Need some advice on 'closure-date'

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi Everybody,

Me and my xBPDgf broke up 3 months ago. NC (except for a few cold/business-like mails concerning some stuff I still had to pick up), uptill last weekend when we saw eachother again for the first time in the local store: both very nervous, yet at the same time it felt comfortable in a strange way. Had a phonechat yesterday for about 2 hours during which I became the 'old me' again from during our r/s: looking for some warmth, a bit of sweatness, etc (from what I red here on this boards she's passive aggressive)... .She admitted she was using her 'emotions off'-button (she realises now she has one as she's in therapy since we split). Guess she does this for 2 reason: 1. there aren't that much emotions left for me/she's focused on herself and 2. Out of self-protection (80 vs 20% probably). Anyway, we settled for drinks next Friday as we both have quiet some questions left, but I'm pretty sure I'll be sitting there feeling very small inside.

Any advice... .? Thx!

[Oulbopride]

Hi Everybody,

Me and my xBPDgf broke up 3 months ago. NC (except for a few cold/business-like mails concerning some stuff I still had to pick up), uptill last weekend when we saw eachother again for the first time in the local store: both very nervous, yet at the same time it felt comfortable in a strange way. Had a phonechat yesterday for about 2 hours during which I became the 'old me' again from during our r/s: looking for some warmth, a bit of sweatness, etc (from what I red here on this boards she's passive aggressive)... .She admitted she was using her 'emotions off'-button (she realises now she has one as she's in therapy since we split). Guess she does this for 2 reason: 1. there aren't that much emotions left for me/she's focused on herself and 2. Out of self-protection (80 vs 20% probably). Anyway, we settled for drinks next Friday as we both have quiet some questions left, but I'm pretty sure I'll be sitting there feeling very small inside.

Any advice... .? Thx!

[Learning_curve74]

My advice is so it somewhere public where other people can be witnesses. And don't expect anything she says to give you any peace of mind. I would also caution against believing what she says over the evidence of things she's done in the past.

You talked with her for two hours the other day. What are you hoping for specifically on Friday?

[emotionaholic]

Dont go.  The possibility of a recycle are enormous.  The door is closed leave it that way.

[Jonie]

From my experience: the two most important questions for yourself are: how bad is her BPD? And: do you really want her back in your life?

If you don’t want to go back there and if she is suffering from BPD rather severly, and maybe you just want to meet her to get some answers: it will be best not to have any further contact with her – however difficult that is. If she has BPD in a strong way, she will not be able to give you any valid answers. She’ll probably don’t even know herself what the truth is and may very well use the opportunity to say things that are hurtful to you. If she has BPD-light and is capable of self-reflection and of empathy for you, you could try.

If you do want her back, follow your own instincts. It may be that she has had a bad period, wanted some space for herself, knew no other way than to bury herself and shut you out. If she has a strong case of BPD, it may be a pattern of pulling and pushing away, almost always ending in a final break up. It may be so many things, and you will know her best.

I learned never to meet in a restaurant or other place where I can’t leave when I want. With my expwBPD I could always see in his eyes when he was getting psychotic or wanting to get difficult and then it was best to leave as soon as possible. When you’re having dinner, that’s not so easy.

[seeking balance]

Had a phonechat yesterday for about 2 hours during which I became the 'old me' again from during our r/s: looking for some warmth, a bit of sweatness, etc (from what I red here on this boards she's passive aggressive)... .She admitted she was using her 'emotions off'-button (she realises now she has one as she's in therapy since we split).

Question 1:  this sounds like a closure conversation - as such, what is the purpose of going for drinks?

Question 2:  Exactly what emotion did you feel when you agreed to meet for drinks?  Knowing your motivation make help you make a wise mind decision versus an impulsive/emotion-based decision.

[Lucky Jim]

I echo those above.  You're playing with fire, which raises the strong possibility of getting burned.

