Tell me I'm on the right track

[fromheeltoheal]

I say it's about living you word with integrity.  If you commit to do something or go somewhere with someone, and then don't, you owe that person an apology because you didn't keep your word, but you are not responsible for how they feel about it when they get upset with you.  People pleasers like me screw that up all the time, take responsibility for other people's feelings, in fact put them in front of our own, and there is a line there, between caring about what people think and feel and taking responsibility for those feelings.

Now, if someone told me that I "make them want to use drugs" my first response would be "don't be a sniveling little btch."  Oops, sorry.  No, there is obviously something under that, that could be cleared up with open, honest communication, starting with "why do you say that" and expecting honest discourse.  In the massive dysfunction that was my borderline relationship that never would have happened mind you, but with other than mental patients, fortunately I could hear a comment like that today and just chock it up to immaturity, and if someone was really coming at me with that crap thinking it would have an impact, it would just make me view them as young and pathetic, and they would end up having less respect from me than they did before.

[Perfidy]

Guys I need to think about this more. I agree with you both about how others can affect us and vice versa. This is a tough idea for me. It's got so much abstract thought involved. I don't know if I'm really even able to grasp the idea fully. I was instructed by a counsellor that I alone am responsible for my thoughts,feelings,and behavior. I accept this partly. I know for a fact that I am accountable. I will have a consequence for my behavior. I prefer good consequence. Isolation... Right. I understand how that is bad. Interaction... Maybe that's the answer I'm looking for. We interact. Maybe that's it.

[fromheeltoheal]

Guys I need to think about this more. I agree with you both about how others can affect us and vice versa. This is a tough idea for me. It's got so much abstract thought involved. I don't know if I'm really even able to grasp the idea fully. I was instructed by a counsellor that I alone am responsible for my thoughts,feelings,and behavior. I accept this partly. I know for a fact that I am accountable. I will have a consequence for my behavior. I prefer good consequence. Isolation... Right. I understand how that is bad. Interaction... Maybe that's the answer I'm looking for. We interact. Maybe that's it.

Like Seeking said, a specific example would be easier.  Existential discussions about where I end and you start are fun, but the theory can seem disconnected.  How 'bout a specific example Perfidy.

[Perfidy]

You made me mad. You make me want to use drugs. You make me want to get drunk. You make me want to kill myself. You make me sick. ... .Umm... .No I don't

Here are some examples. These are a few things I have heard from pwBPD, and the ex wife. Others said "you're pissing me off" or you make me happy. You make me sad. Some times the statemts can be extreme, not always though.

[fromheeltoheal]

You made me mad. You make me want to use drugs. You make me want to get drunk. You make me want to kill myself. You make me sick. ... .Umm... .No I don't

Here are some examples. These are a few things I have heard from pwBPD, and the ex wife. Others said "you're pissing me off" or you make me happy. You make me sad. Some times the statemts can be extreme, not always though.

It's tougher with women we're in an intimate relationship with, since men typically make it their number one project to make his woman happy.  Impossible, as we've discussed, but putting that gleam in her eye is what we live for when we're in love.  To me that mellows out as a relationship matures, when you become close friends who care about each other a great deal, but responsibilities are shared, compromises made, things negotiated.  Then the challenge becomes how to put some romance and spark back in the relationship.

Women are confusing enough for men, the feminine always seems chaotic to the masculine, but throw a serious mental illness in there too and all hell breaks loose.

[goldylamont]

My take on these--True meaning they are somewhat normal things to say or feel towards someone else. False meaning it sounds abnormal and the person saying needs to get a grip on themselves:

You made me mad. -- TRUE, you made her mad

You make me want to use drugs. -- FALSE, she's a drug addict

You make me want to get drunk. -- FALSE, she has alcohol issues

You make me want to kill myself. -- FALSE, she has issue-issues

You make me sick. -- TRUE, in the sense of "you are getting on my damn nerves". People can sometimes get on yo damn nerves, right?

you're pissing me off -- TRUE

you make me happy. -- TRUE**

You make me sad. -- TRUE**



**True meaning that your interactions can very well make someone happy or sad. But ultimately they are responsible for their happiness/sadness and who they share it with. I love sharing and telling the person I love that they make me happy! In this way I hope to reflect the good that I am getting from them and let them know that they are appreciated.

