A Question To Ask Them At The End

[Turkish]

If possible, of course... .

":)id you ever love me for my own sake?"

I am pretty sure I will get a chance to ask that at the end. Her response will be just one more insight into the vast emptiness inside... .

[Waifed]

Turkish

You really need her to move out for your own sanity.  If you are going to hurt let it be while you are healing.  I feel the pain in your posts right now.  Hang tough buddy. 

[Perfidy]

If possible, of course... .

":)id you ever love me for my own sake?"

I am pretty sure I will get a chance to ask that at the end. Her response will be just one more insight into the vast emptiness inside... .

Just say good bye. The answer won't matter. Just words, and you are correct in that it will only give you more to process. Hugs turk

[seeking balance]

If possible, of course... .

":)id you ever love me for my own sake?"

I am pretty sure I will get a chance to ask that at the end. Her response will be just one more insight into the vast emptiness inside... .

I say this with kindness Turkish, but it is time to focus on your emptiness, your hurt. 

You already know the answer to your question, how can we help you stop ruminating on her and focus your energy on healing you?

[Turkish]

If possible, of course... .

":)id you ever love me for my own sake?"

I am pretty sure I will get a chance to ask that at the end. Her response will be just one more insight into the vast emptiness inside... .

Just say good bye. The answer won't matter. Just words, and you are correct in that it will only give you more to process. Hugs turk

Thanks.  you are right.  it should just be goodbye with my NC  boundaries,  making it clear I  will ignore any communication nut having correctly to do with the kids. I  expect  some later,  so stay tuned in the coming months for some entertainment... .

Waifed, I  hear you,  but in no way am I moving out of my house.  I'm moving fat legally and financially to set my life for the next few years.  it is helping to focus on the finality of it.  like the T I  consulted with today ( to get into a local men's support group),  she said I  need to focus on me and not her.  it's helped that many of you have been saying this very thing.  yet like a dog returning to its vomit, I  still do... .  

[Waifed]

We have all returned to the vomit more than once.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

[fromheeltoheal]

yet like a dog returning to its vomit, I  still do... .    Nice visual!

I agree with others that your focus needs to shift, but also, don't ask that question; for one thing an emotionally stunted person with a personality disorder doesn't know what love is, beyond the fantasy version in their heads, plus any answer she gives you will just be fuel on the fire in your head.  Better to be polite, cordial, boring and uninvolved emotionally.

[Ironmanrises]

I just broke down in tears reading your post Turkish. She will never answer your noble question in the way it should be answered. Her disorder, will prevent her from such a thing. The ending result will only be further hurt bestowed on you. Hang in there my friend. Your proximity to her is keeping your hurt prolonged and amplified to a degree that is not fair to you. You have suffered enough indignities from her. 

[Arctic Monkey]

If you ask, don't expect her to respond like a normal human being. She's wired differently to you. There are other fish in the sea. You sound like a great guy and there'll be a cute little fish waiting out there for you, I guarantee it.

That's the only advice I can offer.  My ex gf and I didn't have kids together and mine are much older than yours so I realise your situation is way more  complex. And before all you guys point it out, I do realise that's biologically impossible but you know what I meant! 

[charred]

Mine answered that question pre-emptively once... . said she loved me, really did, always would... . but that I was too disordered for it to work. Then she followed it up by telling me I was unfriended, blocked on all emails, and her phones.  So I ignored her and about a week later she was burning up the phone line, texting and going between calling me the biblical beast with 666 on me... . and telling me I was her soul mate.  The rest of her note pretty well nullified saying she really cared... so... it didn't accomplish anything.

After a while you know they are needy and  clingy and hateful and deceptive... . so whatever they say becomes suspect... . telling you wouldn't settle your mind like you think it might.

Takes a lot to accept reality as it is... neither attributing malice to all they do (vilifying them) or giving their statements too much merit... they are like they are, raging/hating/crying/drama and all.  I can't live with the turmoil ever again... so it is over and NC on my side.