Suggest you tread very carefully here.  Any slip could result in a nasty fall, which could be much more painful than what you might anticipate.

Lucky Jim

[Oulbopride]

What are my expectations for Friday... .? That's the big question, ofcourse. I still love this woman, or better: I still long for her (like I did for the entire r/s. Never received the warmth & connection I - as every human being - needed), so the only really true answer is: love. Which is an illusion with her, I know... .

Some kind of closure then? We had quiet a bad breakup, so after ruminating/resenting for 3 months now, maybe we can split as 2 human beings instead of 2 enemies.

There's also more to the story than just she & me. Enter her mom (who apparently is jealous of her daughters and has tried everything to sabotage their relationships) and her mom's ex-lover (with whom I've been in contact with business-wise and who still tries to get the mom back... .). During our phonecall yesterday, my ex-gf told me that both her mom and this guy are saying that I not only proposed that he (75... .) and my ex-gf (33) would have sex, but also that I (39) would go for the mom (66). I would also have confessed to this guy that I had feelings for her mom (whom I knew from walking the dogs), prior to when I knew my ex... .Really, I always had the feeling that something wasn't 'right', but this is 'One flew over the Cuckoo's nest'!

Anyway, she agreed to meet eachother because she had some questions for herself... .I'll go and will answer any question she has.

[crookedeuphoria]

What are my expectations for Friday... .? That's the big question, ofcourse. I still love this woman, or better: I still long for her (like I did for the entire r/s. Never received the warmth & connection I - as every human being - needed), so the only really true answer is: love. Which is an illusion with her, I know... .

You still love and long for her. Which is an illusion with her.

Don't go. You'll never get the answers you need.

[seeking balance]

Anyway, she agreed to meet eachother because she had some questions for herself... .I'll go and will answer any question she has.

Most of us here were not done until we were done.  You'll know when you are done - until then, try to review the lessons on the staying board since you are consciously interacting with someone you know you could trigger and who triggers you.  Practice validation out loud - just like the book Stop Walking on Eggshells suggests.  Don't expect her to validate you - this is an unreasonable request and you will hurt you both if you have this expectation.


Best,

SB

[Oulbopride]

Seeking balance: you're right. I thought I was out (hence the post on this board), but given that she & I will see eachother to have a chat, I'll focus on the validation indeed. If I don't get anything out of that 'closure-date', at least I can try to give something to her.

And what's the purpose for going for drinks after the 2H phonecall... .Well, she said she wants to look me in the eye when I give her some answers (especially on the 'having feelings for her mom' and that other crap-story). Funny, cause I never, ever lied to her, and she knows... .On the other hand, she already knew this ridiculous lie 2 weeks before we broke up, but didn't say a single thing about it eventhough we were together everyday. Which woman says nothing when somebody tells her her boyfriend 'had feelings for her mom'?

And what I felt when I suggested drinks is: it's impossible she and I - after everything - would walk away from eachother like half-enemies (at the time of the bad breakup). Peace of mind, please... .please... .

Jonie: I'm not a doctor, but after what I've read here and what I've seen and heard from herself, it's not a light version. (IMHO: Quiet BPD/PAPD) Do I want her back in my life? I definitely do NOT want to go back to what it was, no. Better question would be: do I want her out of my life? You know the answer... .it's the same as for 90% of the people here on this boards. Emotionally, you're stuck. And it feels as if she's the strong one now. We just traded places over the r/s... .

Crookedeuphoria/Lucky Jim/Emotionaholic/Shadowdancer: I know you guys are right. So forgive me

[crookedeuphoria]

You have to do what's right for you. 2 hours from now, I might be doing the same thing   Best of luck!

[Tricky]

Oulbopride, you are in dangerous territory. As am I!

