BPD and NPD comorbidity. Any tips?

[wishfulthinking]

Husband and I are going to MC.  During a visit he missed and I went to, MC talks to me frankly about uBPDh.  I had mentioned BPD in the phone conversation to set up an initial appt with the T and made sure he had dealt with it before since getting an unexperienced T in this area can make things worse from the stories here I've read.  T starts asking me questions and some I recognize as BPD related and some I start to wonder... . is he heading toward NPD?  After the end of his questioning, he tells me he thinks uBPDh has both.  It will be a very difficult path and (now) BPDh will need LOTS of therapy.  I have a lot to think about and am wanting some advice from those that have been there.

[Mazda]

I haven't been there, although my ex was comorbid.  I think your T is basically trying to gently tell you what my T and psych told me quite bluntly.  That combination is untreatable.  The core work needed to address BPD will not be undertaken because of the NPD... . they can't bare to look inside themselves.  It's not even a choice, it's a survival mechanism.  I am very sorry, but your T is trying to gently tell you that there is no hope.

[maxsterling]

from what I read, NPD and BPD have frequent overlaps of traits.  Having dated a pwBPD, and previously someone I strongly feel would be diagnosed NPD, the main difference is the self-image.  Many of the behaviors of the two women are the same, even the more bizarre unique behaviors - exactly the same.  But, the BPD knows there is something wrong, and has huge self image problems that she wants to fix but doesn't know how.  The NPD had self image problems, but only in comparing herself to her own image.  She thought she had to be the greatest/best, and her image issues were because she felt she wasn't the greatest/best and kept trying to push the bar higher.  She believes that she is already well on her way to being the greatest, and her reasons for not being the greatest are external.  So for her, nothing was wrong, at least nothing that someone else could help her with, because everyone else was already beneath her.  She would frequently tell me things like, "when I go out for lunch, it needs to be gourmet."  Or, "I only buy the best products."  I really see no hope for her, because I see no way for her listen to a therapist objectively, because she will automatically think she is better than the therapist

The BPD thinks she is the worst, and can't drag herself out of her self-defined bottom.  To her, everyone else is above her, and she sees no way of reaching that.  She thinks the whole world is criticizing her and out to get her.  She will trust therapists, provided she finds the right one who validates her and sympathizes with her issues.  The minute a therapist suggests she needs to do this or that to better herself (such as develop hobbies or exercise), she gets upset and suddenly paints the therapist black.  Her response: "How dare the therapist suggest I should walk more.  I want to walk more, but I can't because I am too depressed!"

To me, the NPD seems like another layer on top of BPD, because the way both women treated me and lived their lives was similar.  They both abused, they both try to control, they both disrespect boundaries, they both blame the world for their problems, they both had substance abuse problems, they both seemed to have a poor grasp of happiness and love. 

My feeling:  A pwNPD could improve provided they get the proper therapy (such as DBT), but just the fact that they have NPD means they will not be open to any therapy.  They just don't see anything wrong. 

[wishfulthinking]

Mazda and Maxsterling, thank you both very much.  I had my (our) scheduled appt with the T yesterday and the BPDh bailed again.  T said H only agreed to go because that put him back in control (what he feels is control, since I told him we were done unless he went).  Now that he feels that control is reestablished, he is going to find reasons not to go.  He said that my situation is not consistantly safe and that (surprising, coming from a Christian T) I should seriously consider the thoughts I've had on leaving.  He said that he is not going to recommend or advise that I end the marriage, because ultimately it is my choice and he won't sway anyone, but that considering the BPD/NPD and anger issues, it isn't a situation he can encourage me to stay in.  Especially considering H doesn't see anything wrong with his actions and feels justified in everything he does, no matter how ultimately wrong he was for his actions. 

Just for the sake of not making this any longer, I thank you both for your responses and wanted to let you know the T basically confirmed what you both said.

maxsterling, I had a difficult time with the image part of my H.  I was hesitant to see the NPD diagnosis because I couldn't see how it fit, especially considering my H can't hold a job or do anything that actually betters himself... . With your explanation, the part that said :She believes that she is already well on her way to being the greatest, and her reasons for not being the greatest are external... . H's reasons for not doing well in work is always due to external circumstances and never of any fault of his own. This summed things up for me, thank you.

