Wants "Equal" Footing in Finances

[Edelweiss]

Just want a reality check here. This comes up every 6 to 9 months, it seems. BPDw wants to know the account numbers and PINs to all of the accounts. She says she just wants to be on equal ground with me and know what's going on with the finances. I have an online bank consolidating account viewer set up that she can view all of the accounts whenever she wants--did that a year or so ago to alleviate this same complaint and belay her fears that I had a secret account and a mistress or other wife somewhere. At that time we went through all the accounts so she could see that all the money from my checks were accounted for in those accounts. She reviewed expenses and saw that I didn't buy anything that she didn't know about, etc. That seemed to satisfy her for a while.

Well, it has come up once or twice since then, but tonight it did so with a vengeance. She wants the account numbers and PINs directly to all the accounts. I, for several reasons--that I am sure I don't need to go into in detail with you guys--just can't feel like that would be a good idea. She is on the accounts, either as a joint account holder or as the beneficiary. She can see the activity whenever she wants. She has a couple accounts in her name that she does know that PINs to and which she uses for her financial transactions.

So, tonight she got herself so worked up about it and could tell I didn't want to give her everything (still reminded her that she could see anything/everything at any time in the online consolidating account viewer). She resorted to very drastic/dramatic measures meant to manipulate the situation (though I'm sure she doesn't see it as manipulation--you all know the drill). I won't detail that part here because I'd like this to be more about the request/demand she is making and not about the actions she took and words she said to try to convince me to comply.

So, what say you all? Is her request reasonable, even if it would likely mean the end of any sort of financial stability? She won't go back to counseling individually or together (where we could discuss hers and my feelings about it).

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[Edelweiss]

Okay. I know you may not feel like you can give me an answer to my particular situation. That's okay. I'm not really looking for that. I will have to make my decision no matter what.

How about just letting me know what you do with your BPD spouse? How do the finances work? Does he/she have 100% access to all accounts you have at all times? Does that work for you?

Or, is it like my setup, where you have some accounts you manage, and he/she manages others, but you are both on the account as co-owners or as beneficiaries? Both can see all account activity.

[GaGrl]

My DH was married to his BPD/NPD for 33 years. During the 19 years they actually lived together, he was judicious in which accounts were joint. Their situation was a bit different - she was  Thai bride during the Viet Nam War, and she had the equivalent of a U.S. fourth grade education. That aside, her cultural value was to save money... .cash... .for herself. DH has no idea how much cash she stashed over the years. She would have liked the money to be "what's his is mine, what's mine is mine and what's ours is mine." All mortgages and property stayed in his name, and she had minimal screenwriting ability even when he was deployed. Just very little trust there.

[an0ught]

Sounds like there is an extinction burst ongoing. This may be less about the issue than about her way of dealing with boundaries.

Year ends are hard. Ends, that could be end of life. Or even the universe as we know it. Depending on someone else, who is certainly mortal in a world without universe may be a bad idea so having the PINs is vital... .   

Offering an audit again (yawn) is an option. Giving up boundaries that protect vital interests to someone who seems to be driven by stuff you don't understand may be not so wise. Giving in to bullying is setting you only up for repeats.

[GaGrl]

Sounds like there is an extinction burst ongoing. This may be less about the issue than about her way of dealing with boundaries.

I agree.  She may have fixated on the money as a concentration of all she deems "wrong."

[Seneca]

opposite problem, here. My uBPDh has all the control of our finances. I don't have a clue what goes on, and not one thing of real importance has my name on it - credit cards, investments, cars, homes, his business stuff etc. I basically don't exist. I have to live with this because it is his control issue, just as it is for your wife. She wants control of something. I do not know her - she may go on a rampage and buy an expensive painting and a whole new wardrobe, or she may just be testing you to see how much you'll give. But you know in that case, that there is no satisfaction, and she will always want more.

As a woman who stays at home and cares for the children, I can tell you that it may feel like what is the husband's is his, and he is just doing me a favor letting me live here.    What I suggest, if you trust your wife with access theoretically, is that you add her name to things when she is NOT asking for it. ie. Let it go for now - put your foot down, divert etc and in a few months let her know that you were thinking about it and decided to add her to XYZ. Maybe it's not all of them, maybe it's just a couple of things. Just a thought, but I do believe that normal couples should be on equal footing and have equal access.

[Grey Kitty]

I know many pwBPD can be incredibly impulsive/irresponsible with money/debt, and have made a huge financial mess. Protecting yourself from that is a VERY good idea.