Just ended 3 months of no contact, and recently been on several 'closure dates' (actually walks in the woods) that have brought no closure or indeed anything positive for me. Just a chance for my ex to vent her anger and blame me for her problems and suicidal behavior, whilst dangling the chance for a rekindled love/recycle. And, of course, it has stirred up hornets nest of emotions, and weakened my resolve not to get re-involved with her.

Probably shouldn't have done it. It's messed with my head. I've posted regularly on the value of NC, and now ignored my own advice, big time. Paying a heavy emotional price for the lapse. And sure there's more to come my way. Can't believe I did it!

Be careful if you meet. It probably won't be as you hope.

Whatever you decide, good luck, and remember no one will judge your decision on this site, we are here to offer support and share our experiences.

[RecycledNoMore]

Expect a " sorry I cant make it txt"

[Octoberfest]

Anyway, she agreed to meet eachother because she had some questions for herself... .I'll go and will answer any question she has.

Most of us here were not done until we were done.  You'll know when you are done - until then, try to review the lessons on the staying board since you are consciously interacting with someone you know you could trigger and who triggers you.  Practice validation out loud - just like the book Stop Walking on Eggshells suggests.  :)on't expect her to validate you - this is an unreasonable request and you will hurt you both if you have this expectation.


Best,

SB

Shockingly ( ), SB has again made an incredibly wise and accurate statement.

I had friends looking at me like I was crazy (and perhaps, for a time I was) for staying with my BPDex through as much cheating and as many lies as I did... .the truth is that when it comes down to it, WE, the people involved with the pwBPD, finally decided when enough is enough.  It doesn't matter how much help friends or T's offer, it is up to us to decided when we need to start taking care of ourselves and stop letting ourselves be abused.

To the second bolded sentence... .This one kind of scares me.  I ended things and walked away from my BPDex 7 months ago now.  And I still have a small, uneasy feeling like there is something that is unfinished or incomplete there.  Honestly, it scares the hell out of me... .I have the same feeling about it as the general feeling I had throughout the entire relationship, waiting for the next hammer to drop, waiting for things to come back around again, etc.  Hopefully it never does... .but I have heard from more than one member on this board of them reconnecting with their BPDex's 20 years down the road.  Spooky stuff.


Go to the drinks if it is what you feel you must do.  I was only able to block my BPDex's number after she caused me a lot of distress and pain about 2 months after we split. I simply wasn't ready to stop talking to her until then... .and honestly there are time I get lonely and miss what I had (EDIT: Rather, what I thought I had in my mind), even for as broken as it was.  I still have work to do.

[BlushAndBashful]

I've had too many "closure-dates" to count, and I never got closure; in fact, the dates always ended up stirring up bad emotions in me, and usually just led to creating more questions and puzzlement. I can't tell you how many times I showed up, we talked for 2 hours, I would leave somewhat happy and fulfilled and at peace- and as I was driving away, I would say "wait a minute... .back up... .what just happened? What did he say? What did we just agree to? Wait, that's BS!"

I won't tell you not to go... .but I will say 1. expect a sudden change of plans (this meeting is much more important to you than her) and 2. expect it to be a major let-down. It won't live up to your expectations.

Just another crumb of introspection from someone who's been out over 2 years- Now, I find it odd that I needed closure dates with my pwBPD. Of all the r/s I've been in, I've never felt that need to have a final meeting or any sense of looking for answers. Usually, when it's over, it's just over and we part ways. Maybe one last meeting to hand off personal belongings.

[Oulbopride]

I really thank you all for the answers & advice! My hart still says the same things, but more & more this 'beautiful mind  ' is crawling back... .

I won't cancel this date (if she does, well: ok with me). This woman who knows she has the power over me, who knows her looks give me spaghetti-legs, who knows I get insecure inside when she plays it cool... .f*kkit: I'm gonna face her and I'm gonna give her the answers she wants. Naive... .I know, but at least in the long run I'll be knowing I've always been 'me'. If she can't offer me peace of mind on 'us', than at least I'll offer myself some peace of mind on 'me' (Amen!  )

[Oulbopride]

Mauser: "1. expect a sudden change of plans (this meeting is much more important to you than her) and 2. expect it to be a major let-down. It won't live up to your expectations."

