Do something different

[Want2know]

Best piece of advice I've ever been given since I've opened my eyes to my reality - 'do something different than you have been doing'.

Kind of along the lines of the famous Albert Einstein quote:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I know this topic has been broached before, however, it's somewhat of a new mantra for me, and I felt the need to share it.

The one thing that I keep wanting to do over and over is approach those who are emotionally unavailable with the thought that if I reach out to them, they may tap into their authentic selves and respond in kind.

I hate that I am drawn to those scenarios.

Wanting to save someone - not really.  Just seeing that there are so many people that cannot allow themselves to be vulnerable, either because of shame or the feeling of having to present a certain 'air' (ie. in control). 

It just bothers me, and I want to break down that wall.  Not sure where that comes from.  I think it may stem from 'no one is perfect' and the illusion of that which some aspire to makes me cringe.  It's my own self-acceptance and those who cannot present themselves as a vulnerable being are not accepting themselves for who they are.  Posers, if you will.

So, when I have those urges, I have to remind myself that I can try once, maybe twice, but after that, I shouldn't try again.

Doing something different.  That's where I am right now.  Most of the time it's really good and people are open to being real - thankfully.

[seeking balance]

The one thing that I keep wanting to do over and over is approach those who are emotionally unavailable with the thought that if I reach out to them, they may tap into their authentic selves and respond in kind.

I hate that I am drawn to those scenarios.

Yeah, I am sticking with "fixer-uppers" for property only... .not people 

[Want2know]

  Love it! 

I hear ya, sister! 

It's incredible how initially, some people may seem like they are together, but when you get to know them, the truth unfolds.  I don't think I've been as aware of it all until now, and am grateful to having learned this, through the folks on this site and my own pursuit of understanding human behavior.

[seeking balance]

It's incredible how initially, some people may seem like they are together, but when you get to know them, the truth unfolds. 

Oh yeah, I know what you mean.  For a short time, I felt it was my responsibility to enlighten them that their actions didn't really match their words... .now, I just back slowly away 

[Want2know]

See... .that's what I am starting to do - back slowly away, focusing on looking forward and seeking those who are balanced. 

[DreamGirl]

Different can be so hard though!  

Just seeing that there are so many people that cannot allow themselves to be vulnerable, either because of shame or the feeling of having to present a certain 'air' (ie. in control).  

It just bothers me, and I want to break down that wall.  Not sure where that comes from.  I think it may stem from 'no one is perfect' and the illusion of that which some aspire to makes me cringe.  It's my own self-acceptance and those who cannot present themselves as a vulnerable being are not accepting themselves for who they are.  Posers, if you will.

Just wanted to chime in on this.

I'm not very good at vulnerability. I also wear a pretty decent sized "poser" mask. I'm not as tough as I present myself to be.

I don't know if has to do with my own inability to accept myself as it has to do with where I'm at on the Victim to Survivor to Thriver chart.

I had my boundaries shattered when I was young, so I'm really careful. I allowed "unsafe" others in my little circle and was "wounded" - then I really over compensated. I started thinking the whole world was going to let me down at some point or another. I'm working on that. This is also just part of who I am.

I tend to be private/safe until I'm ready not to be anymore. I hope it's not a character flaw as much as it is my own little work in progress. It does leave one pretty lonely when you cut everyone off at the knees because of some kind of ridiculous expectation you have of your friends. I don't tolerate a lot of nonsense - so there's balance to be found when you're trying to surround yourself with good people. You don't want to set the bar to an unattainable level because like you said, none of us are perfect.  

Do you think this has anything to do with your boundaries when it comes to being vulnerable?

Do you feel connected with others?  

[fromheeltoheal]

Cool topic.  I was very socially isolated and lonely when my borderline ex showed up, which left me more susceptible.  But the good news is, having detached, that I get to start from scratch as far as friends go; my values have diverged from those of my old friends, don't see them much anymore, and I've got acquaintances, but that's it.

One model I've learned about is creating strong boundaries and letting them down slowly with people, see if they do too, and building a relationship slowly.  Solid advice.

