now he wants more parenting time...

[momtara]

So we had this mandatory economic mediation thing two weeks ago where we could decide all our finances and end the divorce that day, in court.  But since I want to ensure we have a parent coordinator after the divorce is final, or counseling or something, I balked so that we could include that lanuage, and we also asked to include language saying he'll stay in therapy.

Now we have another date coming up and suddenly hubby has responded to my proposed settlement by saying he should have more parenting time.  Right now, he only has a few overnights a month with our very young girls.  Very few.  He agreed to this 6 months ago in custody mediation and it became an order.

He is using the request for more overnights, of course, to get other stuff he wants, and to intimidate me.  By hesitating and adding stuff to our settlement, I opened a can of worms.

I am going to just say that this is the first I'm hearing of it and it's something we can talk about in the future, but doesn't make sense to incorporate it into an order all of a sudden.

But I'm wondering, how likely is a judge to give him more just because he asks?  He has so little right now, people have told me that maybe I shouldn't rock the boat.  But he agreed to this small amount of time 6 months ago, and there is no change in circumstances.

[Matt]

By hesitating and adding stuff to our settlement, I opened a can of worms.

You made a very reasonable judgment to ask for what you thought would be best.  Whether your stbX would have asked for more parenting time, if you had made a different decision, nobody can say.  It's probably not helpful to second-guess yourself and blame yourself for what he does.

Unless he has a good reason why it will be in the kids' interest to spend more time with their dad, it's not likely the judge will award it, just a few months after you both agreed to the current schedule.

You could point that out and hold firm to the current schedule, or you could even ask that his time with the kids be reduced - that's what I did in a similar situation.  I said, I've learned a lot since I agreed to that schedule, and what I have learned has caused me to have big concerns about the kids spending so much time with their mom, til she has been diagnosed and treated successfully.  So I think they should have less time with her for now."  Guess what - although I had agreed to it, it was changed - more time with me - because I made a strong case with good information.

Or... .if you propose that they spend less time with him, and he's asking for more, the judge might say, "No change."

Focus on what you believe is best for the kids, and why.  Gather any evidence you can, and make a strong, clear argument for what you think will be best.  It will probably come out OK.

[momtara]

Thanks!  How long after you signed your original schedule were you able to get it changed?

[Matt]

Thanks!  How long after you signed your original schedule were you able to get it changed?

In my case, there was never a court order establishing the schedule I initially agreed to.

We separated December 2006.  My wife filed for divorce in January, proposing a schedule which had the kids with her most of the time.  I responded a few months later, agreeing to that - very foolishly.

Then we agreed to put the divorce on hold and try couples counseling.  That lasted til November, when I decided to go ahead with the divorce.  I got a lawyer, and by the end of the year we filed a changed response, proposing 50/50.  I had to give a good reason for the change - why I was going back on what I had agreed to - and I did - I had learned that my wife probably had BPD (later confirmed) and that would not be best for the kids.

So my point was, you can either stick with the current schedule - your argument can be, "The kids are doing find and it's only been six months so there is no good reason to change it" - and that is likely to be supported by the court.  Or you can counter his request for more time, by asking for more time with the kids yourself - shift the schedule in your direction not his - and if you can give a good reason for it, that may work, or more likely it will result in both requests being denied and the schedule will stay the same.

Usually, if the kids are doing OK, the court won't change parenting time without a very good reason, especially so soon.

One additional thing to keep in mind:  My lawyer told me that if I agreed to 50/50 - not what I wanted but what I got - that in time the kids would probably spend most of their time with me anyway, because my ex would not really want them half the time.  And that is exactly what happened - I agreed to 50/50, but over the years they have spent more and more time with me, because they want to, and because I want them here, and because their mom just doesn't do well when they are with her too much.  She wants to be perceived as a full-time mom, but she doesn't seem to enjoy having them more than a few days a month, and she doesn't put much effort into making it good for them.

An example:  She doesn't have internet access, although it is cheap and she has a good job, so the kids need to spend time at my house most days doing their homework, even when they are supposed to be at her house that day.  Also, I got a place within walking distance of the school, so they can walk home and do their homework, but their mom got a place far away so they can't walk to her place.  So most days - even those they are supposedly with her - they walk home to my house, and do homework, and often stay for dinner and sometimes overnight, all because of internet access and where I live - things their mom could have done too but didn't.  Whether it's intentional or not, she makes many choices that result in the kids spending more time here, and that works very well.  But the court papers still say it's 50/50.

