Is this wrong... ?

[amja77]

Have you ever gotten to the point where you start to want them to hurt?

I'm asking this because I think I've created a defense mechanism in order to protect myself from feeling like "going crazy" when dealing with my BPDbf.

I don't trust him. At all. I can't put my finger on it, but I have a feeling he's either cheating on me or getting involved in shady situations. He constantly plays mind games with me... .and whenever this happens, I feel so overwhelmed and anxiety-ridden... .while he's sitting across from me, calmly, with a smirk on his face as if he prides himself in my uncertainty and misery.

I digress, but I've actually signed up for a dating website and have been talking to a few close male friends... .acting like I'm single, in a way. I have not met with anyone, however, I feel by doing this, I'm protecting myself, in a way. I have never condoned cheating. But, I feel like if I can't trust him (he's cheated on me in the past and I've looked at some FB messages that were very inappropriate) , why can't I make myself feel better?

This just sounds horrible, and I probably am acting like him, but have you ever felt like doing something like that? Just because that hurt is so overwhelming, you just want to hurt them in return?

Please post.

[Grissum69]

Yes I have felt this way before as I did a few days ago...    :'( last year this time I wanted the earth to swallow her up and she vanish like she was never here.   I was wishing the worst for my exBPDgf not too long ago but realized it's part of the grieving process.  So now she is playing mind games with me again... .  I just don't understand it at all.   If you don't trust him then why are still with him?  obsessing over what and if is going to destroy you in the end and isn't worth it.

[amja77]

I keep asking myself that same question: if I don't trust him, why am I still with him? I seem to never get a straight answer from myself.

I crave validation from other men because he's devalued me so much that I sometimes believe I deserve his behavior... .and that self-loathing drives me to stay with him, yet still seek out other men... .because I still can't let him go.

It's a sick and twisted cycle.

[waverider]

It is a symptom of a damaged relationship filled with a cycle of resentment. Until you turn the relationship into a "choice' rather than just default mode, then you will not be able to give it your full attention.

It is a form of passive aggression, which is always unsatisfying and usually destructive in the long run.

It is a normal human reaction to bad situations, which is why a pwBPD would do this, but as a non we should have the ability to not just follow this impulsive need. Maybe use this as an example to illustrate to you this is a how pwBPD reacts to most things by following impulsive wants, rather than what is right. This is why their life is always empty and a mess.

Don't go down the same path. It becomes addictive and you will try to make excuses for it until your whole perspective is skewed.

I keep asking myself that same question: if I don't trust him, why am I still with him? I seem to never get a straight answer from myself.

Maybe because you don't believe in yourself and do not really know what you want or deserve out of life. You have to define your own values first before you can go about living by them.

[karma_gal]

It is a symptom of a damaged relationship filled with a cycle of resentment. Until you turn the relationship into a "choice' rather than just default mode, then you will not be able to give it your full attention.

It is a form of passive aggression, which is always unsatisfying and usually destructive in the long run.

It is a normal human reaction to bad situations, which is why a pwBPD would do this, but as a non we should have the ability to not just follow this impulsive need. Maybe use this as an example to illustrate to you this is a how pwBPD reacts to most things by following impulsive wants, rather than what is right. This is why their life is always empty and a mess.

Don't go down the same path. It becomes addictive and you will try to make excuses for it until your whole perspective is skewed.

I keep asking myself that same question: if I don't trust him, why am I still with him? I seem to never get a straight answer from myself.

Maybe because you don't believe in yourself and do not really know what you want or deserve out of life. You have to define your own values first before you can go about living by them.