I don't know if yours has a history like that or gives you reason to fear it--my W never was difficult around money, and we've only had joint accounts for decades.

What is your experience around this?

Also, do the two of you have different levels of income?

[Edelweiss]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I haven't been on here in a while. :-)

She has had a history of making a mess of our finances--sometimes directly, when she had more full access, and sometimes indirectly, when I caved on boundaries for purchases in an attempt to show good faith and trust in her judgement of our (her) needs, etc. It got bad enough that I really had to tighten things up because I was NOT going to experience a bankruptcy. I knew I had to get things paid off and get us back on track. It took a few years, which was extremely difficult for her, but I did it. We were debt free except mortgage.

Still, the financial strain is difficult for her. I make good money, but she does not work at all. So, with some kids in the mix, what I make isn't enough to do all we would ideally want. I hardly put any money away for retirement right now. If she even worked a part-time job she would probably have all the extra money she would need--especially with reduced downtime giving less time to "think" of things she/we need(s). But sometimes the thought of working scares her. Other times, I am pretty sure she doesn't want to work because in the event of a divorce, she wants to maximize her alimony (amount and length of time receiving it).

So, yeah. When this has come up in the past, I have felt that the compromise of allowing her to audit the finances at any time she wants should cover her fear that I have an extra wife or something. She doesn't pay the bills (or have desire to--I've asked her when it comes up). The only thing having access to the accounts would do is create the opportunity for her to spend it, taking it out from under the bills. I believe I give her ample money for what she needs to purchase for the family and some extra for herself--though the ratios of those two often are tipped largely in favor of her own needs, which leaves me buying more of the groceries and other supplies needed than my budget was made for. So, that has lead us back into a slow slip into debt again. There's only so much money. I can't magically make more.

Honestly, I wish we were a "normal" couple. I always planned to have open access to all accounts with my wife. That's how we started out. She wants to feel trusted, and I can understand that. I want to trust her. And I suppose technically I do trust "her"--the real her that is underneath what the BPD does to her thinking and actions. That's what I do not and cannot trust fully. It has done some really wild and crazy things in finances, relationships, our marriage fidelity, etc. (all the usual BPD stuff that you all know--we've pretty much had it all).

Thanks for those of you who support my actions. Those who voiced some support of providing her more access, I appreciate your sentiments, as well. I understand them, too. My purpose in posting was to make sure I wasn't being unduly controlling. I certainly do not want to be that way--and I do not feel that is the reason for my reluctance. I feel I must, even though I wish I didn't have to.

[sadinsweden]

My situation is quite different, but I too am dealing with issues of money. While my uBPDso pays the bills like clockwork, there are other issues at stake. (See my post on this board called "money". It's a very important decision. Is there some way that perhaps you can provide her with partial responsibility without endangering your financial standings?

[hergestridge]

Nine years ago I took the decision to have as little common ground financially as possible with my BPDw in order to save the relationship. When she was dysregulating (had no idea what to call it back then) one of the first thing started ___g about was money. I am not interested in a life where someone is accusing me of embezzlement every second month. If I hadn't set a boundary early on I could very well have ended up where Edelweiss did.

I take care of the shared bills and ask her for half the money. We also have an account for food and things for our daughter. We put in a certain amount every month. Apart from that I don't care what she does with her money.

She alters between not caring about money for a couple of months and then all of a sudden panicking and going "Where did all the money go?". I've tried to talk to her about that for 15 years and it hasn't changed, and I don't think it will.

[waverider]

A lot of this is often driven by a fear of being controlled, whether real or perceived. The level of control you exert will not have much impact as it is not based on reality.

Exert whatever level of control you deem necessary to avoid unnecessary hardship. Only you can budget for that. Do not let it slip to the point it creates resentment within you. Fairness has nothing to do with it if both parties can't agree on what is fair.

Today she may want total access, next month she may be totally uninterested in finances as her focus has shifted to something else. Your decisions must not be reactive based on todays impulses.

[Edelweiss]

Thanks again for all the advice. It certainly confirms the way I have been handling it for some years now. The acting out regarding it just got loud enough and tied to enough semi-sane reasons (i.e. if we were a typical couple, etc.) that I just needed a reality check from those of you who know.

[karma_gal]

Until recently my H had complete access to every penny we had.  It was a disaster.  He was a swiping fool with his debit card with absolutely no regard for whether there was money in the account -- there always was, thank God -- or whether bills needed to be paid.  He just swiped, swiped, swiped, and I was supposed to figure out how to make the bills work.  It drove me INSANE!  He literally wasted an average of a thousand dollars a month just swiping away... . on absolutely nothing but junk -- soda, candy bars, lunch out; in other words, nothing tangible to show for it.

