How borderline was your borderline?

[fromheeltoheal]

So we go through what we go through in painful relationships, we find this site through Google or whatever, we read articles and story after story that very closely echo our own experiences, the lights come on, we find companionship and connection in shared suffering, we feel like we're not alone anymore, people understand, and we really weren't crazy.  That doesn't happen by accident, and we're all here for a reason, the same reason.

And then as we learn about BPD, sometimes getting a PhD in BPD, we still aren't qualified to diagnose the disorder, but we talk about 'borderlines' and 'nons' constantly, the dichotomy of 'us' and 'them', and of course on the Leaving board bash the evil borderline, borne out of pain, anger and abuse.

Although the truth is some of our exes have been diagnosed with the disorder by mental health professionals, most are undiagnosed but exhibit extreme traits, and some exhibit lesser or periodic traits.

So I've been thinking lately does it really matter?  :)oing our own diagnosis and chastising the evil borderline makes us feel better, lets us play victim, we were victimized although we were volunteers.  I don't know if creating that extreme dichotomy really serves us, at least it should have limits; I was totally incompatible with my ex and she was a raging btch, a liar, and a manipulator, no doubt, along with a host of other charming 'qualities', but at some point, if I go too far, I end up blaming everything on the disorder, which takes the focus away from me.  I don't have a personality disorder but I definitely have narcissistic traits, and I'm at a point where it's much more important to focus on me.  She's been gone for a long time, who knows what she's up too and I really don't care, probably time to spend more time on the Personal Inventory board and the boatload of resources available to us there.

This all came about because I had a meeting in a beach town near me this morning, and on the way back I took my time, listened to some tunes in the car, and for the first time in a long time I got that stab of hurt that I miss that beautiful girl and the good times we had when it was good.  That lasted 30 seconds maybe, then I remembered all the crap and why I left, and the whole thing played out in about a minute.  Someone said on a thread the other day that the reason a borderline treats us the way they do is because they consider themselves unlovable and not worthy of the unconditional love we offered, and the bashing is their not so subtle way of telling us that; that totally rang true for me, and had I listened to what she was really saying under all the bluster, I could have saved us both a lot of pain.  Well, me at least.  So maybe we were just incompatible people trying to find love and create a future together, it didn't work, and that happens all the time, personality disorder or not.

Today's musings, thanks for listening.

[seeking balance]

 I don't have a personality disorder but I definitely have narcissistic traits, and I'm at a point where it's much more important to focus on me.

yeah, me too - I think most of us who found ourselves mesmerized in the light of that idealization can take a good long, hard look in the mirror.

 So maybe we were just incompatible people trying to find love and create a future together, it didn't work, and that happens all the time, personality disorder or not.

wow - this might be the very definition of indifference 

[Mazda]

From heel,

You know I am a huge fan of your writings, however, I must say that I disagree with the perspective of us being incompatible with BPDs.  Perhaps our codependency and our own issues kept us in the relationship for longer, but a non co-dependent would not be mor compatible, they would just leave.  Who is actually compatible with a non treated or undiagnosed BPD?  I can't think of anyone other than an NPD, and that's only because I have read that elsewhere.

Quite frankly I take it as a compliment that I am not compatible in this instance.

[fromheeltoheal]

From heel,

You know I am a huge fan of your writings, however, I must say that I disagree with the perspective of us being incompatible with BPDs.  Perhaps our codependency and our own issues kept us in the relationship for longer, but a non co-dependent would not be mor compatible, they would just leave.  Who is actually compatible with a non treated or undiagnosed BPD?  I can't think of anyone other than an NPD, and that's only because I have read that elsewhere.

Quite frankly I take it as a compliment that I am not compatible in this instance.

Yeah, me too Mazda.  I'm swinging the other way lately, thinking that we have more in common with a person with a personality disorder than not, we're all imperfect humans floating on a rock in the middle of nowhere, and the extreme dichotomy we create here has it's limits, and eventually doesn't serve us.

I agree that it's a compliment to be incompatible with a borderline, and someone who is might have an equal personality disorder that is compatible with that pathology.  I felt extremely compatible with mine during the idealization stage, but that didn't translate to a sustainable relationship once the honeymoon was over and we only recycled once, so maybe that's a testament my own health, and my main traits at the time were susceptibility, loneliness and naivety.  I'm also remembering that I've been in relationships with pretty healthy women, but it just didn't work, a basic incompatibility, and I'm trending to putting my borderline ex more in that group now, because it feels better, and it needs to be all me now.

[Mazda]

From heel,

I'm glad you are moving along so well in your healing process.  I think you're almost at the acceptance phase.