[Turkish]

If you ask, don't expect her to respond like a normal human being. She's wired differently to you. There are other fish in the sea. You sound like a great guy and there'll be a cute little fish waiting out there for you, I guarantee it.

That's the only advice I can offer.  My ex gf and I didn't have kids together and mine are much older than yours so I realise your situation is way more  complex. And before all you guys point it out, I do realise that's biologically impossible but you know what I meant!  

Thanks, AM.

And everybody: I don't expect to get any kind of coherent answer out of it. Knowing her so well, I actually would expect silence as she tries to process what I said. The one thing I did always like about her is that even when we were arguing, she would say things later that indicated to me that she did process certain things on some level. Kind of like a hidden respect for me. I don't need it now. It would just be a jab on my part, and clinical curiosity on what her response would be. Nothing she could say now would really hurt me, as I could predict whatever she might say.

She thinks she is soo complex, but she is really very simple. A pattern. Maybe I should just look at her as the live version of Matrix code. Seemingly incomprehensible, but I see through it to the truth, like Neo, or one of those ship operators. Actually, that visual makes me smile. I'll try it the next time I look at her, though she will probably ask why I am smiling.

My focus is now: ME. Not alienating the kids. Deprogramming the kids, both D and S in different ways, and protecting them without alienating them from their mother.

As long as she doesn't paint me black as a father (which she hasn't, because she neeeeds me as the safety valve), then I will be the best d@mn father I can be. Something I never had, so I'm winging it :^)

[arn131arn]

If you ask, don't expect her to respond like a normal human being. She's wired differently to you. There are other fish in the sea. You sound like a great guy and there'll be a cute little fish waiting out there for you, I guarantee it.

That's the only advice I can offer.  My ex gf and I didn't have kids together and mine are much older than yours so I realise your situation is way more  complex. And before all you guys point it out, I do realise that's biologically impossible but you know what I meant!  

Thanks, AM.

And everybody: I don't expect to get any kind of coherent answer out of it. Knowing her so well, I actually would expect silence as she tries to process what I said. The one thing I did always like about her is that even when we were arguing, she would say things later that indicated to me that she did process certain things on some level. Kind of like a hidden respect for me. I don't need it now. It would just be a jab on my part, and clinical curiosity on what her response would be. Nothing she could say now would really hurt me, as I could predict whatever she might say.

She thinks she is soo complex, but she is really very simple. A pattern. Maybe I should just look at her as the live version of Matrix code. Seemingly incomprehensible, but I see through it to the truth, like Neo, or one of those ship operators. Actually, that visual makes me smile. I'll try it the next time I look at her, though she will probably ask why I am smiling.

My focus is now: ME. Not alienating the kids. Deprogramming the kids, both D and S in different ways, and protecting them without alienating them from their mother.

As long as she doesn't paint me black as a father (which she hasn't, because she neeeeds me as the safety valve), then I will be the best d@mn father I can be. Something I never had, so I'm winging it :^)

There is a pattern.  A pattern I am trying to break.  I am not going to enable her ever again.  I will talk to her again, Turk, but it's going to be on my time, when I am strong enough to do so.

I am allot like you, I have NEVER been able to be a good father bc she has alientated my son from me even when we were togethe.r.  She talks bad about me to him about me, I know.  But the thing is, I am going to start fathering my son soon, I need to get this consent judgement in place by early next week.

Stay strong, Turk.  Ilove your posts, bro... . we can do this together

[Turkish]

If you ask, don't expect her to respond like a normal human being. She's wired differently to you. There are other fish in the sea. You sound like a great guy and there'll be a cute little fish waiting out there for you, I guarantee it.

That's the only advice I can offer.  My ex gf and I didn't have kids together and mine are much older than yours so I realise your situation is way more  complex. And before all you guys point it out, I do realise that's biologically impossible but you know what I meant!  

Thanks, AM.

