How do you express your feelings to them when they hurt you?

[Devin6]

I'm dealing with a sudden recent realization as to what BPD means to my relationship with my gf of nearly 3 months. This month has seen the rise of the painful aspect of the BPD relationship and I'm finding myself more and more unsatisfied and paralyzed by an inability to find a means to express myself.

She told me about 2 months ago that her therapist had just diagnosed her with BPD, which I didn't think too much about. She's also told me that she has a deceitful relationship with her therapist where she doesn't inform him of everything in her life, some extreme sexual kinks which she fears he'll see as a reason to lock her up or something, as well as pretending she's on some medication he gave her which she says she doesn't take. This diagnosis appears to be recent, though I don't feel like she thinks of it much at all. I also have no idea how often she sees her therapist if at all since the diagnosis.

This month being the bad month that lead me to taking BPD seriously, I have come to a point where I find myself unable to make a decision on how to deal with our problems. She has soft-recycled me three times in a 7-10 day period just about a month ago, meaning it was a fast breakup that ended within an hour every time, all predicated on relatively meaningless exchanges where I said sometime that insulted her deeply or hurt.

There is ALOT of stuff I could describe to help people understand the nature of what her disorder seems to focus on. Rape victim. Abandoned by her father and estranged which appears to be at the core of what lead to this disorder, as well as non sexual abuse by elders when she was young. Also she has an apparently extreme interest in S&M involving being submissive and receiving pain and degradation which she describes as being the only release she can get when she feels utterly worthless or loathes herself. The feeling she describes is being so battered and in pain that she is unable to think or feel anything and this is a form of bliss. What is interesting about this aspect of her is that she stated that with respect to our relationship she didn't want or even believe I could fulfill this "need" of hers, and says she wants to move away from it as she feels like she's "worth more than that". However she's semi-recently expressed uncertainty about whether she can actually get by without it culminating in a near break up over thinking I can't be the person she needs who can do it for her. So we have done none of the S&M related things sexually together.

Now I am thinking about what she's said about who I am to her and trying to see if this is all deceit or how much of it can be considered reliable. I am supposed to be the nice guy who saves her from this kind of behavior. Thats a red flag for BPD I guess. She's said I'm different from all her previous recent BFs who she said were sexual sadists. I'm inclined to believe this, but the rapid way she brought on the love declaration combined with the manipulative way she wielded it during our soft breakups has altered my confidence in believing feelings, but without any true sense of where to find the cracks and sort out the bullhit entirely.

Recently she's begun to violate inappropriate boundaries and any attempt to express unhappiness with this has head to being given hell, defensively. Splitting I think is what its called. I get split and I have to either apologize or leave her alone for an hour or two minimum. I feel punished for trying to express how her behavior makes me feel, even if I take a non judgmental approach to it, at least initially.

Up until now I realize Ive taken the wrong approach to talking to her, the healthy ways that don't work on BPD. What I need now to do is figure out how to communicate my feelings, express how I feel when she violates something that feels like a boundary, and unfortunately this isn't one of those clear cut socially objectionable boundaries like theft or something or outright abusive treatment. Its something that would require minor debate or rationalization because its about a personal boundary, how it makes me feel and why, so I'm not sure how to express this without being given the split.

From reading I feel confident I'm beginning to understand the roots of things like emotional validation when she's having one of her moments of dysregulation, but when it comes to trying to engage with her about how her behavior makes me feel I am stuck. I find myself unable to open my mouth without fearing a breakup or a freeze out or some pathetic instinct to apologize for having rippled the serenity of being passive.

In general I feel like I need to bring up her BPD which we've basically had zero discussion of since the one time she mentioned her diagnosis because otherwise I'll feel like I"m "handling" her so to speak and that without an honest sharing of the realities of the disorder I can't hope for any longterm improvement of the prognosis. I also feel like I have enmeshment or codependence issues that stem from my own history and its obviously what lead me here. So I'm not even sure if I'm sane for wanting to try to make this relationship work when it feels like it might be me trying to stay with something thats just plain unhealthy on both sides.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

Most of what you describe here is common. Much of what she has confided in you is probably "colored" at the least.

But to start with the basics I will pick out this bit

Recently she's begun to violate inappropriate boundaries and any attempt to express unhappiness with this has head to being given hell, defensively.

They are not Boundaries, what you a have in place are requests for preferred behavior. Boundaries are not defended with expressing unhappiness. You action something to make sure it is not happening, there is no need to express anything. There is no negotiation of where the line is. pwBPD will cross a boundary if you have no physical means of preventing it.

This RS is only 3 months, you are still likely to be painted in rescuer mode, and everyone prior as persecutor.

S&M itself is about challenging boundaries, and living out an alter ego, this is all BPD land.

Trying to understand BPD is hard, but first of all you must decide what is important to you, and protect that first and foremost otherwise you will slowly compromise and find yourself in a place you don't want to be.

