Do you always keep a 3rd party present?

[Legacymaker]

I am just curious, how many of you feel that you need to keep a 3rd party present when you have conversations with your BP relative?

My mother only rages when we are alone.  When I try to tell others the things she said, she twists my words, cries and becomes the victim.  I am always left looking like the bad girl.

[bright_future_mama]

I have a new rule that I will only be around here with my husband present.  I'm NC anyway, but if I ever were to see her again, that would be my rule.  And my children aren't allowed to be alone with her.  She twists things, says inappropriate things, uses anything you say against you later... .

[Legacymaker]

Bright_future_mama

Does your mother treat the kids or your spouse the same way she treats you? 

Mine directs most of her hostility towards me and generally hides it until we are alone.

There is no way she would dare to show her true colors in front of my husband. She does recruit her own husband at times but he enables her victim side.

She is close to 2 of my 3 children (although I think they see through her) and she really attacks the middle one.  She sets him up constantly and pits him against his brothers. 

As I am understanding more about this disorder, I have also come to realize she pits my b and I against each other too.  He was always the "bad" one and I the "good".

I have also noticed that she can't have peace in her world at any time.  We have just come off of 3 year NC with my b.  He is uNPD.  As she forgave him, I became her target-now he is the golden boy!

[Legacymaker]

I mostly do not fear for my physical safety (although she has started being a little more physically aggressive in the past few years).  I do however feel for my mental safety ALL the time!  I think I come across as very controlling because I anticipate the constant confrontations and condemnations.  I walk on eggshells most of the time.  She has started calling me a hateful b****, because she sees my walls up all the time now (and they are).  As soon as I let down my own guards down and start trusting her to act like a mother, that she finds her vicious ways in.

In answer to your question about "does your mother remain in control when your husband is present, then call when she gets home"... . YES and most of the time it is used as ammunition to drive a wedge between our relationship.  My husband and I have been happily married for over 30 years.  I attribute our success to setting a lot of boundries with my mother.

My mother and I live in seperate states (safety net #1).  I have always loved and admired my mom. She is smart and funny.  I have been a "good girl" through my entire life.  I have always tried to please her.  I have sought my mothers approval for everything.  It was when I tried to individuate from her that the problems started. I became "stupid, ridiculous, vicious, hateful etc. etc)

I have spent the better part of my life picking my mother up off the ground,, through crisis after crisis (bad marriages, depression, failed relationships with other friends and family members).    Only now, at the age of 50, am I understanding that she uses me.  She builds me up, only to tear away at the strengths I have, then she blasts a hole in my foundation which becomes deeper and deeper to dig out of.  I have only just begun to understand the games that have been played, the isolation from other family members, the false love that she offers.

My mother uses our phone time to have one of two conversations.  She will trump herself up with grandiose messages. She needs to be on a platform all of the time. If I interject with something that is going on in our lives or our childrens lives it will be used as ammunition in a future conversation (so I mostly listen).  The other conversations will be as she "processes" all the wrongs people do to her (she is the consumate victim).

As I said, I use to call every day because I thought I was helping, now I realize it was just enabling her.  Last year, I set a new boundery and began calling her once a week.  This has now become a 3 hour phone call that interferes with me getting my work done.  This recently got used against me... . that "I" am taking up too much of her time (remember I rarely say anything during these phone conversations).

At this point, I would be okay with a monthly (or less) phone call, but guilt/obligation are still driving me to maintain regular contact.

My mother doesn't have any real "friends". She has run through a lot of relationships with people.  Some of these she mourns, some she discounts and others she just dismisses as "it's their problem".  She is enabled by her sister and her husband and basically I am happy that she has some support system, even though I think they are unhealthy relationships.  

I usually only have physical contact about once a year (at Christmas).  I have hosted the festivities at my house for over 20 years (another safety net).  I would say that we have had some form of confrontation every one of those years.

My mother and I had such a blowout this year, I must really consider if I want to keep allowing her and her husband to come to our home for the holidays.  I am struggling with changing the tradition because even though my mother is constantly ridiculing me and trying to come between all of our relationships, our sons love their grandparents dearly.  

I will read more about triangulation and see if their are other safety nets I can put in place.  I would very much appreciate hearing how others manage.

[bright_future_mama]

Legacymaker,

No, she is not interested in my boys, only my oldest girl.  She projects on to her (you are just like me, you look like me, you are so creative, beautiful, special).  She's always made it a point that she didn't like/want boys because her mother didn't like girls and didn't treat her like a girl/accept her.  So she did the same thing, in opposite mode.

She has to keep up the front in front of my husband/others, so she is always on best behavior (I'm so charming) around others.  That's where I have a hard time.  She KNOWS when she is being inappropriate.  She can turn it off and on... . So, what does that say about her?  Can she help it?  Seems like she does have some control over herself.

She even acts differently in front of me and my two sisters.  She is always on her best behavior in front of "the all good child."  Well, most of the time.  So my sister and I have somewhat different levels of tolerance for her...

My husband actually had someone approach him recently about how hard my Mom was on me growing up and much more so than she was to my sister.

[Legacymaker]

Bright_future_mama

It is so hard for me to read these posts.  There are a lot of people suffering on here and I just want to put my arms around many of them. 

How old are your children?  Mine are 26, 24 and 21 all males.