And everybody: I don't expect to get any kind of coherent answer out of it. Knowing her so well, I actually would expect silence as she tries to process what I said. The one thing I did always like about her is that even when we were arguing, she would say things later that indicated to me that she did process certain things on some level. Kind of like a hidden respect for me. I don't need it now. It would just be a jab on my part, and clinical curiosity on what her response would be. Nothing she could say now would really hurt me, as I could predict whatever she might say.

She thinks she is soo complex, but she is really very simple. A pattern. Maybe I should just look at her as the live version of Matrix code. Seemingly incomprehensible, but I see through it to the truth, like Neo, or one of those ship operators. Actually, that visual makes me smile. I'll try it the next time I look at her, though she will probably ask why I am smiling.

My focus is now: ME. Not alienating the kids. Deprogramming the kids, both D and S in different ways, and protecting them without alienating them from their mother.

As long as she doesn't paint me black as a father (which she hasn't, because she neeeeds me as the safety valve), then I will be the best d@mn father I can be. Something I never had, so I'm winging it :^)

There is a pattern.  A pattern I am trying to break.  I am not going to enable her ever again.  I will talk to her again, Turk, but it's going to be on my time, when I am strong enough to do so.

I am allot like you, I have NEVER been able to be a good father bc she has alientated my son from me even when we were togethe.r.  She talks bad about me to him about me, I know.  But the thing is, I am going to start fathering my son soon, I need to get this consent judgement in place by early next week.

Stay strong, Turk.  Ilove your posts, bro... . we can do this together

Thanks, arn... . mine seems a bit more high functioning than yours. I guess in that I am lucky. She hasn't alienated them from me... . yet. The thing I need to look for is brainwashing about man/woman relationship dynamics. If she gets into a stable r/s some time in the future (there is a chance... . with a co-dependent waif rescuer like me), then there is that dynamic. Then there is the stupid stuff she watches on youtube about men and women. I've walked into the room with her watching it with one or both of the kids already. Then where is her devaluing attitude with men, which WILL hurt our son eventually. That was partially my own childhood experience. I've already caught a few subtle comments I don't like, though she loves him to death most of the time. As he matures into being more autonomous, that will change. I know it. She;'s already "lost it" a few times because he is hyper emotional (like her... . D1 is more like me :^) Still a 1 year old, but her tantrums are much more subdued than S3's were at the same age.

I appreciate it arn... . and I feel for you worse... . that alienation crap is something I need to read up on.  I think I'll be around here a long time.

[Learning_curve74]

Hey Turkish, of course you want to feel like you meant something to her. And you want to hear her say it, who wouldn't? Unfortunately, you know her words are worthless.

Keep on focusing on yourself as well as taking care of your kids. You already know what kind of person your wife is. What kind of person are you?

[arn131arn]

If you ask, don't expect her to respond like a normal human being. She's wired differently to you. There are other fish in the sea. You sound like a great guy and there'll be a cute little fish waiting out there for you, I guarantee it.

That's the only advice I can offer.  My ex gf and I didn't have kids together and mine are much older than yours so I realise your situation is way more  complex. And before all you guys point it out, I do realise that's biologically impossible but you know what I meant!  

Thanks, AM.

And everybody: I don't expect to get any kind of coherent answer out of it. Knowing her so well, I actually would expect silence as she tries to process what I said. The one thing I did always like about her is that even when we were arguing, she would say things later that indicated to me that she did process certain things on some level. Kind of like a hidden respect for me. I don't need it now. It would just be a jab on my part, and clinical curiosity on what her response would be. Nothing she could say now would really hurt me, as I could predict whatever she might say.

She thinks she is soo complex, but she is really very simple. A pattern. Maybe I should just look at her as the live version of Matrix code. Seemingly incomprehensible, but I see through it to the truth, like Neo, or one of those ship operators. Actually, that visual makes me smile. I'll try it the next time I look at her, though she will probably ask why I am smiling.

My focus is now: ME. Not alienating the kids. Deprogramming the kids, both D and S in different ways, and protecting them without alienating them from their mother.

