Validation, empathy, compassion

[Depression = 72% of members]

I've learned as I've detached from a borderline that what I wasn't getting in the relationship were validation, empathy or compassion, or very small tidbits of it now and then, certainly nowhere near what I needed, wanted, and thought I deserved.

So now, I've made those a priority in my relationships with people, all people, not just romantic relationships, and I've noticed that looking at those relationships through that lens has changed everything.  I've always been a classic people pleaser, always putting other people's needs ahead of my own, and just focusing on getting my needs met in the first place has been profound, and then to focus on those specific needs is a whole other level.

I quickly discovered some people aren't really my friend and are either unable or unwilling to meet me at that level, so they gotta go.  I've noticed other people do care about me and want the best for me, and it's been fulfilling to express vulnerablitiy to them, they reciprocate, and the relationship deepens.  I've also noticed that telling people what I need and asking them for it is an exercise in vulnerability, and someone mentioned in a thread yesterday that asking for those things removes doubt in the relationship, which is totally true.  It's a brand new world, exciting.

Anyone else focusing on this?

[fromheeltoheal]

I've learned as I've detached from a borderline that what I wasn't getting in the relationship were validation, empathy or compassion, or very small tidbits of it now and then, certainly nowhere near what I needed, wanted, and thought I deserved.

So now, I've made those a priority in my relationships with people, all people, not just romantic relationships, and I've noticed that looking at those relationships through that lens has changed everything.  I've always been a classic people pleaser, always putting other people's needs ahead of my own, and just focusing on getting my needs met in the first place has been profound, and then to focus on those specific needs is a whole other level.

I quickly discovered some people aren't really my friend and are either unable or unwilling to meet me at that level, so they gotta go.  I've noticed other people do care about me and want the best for me, and it's been fulfilling to express vulnerablitiy to them, they reciprocate, and the relationship deepens.  I've also noticed that telling people what I need and asking them for it is an exercise in vulnerability, and someone mentioned in a thread yesterday that asking for those things removes doubt in the relationship, which is totally true.  It's a brand new world, exciting.

Anyone else focusing on this?

[love4meNOTu]

Yes, absolutely.

I've lost so much trust in people that it's time I start liking people again. How do I do that? By validating, listening, having compassion and empathy. I'm gonna be the kind of person I would like to be friends with.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, absolutely.

I've lost so much trust in people that it's time I start liking people again. How do I do that? By validating, listening, having compassion and empathy. I'm gonna be the kind of person I would like to be friends with.

Nice!  

[myself]

I am looking more closely at this, as well, beginning with friendships both old and new. It's more obvious to me now if people are listening or not. If they just want to talk about themselves or have a conversation that includes me. I also found I wasn't being as compassionate, empathetic, and validating with myself as I could have been, in the relationship with my ex, and that is something I am focusing on now.

[PrettyPlease]

I've learned as I've detached from a borderline that what I wasn't getting in the relationship were validation, empathy or compassion, or very small tidbits of it now and then, certainly nowhere near what I needed, wanted, and thought I deserved.

I am looking more closely at this, as well, beginning with friendships both old and new. It's more obvious to me now if people are listening or not. If they just want to talk about themselves or have a conversation that includes me.

Yes, me too. Good thread.

I used to ignore or discount obvious red flags around this, and recently I'm noticing them; two examples:

--a woman I found initially interesting and attractive and had several conversations with -- I've noticed that she's happy to talk about herself, but doesn't ask me about myself. Unbalanced. Before I would have ignored it. Now I don't.

--a male friend of several years' standing, who has what I'd call a pseudo-empathy/compassion/validation. He doesn't listen well, usually no longer than 1 or 2 seconds -- he already knows, somehow, what I'm going to express (or thinks he does), and gives an acted response, a polite and politically-correct one, that usually does more harm than good (because he hasn't actually heard me, and so I don't feel validated).