That strategy of "de facto primary custody" might work for you too - you already have primary custody but you might get even more time with the kids if you continue to provide well for them and if their father continues to struggle.  The key is just to focus on providing for all their needs, and making sure they always know they are welcome.

[livednlearned]

By hesitating and adding stuff to our settlement, I opened a can of worms.

You made a very reasonable judgment to ask for what you thought would be best.  Whether your stbX would have asked for more parenting time, if you had made a different decision, nobody can say.  It's probably not helpful to second-guess yourself and blame yourself for what he does.

I agree with Matt, blaming yourself is probably not helpful, and it's not really logical, not when there is a pwBPD involved. When you attribute his behavior to your actions, you just feed fuel to a dysfunctional dynamic. BPD is not cause and effect like it is with emotionally healthy people. Better to just focus on the fact that you did the right thing.

I am going to just say that this is the first I'm hearing of it and it's something we can talk about in the future, but doesn't make sense to incorporate it into an order all of a sudden.

Are you communicating with him directly about this? Because it might be better to let the Ls communicate. "The current order is working well for the girls. No changes to parenting time will be made at this time."

Because saying "Maybe we can talk about this later" sends the message that you are open to it. Are you? If a judge asked you why you would consider this in the future, what would you say?

From what you have written about your concerns here, it sounds like you want him to have even less time. So a consistent response is: No to more parenting time.

Period. Or are you changing your mind?

[Matt]

BPD is not cause and effect like it is with emotionally healthy people.

This is a super-important point, and something it's very hard to get.

One of my big revelations - it took several years of marriage to someone with BPD for me to figure this out - is that her dysfunctional behavior had nothing to do with me.  Even professionals sometimes don't get this - our first three marriage counselors all talked about "triggers" - if I would just avoid things that triggered her then her behavior would get better.  Not true!  (Unless her trigger was, say, oxygen.)

Over time I realized that, while I might do some things that would set her off, generally her behavior came from what she was feeling - from inside her - not from what happened in the here-and-now.  She had (and has) issues from her early life, and without the right therapy, those will stay with her, and make it very hard for her to act consistently normal.

Sensible to make sure I'm not doing anything that would trigger anybody - if I'm a jerk that's not helping things.  But not sensible to try to fine-tune my every word and action to avoid triggering her - can't be done, and just drives me nuts.

In the legal process, what this means is, steer by the stars - figure out what you believe will be best for the kids and for yourself, and be very clear about why - and communicate that consistently through the legal process, in motions and in front of the judge.  Don't try to figure out how to get the other party to act right, just do what you believe is right, and understand the legal process the best you can, so you can get the best outcome.

[momtara]

Yeah, I feel like I'm shining a little light on things a bit, so even if I opened a can of worms, I feel good.  I also feel good that we do have an existing order, so that sets a precedent.

BUT the thing about saying I want more time with them is, he has them every other weekend for one night, not even something in between, so that's only like TWO NIGHTS A MONTH.   So... .I will look like the controlling, selfish one if I ask for more time or don't want to be flexible.

Lawyers have told me that frequent visits with little kids are the norm - esp the baby.  So they might want to give that (the first agreement was done in mediation, not in court or with an evaluator, so a court may mess things all up).  That'd mean seeing my stbxh many more times than now.  I feel like I have to tiptoe around him all the time and I'm tired of that. 

The suggestion to just say that we've had this plan for 6 months and it's working, is a good one.  I can say we'll need an evaluation if he wants more.  I am open to him having Wednesday dinners, but I have to say that in a way that's not offensive.

Yes, I'll leave it to my lawyer to communicate. 

Thanks for your advice, and any more is welcome... .

[Matt]

The suggestion to just say that we've had this plan for 6 months and it's working, is a good one.  I can say we'll need an evaluation if he wants more.  I am open to him having Wednesday dinners, but I have to say that in a way that's not offensive.

This sounds like a very good, practical approach to me.

