BPD's see themselves as evil? Really?

[CPWUSAF33]

I have read several books on BPD.  The latest being, "Loving Someone with BPD" by Shari Y. Manning.

My wife matches EXACTLY the traits of BPD to the letter.  When I read Shari Manning's book, I was amazed--it was like she was writing the entire book about my wife--it was so EXACTING that it was almost sureal.

Now, that being said, there is ONE thing that does not match.  On this site it says the following,

"People with BPD often have an unstable sense of who they are. That is, their self-image or sense of self often rapidly changes. They typically view themselves as evil or bad, and sometimes they may feel as if they don't exist at all. This unstable self-image can lead to frequent changes in jobs, friendships, goals, values and gender identity."

For this one, it seems to be opposite--my wife is contantly putting others down--and it is everyone else that is evil except her.  I am the evil one in her mind... .   She is much closer to displaying the traits of narcissism over seing herself as bad.  What am I not getting here?

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[Cloudy Days]

You don't always know what she is thinking or how she see's herself. She may very well see herself as evil, that's why she tries to find it in other people.

[oblivian2013]

It's called PROJECTING.

My wife saw herself as a bad mother, hence person. She eventually lost her three teenage kids to her ex, whom she called the devil.

I am not sure what name she uses for me now, but I am sure it is not flattering.

Projecting, next comes the FOG.

Be forewarned.

[CPWUSAF33]

I thought of the "PROJECTING" as you both proclaim.  She sure is good at it... . Quite convincing actually--if she would say to someone else what she says to me, she would convince them that I am evil.  She almost convices me! 

As you can imagine, I'm going through one of her hate spells right now.  All over something so minor that it wouldn't even be on the anger radar for most people.  She claims that is not the "minor infraction" it was the culmination of the failure I have been as a father/husband over the years that led up to the infraction... .   It's a long story; but, right now she has shut me out of her life and isolates herself in the spare bedroom.

To be honest part of me is enjoying the isolation.  But, eventually, she will come out and confront me with "her side of the story" that will paint me as the culprit in all of this.  And then, as always, the scenario she will present will actually makes sense if all of it were true.  And there I'll sit with nothing to say because I don't know how to defend that which is so skewed and bizzare while at the same time is plausible if it were true? 

I really dread the next encounter--I just don't think I can take this any more... . Leaving her seems like the only option that will set me free; but, I don't want to do that.  I want to get her help; but, she just does not see herself as having a problem.  It's the rest of the world that is the problem.

I'm venting a bit and rambling I know... . But, I really have no one to talk to and I don't know what to do! 

[PacifistMom]

I agree with other posters that this is projection. My upwBPD picks out the worst in everyone I care about (most especially me), and I know the entire foundation is his insecurities and fears about himself and others' perceptions of him.

To be honest part of me is enjoying the isolation.  But, eventually, she will come out and confront me with "her side of the story" that will paint me as the culprit in all of this.  And then, as always, the scenario she will present will actually makes sense if all of it were true.  And there I'll sit with nothing to say because I don't know how to defend that which is so skewed and bizzare while at the same time is plausible if it were true? 

I really dread the next encounter--I just don't think I can take this any more... . Leaving her seems like the only option that will set me free; but, I don't want to do that.  I want to get her help; but, she just does not see herself as having a problem.  It's the rest of the world that is the problem.

Word for word, me and my pwBPD. (Not the spare room, though, he wants to separate)

I'm curious - you said you have read several books - which were most useful for you?

[amazingcharis]

Now, that being said, there is ONE thing that does not match.  On this site it says the following,

"People with BPD often have an unstable sense of who they are. That is, their self-image or sense of self often rapidly changes. They typically view themselves as evil or bad, and sometimes they may feel as if they don't exist at all. This unstable self-image can lead to frequent changes in jobs, friendships, goals, values and gender identity."

For this one, it seems to be opposite--my wife is contantly putting others down--and it is everyone else that is evil except her.  I am the evil one in her mind... .   She is much closer to displaying the traits of narcissism over seing herself as bad.  What am I not getting here?