[Perfidy]

Well... I can say this has been interesting. No clear cut answer. I could go into greater detail about specific events. One of the things that I read about mental illness specifically psychotic behavior, was that a psychopath would try and make you kill yourself. I have never had these feelings before I was with the BPD. She would say that certain things... .Not just me... .Would want to make her kill herself. She didn't attempt suicide. She had other self destructive behavior... .Digging at her face for hours... .Meth... .She was dual diagnosed. She was extreme. I observed what I would consider psychosis at times but I'm not an expert. I didn't ever tell her I was suicidal. She would have taken satisfaction in that. If I had actually succeeded an attempt (no attempt, planning though. I'm over it) I'm sure that would have been a major feather in her hat. By her actions at the end I am certain she was trying to drive me to suicide. The interaction with her caused me to experience tremendous emotional pain. She was sadistic, calculating and cruel. This is another reason this topic is relevant to me. I feel like the interaction with her is what caused me to become suicidal. The pain was horrible for months... .I have never been that depressed in my life and I don't think I got there alone. Or did I? I'm alone now and I feel a lot better.

[fromheeltoheal]

Well... I can say this has been interesting. No clear cut answer. I could go into greater detail about specific events. One of the things that I read about mental illness specifically psychotic behavior, was that a psychopath would try and make you kill yourself. I have never had these feelings before I was with the BPD. She would say that certain things... .Not just me... .Would want to make her kill herself. She didn't attempt suicide. She had other self destructive behavior... .Digging at her face for hours... .Meth... .She was dual diagnosed. She was extreme. I observed what I would consider psychosis at times but I'm not an expert. I didn't ever tell her I was suicidal. She would have taken satisfaction in that. If I had actually succeeded an attempt (no attempt, planning though. I'm over it) I'm sure that would have been a major feather in her hat. By her actions at the end I am certain she was trying to drive me to suicide. The interaction with her caused me to experience tremendous emotional pain. She was sadistic, calculating and cruel. This is another reason this topic is relevant to me. I feel like the interaction with her is what caused me to become suicidal. The pain was horrible for months... .I have never been that depressed in my life and I don't think I got there alone. Or did I? I'm alone now and I feel a lot better.

For clarity's sake, borderlines are not technically psychotic, although the cognitive distortion they experience to make sense of their world is in that direction.  Also, drugs like meth can produce temporary, drug-induced psychosis until they wear off.

My borderline used to drive into bad neighborhoods hoping someone would "rape and kill" her to "put her out of her misery".  She wasn't saying that for attention or to manipulate me, she meant it.

"She was sadistic, calculating and cruel."  Borderlines can be, and although they're just trying to meet their needs and cope, it can seem a whole lot more sinister than that.

Relationships among humans are difficult enough, as we all fumble towards ecstasy, and it can be difficult to determine where you stop and she starts in an intimate relationship.  But one with a borderline is impossible, and many a partner has been driven to suicide.  Time to stay out and heal.  Take care of you!

[Perfidy]

I hear that all the way

[seeking balance]

I was instructed by a counsellor that I alone am responsible for my thoughts,feelings,and behavior. I accept this partly. I know for a fact that I am accountable.

Perhaps you should ask your counselor to clarify this with you. What he meant and what you may be interpreting could be quite different.

From how I would take this statement it would be that I am responsible for myself - I am a bit unclear why you are worrying about whether someone else, especially someone you think is BPD has to live by this same reality. Everyone has the freedom to do or believe what they want.  BUT, The only thing we can control is us - that is it. 

