Trying to understand

[Tincup]

I posted this on the wrong board a few minutes ago when I meant to post here...

My exUBPDgf had two kids, one out of college and one in college.  She appeared to have a good relationship with them on the surface.  Both kids are smart, and get very good grades, successful at work etc.  The only odd things I ever saw (I did not live with her) was that both kids called her on the phone every night or she would get upset.  They appeared to have a very close relationship with her.  She would tell me that sometimes one of them would lay in bed with her at night and talk.  Or they would stroke her hair as she feel asleep etc.  Both kids have girlfriends, and many other friends.  Both appear to be very grounded.

She never appeared to paint either of them black, although she would come down hard on them for certain things (always told from her perspective, I never saw any of the interactions).  For example one got a Mohawk haircut, one did something that my ex thought was disrespectful to his girlfriend, stuff like that.

What am I missing, or what didn't I see?  I would love to sit down with a beer and talk to those two kids.

[Sitara]

I'd like to help but I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to ask.  Are you asking if a pwBPD can raise successful kids?  Have a close relationship?  What is it you feel you're missing?

[Tincup]

actually that is exactly what I am trying to find out.  Can a pwBPD raise good kids?  For how she treated me for all those years I wonder.  She always told me her marriage broke up because she was so into the kids and gave the kids so much attention that it caused her husband to have affairs and they split up. 

Is it possible that she always painted the kids white?  She got a dog right after the youngest went to college.  The dog is treated just like a child as well.  She really won't do anything that causes her to leave the dog alone except go to work. 

[Sitara]

I am a child of a uBPD mom.  I double-majored in college and graduated with honors.  I have a good relationship with my husband.  I frequently get praised for doing well at work from my supervisors.  People outside think I have everything together and am very successful.  However, I have a lot of emotional issues and only my really close friends know that.

Is it possible for a pwBPD to raise successful kids?  Depends on your definition of success.  Can you be raised by a parent with BPD without gaining any scars?  I suppose it might be possible, but probably unlikely.  There's definitely different levels of abuse and it's going to express itself it many different ways.

You described a very close relationship between her and her kids, however it struck me very much like enmeshing.  They call every night because they don't want to deal with the fallout.

 

Or they would stroke her hair as she feel asleep

Who is the parent in this particular scenario?  A child should not be responsible for the parent.  A parent should be tucking the child in for bed, not the other way around.

She never appeared to paint either of them black

I don't know that BPD parents always have a black and white child.  Black and white is very fluid too.  One second you're all good, the next you can be black.

she would come down hard on them for certain things (always told from her perspective, I never saw any of the interactions).  For example one got a Mohawk haircut, one did something that my ex thought was disrespectful to his girlfriend, stuff like that.

This is a way of controlling and preventing individualization.  My mom threatened to tear my bellybutton piercing out with a pair of pliers when she visited me in college for parent's week.  She was fuming about it the entire time she was visiting and I seriously expected her to try and do it.  Doing something against your parent's wishes is met with serious consequences.

If you did sit down and talk to the kids, they'd probably assure you that everything is peachy-keen because they probably don't realize yet that things are not healthy.  They might never.  I didn't realize anything until just recently and I'm 30.  Some people realize earlier, some later, some not at all.  It is so hard to figure out you're in an unhealthy relationship when this is the only thing you've ever known.  The pwBPD convinces you that you're the problem, you're the crazy one, you're the one that's wrong - and because it's your parent, why would you have any reason to believe otherwise?  And then you have people outside who come from healthy normal families telling you that you have to be exaggerating, that it's not that bad, all families have their issues, and that you're not trying enough which totally invalidates that tiny little voice inside your head daring to question that your relationship is not healthy.

These parents are often so good at hiding what happens at home and are so focused on keeping up appearances that they are good parents.  My mom was volunteer of the year for my school.  She went on every field trip.  Put me in tons of extracurricular activites.  Paid for my college.  People would have never believed me if I told them that she controlled who I dated and who I was friends with, what I wore, and screamed at me for hours if I got anything less than an A.  Chances are, however she treated you, her kids got a good dose of it too.  Generally, the coping mechanisms we learn as children prove to be fairly unproductive out in the real world.

I hope that helps answer your question.

[GeekyGirl]

I am a child of a uBPD mom.  I double-majored in college and graduated with honors.  I have a good relationship with my husband.  I frequently get praised for doing well at work from my supervisors.  People outside think I have everything together and am very successful.  However, I have a lot of emotional issues and only my really close friends know that.

I could have written this myself, Sitara. You've made some fantastic points. 

Is it possible that she always painted the kids white?  She got a dog right after the youngest went to college.  The dog is treated just like a child as well.  She really won't do anything that causes her to leave the dog alone except go to work. 