Hi CPWUSAF33,

For the longest time I felt the same way about my husband--that he didn't seem to ever exhibit feelings of viewing himself as evil, bad, etc.  But I was looking for an outward sign of something that's kept very inward and hidden.  However, the light bulb went on for me one day when he mentioned to me that he thought we should get back into counseling but he knew I never wanted to do that again.  That comment took me by surprise because I've always been the one that's pushed for counseling and the last time we had been in professional counseling, he told me that the counselors didn't know anything, their advise was straight out of hell, and that he'd never go to professional counselors again (they had been our second set of counselors).  Rather than argue the point, I simply told him that I wasn't sure why he thought I didn't want to have counseling, but I'd be very willing for us to get back into counseling.  He turned away from me, started to cry, and said, "Why do you keep calling me evil."  That took me even more by surprise because I'd never said anything to that effect or even had such a thought.  I tried to validate him by saying that I could see that he was upset and if someone thought I was evil, it would be very upsetting to me.  I then said, "I don't think you're evil.  Do you think you're evil?"  He went over the top vehemently defending that he wasn't evil.  That's when the light bulb lit.  He didn't need to convince me that he wasn't evil, but rather he was trying to convince himself that he wasn't evil; and the only reason he would do that is if he felt he was evil/bad/whatever.  So I think constantly putting others down, finding the negative/evil in everything and everyone, especially the person they're focusing on at the moment as "black", is their way of  pacifying their own unstable self-image.

[Grey Kitty]

First, in answer to your original question, it is common for a pwBPD to believe horrible things about herself. In the case of my wife, I believe that actually speaking to it rather than projecting it onto others in some form or other is a good sign--the closer they are to understanding those feelings, the better chance they have of coping with them or reexamining them.

But, eventually, she will come out and confront me with "her side of the story" that will paint me as the culprit in all of this.  And then, as always, the scenario she will present will actually makes sense if all of it were true.  And there I'll sit with nothing to say because I don't know how to defend that which is so skewed and bizzare while at the same time is plausible if it were true? 

Your relief at the quiet is good. Enjoy it

As for what to do when she starts to tell you "her side of the story."

Silence isn't the worst response. Trying to defend yourself just makes everything worse, if you haven't noticed that already.

The best response I've found was to simply announce that I wasn't able to listen to this anymore, and leave the conversation.  Remember--you don't owe her the chance to use you as an emotional punching bag... . and that is all she will do, even if it is in a calm tone of voice.

[shinedog]

I've just recently discovered BPD and have been reading various websites and forums. For me initially discovering this disorder was a little uplifting. Not really being able to determine why someone acts a certain way and just chalking it up to "she's just crazy" didn't seem like an appropriate answer, or even worse "it must be me".

Do they see themselves as evil?

Every circumstance is probably a little different and to what degree they see themselves as evil or bad. To make that even more difficult to what level do they open that door to you to see inside.

My girlfriend of a little over 2 years is definitely BPD. A lot of what I thought was a drug addiction and then afterward residual effects of withdraw and coping with addition. Little did I know addiction was only a symptom of her BPD. Now that I've learned of BPD and like I said it's only been in the past few days I've been trying to learn everything I can and reflect on my own past experiences. If you really look back and reflect and if you really listened and paid attention you've seen it. They let you know what they think of themselves.

My girlfriend is notorious for talking badly about people. She doesn't like anyone. They are all awful and bad. Again "Projecting", it's not those other people she doesn't even know a lot of them. She is also a picker, by this I mean if she has a blemish on her face she will dig and dig at it until it is a festering, bleeding sore. Again, early on I thought it was addiction. Now it's more of a self image issue. She doesn't feel good about herself. I've never seen it addressed, but it literally will take her hours to get ready to do something, a 2 hour shower, 2 hours for makeup, 50 outfit changes and yet she still doesn't feel put together. I think this once again leads to self-image issues. She's always talking about Karma, honestly I don't even think she knows what Karma is. I think the Karma reference is a good and bad self image thing as well.

Lastly, I can look back to a few rare instances when it was said. Usually, during an argument or more likely during a makeup period where I wasn't going to take blame but she was ready to be let back in. I've found those periods are usually the most truth revealing because if they have to take accountability and boundaries are set they have to then be honest with themselves. In my case those times are usually met with a lot of emotion, but at the same time are really limited and brief. If you listen during those times you may hear a few things. I've heard "I'm a bad person", "I hate myself", "I'm an evil person". All the things that are discussed literally word for word. I didn't know what they meant at the time, but it's a lot clearer now. If I can recommend anything, stay calm and listen, watch and observe what's really going on not what you perceive as going on. If you're not a BPD you're going to find it difficult to think like a BPD. Don't read into the reactions and dig a little deeper cross-referenced with what you know about BPD. You'll begin to see exactly how he/she really feels about themselves.

