordinator, but so far i've interviewed a few and it seems like it may not be an answer.

Anyway... .he told me tonight that he talked to his shrink about his reactions today.  i'm not quite sure i believe him.  he used to tell this same lie all the time.  but at least he knows he overreacted.

hmmm, i must really be codependent.  i am still dealing with him all day.  deep down, maybe it keeps me from being lonely.  how dysfunctional that is!  (At least i know it!)

[momtara]

This morning I was having two thoughts:

1)  If not for my kids around, I'd be really lonely.  I am very worried that in a few years, when the kids are hanging out with their friends and I am alone, and hubby is with someone else, I'll feel so sad.  I am good at entertaining myself - books, movies, the like - but those things don't fill a hole when everyone around you has a family.

2)  What is the line between trying everything to make it work... .and being a victim of emotional abuse who won't leave?

[allibaba]

hmmm, i must really be codependent.  i am still dealing with him all day.  deep down, maybe it keeps me from being lonely.  how dysfunctional that is!  (At least i know it!)

Don't worry - most of us are.  By doing the recent work in my relationship, I am getting enough space to see my own inability to be comfortable in my own skin.  I am embracing and feeling the anxiety when it comes on... .acknowledging it for what it is... .but choosing to feel it instead of avoiding it. 

What can you do to become more healthy in your interactions with your husband?  Regardless of whether you get divorced or not - I think that that should be the end game.  Your side of the street... .not his.

Also, its ok to feel lonely.  We all do, even in our BPD relationships.  What can you do to develop relationships around you (they don't need to be romantic)... .do you have a hobby where you could join a club, is there a local church that you participate in.  Again, I don't think that this is a question of something we do when we are facing divorce, I believe that it is a healthy thing to look at WITHIN the relationship as well.

  Hang in there!

[PuzzledMate]

Thanks, Waddams and Ali.

Yeah, Ali, that's the kind of statement my husband used to make.  Of course, it's because they are afraid of losing us - or the kid(s).  My husband said later he did all those things because he thought I was going to take the kids away from him. 

I think a person can end up dead inside from having to hear stuff like that all the time.  But maybe it will get better with counseling and time. 

For me, I don't know.  My husband seems vengeful.  He calls the kids every night, and tonight he didn't.  So I'm in a tailspin waiting for him to call so I can go on with my night.  It's just playing games.  The kids expect him to call now, and he's not.  Kind of mean.

And then I come back to - well, if we were together, I could address this in counseling. 

It bothers me that a few days ago, he apologized for being angry, and then he does the same stuff again today.  If he can't control it at all, what else might he do?  And if we're breaking up, he may just have no incentive to change.

Sorry to keep rambling.  I am leaning toward continuing with the divorce.  But I still wonder.

There is this part of me also wondering, "What if, say, I told him I was marrying someone else.  How far would he go to get back at me?  What would he do?"  I don't think it will happen, but I wonder.     I am still tiptoeing.

You are going to have doubts.  But if you read your posts, most of your actions are based on his actions.  You still love him and have kids with him so there is a bond.  That may be confusing you.  If he knows he is being watched by you and he still behaves as before, it won't improve if he is around or not.  He has to get help for himself and not to save the marriage. 

You also seem to be excusing his behavior and trying to figure him out.  You are setting yourself up for failure because you are so used to looking at his issues and behaviors that when you have to deal with your own after the divorce it will be overwhelming.  Try making a list of your own issues, not having to do with him!  That will help you refer back to your life when he is not in it as much.  You may not be able to protect your kids from him but being divorced will at least remove them from the possibility of being affected by his behaviors.  I know you said your kids are very young but they are smart cookies.  They can sense tension, anger and fear.  Those are things that children should not experience in their own house where they should be safe and secure with mom and dad.  Read the stories on this board about having a BPD parent and you'll see the damage starts at a very early age.

[maxen]

hi momtara, i have nothing deep to say except that you are thinking this through very well and by doing so you will in the end surely come to the right decision. the advice here has been very thoughtful too.

Gosh, I wish someone would come down from the heavens and say, "Get back together and I will protect all of you."

yes, i wish every day for something like that too.

[KateCat]

I've read much of your posting history and, like many others here, applaud your continuous efforts on behalf of your family. 

On another thread, livednlearned has given you the most courageous and astute advice that perhaps anyone could give you. She truly has the "standing" to comment on your situation and its long-term implications. You have touched some hearts in this community to be the beneficiary of such generous advice, though it has to be distressing to hear.

I guess I fall into the camp of those who suspect you already know what you need to do and that you will indeed have the courage to do it. 