It is possible. It's also possible, as Sitara said, that she cycles between painting the kids (and the dog) black and white.

What happens sometimes is when a child of a BPD parent is successful, he/she doesn't feel worthy and second-guesses himself/herself. That's something I've worked on with my T--with some work, it's possible for a child of a BPD parent to live a happy and healthy life.

You described a very close relationship between her and her kids, however it struck me very much like enmeshing.  They call every night because they don't want to deal with the fallout.

That's very likely the case. Tincup, what would happen if you did reach out to those kids?

[Tincup]

oh lord if I reached out to those kids all HELL would break loose.  She would come down on me harder than anything else I could do.  I said something to a friend of hers that I ran into a couple weeks ago, and when it got back to her she unloaded on me via email.  I didn't even say anything bad, but it really got twisted bad.

When we broke up one time I sent an email to one of them saying basically if you need anything please let me know.  He responded back and said "thanks for making my mom happy for xx years".

Thank you both for giving me some insight.  I do know that if they didn't bring home good grades she would get really upset to. 

[P.F.Change]

actually that is exactly what I am trying to find out.  Can a pwBPD raise good kids?

Of course. I was a fantastic kid. I grew up to be a pretty great adult, too, if I do say so.  And while I did learn a lot of positive things from my mother, I also ended up with a lot of emotional difficulties. Not all troubled kids act out. Many act in, like I did.  Some just end up without the coping skills they need to be independent adults.

My exUBPDgf had two kids, one out of college and one in college.  She appeared to have a good relationship with them on the surface.  Both kids are smart, and get very good grades, successful at work etc.  The only odd things I ever saw (I did not live with her) was that both kids called her on the phone every night or she would get upset.  They appeared to have a very close relationship with her.  She would tell me that sometimes one of them would lay in bed with her at night and talk.  Or they would stroke her hair as she feel asleep etc.  Both kids have girlfriends, and many other friends.  Both appear to be very grounded.

... .

What am I missing, or what didn't I see?  I would love to sit down with a beer and talk to those two kids.

You seem to be aware that something is a little off about the things you mentioned above that I have put in bold. You say "They appeared to have a very close relationship with her." Sometimes people confuse enmeshment with healthy closeness. It sounds like your ex has parentified her children and expects them to soothe her, possibly to the point of what some call "emotional incest." Some of these behaviors are described here:  Workshop - BPD: Problematic mothering/parenting

She always told me her marriage broke up because she was so into the kids and gave the kids so much attention that it caused her husband to have affairs and they split up. 

Does that make sense to you? Her marriage broke up because she is such a fantastic mother? This may very well be the way she sees things. Framing events that way allows her to play Victim/Martyr while blaming the breakup of her marriage on her cheating, jealous ex-husband. She does not have to be responsible.

If you did sit down and talk to the kids, they'd probably assure you that everything is peachy-keen because they probably don't realize yet that things are not healthy.  They might never. 

I agree with this. If they are still falling asleep in Mommy's bed stroking her hair, they probably aren't ready to consider it could be abnormal. They may be so enmeshed and emotionally dependent that they need to idealize their mother as one who could do no wrong.

I can understand wanting to make sense of things, Tincup. I hope this helps you put some pieces together for yourself.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Tincup]

I never really thought otherwise about her marriage breaking up until now.  But you are right, why would a marriage break up because one is a good parent and is really into their kids.  Believe it or not it is hard to explain her relationship with her dog.  For example her dog has a habit of raiding the kitty litter box in the basement of her house.  When he comes upstairs I would chuckle and make a joke.  She would comment (and be serious) that I was making the dog feel bad, then try to "reassure" the dog that everything was ok.

Anytime we were intimate it would be at my house because if we did at her house it would "overwhelm" the dog.

back to her kids.  When they lived at home but were out somewhere and she would hear a siren (police, fire, whatever) she would instantly think something happened to her boys.  Most times she would text them to see if they were ok.

But she really wanted nothing to ever do with my kids.  She didn't like my ex wife, and always said she was afraid of what my kids would say to my ex.

[Sitara]

My mom does the irrational fear thing a lot too. She's a walking worst case scenario. She never would let my sis and me drive in the same car together (unless she was driving) because she was convinced we'd get into an accident and both die. It's her whole fear of abandonment.

I get the dog thing. She's projecting onto the dog.

[GeekyGirl]

I get the dog thing. She's projecting onto the dog.

My mother did too. It blew my mind when I realized that she splits the dog too!

Believe it or not it is hard to explain her relationship with her dog. 

I think you'd be amazed at how many people here understand. From what I gather, people with BPD love the unconditional love they get from animals, and that can often make them "all-good" to the person with BPD. It's safe to them to have relationships with animals.