In both I still believe there's possibility of a relationship of some kind (especially the second, in which we play music together that is important to both of us), but I've become aware that they can't progress past a certain point because of this failure of reciprocal empathy.

PP

[seeking balance]

I've learned as I've detached from a borderline that what I wasn't getting in the relationship were validation, empathy or compassion, or very small tidbits of it now and then, certainly nowhere near what I needed, wanted, and thought I deserved.

So now, I've made those a priority in my relationships with people, all people, not just romantic relationships, and I've noticed that looking at those relationships through that lens has changed everything.  I've always been a classic people pleaser, always putting other people's needs ahead of my own, and just focusing on getting my needs met in the first place has been profound, and then to focus on those specific needs is a whole other level.

I quickly discovered some people aren't really my friend and are either unable or unwilling to meet me at that level, so they gotta go.  I've noticed other people do care about me and want the best for me, and it's been fulfilling to express vulnerablitiy to them, they reciprocate, and the relationship deepens.  I've also noticed that telling people what I need and asking them for it is an exercise in vulnerability, and someone mentioned in a thread yesterday that asking for those things removes doubt in the relationship, which is totally true.  It's a brand new world, exciting.

Anyone else focusing on this?

yes

My last 3 years have been processing this in all my relationships.  Some have deepened and always been there; others I found to be very superficial and it really shocked me to lose them.

At this point, I feel so grateful that my circle of friends is so ... . REAL

I went through a lot of pain and grief to get to this point... . but it has been so worth the journey.

I do like this topic Heel 

Peace,

SB

[Monarch Butterfly]

I went out with a friend last night and we talked for hours. The thing is I usually am very validating. l listen well, I have empathy but last night I feel like the conversation was all about me. I am so lost and hurt, I couldn't really listen to what she had to say. It was all about what do I do, how do I process this or that... . It was all about me. After I got home I realized that I was not a good friend last night. I don't want to turn into this ME ME ME thing, or be lost in my own little world that I can't see others. If I could get over this hurt soon, maybe I could be a better friend. Or if I work on being a better friend, I could get over this hurt. How does it work? I am usually not like this at all.

[fromheeltoheal]

I went out with a friend last night and we talked for hours. The thing is I usually am very validating. l listen well, I have empathy but last night I feel like the conversation was all about me. I am so lost and hurt, I couldn't really listen to what she had to say. It was all about what do I do, how do I process this or that... . It was all about me. After I got home I realized that I was not a good friend last night. I don't want to turn into this ME ME ME thing, or be lost in my own little world that I can't see others. If I could get over this hurt soon, maybe I could be a better friend. Or if I work on being a better friend, I could get over this hurt. How does it work? I am usually not like this at all.

I think friendships are give and take, and when we are going through something it's ok to take from our friends, plus it gives them the opportunity to give, to help, which everyone wants to do. One thing I've been practicing is asking for help, hard for me, and the right people are more than willing.

[fromheeltoheal]

yes

My last 3 years have been processing this in all my relationships.  Some have deepened and always been there; others I found to be very superficial and it really shocked me to lose them.

At this point, I feel so grateful that my circle of friends is so ... . REAL

I went through a lot of pain and grief to get to this point... . but it has been so worth the journey.

I do like this topic Heel  

Peace,

SB

That's exactly my goal Seeking.  There are only a couple of people I can call real friends, I've only gotten these realizations since the relationship ended, but it's good to get the validation that I'm on the right path, and good to know what can be created in 3 years.  Thanks!

[seeking balance]

 There are only a couple of people I can call real friends,

Brene' Brown calls them the "bury the body friends".

It's true, I can tell them my worst stuff, and they go through the muck with me and I with them.

There were some friends I had for 20 years that when I needed them to go through the muck (lord knows I went through it with them) they simply didn't.  It hurt - not gonna lie - but now I am good, really good.

Also, I have had deep friendships develop over these 3 years where we had common in trauma, but as life became more about living, we drifted and I accepted that is ok too.  It really has been a journey.