There are two types of expressing yourself. Firstly your right to your version of reality, and secondly a desire to convince someone else of your version and to have them accept it. The first is positive, but the latter can be destructive as it is attempting to control what you cannot control, and that is the thoughts and actions of others.

Believe in your own truth but dont try hard selling it to someone who is not open to buying it. Simply protect yourself from having someone else's truth imposed on you unwillingly, either by force, or by slight of hand.

[Devin6]

So for now you're saying I should work to establish my hard boundaries and not attempt to engage in a more nuanced mutually-aware conversation about BPD?

For me part of the problem is when I feel hurt I want to talk about it. I want to have an empathy response and feel validated, even if the result isn't a full alteration of the situation, but rather a sense of respect for how I feel without necessarily judging or condemning the cause. Basically a "I felt anxious and upset when you did this". Am I naive to think this is even possible at this juncture?

As for actually articulating the boundary, do I bother with explaining how or why it makes me feel a certain way, or do I just drop a flat ":)on't do it or else [something" statement? I feel like I could just end up in a splitting moment doing the latter.

[waverider]

So for now you're saying I should work to establish my hard boundaries and not attempt to engage in a more nuanced mutually-aware conversation about BPD?

yes

For me part of the problem is when I feel hurt I want to talk about it. I want to have an empathy response and feel validated, even if the result isn't a full alteration of the situation, but rather a sense of respect for how I feel without necessarily judging or condemning the cause. Basically a "I felt anxious and upset when you did this". Am I naive to think this is even possible at this juncture?

yes, pwBPD dont think like that. You can speak your feelings, that is your right, but it wont be taken on board at a deeper level. It will be dismissed if, and when, it conflicts with their immediate impulse, leaving you feel betrayed.

As for actually articulating the boundary, do I bother with explaining how or why it makes me feel a certain way, or do I just drop a flat ":)on't do it or else [something" statement? I feel like I could just end up in a splitting moment doing the latter.

Often prewarning is not necessary as that can preempt conflict as you correctly observed. Explaining boundaries can lead to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) this often pushes you off topic away from the moral ground and hence bypassing the boundary.

Boundaries will not be respected or understood, they will in effect keep banging on that locked door and accusing you of everything in the hope you will cave (Exinction Burst). It takes resilience on your part.

Think of all your boundaries and actions in advance, not on the fly. That way it will be easier to be consistent and concise. Folding once will give intermittent reinforcement. That is like the pull of gambling after one good win, there is always going to be the possibility of another with persistance.

Dont make boundaries over trivial issues, you wont reinforce them and your RS will be nothing but conflict. Just start with a couple of serious issues that really chew you up inside. Its not about right or wrong, or even fairness. Its about what you really can't live with.

Until you have solid boundaries in place you wont have a firm understanding of where you stand, and your safety net.They are your foundations to build the rest on

[Devin6]

Thats really well explained and clear. I'll work with that for now.

My only concern is if issues which are more nebulous really become my bane. Such as what if one of the common and normal monogamous boundaries she's violating is inappropriately familiar behavior towards other men we know, men who are supposed to just be her friends, but who she starts to show greater aspects of intimacy with, things which were originally the realm of our private intimacy which are effectively transferred from me to them? These may not be sexual or romantic things, but simply things which represent attention, even affection, and which I find myself starved of. I've begun to see some of these things and they're hard to pin down, its just a feeling more than a definable action which on its own could be easily condemned to a boundary. I guess its part of the pull in push out thing, I got the cling now I have to live without it. I suppose this would be where you advise guarding my own reality, keeping myself grounded in something beyond the relationship, avoiding enmeshment?

[waverider]

It comes down to how it makes you feel deep down inside. It is not just about what would seem normally acceptable or appropriate, as a BPD relationship will not be normal.

Does it make you feel sick inside, and you just can make yourself comfortable with it no matter how you look at it? If so it needs a boundary or it will destroy the RS.

You will get excuses and accusations in response, if you defend your reasons, you will cut a compromise, feel manipulated which breeds resentment which will surface in other areas. Conflict will spread without really knowing why. The RS will fail.

It is possible to have a happy, yet a totally dysfunctional BPD relationship. There is nothing you can do to reign it back to "normal' only a pwBPD can do that.

A bit of tough love at the start will pay dividends, it is a lot hard to pull back later as many here will attest to.

[MammaMia]

How about simply saying. "What you just said (or did) really hurts my feelings" and then leave it at that.  No explanation, no justification, no arguing.  Just walk away.

I have found that my dBPDs often thinks about statements like this AFTER the immediate rage has passed, when he is more in control of his emotions.  PwBPD do  understand "feelings" as opposed to "I think or I believe" statements.

The wheels in their brain keep turning when it is convenient for them.  During the midst of an argument is not one of those times.

[waverider]

How about simply saying. "What you just said (or did) really hurts my feelings" and then leave it at that.  No explanation, no justification, no arguing.  Just walk away.