I think voldy was so cruel to me that I will never get to the point of thinking of him as an incompatible ex, he will always be the bstard that screwed me over, but he's more becoming the one I had a close encounter and lucky escape from.  I guess my shift is coming from thinking of him as the victim (of his illness, which he played to very well despite refusing to seek any help) and thinking of myself as the victim in this.  I think self compassion is the only way I can move forward, as I don't think forgiveness for him is something I am capable of, nor does he deserve.

[Murbay]

My exBPDw was undiagnosed until we started therapy. T saw her first, then both of us and then he stopped seeing her altogether. He diagnosed her as NPD/BPD and still to this day, considers her a very dangerous person.

I survived that encounter, thought I had healed enough only to walk into a relationship with a Diagnosed pwBPD. They were both very different in many senses but shared a lot of core traits.

It has hurt more the 2nd time around, not just because of how quick the replacement has come about while I was very much in love with her but because I know I didn't take the time to heal fully from the first time around so it's opened both sets of wounds.

I am thankful for both experiences though because it has taught me a lot about myself and what I need to focus on. I wasn't as co-dependent 2nd time around but did feel myself sliding that way.

For those who say pwBPD have nothing to offer, I would say, they teach us valuable lessons about ourselves and even if they can't change they give us the gift of being able to address our own issues.

[love4meNOTu]

My ex husband had seven of the nine criteria.

Our marriage counselor approached me after the fact, said my ex was a threat to me and that I should exit the marriage as fast as possible. He did not call him BPD, he said he had a personality disorder. I researched, talked with my own therapist and she confirmed our suspicions.

I didn't need them to tell me though, I know him so well, and I knew from the start there was something very wrong with him.

God how I wish I had found out about BPD before I married him, and saved us all from so much pain. I am very thankful that it was only 2 years of my life, it could have been much worse if I had been deeply codependent.

L

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm sorry you went through that Mazda; the maladaptive coping mechanisms of the disorder sure can show up as cruelty towards us.

I think self compassion is the only way I can move forward, as I don't think forgiveness for him is something I am capable of, nor does he deserve.

Yes!  Compassion, validation and empathy are what were missing.  And remember forgiveness is for us, not for them, and that forgiveness is part of self compassion.  I see my ex as a sick person and not a bad one, someone who was doing her best with the very limited and maladaptive skills she had, and I forgive her for what she did, I'm sure she's still doing it to someone else, and she's the biggest loser in the end, always alone, when what she really wants is love just like the rest of us, although she has no idea how to get it.

[Mazda]

I know heel... . and I tried to find it in my heart to forgive, but I just can't do it.  I think I will just get to the point where I don't care that he exists.

[Perfidy]

From h2h... Your message here is what I tell most people. Focus on your self. I agree completely with you in this. As far as just two people and compatibility issues ... . Well... . I guess that might be indifference or possibly denial in that BPD was a factor. The pwBPD that was attached to me was dx'ed BPD and an addict. My own observations... . psychotic. She was dx before the addiction started according to her. She was also on meds when I met her although not going to therapy at the time or ever during the r/s. Furthermore, she was also incompatible with the other fifty guys before me. After me I'm not interested in her and I am reaching towards indifference. I do accept my responsibility for my part in staying. I'm not a victim. I've been alone with my PTSD for almost a year now. She is no longer in my life and nothing about me is her fault. Had I known how destructive my choice to be with her was going to be, I would not have made it. I made the choice and I do consider it to be a learning experience that I put almost eight years into. I'm glad it's over. I'm glad I wasn't compatible.

[love4meNOTu]

^^^ word up Perfidy!

my ex husband left me so emotionally, physically and financially drained that I had nothing left for the people who really love me. It's taken me months to get back to normal.

Never again will I sacrifice myself for another. That's a lesson I've had to relearn time and time again during my life, but guess what, this time it's stuck and I exited my marriage as fast as I possible could. I am LUCKY I got away without further damage.

Life is a blessing, and I will never take for granted my safety and security ever again. Just to be safe... from abuse... . in my own home... . there is such peace in that.

L

[Waifed]

... . at the end of the day all of the analysis that I have done doesn't mean much. The fact that her actions trump any diagnosis is all I really need. Unfortunately, I still have to remind myself of this sometimes, as if the pain of it all shouldn't remain front and center.

They are bad people. It may not be their fault but facts are facts. Anyone who has a total lack of respect for others and is only concerned about themselves doesn't deserve to reap the benefits of socially integrating with others. It is unfortunate that they do and that others must pay for it while the pwBPD continues to leave a path of destruction that causes great suffering for those in their way.