[bb12]

great thread

and yes - I can relate

the gift of the borderline is all of this. we wake up to them, then us and our FOO, and finally to life

and that final stage includes friends, work, lifestyle... . everything is fair game for detailed examination with a new level of consciousness. I have been devastated to learn just how fickle some of my longer standing friends actually are. They are my party friends but not my real friends. And it really stings when you realise that they are simply not there for you... . and probably never have been. But when we start putting our own needs further up the line and realise these people don't meet them, it's so painful.

My 'bury the body' friends can be counted on one hand. The 20 others I've wasted time, money and energy on all these years will have to go elsewhere for support, because they don't / can't support me.

bb12

[fromheeltoheal]

great thread

and yes - I can relate

the gift of the borderline is all of this. we wake up to them, then us and our FOO, and finally to life

and that final stage includes friends, work, lifestyle... . everything is fair game for detailed examination with a new level of consciousness. I have been devastated to learn just how fickle some of my longer standing friends actually are. They are my party friends but not my real friends. And it really stings when you realise that they are simply not there for you... . and probably never have been. But when we start putting our own needs further up the line and realise these people don't meet them, it's so painful.

My 'bury the body' friends can be counted on one hand. The 20 others I've wasted time, money and energy on all these years will have to go elsewhere for support, because they don't / can't support me.

bb12

Yes!  Great take on it bb.

There's a guy on Facebook named Jeff Brown who posts profound things regularly, to the point he's published them in a book.  A particularly appropriate one is:

Friends fell away as I individuated on my soul’s journey. As I shed one self-sense, I no longer identified with the people attached to it. Old ways of interacting seemed artificial, scripted, silly. Whereas before it was fine to hang out and waste time, now there was no time to lose. Now I had to protect my sacred purpose from connections that undermined it.  Be prepared for the lonely times on the journey. It can be very isolating to quest for true-path amid the trumpets of modern life. Walking through uncharted territory often means walking alone. This is particularly true in the transition stages before we find our consciousness soulpod. It’s like primary school all over again— who will be my first REAL friends?

[dontknow2]

Although part of this is driven by self-doubt and remnants of control issues, I stay alone on my journey except for fleeting touch points with others (mostly strangers). Instead, I help my family... . kids, ex, parents, siblings, cousins to grow incrementally with me. This is not altruistic though. I combine it with acts of restoring myself, learning from them, practicing, and validating my growth; like a litmus test. When I receive validation (i.e. see family who I know and previously resistant start to take steps on their own), this encourages me to continue confirming that I've processed my current work.

In addition to touch points with strangers, I use talking to myself out loud , this board, therapy, etc. to offset loneliness.

[bb12]

loved that Jeff Brown quote!

[Cumulus]

Love, patience, kindness, understanding, caring for the others well being, soothing, comforting, serving, and a feeling of being special. These are what I gave to the relationship without receiving  in return. Not so any longer. Now all is given and returned with at least equal measure. And now I feel a peace within my home and within myself that I never realized existed.

Yes heeltoheal, I have been thinking along these same lines. Thanks for the post.

[musicfan42]

I don't think most people are validating with me. It's like they think "Oh she can take it"-that I dish out a lot of really opinionated views so I should be able to take it in return. And the thing is, I am able to take it... I can stand up for myself but at the same time, am I not deserving of compassion, empathy and validation just like everyone else? What makes me so different from anyone else? Nothing. I'm a human being too. I deserve respect. I have the right to freedom of speech and I shouldn't be penalized for that.

I actually was talking to a guy recently and he told me that I was "intimidating", all because I stood up for myself. He was making sexist comments and I wasn't going to put up with that. When I was growing up, I stood up to my father and he told me that I was a b1tch umpteen times for doing so. It's like a woman is only considered "nice" when she puts up with abuse... that if she stands up for herself, she's a horrible person, undeserving of any kind of kindness or compassion.