To the OP, YES, I feel like this often, and I'm glad you posted this.  I had wanted to but hesitated because it just sounds horrible and I couldn't get to a place where I felt comfortable putting it out there.  Like you, I have zero trust in my H, and would put absolutely nothing past him at this point.  But the one thing that struck me about your post was the part where he will sit there with a smirk on his face, as though he is enjoying watching your misery.  This is the one thing that drives me absolutely insane when we are having a conversation.  I can't explain it, but it's this smarta$$ smirk, as though he knows something that I don't know, and he's enjoying watching me squirm.  Every time he gets that look on his face, I want to throw things at him or kick him in the face - just horribly mean things.  And yes, I want him to hurt every bit as much as he has hurt me... .but I don't think he's capable of hurting like that.  I said in other thread, this relationship is turning me into someone I don't know and don't like very well, so I totally get where you're coming from. 

When you say you feel like you're protecting yourself by talking to male friends and using the dating site, what do you mean, exactly?  I'm just curious because I've noticed that when men pay attention to me now, I pay attention back -- something I never would've done in the past.  For me, it's nice to feel desired, to have a conversation with someone without the lying and raging, to feel like a woman rather than an object, but I never thought of it in the sense of protecting myself so I'm curious what that looks like for you. 

Waverider, with that one sentence, you articulated what I've been trying to for quite a while.  That is exactly what's going on in my case.  He set me up to be his surrogate mother, I bit and played the role, and he resents me for it every day.  I resent him for being so ill-equipped to deal with life, the craziness he puts us through, and for requiring me to always be the grown-up because he can't function as anything but a child, and I'm so incredibly resentful over that.  It is a cycle, and one I need to learn to break... .which may only be possible by leaving. 

[maxsterling]

I can say there have been times when I have thought that I wish she would actually attempt suicide or relapse rather than just talk about it, so that way she can get the serious help while I extract myself. 

And for as much as she talks about her life being worthless and meaningless, there have been times that I truly wonder if death would be the only way she could have peace. 

It sounds so wrong and I feel so wrong for thinking it.  But talking to many family members of addicts, it seems like many have a small voice that would be okay if their loved one died of an overdose, just so to finally have peace. 

And I confess, cheating has crossed my mind.  But not to get back at her or hurt her, but as a means to make her leave me.  I've even considered other things, like drinking more, growing a beard, wearing women's underwear, or start smoking.  Seriously.  Just so that she will quit idolizing me and give me space.

I know it is unhealthy.  I know that my thoughts are unhealthy and unproductive and I should just learn to create more space for myself without resorting to tricks.  But when I try, it's either rage or threatening suicide, and it's just so hard to stick with the boundary.

[karma_gal]

I can say there have been times when I have thought that I wish she would actually attempt suicide or relapse rather than just talk about it, so that way she can get the serious help while I extract myself. 

And for as much as she talks about her life being worthless and meaningless, there have been times that I truly wonder if death would be the only way she could have peace. 

It sounds so wrong and I feel so wrong for thinking it.  But talking to many family members of addicts, it seems like many have a small voice that would be okay if their loved one died of an overdose, just so to finally have peace. 

And I confess, cheating has crossed my mind.  But not to get back at her or hurt her, but as a means to make her leave me.  I've even considered other things, like drinking more, growing a beard, wearing women's underwear, or start smoking.  Seriously.  Just so that she will quit idolizing me and give me space.

I know it is unhealthy.  I know that my thoughts are unhealthy and unproductive and I should just learn to create more space for myself without resorting to tricks.  But when I try, it's either rage or threatening suicide, and it's just so hard to stick with the boundary.

WOW I have thought the same thing so many times.  He has always made comments like he wouldn't live to see 45, that his life means nothing, nobody understands him, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.  It's like he is fascinated with his own death, and so that has often led me to think that that is the only way he will find peace... .although I'm convinced he would still find a way to complain and be miserable about being dead.  I have just never encountered such pervasive negativity in all my life, and, like you, I have thought some really horrible things to just make it end. 