[momtara]

Which thread?  She does give good advice.  Getting divorced is the easy way - I'm almost there.  Just have to show up for one more court date.  Holding off a little longer, or converting this to a legal separation, is the riskier thing for me.  No matter which I way I go, I'll be scared.

[momtara]

Ah, I saw her post.  I had missed it before.  Very insightful.

I will probably continue with the divorce.  I just know myself and how hard I fall in love, and I'm so afraid of looking back 20 years from now and remembering that he begged me not to get divorced, and I let him go.  Maybe for good reasons.  But I will wonder if there was another way.

[KateCat]

This is the post of LnL I feel is without price, truly:

"Being traumatized enough to end the marriage, but then having feelings of attachment for him after the divorce ... .that must be terribly confusing for you, momtara. I understand why you'd share this on the family law board because divorce is what we all have in common , but the nature of what you're getting at is a very deep personal inventory question. Here, you may find some comfort in hearing how others respond, but something much deeper is going on inside you, and comparing experiences won't help you drill deep enough to figure out what the confusion is about. You have to figure out why you are feeling this way, and understand how it is affecting you. 

Being in dysfunctional relationships is usually very comforting and familiar to people who are accustomed to being in them. The abuse, chaos, disorder, dysfunction -- all of that feels so familiar that we tolerate things healthy people would not. When we decide to end these relationships, it's a sign that we're choosing to be healthy. So yearning for the dysfunctional relationship after ending it is a sign something is stuck. What is stuck for you? Or more importantly, how are you going to get unstuck?

For me, it was S12. I was too disordered in the beginning to make healthy choices for myself. But when it came to S12, I had way more wind in my sails. I wanted to know what it meant to raise an emotionally healthy child. That has been the gift that keeps on giving, because I will make drastic changes in myself for his well-being when I don't have what I need to make those changes for myself. If it's the same for you, if your kids are what motivate you, then you have to figure out how being stuck is affecting them. Because this kind of stuff definitely affects them.

Our kids study us closely, read our cues, our body language, the tone in our voice, the expression on our face. They know how we feel. They are watching us more closely than anyone has ever watched us in our life. They're studying our behavior and figuring out that this is what women or men do, this is how women and men love. This is what women and men allow. This, then, is how they will love.

Yesterday, my son told me that his friend, a new kid who moved to town and became friends with my son at the start of the school year, is not a real friend. He isn't a real friend because he only laughs when my son gets hurt, or when other kids get hurt. When my son tells him to stop, his friend calls him a hypocrite. S12 told me the next time this kid does something mean, he's going to get up from the cafeteria table, and tell him he's a jerk and doesn't want to be his friend. I asked him if he had thought about doing it slowly, over time, so it wasn't dramatic, and S12 said, "No because I want him to know exactly why I'm not going to be his friend. I have other friends and I don't need him."

I know in my heart, deep down to the core of my being, that my son would never do that if I had not stood up to his dad and left. I taught S12 self-respect. I taught him to be assertive.

It takes my breath away when I see the ripples this long after leaving N/BPD.

If you can figure out where your feelings of confusion are coming from, and what they're about -- not just naming them but knowing where they come from, then you can help your daughters understand. My T referred to it as "changing the script." You have taken a big step with the divorce -- it means that you are ready to change the script. But something psychological and emotional is stuck, and that's a rich place to dig."

[PuzzledMate]

^^^This reply is beautiful.  Kids pick up on things you wouldn't even dream they would.  What kind of message are you sending your kids if you stay?

Great tread guys and dolls.

[momtara]

I would only 'stay' and invite him to move back in if there were big changes.  Regardless, I've moved on from this by now, realizing that we both need to be apart for years before we can consider getting back together. 

I do regret having jumped right into divorce without a separation.  But that was STBX's idea, although he later regretted it.   STBX wanted us to work on his issues together - but he only said all that after I finally filed for divorce.  At that point, I had to protect myself from his future custody battles and such.  He kept trying to win me back, but then would become that 'other' person and say something angry or lie.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I didn't know at the time that he'd change his mind.  Well, if he gets the right help, maybe someday things will work out.  He is very difficult to live with and if it's a choice between divorce or constantly being pressured by him to get back together, I guess I did the right thing.

[PuzzledMate]

momtara,

Glad to hear you are somewhat at peace with your decision.  It is uncomfortable to do something for yourself and it sounds like he was still pulling on you to solve his problems.

Sometimes making a decision is more of a relief instead of being in limbo and second guessing yourself.  That back and forth wears on us, even those with tons of intestinal fortitude.

Don't let him ruin your experience of discovering yourself and the world around you.  You will soon learn that the dynamic between you and your kids will improve now that you don't have someone constantly stirring the pot.

Be good to yourself and reap the rewards of becoming the person you were prevented from being.