[hergestridge]

My BPDw does not see herself as evil at all. But she's got this rather twisted world view where she tends to pick on people that are too "nice" (i e have high moral standards) because they seem to provoke her somehow, and this leaves her in the "bad guy" ("bad girl"?) seat wether she likes it or not.

She also loathes succesful people and she assumes their success is undeserved for some reason. Same thing goes for people who are too beautiful. And rich. Or people who can sing. Or paint. You get it... .

She saves her sympathy for drunks, homeless and illegal immigrants. And unemployed people.

So what has this got to do with good and evil?

Well, talking from personal experience, every person with a criminal record that I have ever spoken too (and I have spoken to quite a few in my profession) has held this peculiar world view that people should "get off their high horses" and loosen up a bit, relax and not be so judgemental ("why do they keep bringing up that old hit?" and they all feel that kinship all the mistreated outsiders and misfits of this world.

It's often disguised as some sort of pseudo-socialist worldview, but in reality it's just a person trying to explain their personal shortcoming as other people's problems.

As long as you go on thinking like this the only thing you acheive is scare, intimidate and confuse those who try to live by high moral standards, make the very same people look bad (frequently badmouthing them, "goody two-shoes" etc). You also spread a lot of envy, fear, jealosy and doubt. I don't know what is if not evil.

[CPWUSAF33]

I agree with other posters that this is projection. My upwBPD picks out the worst in everyone I care about (most especially me), and I know the entire foundation is his insecurities and fears about himself and others' perceptions of him.

To be honest part of me is enjoying the isolation.  But, eventually, she will come out and confront me with "her side of the story" that will paint me as the culprit in all of this.  And then, as always, the scenario she will present will actually makes sense if all of it were true.  And there I'll sit with nothing to say because I don't know how to defend that which is so skewed and bizzare while at the same time is plausible if it were true? 

I really dread the next encounter--I just don't think I can take this any more... . Leaving her seems like the only option that will set me free; but, I don't want to do that.  I want to get her help; but, she just does not see herself as having a problem.  It's the rest of the world that is the problem.

Word for word, me and my pwBPD. (Not the spare room, though, he wants to separate)

I'm curious - you said you have read several books - which were most useful for you?

PacifistMom:  Sorry I did not reply earlier--I just now saw your post.  The book that seemed the best to me so far is, "Loving Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder"  It is by Dr. Sharin (I forgot the last name).  I can give you the last name tomorrow.  The book is at work.  It was recommended that I do NOT let my BPD wife see the book.  It is written for the "normal" person (I use that term loosely)--I am probably far from normal as much as I have been beaten down over the years.

[CPWUSAF33]

Now, that being said, there is ONE thing that does not match.  On this site it says the following,

"People with BPD often have an unstable sense of who they are. That is, their self-image or sense of self often rapidly changes. They typically view themselves as evil or bad, and sometimes they may feel as if they don't exist at all. This unstable self-image can lead to frequent changes in jobs, friendships, goals, values and gender identity."

For this one, it seems to be opposite--my wife is contantly putting others down--and it is everyone else that is evil except her.  I am the evil one in her mind... .   She is much closer to displaying the traits of narcissism over seing herself as bad.  What am I not getting here?

Hi CPWUSAF33,

For the longest time I felt the same way about my husband--that he didn't seem to ever exhibit feelings of viewing himself as evil, bad, etc.  But I was looking for an outward sign of something that's kept very inward and hidden.  However, the light bulb went on for me one day when he mentioned to me that he thought we should get back into counseling but he knew I never wanted to do that again.  That comment took me by surprise because I've always been the one that's pushed for counseling and the last time we had been in professional counseling, he told me that the counselors didn't know anything, their advise was straight out of hell, and that he'd never go to professional counselors again (they had been our second set of counselors).  Rather than argue the point, I simply told him that I wasn't sure why he thought I didn't want to have counseling, but I'd be very willing for us to get back into counseling.  He turned away from me, started to cry, and said, "Why do you keep calling me evil."  That took me even more by surprise because I'd never said anything to that effect or even had such a thought.  I tried to validate him by saying that I could see that he was upset and if someone thought I was evil, it would be very upsetting to me.  I then said, "I don't think you're evil.  Do you think you're evil?"  He went over the top vehemently defending that he wasn't evil.  That's when the light bulb lit.  He didn't need to convince me that he wasn't evil, but rather he was trying to convince himself that he wasn't evil; and the only reason he would do that is if he felt he was evil/bad/whatever.  So I think constantly putting others down, finding the negative/evil in everything and everyone, especially the person they're focusing on at the moment as "black", is their way of  pacifying their own unstable self-image.