[Perfidy]

The counsellor is a female. She is trained and certified in CBT and DBT. She has a bachelors? Not a phd. She and I did discuss this in depth. It started becoming very difficult for me to understand. I guess maybe I'm looking for absolutes in a world where there are none. Over thinking it. Maybe it's not as important as I thought and I wanted a reason to explain my own morbid thoughts or possibly share the reasoning with someone other than my self. She explained it to me as I stated at the beginning of this thread. That no one can control me but me. That I am entirely responsible for my own feelings. That the whole "you make me feel that way" thing is a myth. I know I had help with my feelings. I think it was a response to a stimulus. Hell... .I don't know... That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[goldylamont]

well one thing that has helped me Perfidy is starting to do the things that were really important to me and surrounding me by people that also like those things. for example, music is one of my passions. and once i immersed myself in this and started hanging around a lot of other musicians it was like coming home in a sense. not that you aren't doing this but it just came to mind. i'm feeling perhaps you are feeling misunderstood? and some of this comes from ourselves in the sense that we need to make small corrections as to how we understand the world works, but the other part comes from other people around us and if they are able to understand who and how we are.

i just read this quote and thought of you. sorry if it's off topic but maybe you will like it? usually when i make connections like this i just try to share it so hope you enjoy:



Friends fell away as I individuated on my soul’s

journey. As I shed one self-sense, I no longer

identified with the people attached to it. Old ways of

interacting seemed artificial, scripted, silly. Whereas

before it was fine to hang out and waste time, now

there was no time to lose. Now I had to protect my

sacred purpose from connections that undermined it.

Be prepared for the lonely times on the journey. It

can be very isolating to quest for true-path amid

the trumpets of modern life. Walking through

uncharted territory often means walking alone. This

is particularly true in the transition stages before

we find our consciousness soulpod. It’s like primary

school all over again—who will be my first REAL

friends?

--Jeff Brown

https://www.facebook.com/SOULSHAPING



I really enjoy a lot of the posts by Jeff Brown. I haven't read his books yet but plan on reading Soul Shaping one day but I just started a book called Middlesex so it will have to wait til after that 

[goldylamont]

sonofagun this guy is good!  



It is important to realize that it is possible to hold

the belief in someone’s highest possibilities while

simultaneously accepting that they are not at a stage

where a friendship is appropriate. Because growth-oriented

individuals tend to be empathic, they run

a particular risk of remaining close to people who

can drag them down. If two people cannot meet on

relatively equal footing, there are two options: the

relationship can end, or it can be organized around

the developmental stage of the least conscious

member. Give yourself permission to go where the

growth is. Some of us are meant to jump through

karmic hoops together, some of us aren’t…

--Jeff Brown

[Perfidy]

Yes he seems to have good things to say.

[Surnia]

I think this is indeed interesting here. This is my approach.

If I go back to the feeling good example, I would word it like this: "When I am sitting here in the late afternoon sun with you on my side, I feel so happy." (You make me happy.)

There is a situation and there is an emotion. In the description of the situation, there is another person included. My emotion is what I am doing. Someone else could easily feel different. "When I am sitting here in the late afternoon sun with you on my side, I feel so anxious that this moment will never come back." (You make me anxious.)

There is a stimulus for my emotions, sitting with darling in the afternoon sun. The emotion is mine.

I agree with you, perfidy, we hear a lot this sentences: You make me feel... . or This makes me feel. And I have to admit, perhaps I am not telling it everybody, I am thinking these things too. So my approach is first of all, I try to get this clear for myself. Which means for me: Learning to go in description mode (Stimulus) and awareness of my emotion.

[Perfidy]

Surnia, happy new year and thank you for your reply to this. It really does confuse me. I can see that the semantics is a problem. Using language to describe feelings is a monumental task. Fully understanding this concept has alluded me and the replays here have helped me come to a little better understanding of this idea of another person being able to make me feel one way or the other. You made me feel better... . Syntax error... . Buffering wheel... . Reboot.

[Perfidy]

This much power is scary. ( I give )YOU (the power to) MAKE ME MAD

[Surnia]

I think we can be better with wording emotions with practice. Its possible, we are just not used to it.

This is one of my goals for the next year: Being aware of my emotions.

This much power is scary. ( I give )YOU (the power to) MAKE ME MAD

Yes, and YES!