As long as she doesn't paint me black as a father (which she hasn't, because she neeeeds me as the safety valve), then I will be the best d@mn father I can be. Something I never had, so I'm winging it :^)

There is a pattern.  A pattern I am trying to break.  I am not going to enable her ever again.  I will talk to her again, Turk, but it's going to be on my time, when I am strong enough to do so.

I am allot like you, I have NEVER been able to be a good father bc she has alientated my son from me even when we were togethe.r.  She talks bad about me to him about me, I know.  But the thing is, I am going to start fathering my son soon, I need to get this consent judgement in place by early next week.

Stay strong, Turk.  Ilove your posts, bro... . we can do this together

Thanks, arn... . mine seems a bit more high functioning than yours. I guess in that I am lucky. She hasn't alienated them from me... . yet. The thing I need to look for is brainwashing about man/woman relationship dynamics. If she gets into a stable r/s some time in the future (there is a chance... . with a co-dependent waif rescuer like me), then there is that dynamic. Then there is the stupid stuff she watches on youtube about men and women. I've walked into the room with her watching it with one or both of the kids already. Then where is her devaluing attitude with men, which WILL hurt our son eventually. I've already caught a few subtle comments I don't like, though she loves him to death most of the time. As he matures into being more autonomous, that will change. I know it. She;'s already "lost it" a few times because he is hyper emotional (like her... . D1 is more like me :^) Still a 1 year old, but her tantrums are much more subdued than S3's were at the same age.

I appreciate it arn... . and I feel for you worse... . that alienation crap is something I need to read up on.  I think I'll be around here a long time. [/quote]
Her family is playing the FOG on me.  They are trying to use fear that i will lose in court bc of the DV charges.  Obligated to pay more child support when I don't make that much money, and guilt for me being an alcoholic.

I am NO LONGER playing that, I will stand up, fight for my son bc I AM his only hope for understanding trust, intimacy, honesty, and reality!

It's me who has this chance.  

It's funny, she was so enmeshed with my son (showering and sleeping together), I was the odd man out for years.  I started to resent that, I even started to resent my son (I know it's not his fault).  But it was always her and him.  Everyone thought she was such a great mother bc of this.  Really?  And she would make excuses for herself and just tell people about her undying love of her child.  Well, I know now it's not love... . it's need.

She has shown her true colors the past 3 weeks.  She has been "pawning" him off to her family so she can go sleep at one of the millionaire's homes in the city.  I see her for what she is... . NOT REAL!

PI for 125/hr... . sucks to be her!

[Turkish]

It's funny, she was so enmeshed with my son (showering and sleeping together), I was the odd man out for years.  I started to resent that, I even started to resent my son (I know it's not his fault).  But it was always her and him.  Everyone thought she was such a great mother bc of this.  Really?  And she would make excuses for herself and just tell people about her undying love of her child.  Well, I know now it's not love... . it's need.

She has shown her true colors the past 3 weeks.  She has been "pawning" him off to her family so she can go sleep at one of the millionaire's homes in the city.  I see her for what she is... . NOT REAL!

I don't want to get into a custody discussion here... . but showering and sleeping together. How old is your son? This sounds like the start of something very, very bad. Is there any way you can document that, or get her to admit to it? Psych evals?

And I forgot your legal custody issue, forgive me if you told me. But without a court order, you have 50% physical and legal custody, de facto. I know the DV hangs over your head, but is there any way you can just show up and get him rather than her pawning him off on her family? And any way to document her abandonment of him?

Your court is impending... . I guess you may have to wait and see what happens. Lose the FOG. She sounds like a toxic mother. You deserve your kid and he deserves you!

[arn131arn]

It's funny, she was so enmeshed with my son (showering and sleeping together), I was the odd man out for years.  I started to resent that, I even started to resent my son (I know it's not his fault).  But it was always her and him.  Everyone thought she was such a great mother bc of this.  Really?  And she would make excuses for herself and just tell people about her undying love of her child.  Well, I know now it's not love... . it's need.