I love that you brought up the fact, too, that even though you know it's unhealthy and unproductive and should be as easy as learning to create some space, it's really not.  I have found that any time I time to create space for myself so that I can regroup, he rages more.  Any time I say that I'm going to do something -- meet someone for a drink, stop at the bookstore, whatever -- he rages and pulls that, "If you're going to do X, then so am I, except I'll make sure I have more fun than you will."  Or he lets me go and then calls every two minutes the entire time I'm gone.  Space is just not something that we see a lot of in these relationships, and I think it's one of the reasons my thoughts and so unhealthy at this point.  I just never seem to be able to get away from the insanity long enough to think.  I'm just immersed in it all day, every day, and that leads to more unhealthy and unproductive thoughts. 

I have often said I will never get out of this relationship alive.  He does everything he can to make it difficult for me to have any life outside of this relationship, and he times I have broken free, he's followed me, used third parties to find out what I'm doing, et cetera. 

[maxsterling]

Karma.   I hear you there.  It's funny, if she would just give me an evening a week, or quit calling so much while I am at work, or a weekend by myself with my brother, I could recharge, and I would feel the relationship is functional.  But she needs me for EVERYTHING.  I just wish she could find one single thing that she enjoys that does not involve me, that she never complains about, and that always makes her happy.  I have dozens of things like that.  She has NONE.  Or just one friend outside of me, ONE.  Well, one that lives in town, at least.    Just one friend to hang out with, vent to, spend the day with, etc.  She won't do anything without me unless I have plans to do something else.  She won't do anything with anyone else on the weekends, because she expects me to be home to entertain her.  And when I say I need to fix the car or whatever, only then will she find something else to do.

[waverider]

Karma.   I hear you there.  It's funny, if she would just give me an evening a week, or quit calling so much while I am at work, or a weekend by myself with my brother, I could recharge, and I would feel the relationship is functional.  But she needs me for EVERYTHING.  I just wish she could find one single thing that she enjoys that does not involve me, that she never complains about, and that always makes her happy.  I have dozens of things like that.  She has NONE.  Or just one friend outside of me, ONE.  Well, one that lives in town, at least.    Just one friend to hang out with, vent to, spend the day with, etc.  She won't do anything without me unless I have plans to do something else.  She won't do anything with anyone else on the weekends, because she expects me to be home to entertain her.  And when I say I need to fix the car or whatever, only then will she find something else to do.

Extreme neediness can breed a sense of entitlement to ownership, if you continuously attempt to fill that neediness. Neediness is a personality trait it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. That is just a symptom. Addressing symptoms never fixes the cause.

She may not choose to do anything without you, so you must choose to do things without her. You do have a say in your life. Otherwise things will stay exactly the same.

Neediness is a big issue in our RS, so I compromise. I let some by and block others and pay myself back by awarding myself large non negotiable chunks of "me" time. These were hard fought for make no mistake, including self harm. We seem to have found a reasonable medium.

[Pearl55]

Maxsterling

Please do not think about cheating NOT because of your wife, because of yourself and a woman if you will get involve with. Cheating will NOT make her leave and she will threaten more about suiciding and will make your life hell and she will attach to you more.

First you've got to ask a psychologist why you are still in this relationship and what you want from your life? Because there is a possibility if you won't access to your unconscious first you might involve with another borderline and make it more messy.

If you get involve with a nice loving woman you might break her heart by keep going back to your wife and you won't be able to make decision.

Your wife's feelings are very different to yours. Is very unlikely without help of a highly experienced psychologist or psychiatrist you will be able to make a decision. Bpd is a very complex and confusing disorder to understand.

[lena7]

Wow, I can take a bit of what each one of you has said in this thread and identify with it. I had the same thoughts countless times. I have so much resentment towards my hBPD, that even though I care for him, I think I'm growing bitter by the day.

I'd say out thoughts might be normal for what we're going through. We're subjected to so much abuse and grief on a daily basis, and we can't fight back... .so we get frustrated and part of it is having these thoughts.

