How do we deal with lying?

[Ryyder]

The lies and omissions are destroying our relationship so we've agreed that we need to tackle the issue head on but I don't know how to help him without triggering him.

Does anyone have any advice or know of any articles? I've used the search facility but can't find any useful information to help us deal with it.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[slimmiller]

In their mind, they dont lie. They just dont tell you the truth and if they omit things its not lying. So to try and appeal to them, is tough.

But on the flip side if you omit and just dont tell everything you are a liar. (to them)

I found the only way with mine is flat out set boundaries and when it come down to it, I tell her her words are just words, proof it. Its the only thing that has worked to some degree.

[123Phoebe]

Hi Ryyder,

I'm sorry to hear that you're experiencing this.  Your partner has agreed that the lies and omissions are destroying your relationship?  

Have you had a chance to read the Lessons on the right sidebar of this page? --------------------->

There's a lot of really good info provided there  When you have a chance, please take a look; it's helped a lot of us understand what's going on.

In the meantime, how are you doing?  Are you finding ways to fulfill yourself outside of your relationship?

Hang in there... .

[Ryyder]

Thanks again Phoebe

I fear we are cross posting between this and my introduction now ... oops

I'm doing ok now, we've separated and live 4 miles apart. Close enough to continue the relationship without being at each other all the time. It's help enormously to have our own space.

I'm still very confused though, I feel like I'm trying to unravel a spiders web. What I thought was just a toxic relationship for 3 and a half years turns out to have been something very different and both of us are having a very hard time coming to terms with his disorder and how to deal with it. I'm having to learn a whole new way of looking at and reacting to things, learn new skills and help him at the same time.

I'm exhausted, my head is spinning and there has been no-one to guide me.

I've read every damn thing I can get my hands on, I've been all over the internet, trying to learn how to cope and I'm drowning in information, while learning very little practical skills.

Oooh, where did all that come from? 

It felt good to get it out anyway 

[123Phoebe]

I fear we are cross posting between this and my introduction now ... oops

Hey Ryyder, I noticed that too

I think that one of the hardest things to do is to let go of an outcome, let go of thinking that we can "help" them to see the error of their ways and to instead, get in a lot better touch with what drives us to believe these things, i.e. that we can somehow change them.

What happens inside of you when you know he's lying?  What kind of feelings come up?  If I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I was being lied to, I would probably be inclined to shake my head and walk away, hang up, just get away from it to clear my head.

I value honesty.  So I am repelled by lies.

Does this make sense?

Do you have a boundary around lying?

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

[Ryyder]

I'm being referred for counselling myself as I believe I am co-dependent and need to deal with my own issues as well.

I cannot abide lies and every time he has done it I have left, which triggers the downward spiral of suicide attempts and or threats from him. Then promises of change etc so I take him back.

I don't know how to break this pattern   

[Ryyder]

I'm a nagger

I ask him not to lie to me, I tell him not to lie to me, I teach him how not to lie to me. I Left him for lying to me.

He still lies to me.

He says he wants to be with me and wants to change so I try yet another way to 'help' him.

We're stuck in this pattern... .help

[123Phoebe]

I searched around and found these two links that might be helpful, Ryyder.

How to take a time out

This next one is about Extinction Bursts and what we might expect when our boundaries are being pushed against

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

You can find loads of information in The Learning Center; Workshops and Tools, Book Reviews, Questions about BPD and BPD Resources.

It's a lot of information, I know.  It's a lot of GOOD stuff that can help to find a clearer pathway through all of this

You are not alone in learning about your codependent tendencies   You're in good company  

[waverider]

It is difficult, they dont have any boundary themselves between truth, twisted truth and outright fabrication. They use what ever is necessary to best convey their feelings and perceptions. It is not always a deliberate transgression.

You can impose boundaries between you and them, but you can't successfully impose boundaries in  their own way of thinking. So any success is likely to be limited, and you will just have to accept that what they say is "interesting" and used to express how they feel, but not necessary your reality.

[Ryyder]

We did it! We had a conversation about our issues without it turning in to an argument! 

All it took was validation and listening and trying to really see where he was coming from and he finally explained why he's lied... .and I get it!