Another model, one I've been trying lately, seems like a short cut; express vulnerability right away to see what happens, being aware that oversharing too early can shock people and actually puts distance between people.  So watching that, let fly with who I am at my core, realizing that all meaningful relationships and intimacy only happen with vulnerability.  The short cut aspect is that it becomes pretty clear pretty quickly who the folks are who are qualified to be my friend on that level, and the rest? Pffft.  Life's too short, time to get some real connection going, much of it motivated by BPD pain and an unwillingness to settle anymore.  So far so good... . 

[Cumulus]

Hi WTK, great topic. I agree we need to know ourselves and be really comfortable with who we are before we can honestly allow ourselves to be open to others. By demonstrating that openness, I see that it allows others to be more open in return, feeling they won't be judged by someone living that "perfect" life. The thing is though if I choose to live my life openly and with vulnerability does it matter whether or not others choose to respond to me in like manner? It doesn't mean I give them a few chances and then move on, for me it means that I come to the understanding that my relationship with them will never deepen and become a complete and full connection. The connection varies as to the role that person plays in our life, whether it is friend, work place contact, adult child or lover. 

And just because I need a reason to use the snowman I have to say living life with openness, vulnerability, self introspection, and love for self and others is really cool! 

[babyducks]

It's incredible how initially, some people may seem like they are together, but when you get to know them, the truth unfolds.  I don't think I've been as aware of it all until now, and am grateful to having learned this, through the folks on this site and my own pursuit of understanding human behavior.

Radical acceptance.   I love the concept of radical acceptance.  Its the single best thing I have learned through my journey with my person with BPD.   

Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum.  Myself included.   What I find to be true for me is if I radically accept others, it becomes easier to maintain boundaries.   And relax around people.

and I love the victim/survivor/thriver chart.  somehow I missed seeing that before.   Thanks for the post.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi WTK, great topic. I agree we need to know ourselves and be really comfortable with who we are before we can honestly allow ourselves to be open to others. By demonstrating that openness, I see that it allows others to be more open in return, feeling they won't be judged by someone living that "perfect" life. The thing is though if I choose to live my life openly and with vulnerability does it matter whether or not others choose to respond to me in like manner? It doesn't mean I give them a few chances and then move on, for me it means that I come to the understanding that my relationship with them will never deepen and become a complete and full connection. The connection varies as to the role that person plays in our life, whether it is friend, work place contact, adult child or lover. 

And just because I need a reason to use the snowman I have to say living life with openness, vulnerability, self introspection, and love for self and others is really cool! 

I agree Cumulus, and I also think relationships are not all equal; the deep, complete and full connection you refer to is more valuable than the superficial ones.  A relationship involves two people meeting on common ground, and if I want something more than someone is willing or able to give, or vice versa, I need to make a decision: do I lower my expectations and meet this person on a level we agree on, or do I move on and try deep and full with someone else?  Will I be happy with a lesser relationship or will I be frustrated because I'm not getting what I want and I think we could create?  :)epends on the person.

I've been trying this a lot lately, both with old friends I haven't seen in a while and new ones, letting loose with my vulnerability, which I'm good at, and seeing what happens.  Some people are willing and reciprocate, some are put off, and some are OK with it but won't go there too.  I've found my people pleasing nature can be a benefit because letting down walls, expressing vulnerability, is easier when I have poor boundaries, the clincher and the growth happens when I choose who to do that with and stop doing it if they barge in and don't respect boundaries.  There's a line there, still finding my way, letting the right people in, and that's the difference really; in the past I'd be open with someone, they'd disrespect boundaries, and I'd tolerate it and let them.  Bad move.  And then I'd eventually leave and they'd wonder why, confused, because I never communicated that what they did or said was not OK.  Progress.  Communication is key.  Fortunately the let it all hang out mindset got me royally screwed with my borderline, so now I've got the motivation to be present and pay attention to what's going on, consider myself inherently lovable, and not put up with people who don't see it that way.

Nice snowman!  I'm going to surround one with light bulbs and see if it melts... .