She has shown her true colors the past 3 weeks.  She has been "pawning" him off to her family so she can go sleep at one of the millionaire's homes in the city.  I see her for what she is... . NOT REAL!

I don't want to get into a custody discussion here... . but showering and sleeping together. How old is your son? This sounds like the start of something very, very bad. Is there any way you can document that, or get her to admit to it? Psych evals?

And I forgot your legal custody issue, forgive me if you told me. But without a court order, you have 50% physical and legal custody, de facto. I know the DV hangs over your head, but is there any way you can just show up and get him rather than her pawning him off on her family? And any way to document her abandonment of him?

Your court is impending... . I guess you may have to wait and see what happens. Lose the FOG. She sounds like a toxic mother. You deserve your kid and he deserves you!

Totally toxic.  But judges and doctors know how to get that info out of a child without scarring him.

Where I live we can do a consent judgement where everyone can be in agreement, the judge signs off on it, and it is offically a court order.  Whoever breaks it is in contempt.

[Turkish]

Where I live we can do a consent judgement where everyone can be in agreement, the judge signs off on it, and it is offically a court order.  Whoever breaks it is in contempt.

I think that is how it may work where I am with the least drama. I think my X, in addition to not trusting people, may be scared on some level to have something legally filed, because she knows she is unstable. That, and her Queen tendencies have been resurfacing past the Waif this past week. I trust nothing.

I will be willing to work with her to be flexible as far as trading visitation days as needed (as one lawyer said, the courts like to see two adults working together for the best interests of the children, so the court doesn't have to get involved). I do, however, want me and our kids protected should it ever come to that. Very important, and good luck to us both!

[Iwalk-Heruns]

If you ask, don't expect her to respond like a normal human being. She's wired differently to you. There are other fish in the sea. You sound like a great guy and there'll be a cute little fish waiting out there for you, I guarantee it.

That's the only advice I can offer.  My ex gf and I didn't have kids together and mine are much older than yours so I realise your situation is way more  complex. And before all you guys point it out, I do realise that's biologically impossible but you know what I meant!  

Thanks, AM.

And everybody: I don't expect to get any kind of coherent answer out of it. Knowing her so well, I actually would expect silence as she tries to process what I said. The one thing I did always like about her is that even when we were arguing, she would say things later that indicated to me that she did process certain things on some level. Kind of like a hidden respect for me. I don't need it now. It would just be a jab on my part, and clinical curiosity on what her response would be. Nothing she could say now would really hurt me, as I could predict whatever she might say.

She thinks she is soo complex, but she is really very simple. A pattern. Maybe I should just look at her as the live version of Matrix code. Seemingly incomprehensible, but I see through it to the truth, like Neo, or one of those ship operators. Actually, that visual makes me smile. I'll try it the next time I look at her, though she will probably ask why I am smiling.

My focus is now: ME. Not alienating the kids. Deprogramming the kids, both D and S in different ways, and protecting them without alienating them from their mother.

As long as she doesn't paint me black as a father (which she hasn't, because she neeeeds me as the safety valve), then I will be the best d@mn father I can be. Something I never had, so I'm winging it :^)

There is a pattern.  A pattern I am trying to break.  I am not going to enable her ever again.  I will talk to her again, Turk, but it's going to be on my time, when I am strong enough to do so.

I am allot like you, I have NEVER been able to be a good father bc she has alientated my son from me even when we were togethe.r.  She talks bad about me to him about me, I know.  But the thing is, I am going to start fathering my son soon, I need to get this consent judgement in place by early next week.

Stay strong, Turk.  Ilove your posts, bro... . we can do this together

Don't want to hijack the post but just a quick side bar on this Arn and anyone else dealing with parental alienation.

It is such a serious thing that can really hurt your children long term. Could you research this and show her nicely ( for sake of the kids) evidence of what this could will do to the kids and somehow works this aspect out and possibly call a truce when it comes to them. Would she possibly at least care enough about your kids to do this? I am sure you have probably tried everything. I know you have. It's just that I have a son and saw what my divorce did to him and the pain he has suffered over it and the hurt his father created in him. ( not current RS situation but in the past). It lives on for their whole life. He is now 18.