This good, probably wont make  whole lot of difference in stopping whatever it is happening again, but it will make you feel a whole lot better. Which is half the battle.

MammaMia is right though in saying that often what you say is heard even if not acknowledged at the time. It is a good reason to say little and dont get drawn onto a tangent it just buries what you said underneath a whole lot of smoke screening.

[Devin6]

Because she and I had a particularly good night last night I want to reflect on some things that make me feel good about this relationship, just cause.

- Though she and I don't acknowledge her disorder openly beyond the fact she told me she has it, she's very aware of her self-loathing feelings and she believes she's worth more than that, that she wants to feel better about herself. There is a self-awareness to some degree of what underlies much of her disorder and that makes me feel positive.

- When I allow myself to be vulnerable to her she actually seems to acknowledge things. She makes me feel accepted, and she makes me feel good for sharing them with her. I don't feel like if I talk about my feelings that she'll be disinterested unless its about her. That isn't to say that sometimes she doesn't seem more narcissistic, just that when she's in a good place she makes me feel like she's as good as any girlfriend to me.

- Last night I saw several opportunities for her to start dysregulating. By using things I learned here I basically stopped them dead in their tracks and our good time continued for hours on end til we went to sleep. I felt so empowered by my ability to help her retain emotional stability, not like I was manipulating her, but like I was understanding how she was feeling and giving her the emotional validation she needed to stay in control of herself. I felt like I was helping her, not like I was just doing something for myself to keep her off my back, and thats the best thing of all because up til I started coming here the BPD moments were beginning to make me feel resentment and lead to that kind of selfish thinking.

- She did today do something BPDish but by putting it into perspective, retaining a sense of my own reality, pushing back on the enmeshed tendency which would allow it to cause me emotional distress I've not been bothered by it the way I might have. In fact it barely bothers me at all.

- Finally, I've also faced the fact that there are big issues with myself that I need to focus on. I was drawn to a BPD person for a reason and I've started to see how I've welcomed much of the dysfunctional behavior that underlies a pwBPD's drive to attach. Understanding how I am half of a 2 person dysfunctional relationship helps me keep perspective and reduce resentment over petty things that have happened since I started reading here. Saying "I'm screwed up too" makes it easier to feel closer to her when the realities of BPD might make me want to feel like a martyr.

This place is already helping me and I feel very good about things today. Small small things, but I guess every little bit counts. I still haven't done any boundary setting, but thats because I haven't needed to in the last 2 days. I'm actively thinking of how to do that when it comes up again and what those things will be.

Thanks guys.

[MammaMia]

Devin6

That is totally awesome!  Congratulations and keep up the good work.  There are ways to minimize the BPD fallout.

We are so happy you have found this site helpful.  Thank YOU for sharing.

[bruceli]

I'm dealing with a sudden recent realization as to what BPD means to my relationship with my gf of nearly 3 months. This month has seen the rise of the painful aspect of the BPD relationship and I'm finding myself more and more unsatisfied and paralyzed by an inability to find a means to express myself.

She told me about 2 months ago that her therapist had just diagnosed her with BPD, which I didn't think too much about. She's also told me that she has a deceitful relationship with her therapist where she doesn't inform him of everything in her life, some extreme sexual kinks which she fears he'll see as a reason to lock her up or something, as well as pretending she's on some medication he gave her which she says she doesn't take. This diagnosis appears to be recent, though I don't feel like she thinks of it much at all. I also have no idea how often she sees her therapist if at all since the diagnosis.

This month being the bad month that lead me to taking BPD seriously, I have come to a point where I find myself unable to make a decision on how to deal with our problems. She has soft-recycled me three times in a 7-10 day period just about a month ago, meaning it was a fast breakup that ended within an hour every time, all predicated on relatively meaningless exchanges where I said sometime that insulted her deeply or hurt.

There is ALOT of stuff I could describe to help people understand the nature of what her disorder seems to focus on. Rape victim. Abandoned by her father and estranged which appears to be at the core of what lead to this disorder, as well as non sexual abuse by elders when she was young. Also she has an apparently extreme interest in S&M involving being submissive and receiving pain and degradation which she describes as being the only release she can get when she feels utterly worthless or loathes herself. The feeling she describes is being so battered and in pain that she is unable to think or feel anything and this is a form of bliss. What is interesting about this aspect of her is that she stated that with respect to our relationship she didn't want or even believe I could fulfill this "need" of hers, and says she wants to move away from it as she feels like she's "worth more than that". However she's semi-recently expressed uncertainty about whether she can actually get by without it culminating in a near break up over thinking I can't be the person she needs who can do it for her. So we have done none of the S&M related things sexually together.