[Want2know]

The thing is though if I choose to live my life openly and with vulnerability does it matter whether or not others choose to respond to me in like manner? It doesn't mean I give them a few chances and then move on, for me it means that I come to the understanding that my relationship with them will never deepen and become a complete and full connection. The connection varies as to the role that person plays in our life, whether it is friend, work place contact, adult child or lover.

This is a better explanation of the next step after you realize the person just cannot allow themselves to be vulnerable.  Accepting the fact that right now it's just not possible.  I become conflicted with this when I see someone who I care for, or who strikes a chord in me, and I want more - not just from them, but for them.  That's when I just need to stop expending so much energy on trying and accept the limitation.  Like babyducks says, radical acceptance.

Another model, one I've been trying lately, seems like a short cut; express vulnerability right away to see what happens, being aware that oversharing too early can shock people and actually puts distance between people.  So watching that, let fly with who I am at my core, realizing that all meaningful relationships and intimacy only happen with vulnerability.  The short cut aspect is that it becomes pretty clear pretty quickly who the folks are who are qualified to be my friend on that level, and the rest?

I find myself doing this sometimes, too.  Some people are ok being vulnerable up front, but then their shame meter kicks in, and they can withdraw. 

Do you think this has anything to do with your boundaries when it comes to being vulnerable?

Do you feel connected with others? 

I do feel connected with others, more so now than I have been in the recent past.  I'm sure that there is some affiliation with boundaries meshed in there that has affected this.  If I value vulnerability, and have created a boundary supporting that value, ie. I will not engage on a deeper level if I do not feel the vulnerability is mutual, then all should be 'well'.  In the past, I don't think I recognized that, and just kept trying and trying with those who just not able.  Kind of along the lines of what fromheeltoheal posted.

And just because I need a reason to use the snowman I have to say living life with openness, vulnerability, self introspection, and love for self and others is really cool! 

  Very cool!

[dontknow2]

Want2know, this is a great point. Doing something different is key. I'd like to add... .even if it is wrong was especially important for me. For years, I  kept going back to 'save' my ex.

Ironically after years of therapy, I now see my dBPDxh as being the more vulnerable one. He is willing to outwardly display what other people don't want to see, reject, or disapprove. After my core trauma, I became a more fearful inverse version of my ex; a smartly designed miss goodie-tooshoes, denying my shadow.

Thankfully, I am now coming into my own; a blend of all of the above. The real me. As I do this and remove my fear of rejection (not shame), it is only now I can be real with others. I suspect more people will naturally come into my life doing the same.

[Cumulus]

Hi w2k,  absolutely, it is an ongoing struggle and need for constant reminder to think radical acceptance. Don't you love that term!

Don't know, your response is touching and beautiful, "more people coming into my life doing the same", a wonderful thought.

[Want2know]

A really thought provoking post, dontknow2 - it made me dig a little more into some concepts.

I now see my dBPDxh as being the more vulnerable one. He is willing to outwardly display what other people don't want to see, reject, or disapprove.

This caught my eye... .I had to think about it in reference to the question 'what is unhealthy vulnerability?', as I understood what you are saying in relation to my ex-NPDbf.  He has those same characteristics - displaying what other don't want to see or talk about, or disapprove.  My thought is that is a false vulnerability, or one that stems from something other than healthy vulnerability.

I took a look on the internet to see what I could find on 'unhealthy vulnerability', and these are a few thoughts that made some sense.

"Unhealthy vulnerability is what happens when people lack personal power and a sense of centeredness.  They are overwhelmed by the suffering of others and by their own." 

and this... .

"Over sharing is not an act of vulnerability, it is a manipulation of it.  Over sharing is a means of self-victimizing.  It is a cry for help you may not even realize that you are making, with the subject matter leading the breadcrumb trail to your deepest shame."

Really interesting concept that I had not considered until you mentioned it - makes me wonder if some of what I consider my own vulnerability is possibly more of 'over sharing'.  Hmmm... .

Thankfully, I am now coming into my own; a blend of all of the above. The real me. As I do this and remove my fear of rejection (not shame), it is only now I can be real with others. I suspect more people will naturally come into my life doing the same.

I agree with Cumulus, this is a good place to be.  Something else that I had to dig a little into was your mention of fear of rejection vs. shame.  My instinct is that there is a connection between the two, with shame being the underlying piece. 