[myself]

My ex isn't diagnosed but it's the closest I've come to understanding what I've gone through. She exhibits every classic feature. I wish she didn't but she does. I know it's due to disordered thinking, and like you heeltoheal, have also admitted that we're on two different paths in life and I'm ok with that. I fought it for a long time because I didn't want it to be true. Accepting this has been sad, but a relief.

I end up blaming everything on the disorder, which takes the focus away from me

Blaming it only on the disorder takes responsibility away from the PERSONwBPD, which not only takes the focus off of ourselves but off of them. There's a lack of honesty when accountability is swept aside. It's one of the major reasons these r/s don't last. Is being truthful something we learn or were wired for/against? It's not just a disorder. People make decisions. Actions have consequences. Everybody knows this. I see how my own have played out, and am learning from their lessons.

I'm at a point where it's much more important to focus on me.

That's where it's at. Let's all get there.

[Waifed]

From h2h... Your message here is what I tell most people. Focus on your self. I agree completely with you in this. As far as just two people and compatibility issues ... . Well... . I guess that might be indifference or possibly denial in that BPD was a factor. The pwBPD that was attached to me was dx'ed BPD and an addict. My own observations... . psychotic. She was dx before the addiction started according to her. She was also on meds when I met her although not going to therapy at the time or ever during the r/s. Furthermore, she was also incompatible with the other fifty guys before me. After me I'm not interested in her and I am reaching towards indifference. I do accept my responsibility for my part in staying. I'm not a victim. I've been alone with my PTSD for almost a year now. She is no longer in my life and nothing about me is her fault. Had I known how destructive my choice to be with her was going to be, I would not have made it. I made the choice and I do consider it to be a learning experience that I put almost eight years into. I'm glad it's over. I'm glad I wasn't compatible.

Mine was a waif that showed very few signs the first year and a half. Their were some minor red flags but I was having fun after getting out of a long marriage. I chalked up most of it as her not being ready to commit as she was also coming out of a a long relationship. Her quietness hid much of the dysfunction. She seemed shy and innocent. She was intelligent but not tons of common sense. It was cute. I enjoyed teaching her and providing her the better things in life (my CoD issues!). I felt like I was duped. She had to know she had a problem. I admit my issues (that were hidden in my subconscious) played a part. The funny thing is I went out with a woman as I started the relationship that was very likely borderline (she told me she loved me and stripped naked and spread eagle on my bed on the first date). I knew she was crazy and I ran!  You live and you learn. I am better than her. I know it and she knows it.

[NoCRV]

My uBPDex showed 9/9 out of the traits at some point in time.  I know it is spectrum disorder but they were all present at sometime or the other.  I don't blame her for the toxic relationship, we both unknowingly played our parts.

[fromheeltoheal]

I do accept my responsibility for my part in staying. I'm not a victim. I've been alone with my PTSD for almost a year now. She is no longer in my life and nothing about me is her fault.

Love it Perfidy!   

[GuiltHaunted]

Mine was a waif that showed very few signs the first year and a half. Their were some minor red flags but I was having fun after getting out of a long marriage. I chalked up most of it as her not being ready to commit as she was also coming out of a a long relationship. Her quietness hid much of the dysfunction. She seemed shy and innocent. She was intelligent but not tons of common sense. It was cute. I enjoyed teaching her and providing her the better things in life (my CoD issues!). I felt like I was duped. She had to know she had a problem.

It is my story too, pretty much... . She is uBPD.

In addition, mine was taking antidepressant (for years) as we met, had a 10 years of therapy behind her, and was once committed in a mental institution. She hid that she took medication until almost a year into the relationship. I convinced her to stop (and frankly, in retrospect, they didn't make much difference), because I don't think she was depressed at that point anymore).

I never know what they might have diagnosed during her treatment. During our relationship, never saw her as a "sick" girl, and never dug into it. She told me that she had had a severe depression. I know BPD often is mistaken for something else. Like e.g. if the BPD has caused a depression, then the depression is diagnosed, instead of the root cause, which in that case would be the BPD. Correct me if I am wrong... .

As to your last sentence:

"She had to know she had a problem"

Mine would often tell me:

"there is something wrong with me, I don't know why I act the way I do"

To which I would reply:

"nonsense, you are a completely normal girl, who just had some bad experiences"

Before we split up, her father died. During that time, the child of a friend of her was diagnosed ADHD. She started reading a lot of ADHD and was convinced she was suffering from that too. Again I told her it was nonsense. As far as I know ADHD also has a lot in common with BPD.