Now I am thinking about what she's said about who I am to her and trying to see if this is all deceit or how much of it can be considered reliable. I am supposed to be the nice guy who saves her from this kind of behavior. Thats a red flag for BPD I guess. She's said I'm different from all her previous recent BFs who she said were sexual sadists. I'm inclined to believe this, but the rapid way she brought on the love declaration combined with the manipulative way she wielded it during our soft breakups has altered my confidence in believing feelings, but without any true sense of where to find the cracks and sort out the bull entirely.

Recently she's begun to violate inappropriate boundaries and any attempt to express unhappiness with this has head to being given hell, defensively. Splitting I think is what its called. I get split and I have to either apologize or leave her alone for an hour or two minimum. I feel punished for trying to express how her behavior makes me feel, even if I take a non judgmental approach to it, at least initially.

Up until now I realize Ive taken the wrong approach to talking to her, the healthy ways that don't work on BPD. What I need now to do is figure out how to communicate my feelings, express how I feel when she violates something that feels like a boundary, and unfortunately this isn't one of those clear cut socially objectionable boundaries like theft or something or outright abusive treatment. Its something that would require minor debate or rationalization because its about a personal boundary, how it makes me feel and why, so I'm not sure how to express this without being given the split.

From reading I feel confident I'm beginning to understand the roots of things like emotional validation when she's having one of her moments of dysregulation, but when it comes to trying to engage with her about how her behavior makes me feel I am stuck. I find myself unable to open my mouth without fearing a breakup or a freeze out or some pathetic instinct to apologize for having rippled the serenity of being passive.

In general I feel like I need to bring up her BPD which we've basically had zero discussion of since the one time she mentioned her diagnosis because otherwise I'll feel like I"m "handling" her so to speak and that without an honest sharing of the realities of the disorder I can't hope for any longterm improvement of the prognosis. I also feel like I have enmeshment or codependence issues that stem from my own history and its obviously what lead me here. So I'm not even sure if I'm sane for wanting to try to make this relationship work when it feels like it might be me trying to stay with something thats just plain unhealthy on both sides.

Dealing with this right now with PDw... .

[123Phoebe]

Hey Devin6,

Just wanted to say that it's great when we're able to recognize our own contribution to some of the madness.  A relief actually, with a whole lot more empathy for our partners after that.

I try to express my feelings by making it known that they are MY feelings.  Not that he's making me feel this way.  We stand separately.  I'll even ask him for advice on how to handle certain situations (this just came up).  It gave me a much better perspective of where he's coming from.  He does not want to hurt my feelings, he blames himself, he doesn't want to lose me, he feels bad about himself. 

There's a lot of shame, blame and fear going on below the surface, which makes some of his behaviors pretty obvious.  They are his feelings and they're real.  They're not used malevolently towards me.

Knowing all of this helps me in some of our not so great moments; to not take things personally.  But to also be keenly aware of what's going on below the surface with me and how to bring this stuff up without heaping more blame and shame upon him.

I'm so glad he feels free enough and safe enough to share himself in such a way... .deeply

Keep reflecting and thanks for sharing

[Devin6]

Just wanted to say that it's great when we're able to recognize our own contribution to some of the madness.  A relief actually, with a whole lot more empathy for our partners after that.

Absolutely! It was incredible really. Instant change in perspective has allowed me to moderate my own emotional reactions and rechannel my energy into addressing the issue at hand with the right attitude, not just with some stubborn adherence to the unspoken rules of healthy person relationships that just don't apply most of the time now.

Its like relearning to speak english.

I try to express my feelings by making it known that they are MY feelings.  Not that he's making me feel this way. 

This is what I've settled on as well as to how to do it, but the hardest part is avoiding the "you're making me feel" part.

The support here is great.

[ucmeicu2]

Last night I saw several opportunities for her to start dysregulating. By using things I learned here I basically stopped them dead in their tracks and our good time continued for hours on end til we went to sleep. I felt so empowered by my ability to help her retain emotional stability, not like I was manipulating her, but like I was understanding how she was feeling and giving her the emotional validation she needed to stay in control of herself.

hi devin, that is so inspiring!  if you have time, i'd love to hear what skills/technique/strategies you used... .  maybe some examples?  (or a play-by-play if you have time to jot down a novella, )... .  i have such a hard time putting what i read into effect, without some examples or role-playing.  thanx!

[waverider]

Just wanted to say that it's great when we're able to recognize our own contribution to some of the madness.  A relief actually, with a whole lot more empathy for our partners after that.

It gives us back a feeling of purpose as it is something we can address, rather than just being a helpless victim. we can't fix it, but at least we have a sense of direction

[Kizza]

Hi Devin6

I have been with my partner for almost two years now and everything u have written/explained is almost the same as reading my own thoughts and feelings.

I would love to pick ur brain as to what it is you do and how u achieve such a relieving outcome? Because I'm still very lost as this is all new to me and every approach I have tried is failing miserably.

However hard it gets I've opted to stay with my partner. Purely from love though not sympathy or in hope to fix her but solely love itself.