I'm so thrilled.

[123Phoebe]

We did it! We had a conversation about our issues without it turning in to an argument! 

All it took was validation and listening and trying to really see where he was coming from and he finally explained why he's lied... .and I get it!

I'm so thrilled.

Wow Ryyder, this is great news!  Is it too nosy for me to ask what his reasoning was behind the lies?  And how this will help your relationship going forward?

Woo hoo!  Validation works wonders    I'm so happy for both of you!

[Ryyder]

The lies have been around him seeing female friends behind my back.

Before I discovered he has BPD he behaved like he was having an emotional affair, sneaking off to see a woman, texting, ringing and wanting to be with them all the time. He knew that would make me 'kick off' as he puts it so he covered it up.

I had to take a massive leap of faith and actually listen to him when he said they were just friends and now I know more about BPD the obsessive behavior makes sense and I can see his friendships for what they really are. He craves acceptance and validation so much that when he finds it he becomes obsessed with getting it and nothing else matters.

We've agreed that he won't cover up his friendships any more and I will work on not feeling threatened by them.

[an0ught]

Hi Ryyder,

it sucks not knowing whether one is lied to or not. 

I'm a nagger

I ask him not to lie to me, I tell him not to lie to me, I teach him how not to lie to me. I Left him for lying to me.

He still lies to me.

He says he wants to be with me and wants to change so I try yet another way to 'help' him.

We're stuck in this pattern... .help

You are obviously not succeeding at controlling his lying... .

In their mind, they dont lie. They just dont tell you the truth and if they omit things its not lying. So to try and appeal to them, is tough.

But on the flip side if you omit and just dont tell everything you are a liar. (to them)

I found the only way with mine is flat out set boundaries and when it come down to it, I tell her her words are just words, proof it. Its the only thing that has worked to some degree.

He may not be able to control it either as facts are often subject to emotional distortion.

What you do however control is how much you trust him. Can you think of trust in NON B&W terms?

- areas where it matter to be 100% on a factual basis

- areas where you can afford more time for a decision to figure out his deeper feelings around the topic at hand

- areas where it does not matter

- effort you expend to validating the story

- risks you are willing and are not willing to take

- where on the scale of "snake oil salesman"  to "saint" you believe he is when you need to base a decision on him

123Phoebe gave you a link to Boundaries. This is a really important topic for your situation.

[Ryyder]

He may not be able to control it either as facts are often subject to emotional distortion.

This makes sense. He says he doesn't see it as lying. He says he is NOT having an affair and to him he isn't. In his mind they are just friends.

I'm confused around how to enforce my boundary of not lying to me about seeing 'friends', without being forced to leave the relationship.

[123Phoebe]

Ryyder,

How often is he seeing his 'friends'?  So much so that it's interfering with the time the two of you spend together?  Does he work with these women?  Old pals?  Have you ever met them?

Do you think he likes making you jealous?  Getting a rise out of you?

Sorry for all the questions

[Ryyder]

when he becomes interested in a new 'friend' he gets obsessed. He wants to be with/ring/text them all day, every day. This usually lasts around a month or so (I say usually, it's happened twice) before I found out.

When it happens he looses all interest in me and I become the enemy, someone stopping him from getting what he wants.

The first one was 2 years ago, when we'd just moved in together, to a new small village. He met her while taking the kids to school. They started texting each other all day, every day, meeting for coffee etc and him having a good old moan about what a bhit I was, how he couldn't breathe, go anywhere, see 'friends' etc. He put all his time and attention in to this new 'friend'. I insisted he cut all contact with her as soon as I found out as it appeared to be the start of an affair.

The last one started in Sept, just gone. The same thing

[Ryyder]

can't edit posts?

I have met both of them a couple of times.

I don't think he's doing it to make me jealous because he's gone to such lengths to keep the friendships from me finding out about them.

He says they make him feel good about himself, he doesn't have to worry about anything when he's with them, he feels safe. It appears to be more about acceptance than anything else.

[123Phoebe]

He says they make him feel good about himself, he doesn't have to worry about anything when he's with them, he feels safe. It appears to be more about acceptance than anything else.