I don't know that my ex is BPD. But I sure know that something is wrong with her! My biggest mistake is that I never realized it during relationship! Must have been pretty terrible for her too, to be overridden by me, when she feels something is wrong. At the time I just though she was severely PMS! 

[fromheeltoheal]

For those who say pwBPD have nothing to offer, I would say, they teach us valuable lessons about ourselves and even if they can't change they give us the gift of being able to address our own issues.

Absolutely Murbay.  The motivation to grow and deal with my own stuff, pain being the best motivator once again, is a gift of a relationship with a borderline, and they do serve a purpose. I've probably grown several years in the last year, didn't know I was signing up for that at the time, but I'll take it.

[fromheeltoheal]

Blaming it only on the disorder takes responsibility away from the PERSONwBPD, which not only takes the focus off of ourselves but off of them. There's a lack of honesty when accountability is swept aside. It's one of the major reasons these r/s don't last. Is being truthful something we learn or were wired for/against? It's not just a disorder. People make decisions. Actions have consequences. Everybody knows this. I see how my own have played out, and am learning from their lessons.

Oh yes myself.  If only or exes took responsibility for their actions and were accountable.  My ex knew that intellectually, but was nowhere near capable of practicing it.  Her emotions were just too strong, and being open and honest with me would have caused her to feel great shame at her shortcomings, so instead she had perfected lying and blame over the course of decades, it worked for her, in the limited way she was functioning.  Sure holding her accountable would have been ideal, but tolerating that was impossible for her; I'm going back to incompatible, sorry, gotta go sweetheart, and I use the term loosely.

[myself]

It's so different when we're accountable than when we're not. I hold myself to that as much as my ex or anyone. She and I both shot laser beams at each other, and we both held mirrors to deflect them. The relationship paid the price. I'm thankful she held me accountable for things that were really mine, not her projections. I wish her well. We had incompatible intentions, and different needs, so our time together ended.

[Ironmanrises]

You mention being incompatible. For me, i was incompatible with my previous exes prior to my exUBPDgf, and the difference was, both parties came to that conclusion. We agreed whether bitterly or not, it just wasnt going to work. There was closure involved. With my exUBPDgf, there was no such thing. Her disorder, even though undiagnosed, i experienced so much of it at close range that i dont need a proper diagnosis to tell me there was something severely wrong with her. I saw all of it. In fact, i saw too much. From begining, to frightly discard. Times 2. Times 3 if I include friendship phase, in which she discarded as well even before the relationship started. When she wasnt intimately close to me as a lover and as friendship deepened, she was a lovely human being. I was incompatible with the other side. The side summoned upon the day of trigger. That.

[laelle]

9/9

[growing_wings]

 I don't have a personality disorder but I definitely have narcissistic traits, and I'm at a point where it's much more important to focus on me.

yeah, me too - I think most of us who found ourselves mesmerized in the light of that idealization can take a good long, hard look in the mirror.

 So maybe we were just incompatible people trying to find love and create a future together, it didn't work, and that happens all the time, personality disorder or not.

wow - this might be the very definition of indifference 

i couldnt agree more. She offered me a mirror view, i saw through my interaction with er what i failed to see all my life so far. there are days where i feel so grateful i want to go and hug her and thank her (yes excuse to see her perhaps).

i think is part of the recovery to victimize ourselves tho. I am trying hard to detach from my own addition to drama, but it does not happen overnight. My T showed me how the drama cycle works with the dynamics between Rescuer / victim/ prosecutor, and how this dynamics existed in my relationship with my ex from BOTH sides, not hers only... . at the beginning i identified myself with the rescuer/victim only (poor me, as if really) then i realized i played the prosecutor too, in different ways vs. hers and i want to think a lot less intense and violent as she took it to the extremes of extremes, but i played and switch these roles with her a LOT.

My T allowed me to see i am too addicted to drama, that is why we got on well for quite a while. i am trying hard to break that pattern. I am working hard at it.

but in a nutshell, without her i would not have recognized this pattern in my life, for that, i am very grateful for. i can re-build myself better. Still hurts see me being replaced, but i need to work in my own self esteem as well... .   etc.etc.

great post from heeltoheal

[Changingman]

The uBPDxgf was of the scale.

No suicide attempts, but absolute self harm drinking. Always saying with the way she lived her life she would have an early death.