I believe through rejection, some feel shame.  For example, if we are rejected by a parent or a loved one, it can make you feel like you are not worthy as a person - that is shame.  The feeling of unworthiness.

Thanks for the input... .I think the concept of unhealthy vulnerability is one that I might need to explore further - after I have a few more cups of coffee 

[fromheeltoheal]

Nice snowman!  I'm going to surround one with light bulbs and see if it melts... .

It worked! 

[dontknow2]

fromheal, 

Cumulus, Thank you. Just being with all of you and having this conversation is proof. 

want2know,

The concept of unhealthy vulnerability is interesting. It is true my ex was crying out for help (in a mask). Going along with me as the inverse, I can now remember where I offer a personal weakness, almost as a sacrifice, even when uncomfortable just to make the other person at ease. I don't think this is healthy or authentic either but a manipulation. I imagine healthy vulnerability would be me just being me in any given situation, no forcing of any kind; and vulnerabilities are displayed eventually since I am human.

After reading your post, I had to look up the definition of shame. You are right. My 'more' conscious reason for hiding my vulnerability is fear of rejection. It's logical I am unconsciously ashamed of my feelings of unworthiness:'(   ... .hey wait a minute, maybe it's now conscious 

[Want2know]

After reading your post, I had to look up the definition of shame. You are right. My 'more' conscious reason for hiding my vulnerability is fear of rejection. It's logical I am unconsciously ashamed of my feelings of unworthiness:'(   ... .hey wait a minute, maybe it's now conscious 

“If we can share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, shame can't survive.” ~ Brene Brown

That is the key with shame - getting it out there, talking about it.  Once you make it conscious, it's power diminishes.  Making it conscious in the moment when you have the possibility to react to it can be difficult, though.

For example, if your shame, feeling of unworthiness (say, fear of rejection) is lurking in the background when you meet a new guy you like, and you don't recognize that feeling, it may get in the way of building an authentic relationship.  Taking risks, having the courage to speak your mind and share your thoughts/feelings, regardless if they interpret it in a way that makes them not want to be with you, that is being vulnerable. 

If you let your fear of rejection 'manage' what you share, then that can be a hindrance.  I've done that many times.  You think, I am not smart enough to be able to converse with this person, and then don't approach them or connect in a meaningful way.  Or, I'm not pretty enough to approach this person, so I'll just turn and walk the other way.  If you can recognize those voices in the moment that they are telling you those things, and muster up the courage to speak, that's progress. 

[seeking balance]

Brene' Brown might use this whole thread in her next book - her stuff is everywhere

To add a bit deeper than my original response with the direction this has taken, for me - I had to let go of perfection.

Doing something different is key. I'd like to add... .even if it is wrong was especially important for me.

Going back to my FOO - for my mother, I had to be perfect - from handwriting to not spilling milk - perfection = love/acceptance.

Fast forward, I found myself trying to be "perfect" in relationships (work or personal) and expect perfection, rather than make mistakes and it be ok because I am HUMAN - deserving of acceptance and compassion because I am simply Human... .not only if I do everything perfectly.

Doing something different, even possibly "wrong" is ok for me now... .it stings, but I let it go - don't over correct.   I can apologize when I need to and genuinely accept apologies much easier now too.   

[dontknow2]

For example, if your shame, feeling of unworthiness (say, fear of rejection) is lurking in the background when you meet a new guy you like, and you don't recognize that feeling, it may get in the way of building an authentic relationship.  Taking risks, having the courage to speak your mind and share your thoughts/feelings, regardless if they interpret it in a way that makes them not want to be with you, that is being vulnerable.  

Want2know, This is so true and limits all of my relationships even at work, interfering with my life signature. As an example, just the other day I had an interview with a retired top executive. After being surprised by "self-awareness at your level", he spread the word to my leadership and e-mailed me later with links to articles, etc... My initial reaction: uh-oh, I gave the wrong signals like in my past (married older men thinking its something sexual) - sad Dad issue, I know. So, I responded distantly to avoid possible confrontation :'(.