When thy were born, I became hyper vigilant about mentally protecting my kids, maybe to a fault.  I didn't tell them that their biological grandfather (we have lots of "steps" suffered from schizoaffective disorder.  He had a mental breakdown when they were in their teens.  Long story short, he threatened the safety of the oldest child and my husband.  I had to put an APB out for him to be admitted to a psyche ward.  In the meantime, I had to put my kids on lockdown and tell them the ugly truth about a grandparent they loved.  I have orchestrated around many dysfunctional family members-an abusive/alcoholic, and a mental illness (schizoaffective disorder).

I have always been a protector (read, rescuer).  My uBPD mother is no exception.  I make a lot of allowances for her behaviors and tolerate far more than I should to keep her active in our "family".

After my mothers last rage, I am considering sharing information on BPD with my kids.     I don't want to scare the boys with one more mental disorder.  (My sons are already worried about the kinds of genes they may eventually pass on to their own children.) 

The boys are pretty good about setting some boundries with her.  Our sons tend to favor a positive space in their lives.  They really haven't allowed me to say anything negative (which I feel is pretty healthy) and I am assuming they are putting the same rule in place with her.

It gets hard to be heard in this environment because if I consider our roles on the Kaplan triangle, she is the persecuter and I am the rescuer.  When I want my kids/husband to support me, I am the victim and that is a role I hate!  I am really trying to understand how to step off the triangle all together.

[MammaMia]

legacymaker

Your sons are old enough to know the truth about their grandmother.  They are adults and it is time to clue them in.  That should take away some of the confusion about her behavior, and it may also contribute to their support when you need it most.

We all do the best we can with what we have.  Information and education is key when dealing with BPD.  I see you have researched triangulation.  I hope it helps you to understand what is going on, and provides you with some skills to avoid being stuck in the middle or feeling like a victim.

We are so glad you are here.  Thank you for joining us.

[Legacymaker]

MammaMia

I found the info on triangulation quite interesting, thank you for suggesting it.  My t was often referring to "taking care of myself" and co-dependecy, but she never really explained what she meant. I have always known that I am the rescuer.  I had never considered that I might also become a victim or persecutor. 

It is a little too easy for me to take on the "guilty party" role and begin the self loathing, so I am trying to be gentle with myself as I consider the triangle.

I may have mentioned that my mother had her husband block me on fb (because my "happy" posts/messages (about my anniversary) were upsetting her.  This morning I get a text from her husband... . "could I please add my mother back because it is upsetting her"!  I know that my mom's husband has been in the dog house since he fulfilled her wishes!  Yes, I complied, but now I'm feeling sick over it.  I always marvel at the games people play!

Will keep learning new steps to "the dance".  I'm still on nc x 18 days.

[TiredofBeingAfraid]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to do this with my fiance's brother, who says he has BPD, and certainly acts like it, but we can't be sure if the diagnosis is real or he just fabricated it in his mind. (It's a very long story, and if you want to read about it, check out my introductory post entitled "Well, it all started when... . "

I've just avoided him for the past year. My fiance goes to see him because it's his brother, but I don't want to be anywhere near him again, especially not alone. I don't know how that's going to work out when we have kids. It's especially difficult to keep a third party around because no one else in his family wants to admit that he's dangerous, even when they are the ones that have been the victims of his violent rages.

[Eureka1]

I communicate by email only.  I will always have a 3rd person present because it provides a witness, plus offers protection from verbal or physical abuse.  My sister will be on her worst behavior if I am the only person.

My sister can twist things and recreate history and deny things, but with a 3rd party present, it is another witness to corroborate my recollections.

[Coral]

My hubby won't be alone with my sister.    I avoid her but find I'm freer when it's just the two of us.

[StarStruck]

Since I have been very LC last couple years. I thought to myself I would only def see her with my partner next because of the emotional abuse.

Since this time, I have decided to go NC so I didn't put that into action. I thought at the time a very good idea. I personally couldn't have physically dragged myself to see her on my own after the last load of weirdness, it just got that bad. I stood there just taking it still not understanding at the time what had kicked her off. I didn't think that would be the last time to see her, not a great lasting image of my mother.

Like you - only when I am on own or in a group silently to me... . words, actions, non action but I always new. I was the bad girl, the scapegoat.

Thinking of it, it would have been handy to of had recordings of the glances and the words spoken, as evidence to show the others in my family... . to assist with any validation. They would have never believed me, I stopped telling my enmeshed bro in the end. It sounded like I was making a problem out of thin air.

[losingconfidence]

Yes, I do, although then she calls me on it and gets upset (or at least my dad does).

[PleaseValidate]

I absolutely do. Or at least I TRY to.

The only reason I see her at all and am NOT NC right now is because shortly after she suckered me back into her world, my Grams died and she TOOK ALL MY STUFF from my Grams home to her house even though I did not want her to and it was not the rush she was making it out to be.  Nor did it cost her anything because she charged all to my Grams estate which I am not a beneficiary of. (Of course she was somehow doing me a huge favor right? And now I get angry emails telling me I'm not appreciative of "all of that I have done for you." (?))

So I've been paying to rent trucks and retrieving in little batches that I can physically handle. My ex is usually kind enough to go w me but he hates dealing w her too so is not always available.

But yeah, she is often a whole different person w a third party. This was INFURIATING when I was younger because friends would meet her and be like, "she's not that bad!"

Ahhhh!

[PleaseValidate]

Ps- LegacyMaker, I agree w MammaMia that your kids are old enough now to know the truth.

Also, on FB u can put her on an "acquaintance list" without her knowing and I *think* u can control access to some of your posts that way. (eg let her only see your miserable ones that make her happy.)

... . Yikes. I kinda hate that I just posted that. Is there any OTHER place in life where we can put these finely crafted enabling skills to good use?