[Turkish]

 Thanks I-H.  this is something I  have already observed within myself and I  don't like it. I  think mine won't do it,  as I  don't feel she's painted me black as a father ( just the mother anxiety she gets from her mother that gets posed into me sometimes).  that could change,  but I  need to get past this. I  try and try to say good things about her to them.  they don't need to feel our pain for sure.  they're just kids and should remain that easy as long as possible.

[fiddlestix]

Turk, over the years, she needed you... . then she didn't... . then she did... . then she didn't... . then she did... .    

Love? 

Who knows how she interprets/understands love? If she is BPD, she probably does not possess the solid personality and sense of self upon which to anchor love.  It's nothing personal against you, Turk.  She just is not capable of loving you in the way you hope.  I am not a psychologist.  But I am a chaplain with a lot of time trying to understand people.  And, I spent 25 years deeply loving, and under the spell of a gorgeous, charismatic BPD wife.  She said she "loved" me, but her actions often proclaimed to me that I was a piece of crap for whom she had no regard (cheat, lie, bully, yell, insult, belittle,sneak... . ).  I may never understand.  7 months no contact.  The poison is slowly leaching out.  Soon, I hope to not care whether or not the woman loved me or not.

Fiddlestix

[Turkish]

Turk, over the years, she needed you... . then she didn't... . then she did... . then she didn't... . then she did... .  

Love?  

Who knows how she interprets/understands love? If she is BPD, she probably does not possess the solid personality and sense of self upon which to anchor love.  It's nothing personal against you, Turk.  She just is not capable of loving you in the way you hope.  I am not a psychologist.  But I am a chaplain with a lot of time trying to understand people.  And, I spent 25 years deeply loving, and under the spell of a gorgeous, charismatic BPD wife.  She said she "loved" me, but her actions often proclaimed to me that I was a piece of crap for whom she had no regard (cheat, lie, bully, yell, insult, belittle,sneak... . ).  I may never understand.  7 months no contact.  The poison is slowly leaching out.  Soon, I hope to not care whether or not the woman loved me or not.

Fiddlestix

I'm sorry Fiddlestix,  that is a long time,  and it must have been much harder having a high profile profession... .

I  saw she was looking at my FB  page the other night. I  blocked her,  but I think she can still see mine.  the pics she was looking at were interesting.  not just pics of our family,  but some of me just on my bike.  She's not only reminiscing,  but probably regretting. I  know.  however,  that's what she's feeling now.  no constancy. I  won't upgrade my security.  let her look. I  find it just sad,  but don't care on my side.  She's almost back to  normal,  and with the kids too,  which is good for them.  we're done forever and I'll let her go as gracefully as possible.

[TakingWingAtLast]

Turkish,

I've been away from the boards for a bit as I had limited connectivity while staying in Bermuda.

But you already know what I'm going to say!  Move on... .   Take care of business with her ONLY via LC and take care of your kids.   You will gain nothing by engaging!  Only more pain.   

I'm sorry, my friend.  It's the same lesson for every single one of us!   I had my birthday yesterday.   The ex wrote, of course, saying she wants to be friends.  NO REPLY.

It has to be this way for you to heal, my friend.  It's time!  And you know you've been doing pretty well thus far.   

As always, we got your back!

D

[seeking balance]

I  saw she was looking at my FB  page the other night. I  blocked her,  but I think she can still see mine.  the pics she was looking at were interesting.  not just pics of our family,  but some of me just on my bike.  She's not only reminiscing,  but probably regretting. I  know.  however,  that's what she's feeling now.  no constancy. I  won't upgrade my security.  let her look. I  find it just sad,  but don't care on my side.  She's almost back to  normal,  and with the kids too,  which is good for them.  we're done forever and I'll let her go as gracefully as possible.

So Turkish, you have analyzed what she is doing and what she is feeling.

What about you - what do you FEEL?