[waverider]

Hi Devin6

I have been with my partner for almost two years now and everything u have written/explained is almost the same as reading my own thoughts and feelings.

I would love to pick ur brain as to what it is you do and how u achieve such a relieving outcome? Because I'm still very lost as this is all new to me and every approach I have tried is failing miserably.

However hard it gets I've opted to stay with my partner. Purely from love though not sympathy or in hope to fix her but solely love itself.

Stay with it an be patient, it often take a long time before you can start to feel improvements.A lot of it is about how easily you can detach yourself from the effects of the disorder.

[Devin6]

@Kizza and ucmeicu2,

I posted this in another thread here. Basically sums up how I adapted to tonight's drama. I was surprised at its effectiveness.

*After a string of extremely negative thinking about something that was actually very positive that involved swearing at me and being very vulgar and saying explicitly to leave her alone, verbatim*

[via text]

Me: you're mad at me?

*silence*

Me: I don't feel like I deserve to be talked to this way

Me: I don't like how it makes me feel

Me: Ill talk to you later

Her: you're just going to leave?

Her: figured

Me: you told me to leave you alone

Me: 8 minutes ago

Me: after that you swore at me and made it clear I shouldn't try to talk to you, if you want to talk to me then I want to be here, but if you don't then I won't pester you

Her: call me then then

Proceeded to tell me she wasn't actually mad at me. Didn't apologize, but... .well take what I can I guess. I followed up with validation of her feelings that went something like "I know how that makes you feel. I hate it when its like that". Within a few minutes it was pretty cheery. Later she brought up the issue again, a few times, just out of the blue. Like, *pause in conversation* "I f***ing hate that", at which point I gently stated I understood why she felt that way or something to that effect. Was then able to make some humour, divert from that tangent again.

Without the conversation history staring at her as my words "You said it to me 8 minutes ago" arrived I don't think she would have stopped being that way to me. I found it was key to salvaging tonight. Thats only an 8 minute gap, but I don't know yet how far back I can dig and expect a satisfactory response from her just yet.

I feel like the above was really effective with how I described my feelings without accusing her first, at least too much, even though she immediately made a classic BPD reply to it, because the confrontation immediately after about how contradictory it is to accuse me of leaving when she told me to go seemed to stifle the tangent she was on. It was probably greatly helped by that fact that she wasn't particularly angry at me, just in my general direction, and also that I had convenient evidence that she was a hypocrit that could attack the irrational emotional things in her mind instantaneously as it was on the screen at the same time. It was a moment where I start to draw conclusions about her unique BPD-ness, how it affects her in particular, how its different than with others. I'd say in this situation it felt milder than what I read in some people's threads and posts here.

I call this a calculated event because I broke some rules somewhat. I told her how I felt not believing it would be a means to draw down the splitting that seemed to be hitting me, more that it was a gesture to my self respect, something I could use to make myself feel good when I looked in the mirror the next day. In the end the situation afforded me a chance to ninja the BPD out of making me disengage while she cooled down. It allowed me to cool her down by being there to let her vent immediately after.

Not a typical moment, not something I expect to be workable day to day, but certainly for me a powerful victory as it was another growth moment for my BPD skill-set which I've only been working on for less than a week. I started that conversation with her SHAKING, I was so stressed out by her mood. It was the first time I'd ever realized what it could do to me, beyond a general sense of misery or frustration. The release from having validated my own feelings to her verbally, followed by a partial mea-culpa (pretty lame one by most standards) made this night... .a good night. Oh boy, gotta love how us screwed up peopel guage what a good night is. XD

[Devin6]

So here's tonight.

We're both up, not together, talking online. It gets to the end of the night. She becomes engrossed in a conversation with a friend, a man, someone we both know and her focus on me tapers off, I sense it and feel the beginnings of jealous feelings. She confides in me after I press her slightly that he's miserable at being single, doesn't like being social, wants to find a girlfriend. I'm not sure exactly what her intention with talking to him is, but he's one of the guys where I feel she may have an inappropriate level of interaction with him, but not with much evidence just a feeling. Earlier in the night she'd described him in a way which made me uncomfortable. "Her man", which bothered me as she made jokes in the past, in public social gatherings as well, about him being like an online bf. I got upset about this, explained to her how it made me feel. "For a man hearing a woman call him 'her man' is a powerful thing. Hearing you say that about him made me feel upset." She didn't apologize, but didn't get angry. She deflected its significance, but nothing came of it. Later she implied it was sweet how I took it personally. She likes my intensity of emotion about things apparently.

Then the thing thats bothering me most. The important bits via a skype window:

Her: well

he's telling me personal ___

hes fly depressed because he wants a gf he can wake up to

rly*

Me: seriously?

Her: yea

don't you say a word

Me: and you thought he had no passion

Her: you did

you put it in my mind

Me: what?