Thanks for posting this... .she wanted to settle for an evening coming weekend. In case she's not sincere: she will show up, but only to tell me that she can only stay for a while as she has other plans later that evening (or a variation on that scenario). I'll prepare myself as good as I can... .

[santa]

Don't go. Nothing good can come from it.

[Oulbopride]

Ok... .I know I shouldn't be going and I realise the chances of me getting some 'closure' are small. I might end up being hurt even more than I already am. I fully realise this. I can almost feel it already in my stomach by just thinking about it... .but, IF I go, what are the tools I can use if/when I get the feeling she wants to - as I call it - plant a seed into my brain (as a revenge, to keep me ruminating)? As I said above, I'm still willing to give her the benefit of the doubt (against all odds, yes).  Sorry for being stupid... .

[State85]

Don't go... .no such thing as closure with a BPD.

[seeking balance]

IF I go, what are the tools I can use if/when I get the feeling she wants to - as I call it - plant a seed into my brain (as a revenge, to keep me ruminating)?

Can you elaborate on what you mean here?

[Oulbopride]

Hi SB,

In short: I always had the feeling she felt best when I was 'out of balance'. Never willing to discuss certain r/s issues, never giving straight answers to my questions, playing stupid, ignoring 'universal logic', etc... .

She said she always felt like she was the weak one in our r/s, whilst I felt as if she tried to pull me down in a very subtle way. So many questions, up to date... .

I think she likes it when she has 'the power' and I'm afraid that's how she wants to leave our upcoming meeting: as the one in charge. My question his: how to best react/respond when I have the feeling she's playing this game/trick? 

[seeking balance]

Hi SB,

In short: I always had the feeling she felt best when I was 'out of balance'. Never willing to discuss certain r/s issues, never giving straight answers to my questions, playing stupid, ignoring 'universal logic', etc... .

She said she always felt like she was the weak one in our r/s, whilst I felt as if she tried to pull me down in a very subtle way. So many questions, up to date... .

I think she likes it when she has 'the power' and I'm afraid that's how she wants to leave our upcoming meeting: as the one in charge. My question his: how to best react/respond when I have the feeling she's playing this game/trick? 

Projection is a common coping technique for stress pwBPD use - you describe it quite nicely here.

So, have you read anything about Radical Acceptance?  Apply this here - you cannot change that technique in her, nor can you call her out on it - you simply stay balanced and own your part - nothing more nothing less. 

It is not a game/trick - it is her. If you cannot accept her for who she is, you are going to continue to be frustrated when she projects.

What is your exact goal for this conversation?

Are you sure you are not simply wanting to see her at any cost? 

[Oulbopride]

SB: The answer on both your questions (from an earlier post):

... .As for the lessons to learn for the future/future r/s's: there's a section on this pages that's called "Looking for love in all the right places". In there it says "... .soul connection is tangible; there really is no guessing or wondering when the real thing comes along... .". And that particular line makes it even harder for me personally. From the first moment I saw my ex (standing next to her mom - whom I knew from walking the dogs - too shy to say anything, not even to look at me), I knew/felt this was "her". At that moment I had a flashback to when I was a little kid who's parents had divorced, lived with his mother, but who's moments of happiness and feeling 'safe' was during the spare weekends with his dad. The feeling I had during these spare WE's was my definition of 'happiness' and I've always been looking/waiting for the girl/woman with whom I'd have this same feeling.

There she was and there was that feeling, for the first time ever and we hadn't even spoken yet. Makes it all more double afterwards: really glad it's all over because it slowly kills you inside, at the same time afraid that it's a one-off something. Wicked... .(end)

What can I say... .? The only way to cope with this whole situation is considering it as some kind of "cosmic misunderstanding". But that would mean that one of the deepest feelings I carried with me for over 35 years was nothing more than a lie... .It simply doesn't make sense. (Or it should be that like 'Great minds think alike", damaged goods also 'feel alike'. Boy, is there a doctor in the room?