"It's only been six months - we've barely given our agreement time to work - but the girls seem to be doing well, so I don't agree to any changes now.  I would be open to recommendations from a court-appointed Custody Evaluator - a psychologist who can administer objective psychological evaluations - if Father would pay that cost.  Otherwise let's follow through with our agreement as long as the girls are doing well."

[livednlearned]

Yeah, I feel like I'm shining a little light on things a bit, so even if I opened a can of worms, I feel good.  I also feel good that we do have an existing order, so that sets a precedent.

BUT the thing about saying I want more time with them is, he has them every other weekend for one night, not even something in between, so that's only like TWO NIGHTS A MONTH.   So... .I will look like the controlling, selfish one if I ask for more time or don't want to be flexible.

I was worried about this too. But I have been consistent, and that worked out GREAT for me. I can't tell you how much pressure there was to agree to joint legal custody -- the sticking point during mediation that made it drag out an extra 5 hours. In the end, we agreed to disagree (no one told me that was even possible until it was 7pm that night). So my order says parties agree on this, that, and this, except for joint legal, in which the parties do not agree and it must go before a judge. Then nothing happened for 1.5 years. Until something bad happened.

It was important that I could return to that court document and say, "As far back as mediation, I knew that joint legal was going to be an issue. Now the court can see why."

So stick to your guns. Your instincts are good. You are showing the court that you know what you're talking about in case something happens. If you hand over more time, then something happens, then you don't have that leverage.

Lawyers have told me that frequent visits with little kids are the norm - esp the baby.  So they might want to give that (the first agreement was done in mediation, not in court or with an evaluator, so a court may mess things all up).  That'd mean seeing my stbxh many more times than now.  I feel like I have to tiptoe around him all the time and I'm tired of that. 

If your ex agreed to such little time, my guess is that he does not want more. And it sounds like he's leaving the kids with his parents anyway. That is probably going to stay the same. If the language can be very vague, like "Mr. Momtara can request visits with the baby outside of the court-ordered schedule" then I would think that's ok. My order had a lot of vague stuff too, like "N/BPDx can talk to S12 by Skype or phone whenever he wants."

It basically appeases your ex without having any teeth if he wanted to file a motion for contempt against you.

A judge would look at "can request visits with the baby" as just that. He can request. Doesn't mean you have to say yes.

[momtara]

That sounds good.

He also made some other requests.  We are responding with a letter giving in to some of those requests.  But not responding at all to the more outlandish ones, like parenting changes.  Then we'll be in court at the end of this week and see how it all plays out.  Please keep yer fingers crossed! 

[Matt]

That sounds good.

He also made some other requests.  We are responding with a letter giving in to some of those requests.  But not responding at all to the more outlandish ones, like parenting changes.  Then we'll be in court at the end of this week and see how it all plays out.  Please keep yer fingers crossed! 

That should show that you aren't fighting over everything just to fight - you're responding to what he asks and using your judgment about what is best for the kids.  Probably a good approach!

[momtara]

Knowing him, he may change his mind about the increased visitation anyway in a few days, so if I give in on some of the money stuff, he may not care as much.  I hope!  I am coming up with some compromises, too. 

A nice thing about our existing parenting time agreement is that it doesn't make any comments about the future.  So if he wants to change it, he has to go to court.  It doesn't have any provisions for change as the kids get older.  We are going to go with a parent coordinator (my idea) who may impose all kinds of things, but I am doing it in the kids' best interest, so I guess I should be glad about that even though it means less control.

[momtara]

Now he sent a letter asking for the same additional overnights.  I hoped he would back down.   He wants the kids every other Wednesday night to Thursday morning.  This is someone who told me he couldn't help me take care of them, all thru the marriage.  We are going to court tomorrow and hopefully we can shut them down, but my lawyer isn't reassuring. 

[momtara]

This thing isn't a trial tomorrow - just a situation where we're both supposed to go and submit a final economic plan.  But I added in that he has to stay in counseling, so he wants to add in all kinds of new stuff like changing parenting time. 

[ForeverDad]

Do you have that much confidence that counseling will make a difference?  I've always had the impression that family courts don't expect counseling to continue indefinitely, it's all based on the behaviors and once he behaves better court could let that requirement be shelved.  For example, Anger Management is a few classes and then it's over.  The problem is that once the requirement ends then you'd have to go back to court to get it reinstated.