[maxsterling]

Sorry to hijack the thread

Yes, I know the neediness is something I need to solve.  I am hoping to address that soon in couples counseling, to set a boundary and express that if I don't get some "me" time, I am going to be unhappy and unhealthy, and the relationship won't last.  I've fought for a little more "me" time over recent weeks.  Right now it is me staying up for an hour and a half after she goes to bed at 9pm.  And she seems okay with that.  She knows she is too needy.  And I think she knows that has ruined previous relationships. So, I think there is a potential to reach an understanding here, but I want to wait to try and establish those boundaries in a setting where she feels more stable and is less likely to push back with anger or rage. 

Pearl - regarding the cheating - I would never do it for the reason you mentioned.  It's not fair to anyone involved, and would make the problem much worse.  I was simply stating that the thought has crossed my mind, and I feel bad that I even had that thought when I know how much damage that would cause. 

[amja77]

Karma_Girl,

What I meant by that being a defense mechanism was that it, in a way, protects my ego or self-worth (?) He just makes me feel so unworthy. I think to myself, if a man like this can't treat me with respect, who will? So it's like by gaining validation from other men, even just verbally, I feel like I am still desirable and worthy of respect and love.

And I do understand he is ill and I shouldn't take it personally, it's all projection stemming from his own feelings of low self-worth, but I'm only human and when I'm being treated in such a way for a long period of time, I start to believe that maybe there is something wrong with me... .

Waverider, you're a God-send. Your posts and words of wisdom really do help me put things into perspective. It is passive-aggressive. It is impulsive... .all symptoms of BPD. And it's sad that I'm resorting to those unhealthy mechanisms.

[waverider]

Waverider, you're a God-send. Your posts and words of wisdom really do help me put things into perspective. It is passive-aggressive. It is impulsive... .all symptoms of BPD. And it's sad that I'm resorting to those unhealthy mechanisms.

Its called  fleas. You start to take on similar inappropriate behavior like a chamelion. Your flirting with others for ulterior manipulative and self serving reasons is no better than the behavior of a pwBPD.

Not judging, I have done it too.

This is were focusing on independence and self validation is the key to surviving a BPD relationship.

You may not be able to fully achieve this, but being truly aware of what you do will prevent it getting out of hand. We can't all be martyrs, but we can strive to be more self aware and comfortable with forgiving ourselves when we can't live up to what we know we should be doing.

At least learning about BPD will help you identify some of the less admirable qualities in ourselves. These skills serve to self validate my own sense of self worth. I am far better than I was, and I feel no need to prove it to anyone.

[karma_gal]

Karma_Girl,

What I meant by that being a defense mechanism was that it, in a way, protects my ego or self-worth (?) He just makes me feel so unworthy. I think to myself, if a man like this can't treat me with respect, who will? So it's like by gaining validation from other men, even just verbally, I feel like I am still desirable and worthy of respect and love.

And I do understand he is ill and I shouldn't take it personally, it's all projection stemming from his own feelings of low self-worth, but I'm only human and when I'm being treated in such a way for a long period of time, I start to believe that maybe there is something wrong with me... .

I totally get it, and it seems we're both doing the same thing, just calling it something different, but I totally get the protection aspect of it.  For me, I know it's wrong because I'm married and I should not be seeking anything outside the confines of my marriage, and didn't for a lot of years, in fact.  It has just been recently that when men spoke, I would speak back.  The more that happened, the more I found myself able to converse with a man, laugh with a man, just be me with a man, it helped me to become stronger and started me on a road to recovery.  Because, like you, I had heard for years how nobody else would want me, who would put up with me, and he had me feeling absolutely worthless.  Now, I know that's just more projection on his end and that he's full of it. 

Here, it has been a great thing for me.  I'm getting my swagger back, my confidence has returned, I smile and laugh often.  For my marriage, it's been hell, because now he knows that I know that all that crap he fed me for years just isn't so.  He sees other men engage me in conversation and he becomes enraged.  He sees me buy a new outfit and insists it must be for my boyfriend.  It has gotten ugly at times.  The one thing I have noticed, though, is he isn't as quick to run out the door and disappear for weeks on end now because he and I both know he really is replaceable. 