[maxsterling]

@wishfulthinking-

Interesting that your T encouraged you to leave, or said it without actually saying that.  When I told my T that I was having difficulty communicating with my GF, and when I elaborated that she screams and hits, she replied "I can't advise you how to communicate with someone who screams at you."  I think she bites her tongue in most sessions, because she really wants to tell me to get the hell out of the relationship because it is hopeless, but doesn't say that for professional reasons, and instead beats around the bush. 

Regarding your last paragraph - Neither my current BPD girlfriend or my NPD ex could hold jobs.  My current girlfriend was telling me last night that she managed to work continuously for about 4 years prior to meeting me, although not at the same job.  She's never been able to hold a job for longer than a year - usually just a few weeks or months until she finds fault with the boss or coworkers, paints them black, and quits or is fired.  But even though she doesn't admit it openly to most people, deep down I know she views the problem as within herself, because she will open up to me about that.  It's a "What the hell is wrong with me, I'm 38 and don't have my crap together" type of thinking.

My NPD could not keep a job, but she was pretty good at assigning her issues to everyone else.  I don't think she ever considered for a second that it was her issue.  She was a teacher, got fired from one job for making inappropriate sexual comments to a child, which she denied and had excuses for.  She is in her mid 40s, and still living off her dad, and really sees nothing wrong with that because she has a list of reasons why she really isn't dependent on her dad or why he actually owes her.  Her dreams were always about luxury cars, having a business that made lots of money, and a particular type of lifestyle, but it was everyone else's fault (her dad, her ex husband) why she did not have that. 

[wishfulthinking]

Wow, your NPD could me my H.  He talks about how if someone would just walk up and give him 10,000 dollars his business would be soo successful.  His credit sucks, his truck is up for repo, and he is being sued by one of the construction jobs from last summer and is about to be sued from another that he took the material money and spent it so he can't do the job he's signed contract to do because he can't afford the materials.  He barely works at all and it's always someone else's fault as to why.  It's other people that caused the jobs to fail or stole his money milking the clock or made him spend it on cigarettes and stuff... . Ugh, so sick of it all.  I work 40 hours a week, at the same job 11 years.  I've paid all the bills the ENTIRE relationship.  He's given me around 300 cash and bought groceries twice (not large amounts and mostly stuff only he likes, he is a big snacker).  I loaned him over 7,000 for bills before we got married because he always promised bigger and better things, I didn't know it was all empty promises.  Sorry, you triggered a vent. LOL.

[delusionalxox]

'I think your T is basically trying to gently tell you what my T and psych told me quite bluntly.  That combination is untreatable.  The core work needed to address BPD will not be undertaken because of the NPD... . they can't bare to look inside themselves. '

My innate compassion/codependence would like to believe that no one is untreatable, but I think Maxda makes an excellent point here. NPD defences make it impossible to admit or even countenance fault.

My own ex would 'flip' back and forth bizarrely between BPD self-hate and NPD arrogance, blame and grandiosity, but the vulnerability could only show very briefly and the NPD traits would take over. He was astonishingly patronising, believes himself a 'pioneer' of his abstruse field of study, believes he has been cheated of the chance to be successful by various people who have 'let him down'.

I think part of my attraction to him is that I have the prized 'tenured post' in a university (not so great when you have the job, but he feels he has been unjustly robbed of the chance). He refused to do the 'donkey work' that wannabe academics have to do- teaching in various institutions while finishing PhD... he expected to live entirely off me while finishing in his own sweet time (it took him 5 years to finish... . not so bad I guess, but he did barely any teaching and spent a lot of the last year getting stoned, yet is 'urgent' he gets a job? etc etc).

I think he also has a hard time keeping jobs despite being very talented. He has lived off at least three women (his young ex who had a rich dad; me; and briefly, the girl he was cheating on me with this summer). He would blow up with rage when I asked for money back although I ended up spending about £13000 on him over the course of the relationship. Rage, including righteous moral outrage, is his defence. So when I want money back I am 'a materialist... . money is everything to you isn't it'... . etc. Even though it wasn't the money per se that bothered me it was the exploitation and disrespect.

While trying to win me back he briefly touched a vulnerable point and said he felt like a 'loser' who should be able to 'support his family'. He desperately wants to be a powerful patriarch but he is way, way from that. he's a talented, chaotic teenager despite being 37 now.

[wishfulthinking]

delusionalxox, take out academic and put in contruction and that is my life. 

"""My own ex would 'flip' back and forth bizarrely between BPD self-hate and NPD arrogance, blame and grandiosity, but the vulnerability could only show very briefly and the NPD traits would take over. He was astonishingly patronising, believes himself a 'pioneer' of his abstruse field of study, believes he has been cheated of the chance to be successful by various people who have 'let him down'."""