This might be too much for this thread but just realized something else  . In this chain where all links need to be addressed... .

'fear of rejection' ... .'shame of unworthiness' ... .'courage to act' ... .'ability to act',

I have been working on each individually for years just without labels. On a side note oddly, I worked on them in backwards order facilitated by therapists without knowing it. The kicker is I am nearing point of poignant action, yikes! unless there is another chain link?

Seekingbalance, Perfection is far from the point but thought it was for a long time too! Brene Brown, it is  

[livednlearned]

The one thing that I keep wanting to do over and over is approach those who are emotionally unavailable with the thought that if I reach out to them, they may tap into their authentic selves and respond in kind.

Wanting to save someone - not really.  Just seeing that there are so many people that cannot allow themselves to be vulnerable, either because of shame or the feeling of having to present a certain 'air' (ie. in control). 

I'm experiencing this a lot. With co-workers who are unhappy with our boss and supervisor at work, and with my new guy, watching him deal with his ex and teen son. When I'm mindful and catch myself trying to fix them (because my insights are so awesome  ) and stop getting caught up, it's so peaceful. Just listening, having empathy. Maybe a question or two. I have one co-worker, much younger than me, who I've been really centered with, basically listening + questions. I give her practically no advice and she thinks I'm so wise 

[Want2know]

I had to go back to my original post in this thread to remind me of why I started it.   

I think this is the the crux of the issue, as it is something different for me:

"I have to remind myself that I can try once, maybe twice, but after that, I shouldn't try again."

I'm finding this hard to do.  Even after getting to the point of recognizing that my efforts may not be reciprocated, I still feel that I would not be 'me' if I didn't still continue to try.  Something about not giving up on people even if they have their limitations.

Something I read in Daring Greatly (Brene Brown) was about how those who have these limitations, it is most likely based in shame, as I had mentioned earlier, and that we don't fix it by cutting people down to size or remind them of their inadequacies.  I'm referring specifically to narcissists, who tend to be those that I was ranting about, initially.  For example, my ex.

I know that's one of the reasons I stayed with him so long... .I saw his limitations and was trying to help him fix himself by not cutting him down or reminding him of his inadequacies - he did that to himself enough.  Even with all my efforts, nothing seemed to break through.  So, of course after going through detachment and finally coming to some peace over our relationship, I am finding that I still want to help those who are in that state of being.  Argh!

In some ways, I don't feel I would be an authentic person if I completely gave up on people like this, so I think it's just my approach that needs to be different.  I had said try once, try twice and then let it go, but as cumulus mentioned, I think it's more about redefining the depth of the connection.

Just listening, having empathy. Maybe a question or two. I have one co-worker, much younger than me, who I've been really centered with, basically listening + questions. I give her practically no advice and she thinks I'm so wise 

I think this is a good approach.  It doesn't cut you off from them, but it also doesn't get you as involved where you are bouncing your head against a wall.

This might be too much for this thread but just realized something else  . In this chain where all links need to be addressed... .

'fear of rejection' ... .'shame of unworthiness' ... .'courage to act' ... .'ability to act',

I have been working on each individually for years just without labels. On a side note oddly, I worked on them in backwards order facilitated by therapists without knowing it. The kicker is I am nearing point of poignant action, yikes! unless there is another chain link?

Another link in the chain.  My friend used to use the term 'peeling back the onion'.  There is always another layer - it's a process, and my hope is that I finally get to a place where I reach my core being, my authentic self, or the onion center. 

Brene' Brown might use this whole thread in her next book - her stuff is everywhere

  I would love to meet her and have a good chat about all this.  I have to thank you for turning me onto her stuff.  Life changing, and so much more to plow through, but at least it gives me a good basis to work from.

[DreamGirl]

Brene Brown is a rock star.

I think that there is always something deeper to be found within us when someone/something can get us all riled up.  It's those moments that we probably learn the most about ourselves.

Other people's personality styles or their ability to connect with me aren't really something that get's me - but I sure can get all frustrated with another person's bad choices though.  

So it's good to ask myself "why is HIS choice bothering ME so much".