Having had him drag me to the depths of hell and tell me things that had me on the verge of suicide, I know how you feel right now.  I say do what you have to do to feel good about yourself and to build yourself back up.  You and I and everyone here knows he isn't capable of building you up, only tearing you down.  The one thing I would caution you on, though, is knowing your limits when it comes to engaging with other men.  I found myself on the verge of an emotional affair last year because it felt so damn good, and I had to really rein myself in and knock it off.  To this day, I know that it was wrong.  I'm glad I recognized it and pulled back.  The one thing it did, though, was show me the other side; that there are men out there who are normal and healthy and funny and awesome, and it's made me all that more determined to get out of this mess I'm in and find one, when the time is right.

[amja77]

It's so funny how right when we start getting attention from someone else or begin to welcome compliments from others, they come running back or start to want our attention... .

[waverider]

It's so funny how right when we start getting attention from someone else or begin to welcome compliments from others, they come running back or start to want our attention... .

Its juggling with dynamite though, it could be like being hugged by a suicide bomber

[karma_gal]

It's so funny how right when we start getting attention from someone else or begin to welcome compliments from others, they come running back or start to want our attention... .

The classic, "I don't want you, but I don't want anyone else to have you, either" thing! 

[blueeyedjess]

It's so funny how right when we start getting attention from someone else or begin to welcome compliments from others, they come running back or start to want our attention... .

Agreed- mine blames me for taking some pride in myself and puts me down for doing so but then wants all my time and attention.

[necchi]

First you've got to ask a psychologist why you are still in this relationship and what you want from your life? Because there is a possibility if you won't access to your unconscious first you might involve with another borderline and make it more messy [ quote ]

Just wanted to clarify two things here and give my feedbacks... I will open this up be stating " THIS IS ABOUT YOU "   I'll come back to this.

----Consulting is a better term while a psychologist can't answer questions about what YOU want in life.

----Accessing our subconscious? ? UNRELATED.                                                   We think out of our consciousness, cognitive thinking, were we relate, analyze OUR emotions toward goals, actions that becomes part of OUR reality.

An healthy relationships never implies two persons becomes one. A relation is about YOU first.

healing, moving on, as to be about YOU!

Even if this and that, no matter how serious it is, make it about YOU.

Staying because he/she might become suicidal, only kills you a little, time after time.

This doesn't suggest to act impulsively, but to set YOUR goals ,need first if the love one treated YOU, you have the choice of ignoring our seeking help for him/her so YOU can move on.

After all the abuse, as you know, our self esteem is scarce, none existent for some and no one can fix this but YOU---- That is taking actions , set your goals based on facts (abuse) more so than on feelings (but i love him still, i can fix him/she) Our cognitive thinking is wronged at that point ,sending us overwhelming feelings,emotions,we even gas light our own judgement, Feel immense guilt,sadness but rationalize all this for YOURSELF... .

Its a selfish process. Make it about YOU !

And minimize the damage, weight the outcome of your actions . Revenge cheating, while being valorising, exiting is always setting you on the sharp edge of the blade !

My two cents

[Pearl55]

marinro7

About 80% of what everybody does is unconscious. When you say you really know yourself is only 20%. There's no doubt borderlines are severely disturbed (ALL THE TIME). Why we stayed with them? Why we wanted to save our OPPONENTS? Why I thought my husband is really in love with me? Why I ignored all his abnormalities? Why I trusted my life to my enemy? That's all unconscious.


About cheating, borderlines are not able to have a feeling of a husband or wife or lover. They need a mum! Borderlines self worth is less than zero but their false self mask is very well developed.


Always is best to end a relationship first and then start another one but I could remember my GP tried to signal me so many times to get the hell out but I couldn't understand, even last time he said to me find somebody else, do it. Bless him he really tried to help me. Such a shame I wasn't wise enough.