Her: he said he hates that in order to get one he has to be social

that he just wants someoen to talk to

and i told him "aw you have me"

and he says "i meant someone to wake up to"

and i was like AWWW WOW YOU SWEET GUY

and i thought he had no feels

later... .

Her: babe

if you wanna lay down you can

I don't want to leave him hanging when he's super depressed about being an introvert trying to date ladies

Me: Im reading a book and flipping through tunes

Her: ok

and about an hour later... .

Me: k, Im lying down

Her: ok babe

ill call you on Skype when I'm ready to sleep

(heart)

Anyway, about 90 minutes later I woke up again, realized she'd fallen asleep without ever calling me and it sent me into a jealous spiral of anxiety. At this point I said to myself "Hello Mr. Codependent". I also then felt conflicted though, because I was clearly seeing her taking some inappropriate steps with him. She was being very emotionally available to him, which bothers me because she's often not so for me, and making territorial characterizations of him that are generally how you'd talk about a romantic interest and not just a friendly one, then she gives him the privilege (I assume) of falling asleep talking to him and not me as we usually do when we aren't together. Her open suggestion that his need for someone to confide in could be satisfied by her really stands out to me as well. At the same time her candor about this suggests to me that she sees nothing wrong with it, its not as if she's trying to hide anything for the purposes of cheating. She is just doing what I believe many BPD's do to varying degrees with breaking the typical social-norm boundaries of emotional monogamy.

So whats my analysis? Well there is something of what she's doing that is clearly not healthy, to some extent. But much of what is bothering me is clearly on me. I have come to expect the codependent experience of her going to sleep with me, wanting that ultimate connection to close out the day. That she was so easily able to "forget about me" as I feel about it makes me feel anxious and casts doubt on my sense of security. This clearly to me is part of my contribution to the unhealthy parts of our relationship.

However, what really sticks me is that even in a healthy relationship someone should be jealous likely, I think they would most of the time. Her active desire to be this man's support ires me but then the surface is that he's just a friend, but the soft quiet details, the suspicious "gut feeling" stuff makes it clearly inappropriately beyond this to me.

What can I do to help this whole thing? Get out of the habit of needing that codependent validation of my feelings and my sense of security about the relationship. This is I'm seeing a classic part of me. Its been in every relationship I've had, the doubt from a usually innocuous lack of some thing that my partner would or I think should give me. However, its not helped by a prior major relationship involving that gut feeling being 100% correct when I KNEW that my gf was with someone and that she was going to cheat on me that night. I knew it before it happened and sure enough by the end of the night she broke down and told me, and so my gut was right in reinforcing my clearly acute fears that come from a lack of constant reinforcement of affection and commitment.

So my gut is probably right about how inappropriate her interest in him on an emotional level is. My gut also aides me in overreacting and my codependence turned her neglectful breaking of a promise tonight to call me and fall asleep with me when she KNEW I was staying up for that into something that I can't get out of my head. It also leaves me with this problem.

How do I set a boundary when so much of this is about my own unhealthy thinking and her supporting a friend with just the trace of inappropriate behavior? Its not so clear cut is it? I'd need to have a conversation about what it means, their emotional involvement, how it measures against whats expected in a relationship, and in the end what do I say to her? My value is that I don't like you being emotionally available to other men beyond whats normal in a monogamous relationship? Don't support your friend that way even if you don't acknowledge the distinction between whats inappropriate and appropriate? My only option really seems to be to let it go and make myself not be affected by it.

Lastly, I wonder if there could be a link between her promise to call me when she goes to sleep and it being linked to how I told her calling him "Her man" bothered me earlier in the night? Is this perhaps her round about way of validating this thing I felt and acknowledging that I would feel jealous while she's talking to him? Maybe I'm just trying to forgive her or read too much into this all? Maybe she just passed out from exhaustion and will apologize tomorrow. Could she have told me she'd call me cause she realized how supporting her friend would make me feel cause she's aware I'm prone to that? This is when my brain goes into soup mode and I get confused about what to think. I'm probably just overanalyzing this now. In a normal relationship I could say "did you just tell me you'd call me cause you knew I'd feel jealous if you told me to go to bed?" but in this one I'm obviously not gonna get to interrogate her intentions. I'm not even sure what I"m gonna say tomorrow.

One final thought just to ensure there's more confusion. Despite her failure to call me after triggering something codependent in me, it IS perfectly healthy for couples to go to bed together even if its over a phone line. So how do I stop being codependent about needing that while still enjoying it greatly and allowing it to become one of the good things? When you're not literally together on a given night this is clearly a great way to ensure greater intimacy.

Oh my aching insecurities... .

[MammaMia]

Devin6

WHOA!

Stop over analyzing everything your gf says and does. 

Why did you drag this inquisition out for hours?   After you told her her conversations with the other man were hurtful, why didn't you just tell her you love her... .say goodnight and end the conversation?  Obviously, you do not trust her and yes, you appear to be co-dependent.