I think this is a pretty big piece to your puzzle, Want2Know:

Really interesting concept that I had not considered until you mentioned it - makes me wonder if some of what I consider my own vulnerability is possibly more of 'over sharing'.  Hmmm... .

In this grand healing process, there's a moment where you want to shout from the mountain tops about your story, your life, your moments that made you who you are. When I first was able to shed the shame of my own sexual abuse (and the PTSD that followed) I think I could have seriously told the store clerk at one point. "This is why I am the way I am!" There was an empowerment and there was an explanation. My whole life was a set of normal reactions, manifestations to what had happened to me.   

It was part of the process. It's part of that Victim/Survivor/Thriver chart.

It's part of fundamentally knowing what the difference between shame and privacy are.

This really is more about you, Want2Know, then it ever will be about the narcissists in your life. It's about your own healthy boundaries. It's about your own self awareness and emotional intelligence.

Vulnerability is what can create true intimacy in relationships. For some, it just takes a lot of time to feel safe in vulnerability. I personally think it should take a lot of time.      

[seeking balance]

Vulnerability is what can create true intimacy in relationships. For some, it just takes a lot of time to feel safe in vulnerability. I personally think it should take a lot of time.      

My T used to say the greatest strength is the ability to be vulnerable.

[livednlearned]

It's part of fundamentally knowing what the difference between shame and privacy are.

Ooo. That's good.

[Want2know]

It's part of fundamentally knowing what the difference between shame and privacy are.

Ooo. That's good.

Sounds good, but can you elaborate?  Do you mean that keeping somethings private is natural and that the shameful aspects shouldn't be kept private?  Not quite sure what the full extension of this thought is.  DG? 

[DreamGirl]

Vulnerability can be so uncomfortable. It's also how Brene Brown says we are able to connect to others in the most intimate ways.

It's standing naked (proverbially of course) and another person having the ability to love you in all the glory of who you are. It's how we love unconditionally. It's also how we can be hurt the most and why so many of us can be so afraid of it.

It's precious, the whole idea of standing naked, inviting someone else into the nooks and crannies of who we are.

That's the difference for me. Being open does not include having to have an open invitation. Privacy involves valuing myself and shame usually included not valuing myself.

i.e. I used to never tell people that my sons had different fathers. My oldest son's father wasn't in the picture anymore and it was easier to just say "their father" and not get into the logistics. In this day and age, you wouldn't think so, but there is still a lot of judgment (both internally and externally) that goes on around having a child out of wedlock, especially as a teenaged mom and even moreso when you have another child two years later only to get a divorce from that son's father. If you peel back the layers of the onion... .

I wasn't being private. I also wasn't avoiding vulnerability. I was ashamed.    

Now that I've been to about 172 therapy sessions and more importantly, not wanting my son to feel ashamed about who he is either, I'm OK with giving the information when it makes sense to me. Or when it makes sense to my son. The best is when both of my sons' fathers show up to a track meet and the whole world can see that his life is truly blessed. It's not anything to be ashamed of. It just is.  

There within lies the difference, privacy is about being OK with who I am... .and sharing myself with those who are "safe" . It's knowing when others can be privy to that precious part of my life. Who know me well enough to understand and accept that part of me.  

When we value ourselves - we aren't weary or afraid, we're simply knowledgeable and wise.

It's the same for me, if I meet someone who is struggling in personal boundaries, I don't think "being vulnerable" to them is wise. Not because I'm afraid - but why would I want to welcome someone into my little circle of me - when that person struggles in that sense?  

So it's really about a capability of yes, acceptance, but also of gaining skills in who we allow in our life. It's like you said, it's doing something different that what we've always done. It's being vulnerable in areas that you may have not been in the past but having the knowledge and skills to know that it's the right thing to do.

It's rising up. It's not playing games. It's not putting on a façade. It's being brave enough to be honest... .

To those who are worthy of getting to know you for you.

[Want2know]

It's the same for me, if I meet someone who is struggling in personal boundaries, I don't think "being vulnerable" to them is wise. Not because I'm afraid - but why would I want to welcome someone into my little circle of me - when that person struggles in that sense?  

Love this... .I think that's what I've been looking to reconcile.

Thanks, DG!