It might very well be about acceptance.  Question is, can you accept this?  We have no control over what somebody else chooses to do, or who they choose to do it with.

can't edit posts?

The modify ability is for 30 minutes from the time of your post.

The modify button is located at the top of the reply box on the right side, next to the title of the thread.  Hope this helps!

[slimmiller]

can't edit posts?

I have met both of them a couple of times.

I don't think he's doing it to make me jealous because he's gone to such lengths to keep the friendships from me finding out about them.

He says they make him feel good about himself, he doesn't have to worry about anything when he's with them, he feels safe. It appears to be more about acceptance than anything else.

I think you raise a very interesting point. It seems like they are more into the 'chase' or the seduction of another person. (not necessarily in a physical sense, it could be just a friendship... .at first) Because when you think about it, the core disfunction of BPD is rejection of those that they are closest to. Almost like once the 'chase' is over and its time to love and enjoy what they have (us nons) they reject it and start the 'chase' all over.

So in that sense, once they have the acceptance, they once again have to validate themselves by seeking the acceptance (approval) of another and we become collateral damage in the process of the cycle... .And they seek someone new to 'soothe' them

[waverider]

A lifetime of dysfunctional behavior which is always met with invalidation and criticism by those around them, causes an ingrained behavior of privacy and covering up. This becomes simply a way of life, even if the subject itself does not need covering up. Secrecy is their comfort blanket. Your desire to remove that blanket is seen as a threat and increases the need for the blanket.

To be completely honest leaves them feeling naked and vulnerable.

It takes a lot of therapy to override this, boundaries will often only lead to them shifting the subject elsewhere, hiding something else.

[Ryyder]

I think you raise a very interesting point. It seems like they are more into the 'chase' or the seduction of another person. (not necessarily in a physical sense, it could be just a friendship... .at first) Because when you think about it, the core disfunction of BPD is rejection of those that they are closest to. Almost like once the 'chase' is over and its time to love and enjoy what they have (us nons) they reject it and start the 'chase' all over.

So in that sense, once they have the acceptance, they once again have to validate themselves by seeking the acceptance (approval) of another and we become collateral damage in the process of the cycle... .And they seek someone new to 'soothe' them

but why lie and cover it up if I've said it's ok to see her?

I haven't reacted badly the last few times he's mentioned going round to her house for coffee so why all of a sudden does he start covering it up and lying about it again.

[123Phoebe]

I think you raise a very interesting point. It seems like they are more into the 'chase' or the seduction of another person. (not necessarily in a physical sense, it could be just a friendship... .at first) Because when you think about it, the core disfunction of BPD is rejection of those that they are closest to. Almost like once the 'chase' is over and its time to love and enjoy what they have (us nons) they reject it and start the 'chase' all over.

So in that sense, once they have the acceptance, they once again have to validate themselves by seeking the acceptance (approval) of another and we become collateral damage in the process of the cycle... .And they seek someone new to 'soothe' them

but why lie and cover it up if I've said it's ok to see her?

I haven't reacted badly the last few times he's mentioned going round to her house for coffee so why all of a sudden does he start covering it up and lying about it again.

Because it's what he does, unfortunately.  Sounds like this is a pattern of his.  Could be a control issue; he's not going to let you have a say in how he conducts his life.  Who knows for sure.

I guess the bottom line is how it makes you feel and how you decide to handle your emotions around it.  If it's okay with you if he sees her, is it necessary for him to tell you when he does?

I'm not saying that what he's doing is right or wrong, Ryyder.  It bothers you   How can you feel better about this?

[slimmiller]

[/quote]
but why lie and cover it up if I've said it's ok to see her?

I haven't reacted badly the last few times he's mentioned going round to her house for coffee so why all of a sudden does he start covering it up and lying about it again.[/quote]
Two things, first he never lied in his mind. Its like a computer that has an operating system and no anti-virus so it gets a virus and malfunctions (lies) and yet it will fight you when you confront the lie because it has no baseline (distorted moral compass) to compare itself to. Thats how they can lie so vehemetly and lie about the lies. And yet they can see 'your' lies (or their lies mirrored into you) Then they complain when others dont mesh properly (the computers dont work together because the others, the nons, out of self preservation, withdraw to protect itself) and thus we become the bad guys for rejecting them when in fact they ARE the problem


Number two, he lies because he needs you to keep a certain image and believe about him so that you can still be useful to him (possibly) in the future. If you saw the plain truth, you would reject him and or his actions. Untill you are completely painted black, theres still hope in his mind that you might, in some distorted way,  in the future be useful to soothe him again.