I'm realizing now that I've gotten sexually harassed by men in the past and didn't even realize it. Well, it's not that I didn't realize it but I thought "oh it's my fault". I had to learn the hard way how to protect myself. So now, I'm very much like "look, let everyone else learn the hard way too". No one was in my corner, telling me how to handle it. I was just thrown in the deep end and expected to get on with it.  Why should I give other people the support I never got? That just seems unfair to me.

So it's very hard for me to actually want to give validation/compassion/empathy to other people. If someone's crying, then sure, I'll hand them a tissue, give them a hug, and say something comforting. But that's because it's the socially acceptable thing to do. It's not that I actually want to have to listen to someone bawl their eyes about something.

I feel that in the past, I've given people reassurance... rescued them. Not because I wanted to but because I felt obligated. And now I'm realizing that unless I actually want to do something, then just don't do it... that it's not worth it... that I'll just end up feeling very resentful about it.

[fromheeltoheal]

I don't think most people are validating with me. It's like they think "Oh she can take it"-that I dish out a lot of really opinionated views so I should be able to take it in return. And the thing is, I am able to take it... I can stand up for myself but at the same time, am I not deserving of compassion, empathy and validation just like everyone else? What makes me so different from anyone else? Nothing. I'm a human being too. I deserve respect. I have the right to freedom of speech and I shouldn't be penalized for that.

I actually was talking to a guy recently and he told me that I was "intimidating", all because I stood up for myself. He was making sexist comments and I wasn't going to put up with that. When I was growing up, I stood up to my father and he told me that I was a b1tch umpteen times for doing so. It's like a woman is only considered "nice" when she puts up with abuse... that if she stands up for herself, she's a horrible person, undeserving of any kind of kindness or compassion.

I'm realizing now that I've gotten sexually harassed by men in the past and didn't even realize it. Well, it's not that I didn't realize it but I thought "oh it's my fault". I had to learn the hard way how to protect myself. So now, I'm very much like "look, let everyone else learn the hard way too". No one was in my corner, telling me how to handle it. I was just thrown in the deep end and expected to get on with it.  Why should I give other people the support I never got? That just seems unfair to me.

So it's very hard for me to actually want to give validation/compassion/empathy to other people. If someone's crying, then sure, I'll hand them a tissue, give them a hug, and say something comforting. But that's because it's the socially acceptable thing to do. It's not that I actually want to have to listen to someone bawl their eyes about something.

I feel that in the past, I've given people reassurance... rescued them. Not because I wanted to but because I felt obligated. And now I'm realizing that unless I actually want to do something, then just don't do it... that it's not worth it... that I'll just end up feeling very resentful about it.

I've been there music, I know how you feel (guess that was validation).  You reminded me of my mother, who was all about doing things out of obligation, and it was incredibly important for her to reciprocate, god, how many times did I hear that word, to people to keep everything equal, but always surface relationships, nothing deep, except for a select few.

What I've noticed is I can have the kind of deep relationships we're talking about here with very few people; it's no one's fault, it's just a chemistry thing.  I'm a classic people pleaser, always putting other people's needs first, and I've had weak boundaries, telling folks too much too soon, before they've earned my trust, and it's resulted in disrespect more times than I can count.  Since my borderline 'experience' I've swung completely the other way, keeping strong boundaries and not telling people much, until some kind of trust and respect is built, and then I start letting them in.  Interesting, I always seem to have to go first, that's OK, it is what it is.  But what I've noticed, I'm kinda keeping stats, is that no more than about 10% of the people I meet, and I've been meeting a lot, really have the potential to go deeper in a relationship, strictly based on chemistry.  So it's a numbers game, and I'm OK with that; if I have to meet 50 people to end up with a handful of real friends, so be it, the important point to me being all people are not equal, and learning and accepting that has been a major shift.  