Thank-you "AmazingChairs"--that was VERY helpful to read!

[CPWUSAF33]

First, in answer to your original question, it is common for a pwBPD to believe horrible things about herself. In the case of my wife, I believe that actually speaking to it rather than projecting it onto others in some form or other is a good sign--the closer they are to understanding those feelings, the better chance they have of coping with them or reexamining them.

But, eventually, she will come out and confront me with "her side of the story" that will paint me as the culprit in all of this.  And then, as always, the scenario she will present will actually makes sense if all of it were true.  And there I'll sit with nothing to say because I don't know how to defend that which is so skewed and bizzare while at the same time is plausible if it were true? 

Your relief at the quiet is good. Enjoy it

As for what to do when she starts to tell you "her side of the story."

Silence isn't the worst response. Trying to defend yourself just makes everything worse, if you haven't noticed that already.

The best response I've found was to simply announce that I wasn't able to listen to this anymore, and leave the conversation.  Remember--you don't owe her the chance to use you as an emotional punching bag... . and that is all she will do, even if it is in a calm tone of voice.

Thanks GreyKitty--that is sound advice.

[CPWUSAF33]

Shinedog and hegestridge:

Thank-you for posting--I am a bit overwhelmed right now and I can't be at the computer.  I just want you to know I appreciate you both posting on this topic very much.  Your insight is HELPFUL!

CPWUSAF33

[waverider]

My partner hates herself and thinks of herself as a bad person. This has gone through 3 stages in our RS.

First I was her savior and by mirroring me she believed I would release her from this self loathing.

When that failed she went into complete denial of this inner feeling by projecting onto me and reacted proactively to any perceived discovery/accusation that she may be at fault in anyway. This let to the high conflict stage.

The stage we are at now is a result of me changing my ways due to what I have learned here. This has lowered her defenses and levels of conflict in general. So now she can own the disorder and we can talk openly now, allowing her to openly admit the self loathing.

The point is pwBPD erect facades to cover up their real selves, it is this "facade" that we end up arguing with, which is just a waste of energy. You have to get behind this facade to have any chance of understanding what is going on. People who have genuine self confidence in themselves dont construct facades.

[Foreverhopefull]

My husband compares himself to the black plague. Most days, he tells me that if he never existed the whole world would be better off, that he has ruined my life and his death will be a blessing for me.

He refuses to let anyone get close to him, and refuses to understand that some people love him unconditionally.

It's part of his BPD.

[oblivian2013]

Shinedog said: "She's always talking about Karma, honestly I don't even think she knows what Karma is. I think the Karma reference is a good and bad self image thing as well."

This really hit home. My wife frequently said she didn't understand why she had so much bad karma in her life.

I didn't know what to say at the time. Now that I understand the dynamics of personality disorders I know why: Because you first tell the people closest to you that you love them, and then you proceed to treat them like crap. Go figure!

She also had a extreme interest in the after-life and reincarnation.

Who knows, maybe they were sent here to plague us for our own good. When we were first dating, I referred to her as "My Angel". She was. Then what happened?

I am starting to see this as a spiritual journey as well.

[hergestridge]

My thoughts wandered back to this thread... .

I think that most people who do what we see as evil deeds are would fend of the idea that they are evil in any way. I think that some of the "evil" actually comes from the things those people do to rid themselves of guilt and shame.

In fact my BPPwife has given me a fantastic display of how "evil" happens.

She used to be mean to me. But at one point - nine years into our rs - she became so mean to me that she decided she couldn't say "I'm sorry" any more. So she decided to push back the blame onto me instead, making me believe I had deserved it. I still can't get my head around how cruel that is.

This was over ten years ago now, and we have talked about it. She has admitted that she understod instantly that she had crossed a line and been abusive to me, but couldn't deal with it. So she decided to avoid "the talk" at any cost.

And what is behind the "evil" facade really? The prisons are full "bad guys" (and girls). Grown up people unable to take grown up resonsibilites, much like our BPD partners.