The way to go for the upcoming meeting is 'to give', not to get anything out of it. Thanks for mentioning the Radical Acceptance, I'll dive into that one. 

[seeking balance]

The way to go for the upcoming meeting is 'to give', not to get anything out of it. Thanks for mentioning the Radical Acceptance, I'll dive into that one. 

I say this kindly, you don't sound "done" and that is ok... .we are not done until we are done.  I wan't nor anyone else here.  And many times people go from staying to leaving to undecided before really choosing a path.  From watching others and from my own experience, if I could give you any words of wisdom it would be to choose the path you want, not as a reaction to what your pwBPD does.

As such, the lessons on staying are valuable in LIFE, not simply a BPD relationship.  Communication skills, boundaries, emotional self-soothing, radical acceptance, every bit of this will help you in life.  Before you meet with her, please do yourself and her a favor and spend time reading the lessons and the posts on Staying so you will be able to keep your own balance and not get thrown when you are in communication with her.

The leaving board focuses on clear detaching, grief and learning "what just happened"... .not so much on the tools you will need to stay in communication with your BPD.

Good luck!

SB

[Learning_curve74]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You won't necessarily be able to make her understand and vice versa. The understanding and "closure" is there for you to discover for yourself. However, there are ways you can still give her compassion without hurting yourself if you are nonattached. As seeking balance suggests, you can communicate compassionately with her using the tools described on the Staying board.

On a different note, as you mentioned feeling off balance, for further understanding of possible relationship dynamics, please read this article: Karpman Drama Triangle. You may find it illuminating. Often in the drama triangle, people will eventually work to be in the "one-up" position with consequences for the other person, but many people cycle through all the positions (victim, rescuer, persecutor).

[Cardinals in Flight]

Stumbling through a mine field in the dark with a cocktail in hand!

Advise? Alcohol and BPD "questions" don't mix. Cancel the date.

EXACTLY!

[rodman8]

When my ex and I got together for our "closure date, " it went terribly wrong.  We broke up a week before we were supposed to get together.  It was going to be a great weekend, but then she breaks up with me before the meeting happened.  She lives 300 miles from me, and she told me she broke up with me now so that I could make up my own mind if I wanted to still try and see her... .relatively noble on her part, I thought.  In any case, I decided to go not knowing if I was going for the purpose of closure, or going to try and rekindle things.  The day before the date, she was talking to me like nothing happened, so I wanted to see if we could still hang out and be lovers.  It started off relatively nice.  She ordered me a giant sized margarita, and ordered a small one for herself.  Everything was fine until we made it to the second bar.  I sensed that she was "testing" me and taking minor/subtle jabs at my ego.  That got me in an emotional frame of mind,, and when we went out to the car, I told her that I felt that she was acting as if she was trying to be emotionally "distant" around me (as there were people at the bar who knew her), as if she did not want anyone knowing that we dated or were dating.  I asked her if she "is ashamed of me or something," and that set her off.  She walked out of the car, went to her car, and left.  I tried pleeding with her to stay, but to no avail.  She took off and left me in tears.  I regretted so bad that she seen me cry.  We were supposed to hang out the next day as well, as I was left staying in my hotel room not knowing what hit me.  The next day she called me, but would not see me.  All over a stupid tift we had.  It was not even anything major.  It was hard to believe that the woman who drove 300 miles to see me three different times and confessed her undying love to me was the same person that showed herself that night.  Worse yet, I totally showed pitiful weakness in front of her instead of standing up for myself. 

If you do meet with her, please DO NOT DRINK!  Maybe just have a beer or two to take the edge off, but nothing more.  Things WILL escalate, I promise you.