Also, if he does get midweek time, do you expect for him to step up and be there regularly?  Or would it fade away?

[livednlearned]

Do you have that much confidence that counseling will make a difference?  I've always had the impression that family courts don't expect counseling to continue indefinitely, it's all based on the behaviors and once he behaves better court could let that requirement be shelved.  For example, Anger Management is a few classes and then it's over.  The problem is that once the requirement ends then you'd have to go back to court to get it reinstated.

Also, if he does get midweek time, do you expect for him to step up and be there regularly?  Or would it fade away?

You're asking for something not within the purpose of tomorrow's hearing, so he's doing the same. That kinda makes sense in a BPD way. His lawyer may even be counseling him to counter move like that.

So what happens if you can't agree on the counseling and overnights? Does the rest of the economic plan fall apart?

[momtara]

The midweek time would likely fade away, but I'd still have to ask him every week if he's taking it, and worry about it.  And he could take it just to get back at me if he's in a bad mood one day.  It's also a chance to make a case for 50/50 later.

He doesn't seem to be opposing the counseling anymore.  But is now asking for other things too, like less child support, etc, etc. 

[Matt]

He has no reason to oppose the counseling part, because he can just not do it, and nothing will happen.  His lawyer is probably telling him to agree to it and then do whatever he wants.

It's not worth fighting over the counseling.  If you agree to something, so he'll agree to that, you're basically just agreeing to whatever, and getting nothing in return.

(Our court order, which my wife agreed to in writing, says she has to get psychotherapy.  She hasn't done it, and no consequences.  It means nothing.)

[ForeverDad]

Of course he's asking for more.  ((Ahem, just like you are.))  That's what even a reasonably normal person might do but especially a pwBPD.  The difference is that a reasonably normal person would accept No as No, more or less and seriously consider reciprocating when settling.  A persistent pwBPD just won't stop and will (1) take every concession as an invitation and entitlement to keep asking for more and (2) try to get as many rights and privileges for as little financial responsibility as possible.

So I'm saying don't be afraid to say No, at least not until you get the package deal all negotiated.  Remember you won't get reciprocity, conceding one issue won't impel him to concede on something else.

A concern with 'negotiations' is that once you make a concession, the pwBPD generally feels entitled to ask for more.  And more.  Think of the Moving Goalpost illustration or the endless BPD Dance, every time you make a move, there's a counter move.  So rather than a concession being appreciated, it's often seen as weakness, a chink in your armor and an invitation for more pressure, manipulation and demands.

Yeah, that's absolutely what I found.

A couple ways to handle that - if the other party asks for X, and you think that's reasonable, you say, "I'll agree to X if you agree to Y." - a concession you think is important for her to make, and which is roughly proportionate.  "I'll agree to you having the kids 5 weeks each summer instead of 4, if you agree that they'll spend every spring break with me."

Or... .you can say, "Let me think about it.", and pile up those requests, and then ask, "Is that it or is there anything else you would like?"  And when the list of requests is complete, you respond all at once, saying, "I can't agree to A, B, or C, but I can agree to D, E and F, if you put them in writing today, and we finalize everything today."  Like a car dealer saying, "I can reduce the price by $100 but only if you buy the car today."  Puts an end to the negotiation - it's not more more more.

[livednlearned]

He has no reason to oppose the counseling part, because he can just not do it, and nothing will happen.  His lawyer is probably telling him to agree to it and then do whatever he wants.

It's not worth fighting over the counseling.  If you agree to something, so he'll agree to that, you're basically just agreeing to whatever, and getting nothing in return.

(Our court order, which my wife agreed to in writing, says she has to get psychotherapy.  She hasn't done it, and no consequences.  It means nothing.)

My lawyer said exactly that. N/BPDx's lawyer suggested coparenting. I dug in my heels (not knowing what it was, not trusting it, feeling sick about being in the same room together, worrying about the cost, etc.). She said, It's coming from his L. Do it once or twice, show a reasonable effort and then stop if it's not beneficial.

Also, most pwBPD do whatever they want, whether they agree to it or not. That's why so many of us are in court for years. 

If I were doing this all over again, I would ask my lawyer: what are things that we might file motions for contempt for? Meaning, what items have heft. Because pwBPD, unfortunately, do whatever they want, legal document or not. So the key is to focus on the stuff the court cares about. Counseling might not be one of them, or if it is, it will have to be linked to other documented behavior the court finds concerning, and only in relation to the kids.