I think it has to do with control as was mentioned before.  I will NOT tell him how to spend his money; he has a job.  Those bills, they're something I'm supposed to worry about, his money should be his to spend as he sees fit.  Um, yeah. 

Recently I had to separate our finances because I was literally living in panic attack mode all the time.  I can spend money with the best of them sometimes, but I absolutely need to have a cushion in the bank of a few grand at least that never gets touched to feel secure.  He grew up dirt poor, I grew up upper middle class, and we just don't see money the same way, and apparently never will.  For every dime I would try to save, he would spend three.  It was a losing battle. 

You're in a tough spot.  In a normal relationship, husbands and wives would share access to all accounts and everyone would get along.  But being that she's BPD it creates a whole new set of issues that can literally bankrupt a person before they know it.  Ditto Waverider's advice; it's always exactly right! 

[hergestridge]

Think about it. "Equal ground"? You should be able to call her bluff on this on. What's the equality of her becoming more interested in your economy every 6 or 9 month and then taking a step back once the worry is gone? You do the work and she's checking up on you? Where is the equality in that?

[Grey Kitty]

You DO have the power to control your joint finances--you decide where your paycheck goes, and you can decide how much access to give your wife to that.

So her feelings have some basis.

Your story is that you are fair and responsible about it.

Her story has a different version of "fair."

I'd say stick to your own truth, and be as generous as you can afford to be, and not start feeling panic, worries, or just plain resentful.

You might look into the S.E.T. communication technique around financial issues. (It is in the lessons)

[ugghh]

A couple of thoughts about your question

1) No, her request is not reasonable, given the reality of the BPD.  Trying to alleviate her fear is like shoveling sand into a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

2) Early on when I was married I asked uBPDw to please help me manage the budget by jotting a brief detail down on checks, especially when she went to stores like a Walmart where the money might be spent on clothes, food, diapers etc.  I tried to share how we were doing in meeting our budget, even tried doing charts for her.  She dismissed it all as silly and unnecessary until she became consumed by some the same emotions your wife is going through.  I concur with the comments who have advocated deciding what you feel comfortable providing on  regular basis and sticking to it.

3) Most pwBPD have extremely hard times dealing with boundaries as we know, even the ones set by the bank when they say you are out of money!

Sadly for me the only way I found to get my wife to stick to a budget was finally deciding to divorce after many 25 years.  I had just completed my best earning year ever, only to realize we literally had nothing left to show for it, while she kept merrily spending away.  For what it's worth, I would highly suggest you start easing your wife back into the workforce or make sure you understand the implications of her not working on alimony as it pertains to wherever you live.

Remember boundaries help keep you sane.

[empathic]

Year ends are hard. Ends, that could be end of life. Or even the universe as we know it. Depending on someone else, who is certainly mortal in a world without universe may be a bad idea so having the PINs is vital... .    

Extremely interesting observation. I've never thought about it that way, but it explains a lot about the drama I've experienced as Christmas/New years's approaches. Perhaps it could also be applied to a smaller scale. A day ends - that's where the anxiety and conflict is usually found within my home.

[thicker skin]

I'm in the same boat as Seneca, in that all assets are in my partners name and it is an issue for me, not because I wanted to leave him and clean him out, but because I feel our relationship lacks equality and foundations.

Money issues are seldom about money. They usually relate to a power struggle. My partner has uttered the words "Money is power" before and it made him look cheap in my eyes.

I personally was always very responsible with money. I was also responsible for clothing the children, paying for school trips, birthdays, Christmas and meeting my own personal requirements, which I did on a shoestring called child benefit. I had holes in my shoes whilst he had new consoles and games. I'd make do and mend whilst he spoilt himself. I was not permitted to take an evening job. I was eventually allowed to work for him, in the business we built, which gave me more funds to provide for my familial needs, but this is something I'm told I should be grateful for. He did buy me a second hand car when we moved to the middle of nowhere, this , he said, was payment for 12 years of service and we were quits. I felt like an employee rather than a partner.

I wanted to pay half the bills, half the mortgage and share the costs of our children. I was deemed unreasonable. Women pay for the children, men for the house. If I wanted a more even relationship, I obviously planned to leave him, so was told to leave. He thinks I'm narcissistic and am angry because I'm not getting my needs met. I think my needs are normal.

Perhaps, instead of fighting each other on this one, it may be a good idea to get to the root of the problem, remembering that money is seldom the real issue.