[PrettyPlease]

So now, I'm very much like "look, let everyone else learn the hard way too". No one was in my corner, telling me how to handle it. I was just thrown in the deep end and expected to get on with it.  Why should I give other people the support I never got? That just seems unfair to me.

But by this description, aren't you trying to run your life by adding up past injustices and applying them to your new relationships? I have my doubts that this can work. You won't find a balanced, caring, empathetic person with good boundaries, using this strategy.

In fact if you look at fromheeltoheal's original post and compare with what you've said here, you seem to be  describing the kind of person he's no longer willing to have a relationship with:

... . what I wasn't getting in the relationship were validation, empathy or compassion, or very small tidbits of it now and then, certainly nowhere near what I needed, wanted, and thought I deserved.

[snip]

I quickly discovered some people aren't really my friend and are either unable or unwilling to meet me at that level, so they gotta go.  

musicfan42, I understand that you want to be honest about how you feel, and you're describing situations where you don't actually feel empathy, you feel, as you said, "obligated".

But feelings are not facts and are not "true". The lack of empathy might be part of your own FOO issues, might it not? If so, expecting new relationships to be happy with that is not reasonable.

I believe my own FOO repressed and stunted my emotions, including empathy, and I recognize your position. But I think it's only a stop-gap strategy. The real question is how to access the empathy. Because I believe we're all capable of it.

PP

[musicfan42]

Thanks fromheeltoheal You understood exactly what I was trying to say.

I agree with you about the 10% number. There's some people that I just don't like. Then there's people that I don't have anything in common with. So that leaves a small number of people that I really get along with... . that I click with.

I want to be friends with a certain kind of person. I know what you mean when you say that not all people are equal... totally agree. I'm not prepared to put with the kinds of things that I put up with a few years ago. So that automatically narrows the pool of eligible friends.

PrettyPlease, I appreciate that you feel you're trying to help me out here however I feel that you've taken my original comments out of context. The issue isn't whether I have a lack of empathy. The issue is whether I have some moral obligation to help everyone out all the time or whether I have the right to set boundaries as and when I require.

I feel that women are socialized feeling that they must help other people, no matter what and they just end up disregarding their own needs. Fromheeltoheal touched on this issue when he said that I reminded him of his mother-feeling obligated and feeling burdened down by having to reciprocate... having to keep things equal all the time.

[PrettyPlease]

I feel that women are socialized feeling that they must help other people, no matter what and they just end up disregarding their own needs.

Got it; — I agree that you're right not to do this, and to set whatever boundaries around it that you need. And I see now that this is the main issue you were addressing.

But also, your post included this:

When I was growing up, I stood up to my father and he told me that I was a b1tch umpteen times for doing so. It's like a woman is only considered "nice" when she puts up with abuse... that if she stands up for herself, she's a horrible person, undeserving of any kind of kindness or compassion.

[snip]

... . No one was in my corner, telling me how to handle it. I was just thrown in the deep end and expected to get on with it. 

[snip]

So it's very hard for me to actually want to give validation/compassion/empathy to other people.

And the way this sequence of paragraphs is laid out ("When... . So" implies to me that there might be a connection between the end (not wanting to give validation to other people) and the beginning (growing up in your FOO, your father, having no one in your corner).

I'm not saying it's true, but I'm saying that what you posted made me think about this connection as much as it did about the 'general culture' of everybody outside your family. Which culture, obviously, might be like that too. In which case you got a double-whammy -- but the first part of the whammy might have had the most -- or at least the earliest -- effect on you. Part of that earlier effect might have been on how your emotions operate.

Just ruminating here on little data and hoping for the best. 

PP

[musicfan42]

PrettyPlease- You ask a lot of very tough questions. I honestly don't know how to answer them. I haven't analyzed my Family of Origin (FOO) to that extent before so I don't think this is the appropriate place to discuss this.

[PrettyPlease]

I haven't analyzed my Family of Origin (FOO) to that extent before so I don't think this is the appropriate place to discuss this.

Understood, I agree.