That is exactly what I deal with. To the letter.  I could have written it.

"""Rage, including righteous moral outrage, is his defence. So when I want money back I am 'a materialist... . money is everything to you isn't it'... . etc. Even though it wasn't the money per se that bothered me it was the exploitation and disrespect"""

I hear this ALL THE TIME.

"""said he felt like a 'loser' who should be able to 'support his family'. He desperately wants to be a powerful patriarch but he is way, way from that. """

He calls himself a loser constantly, I've never said it.  He says he doesn't feel like a man because he can't support, then in the next sentence blames it on EVERYONE else who took it from him or never lets him succeed.

[Surnia]

H wishfulthinking

Just recently I was wondering about you... .  

I think its great you have support from the MC counselor. As you mention MC can be a difficult path, and I am relieved that your counselor has a fast insight in your situation.

How do you feel right now?

[wishfulthinking]

Hi, Surnia.

Thank you, you are always so kind and thoughtful, full of good advice (even if we hesitate to take it like we should  ). 

Things went fairly smooth for a bit but as I stand up for myself, I find my anger from it all that I had buried is coming out and I am not backing down, I feel there is nothing to lose.  He is not liking it and reacting negatively.  I told him the other night I wanted a divorce after he was drunk and snotty and I was done being cussed at.  A fight ensued and I told him he has 2 weeks to find somewhere.  He doesn't believe I'm serious and he keeps talking (ranting, really) about how I hurt him and how we are both wrong and how we need to let things go and work on working things out, blah blah blah.  I'm quietly playing the game, while I figure out my plan.  I'm just not saying much at all to him.  I'm answering with yes, no, I don't know... . because I find if I allow myself much more, then I am the seething ball of hate, not him... . and I don't want to be that.  I just have so much anger. 

I like the T and I have a feeling it will end up being just me going since H has ditched the last 2 appts.  I was relieved when the T seemed to "get it".  Had H pegged very quickly.

[Surnia]

You are welcome, what the heck, also for the    part

I'm just not saying much at all to him.  I'm answering with yes, no, I don't know... .

Being short is sometimes a good path, specially with N parts.

I like the T and I have a feeling it will end up being just me going since H has ditched the last 2 appts.  I was relieved when the T seemed to "get it".

This is great.

Keep us posted, wft!

[delusionalxox]

oh lord wishful... . I got out... . but I feel at the moment that I have been partially destroyed by my 3 years with this man.

One terrible 'hook' was that in his moments of childlike vulnerability I would feel really really sorry for him. The next, the arrogant hypocritical hater would emerge and I would be slapped verbally and emotionally despite my attempts to help.

I  never thought he was a loser- I thought that he had excessive expectations of himself and others. But he projected his insecurities onto me. He constantly accused me of 'disrespect' and was also incredibly jealous. It all ended when he had an affair (for which he blamed me) and abandoned me when I was pregnant, I found out to go live with this woman (whom he dumped later, and complained to me about her 'immaturity' and how he had 'never promised her anything' etc etc  ).

Over time as he got more stressed, the NPD became stronger. There was more arrogance, hypocrisy and viciousness. The woman he moved in with seems to have been a total 'slave' type- cooked and cleaned for him, listened to  him moan about me, accepted not being a 'real girlfriend' until quite late on. I think that only someone who would accept total domination and criticism while also doing all the housework and paying for everything, could last with him. That is why despite being incredibly handsome, talented and interesting, all his girlfriends leave him.

With me because I challenged him to change, he became dangerous. Yours also sounds dangerous and I think you need to go asap.

[wishfulthinking]

Thanks again, delusionalxox.  I haven't dealt with the "replacement" issue yet.  Otherwise, yet again, your life is my life.  Only he's only had 1 of his girlfriends leave him from what I understand.  He's left the others, and they were many... . he is very attractive, also and I'm sure that played a part.  I'm no model, but some of the women I've seen that he dated are far from his level... . I guess you would say.  That one gf haunted him for a long time, too.  He was still hung up on her when I met him and he hadn't been with her in almost 7 years.  I wonder if her leaving him is the issue in that... . he said she was the only one besides his HS gf he ever really loved. 

Anyway, he definitely doesn't like when I stand up for myself or my daughter.  He becomes enraged and hateful.  It's horrible and I'm at the end of my rope.  I feel myself changing and I don't like it.