In the end the distance and your emotional health can only be determined by you. He is incapable of regulating even his own, let alone so much as respecting yours

[FigureIt]

I am stuck similarly. My BPDbf lies to everyone, me, friends, his boss, but never admits they are lies.  Also, when I have omitted because it avoids some blow up or accusation, then I am accused of lying and hiding stuff, etc. It feels like you are in a no win situation.

[Ryyder]

Because it's what he does, unfortunately.  Sounds like this is a pattern of his.  Could be a control issue; he's not going to let you have a say in how he conducts his life.  Who knows for sure.

I guess the bottom line is how it makes you feel and how you decide to handle your emotions around it.  If it's okay with you if he sees her, is it necessary for him to tell you when he does?

I'm not saying that what he's doing is right or wrong, Ryyder.  It bothers you   How can you feel better about this?

I don't have a problem with him seeing her, it's something he needs to do. He doesnt need to tell me when he see's her, I actually prefer it if I don't know. What I don't want is, when I find out he's been to see her, when he's told me he hasn't and he bare face lies about it. What can I do about that?

[Ryyder]

Two things, first he never lied in his mind. Its like a computer that has an operating system and no anti-virus so it gets a virus and malfunctions (lies) and yet it will fight you when you confront the lie because it has no baseline (distorted moral compass) to compare itself to. Thats how they can lie so vehemetly and lie about the lies. And yet they can see 'your' lies (or their lies mirrored into you) Then they complain when others dont mesh properly (the computers dont work together because the others, the nons, out of self preservation, withdraw to protect itself) and thus we become the bad guys for rejecting them when in fact they ARE the problem


Number two, he lies because he needs you to keep a certain image and believe about him so that you can still be useful to him (possibly) in the future. If you saw the plain truth, you would reject him and or his actions. Untill you are completely painted black, theres still hope in his mind that you might, in some distorted way,  in the future be useful to soothe him again.

In the end the distance and your emotional health can only be determined by you. He is incapable of regulating even his own, let alone so much as respecting yours

hmmm, you've given me something to think about there, thanks

[Ryyder]

I am stuck similarly. My BPDbf lies to everyone, me, friends, his boss, but never admits they are lies.  Also, when I have omitted because it avoids some blow up or accusation, then I am accused of lying and hiding stuff, etc. It feels like you are in a no win situation.

I'm so sorry you're going through this too 

[123Phoebe]

Because it's what he does, unfortunately.  Sounds like this is a pattern of his.  Could be a control issue; he's not going to let you have a say in how he conducts his life.  Who knows for sure.

I guess the bottom line is how it makes you feel and how you decide to handle your emotions around it.  If it's okay with you if he sees her, is it necessary for him to tell you when he does?

I'm not saying that what he's doing is right or wrong, Ryyder.  It bothers you   How can you feel better about this?

I don't have a problem with him seeing her, it's something he needs to do. He doesnt need to tell me when he see's her, I actually prefer it if I don't know. What I don't want is, when I find out he's been to see her, when he's told me he hasn't and he bare face lies about it. What can I do about that?

Ugh, it feels awful being lied to.  It's something I have a really hard time getting past.

Do you mind if I ask how you've found out about the lie? 

[Ryyder]

I checked his phone.

I can usually tell when he's hiding something because he goes all weird about his phone; that sets my alarm bells off so I check what's going on and every time I have found something, either via his phone or the internet.

[eatonsangel]

wow ryder! im glad I joined this forum. im sorry he is lying like this to you, but kinda relieved im not the only one! its like reading my story! except my bf used to run back to the same lady , but then would use her in a manipulative way to start arguments with me. but the pathological lying is so much! his own family knows hes ill and he lies, but yet they insist theres nothing wrong with him and he tells the truth!