[Matt]

Having said that, I'm glad that therapy for my ex is in our court order, because I think it may have moderated her behavior to some extent.  Before that, her behavior was pretty hostile.  Since that order was issued, it's been less aggressive.  I think one reason may be that if we ever go back to court, I'll be able to show that she hasn't complied with the court order - which she agreed to! - and that may be a big factor in my favor.

So... .if you look at it that way - as a potential advantage in any future court action - it might be worth something.  But if you look at it as a way to actually improve his mental health, I don't think that's realistic.  He will get better when he decides he needs help, not when somebody else - you or the court - tell him to.

[momtara]

Mine is actually scared of court and follows agreements.  So that part is worth it.

[momtara]

YESSSS

So we got divorced today and we didn't change the parenting time.

My instincts were right.  A week ago he sent, among other requests for the final settlement, a tripling of his overnights.  I compromised on a bunch of stuff and sent back a revised agreement, but TOTALLY ignored his request for parenting time.  He sent a letter back reiterating his request and some other stuff.  My lawyer wanted to postpone for two weeks to work it out via letter, and I said no.  It would just agitate my soon to be ex, and give him time to sit alone thinking of other things to add in.  Rather than triggering him, I said we should just work out the rest in person in court.  I knew he'd be better when talking to me than communicating via letters and lawyers.

So we all went to court today.  My lawyer sat down with his lawyer and talked jovially.  She said to him, "We're not discussing parenting time.  That's an order and we're not changing it."  Then they got into other stuff.

And that was that.  I compromised on money.  Who cares? 

XH also told me about the counseling he's in, and how it is helping him, and he understands why we had to get divorced, and he doesn't resent me.  This is such a change from earlier this year. 

Anyway, thanks to all of you for your help, esp livedandlearned, matt, foreverdad, etc.  It gave me strength to not buckle under and offer some kind of compromise on the parenting time.  He apparently wasn't too keen on it anyway - it was just meant to intimidate me, or at the time he wanted it, but when his mood shifted, he didn't care.

Sometimes you just wait long enough, and a pwBPD will cool off and drop it.

[livednlearned]

YESSSS

So we got divorced today and we didn't change the parenting time.

My instincts were right.  A week ago he sent, among other requests for the final settlement, a tripling of his overnights.  I compromised on a bunch of stuff and sent back a revised agreement, but TOTALLY ignored his request for parenting time.  He sent a letter back reiterating his request and some other stuff.  My lawyer wanted to postpone for two weeks to work it out via letter, and I said no.  It would just agitate my soon to be ex, and give him time to sit alone thinking of other things to add in.  Rather than triggering him, I said we should just work out the rest in person in court.  I knew he'd be better when talking to me than communicating via letters and lawyers.

So we all went to court today.  My lawyer sat down with his lawyer and talked jovially.  She said to him, "We're not discussing parenting time.  That's an order and we're not changing it."  Then they got into other stuff.

And that was that.  I compromised on money.  Who cares? 

XH also told me about the counseling he's in, and how it is helping him, and he understands why we had to get divorced, and he doesn't resent me.  This is such a change from earlier this year. 

Anyway, thanks to all of you for your help, esp livedandlearned, matt, foreverdad, etc.  It gave me strength to not buckle under and offer some kind of compromise on the parenting time.  He apparently wasn't too keen on it anyway - it was just meant to intimidate me, or at the time he wanted it, but when his mood shifted, he didn't care.

Sometimes you just wait long enough, and a pwBPD will cool off and drop it.

Hey, that's great! What a good outcome. Way to stay the course and stick to your plan. I'm happy for you 

I think this stuff has a ripple effect. It's so hard in the beginning, and then you start to see the pattern more clearly, and (if you have a good judge, good lawyers), and it gets easier to figure out how to manage really hard decisions.

I know divorce is hard for you, momtara (for all of us). But I hope you find some peace in it, see that it is a transition, a beginning, if you can see it that way.

[momtara]

Thanks!

My lawyer had no experience with BPD.  I spent a lot of time on-line reading stuff, and just being careful. 

I just took a loong nap!