Your gf may be trying to help a lonely friend and is flattered by the attention.  Do you REALLY believe she would have shared information about him if she was involved with him?  No.

You need to put your past behind you.  She is not your previous gf, and you are on the verge of destroying this relationship as well.  Discuss it with her face to face.  If that does not defray your jealousy and fear... .get some professional help.

[waverider]

You are getting into the early stages of triangulation here. She is playing the role of rescuer to this other person and he the the victim. If you start to object you will become the persecutor. These dynamics are fluid. The roles can then quickly shift if you react. As she will then become the victim and he the rescuer, and you the big bad unreasonable one, especially if your standards appear to change... (from tolerance at her doing this to intolerance).

You need a boundary about this and enact it quickly for the sake of consistency, as this will keep upping until you have had enough.

It is not normal behavior and you may try to logically justify it while inside you feel it is wrong.

Over explaining and justifying is often a trap to fall into instead of keeping it simple with basic clear cut no nonsense boundaries.

For most people who have to deal with a dysregulated pwBPD, blocking one line of complaint with logic will simply cause the drama to spread on a tangent to some other unrelated issue until they find a weak link. Drama is often not about the issue, it is about drama, and can be made about whatever is effective.

[Devin6]

Well just an update, and a bad one.

In the past 2 weeks I've been very very busy, out of town trying to keep up the emotional needs of my partner. There was a 2 day period, the final 2 days actually, where I barely spoke to her because of circumstances and a one time moment of exhaustion where I "neglected" her by not being 100% on the phone with her all the time in my spare time.

Guess what, I finally get back and here's where we are. She has feelings for that dude she was being supportive to and she's confused. For the first week and a half of our time apart it was "I love you so much" and such intense need. Then in a matter of 2 days, or so she says, she realizes she has feelings for him because she realizes that unconsciously she needed the support. She says she feels abandoned by me and confused by her new feelings.

Here's the problem. He's her "amazing friend" and she doesn't want to jeopardize that. He has no idea of her feelings allegedly and she told me that if I were to try to tell him to not talk to her as much that she'd leave me. She insists she still loves me, still wants us, but is confused. Here is where things got sketchy. I can't get her to commit to anything, I mean in terms of what she's thinking. I say I feel crushed, scared, sad, hurt, like I think I've lost her, and she says ":)on't think that". I press her to tell me why I shouldn't, because she hasn't said that wont' happen unequivocally. She doesn't really respond to that.

In the end she said she wants to take a break from us so she can figure her feelings out. I immediately felt scared that what would happen is she'd lay off our emotional intimacy but invest still in what she cultivated with him, that it would lead to a stronger connection with him and a progressively weaker one with me. She again says ":)ont' think that" and has nothing to back up why I shouldn't feel that way. She said she feels wrong being with me while she has these feelings for him. She said herself that she's created a new "routine" with him that supports her and keeps her feeling "okay".

When I was barely able to contact her for the better part of a day she said she went into a place she hadn't been in a long time. Couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, and he was there for her. She says she realizes that she turned him into her support but she talks about it like she has no control. It seems like she's willing to jeopardize our relationship to protect what she has with him.

She sees it as something that happened in a day or two when things were "bad" but I see it as the seeds were laid with over a month of inappropriate emotional intimacy. When she said she wanted a break and I told her how upset it made me feel she said that she can't stand to see me suffer, that she feels it worse than I do. Then suddenly she said "Fine, we're not on a break, everything's fine". I said, "wait, if you're saying you feel hurt and being with me right now hurts you more how can you be fine?" "everything's fine" her reply. Then I say "so you're telling me we're done talking for now" and she goes on in some absurdly exaggerated way about how nice this new bag she bought is. Disturbing, she was clearly emotionally overwhelmed and then shut down the open intimate conversation about feelings.

We've had no meaningful conversation about that since then, but that was last night. Right now I sense that she's on an emotional "break" from me anyway. She's not particularly affectionate, she's responsive to "I love you" but only in reply. However, she still "needs me" to be there with her, for her, all that. She thinks that if I'm around she'll return to feeling about me as she did before and that her feelings for him will diminish naturally. I believe this is wishful thinking, because she's scared of letting that support go because she doesnt' trust me still, or perhaps anymore.

I'm afraid that our relationship could be wounded, perhaps terminally, and she is incapable of facing this honestly or openly. I also fear that she's unwilling to make the most basic adjustment to her behavior over her emotional attachment to this "friend". She said "how can I change feelings?" like she has no control. Like she has to be his friend and take what comes from it.

I understand why this happened, I mean on a psychology level. I also see it as my failure to establish boundaries, but in my defense that need to establish a boundary came about immediately before I was forced into being away for this time. I read on here somewhere "2 weeks to them can feel like 6 weeks to us". I worry that damage is done and it wont' ever come back.

At this point I'm sure the experts will tell me that I'm far too late to try and set a reasonable boundary with this friend, that its shifted to something altogether more challenging. In the end I see myself doing two things. Sitting here, being supportive, accepting the diminished intimacy and waiting to see what comes with her, as she suggests. Or, laying out an honest assessment to her that things can't persist, that if she continues to allow him to be her emotional support rather than me then she will only continue to feel strongly for him, which will hurt me and end our relationship, likely in the long term but frankly I think I should say that if she can't alter her behavior towards him that I need to leave her. I know that in a BPD relationship the non has to accept being an emotional caretaker, but its not right that I should continue this while being emasculated and effectively enabling her to engage in an emotional affair with someone else.

I feel very uncertain right now, I feel like everytime I'm not near her she'll be flocking to him. I feel like I need to not let her define how we "attempt" to recover from this. She has said she thinks we'll be fine, but I don't know, I think thats her wishful thinking. The other concern I have is that she is so overwhelmed by my feelings that she will now hide what she's feeling from me, pretend its fine so I cannot make a clear assessment of whats happening.

Ugh, I believe I may be on a sinking ship here, regardless of my own efforts.

[Devin6]

Another update.

The break is actually on, because the whole day she was basically resenting me. She said I was being clingy, this while saying I wasn't allowed to go anywhere and comfort her while she felt scared about a thunderstorm.

Its extremely confusing. Basically she's telling me that she hates how clingy I am in general. Apparently if I exhibit any expectation of the attention she gives me then I'm clingy, only she can expect that level of attention. I should be free and able to be independent and not dependent on her for happiness. This while contending that I abandoned her by not being available for an approximate 24 hour period.

She's now telling me she HATED (her word) how clingy I was before this last 2 weeks. This was when she was talking about us moving in together, having a life together, having kids, NAMING those prospective kids, etc etc. So, I don't know what her expectation is. I am supposed to be at her beck and call 24/7 to support her immense emotional need, but I am in turn not allowed to have any need for her.

When things were good apparently there were bad too. I suspect maybe she might have allowed me to be clingy because I was the supportive one at the time. This new guy however likely has no romantic need for her, he's purely there for her as a friend, or at least he resists allowing himself to appear romantic, regardless of her new feelings, because he's my friend, he is actually a friend of mine, and stand up in that sense, so I have no fear about him stealing her actively. The point is, maybe he is a better fit for her. Maybe its exactly what she wants, a guy who'll give and give but need nothing in return.

I don't bloody know anymore. She snapped at me the last we spoke telling me she needs space and I need to leave her alone. She was angry when I said "does this mean I don't talk to you at all or what?" and that was responded to with an WOW STOP. This is confusing again because she made many attempts to contact me today, keep me on the line so she could use me for emotional support, ostensibly while her "friend" wasn't available. Also, the terms of the "break" she described yesterday were that I would continue to talk to her and that we'd just not act like a couple.

So right now I'm hurt, I'm upset, but I'm also ready to start packing my bag, perhaps just as a preventative measure. I have no idea how to think. She tells me to not think "negatively" when I say I'm worried the break will be permanent. I suspect she wants me to not feel bad because it makes her feel bad.

I guess its all in her hands. I'm this amazing patient guy. She's f---ed up. I deserve better. She hates how much I need her. She needs time. I wasn't there for her. Don't think negatively. All what she says.

So, I feel almost calm actually. I was falling apart, shutting down for about a day and a half there. My codependence being in full red alert. Now I see this as something I can't control. I may have pushed her the wrong way today. I may have dug my own grave, or it was dug a few days ago. Maybe this thing was terminal to begin with and I was just cleverly deceived until she could find a more suitable supporter. I have no idea, and I suspect I may not receive these answers from her.

She keeps saying this though, "I don't know how you're so understanding". I don't know if this is good or bad. I feel like she almost doesn't want me to understand. like she wants me to be angry, wants me to be mean, wants me to flip out at her. Her previous relationships were involved with pain related S&M, and they made her feel good. Her sense of intimacy was in that moment when the Dom picked up her limp body and dressed her wounds. That was her ultimate sense of intimacy. I wonder if my "understanding" of her condition and trying to support it is just not what she needs. Maybe she's too messed up still to be able to be in a relationship with someone like me who's ready to work with her disorder. Maybe she wants someone who'll hate her and hurt her and treat her like she's nothing, as she said so much of her S&M play was about.

I'm sitting here basically ready for this to be over. She's already got her new support so that she can feel "okay" or whatever it was she said. If she can now exist for I don't know how long now from now on our "break" without my support to keep her sane then I suspect I may be "out". I think she just can't get over how she felt about my apparent abandonment. I laboured for over 3 months to never reach a point where she felt that way and in one fell swoop apparently she did.

In any event this is as much diary as it is post for help. I am going to make my best effort to focus on myself the next few days. I need to be prepared for this to end. I only fear that a disentanglement of us emotionally and romantically could be complicated by her now rather significant proximity to my main social circle.