4 years were spent trying to get her better, lose some of her more destructive ways, her sadness/euthoria, anger, anxiety, psychotic episodes under stress, buckling under any perceived bad judgement of her, her constant ' outside ' feeling, the odd and constant trouble with family and friends, her compulsive needs that were always mine to deal with, the overwhelming stress breakdowns where she would lose all control and cry, plead and beg me to come home and take over responsibility, my work suffered terribly from her crisis. Hypersexual but no true intimacy, very jokey about feelings, unable to be out in public for extended periods without getting nervious and drinking and drugs till she dropped ( literally ) and her face a sieving malestrom of frantic emotion ( had to take her home, shocking for others to see )

She is off the scale BPD. Not a dought, thought she was basically a hot beauty with a heart of gold and some addiction issues.

The heart of gold was mine, she was mirroring.


Vanity and the modern boy

I really thought I was getting her to a better place and she was getting better at handeling her life choices and emotions. I was making better choices, working hard and feeling ' charged ' again.

This 'thing' that kept appearing in our RS!

Every once in a while odd intense behaviours would happen, little things, meaningless, perdantic, crazy intense held in anger about nothing ( using the wrong pan to cook ), a glance at me full of hatred only to disappear as she looked away and his it, emotional infidelities begain, back and forth. Violence towards me started but I would have none of it, realised later I had unwittingly blocked her punching me ( she was tall and athletic )

This was all tempered by times of drunken euphoria, laughter (me) and sexual playfulness.

More and more this all became darker,

Drunken euphoria became drunken madness, I can still see the cracked laughter and seesaw madness she revealed. The sex turned darker prostitutes were asked for (no), sex clubs were mentioned, sex itself became much more violent.

Everything started out sexy Disney and got slowly twisted out of shape and corrupted into crazy darkness. Like being in a romance movie and realising it was ' Carrie '. The blood was awful, stuff I'll never forget... . accidents apparently.


I was always left trying to manage the fall out, keep her crazy contained... . and it was on the psychopathic scale. I kept this up till we were in the best place we had been since we met, her dreams coming true... . I had done it, achieved something for her she had longed for for 15 years. She started hinting about marriage, I looked for a ring... . The crazy happened again, careless unwanted pregnancy, I had been keeping an eye on her contraceptive injections since we started dating. I realised this was serious and she was so odd about it, she was destroying everything we had built and achieved with carelessness. I put my foot down about responsibility... . than went well.

A six month campaign of cover up, lies and sadistic infidelity. Phoning and texting me

Clues that I would later understand. I was there in that filth in her head, she enjoyed it.

At the end Dogs lost to the world, 'friendships' discarded, history rewritten, anger and denial, her facade crumbling before me... . all revealed... . breathtaking!

And Love?

Not a drop, nothing

I don't mean for me ( I was now just in her way ) I don't mean for her dogs ( they weren't even a worry for her )

No I mean

Nothing

The empty orchestra stopped,

the lap dance was over.

The deathly drunken burlesque was no more.

And never was

I have left out much from this post, it was worst but

When you ask me about me compatability, I laugh.

You sound as cold as love. I will take my time with my heart.

It's more precious and rare than I had realised


Damn I loved those dogs

[growing_wings]

The heart of gold was mine, she was mirroring.

CM this is an interesting sentence... . can you expand more what you mean please?

[fromheeltoheal]

Great post Changingman, it reads like a stream of consciousness, very engaging, and I'm sorry you went through that.

Yes, arriving at incompatibility is cold, a cold indifference, a cooling, freezing really, of the passion I once felt.  An unsustainable passion based on fantasy both ways, something that needed to be frozen to death, for my own good.  It takes what it takes, it's been a long slog for me, and it's best to take all the time we need; heart healing can't be hurried.

[Changingman]

The heart of gold was mine, she was mirroring.

CM this is an interesting sentence... . can you expand more what you mean please?

When I met her I was in a mild depression, had broken up amicably with a girl. The recession had hit the economy and I spent my savings surviving. When I met the BPD I was surprised she was so interested in me. Blah blah

When things went odd I always thought of how she wanted to be with me and how I had nothing to give at the time.

As bad as it got that stayed with me

After we ended and I saw her truely naked for the first time and understood the disorder

I returned to that thought and realised, the gold digger was looking for pure gold

Love

I've always felt it, it's like heat from me.

My children's mum has BPD, and the children feel love because of me

The ability to love is not universal.

People with BPD are attracted to the qualities of a person who can fill their ridiculous needs.

Gold does not rust

A heart of gold does not turn to rust, it can love, have loyalty, honour

She wanted to be loved and loving and learn the ability to love, she saw me with my kids and wanted in. That was the payload for her. When she mirrored me a huge change came over her life, friends, success and someone to care for her.

Slowly her crazy came out and she began to see that she was incapable of love. This led to hatred of me. To the planned destruction of me. I'm still here and I still have a Heart of gold, I'm more aware of it, it must be protected honoured and respected by me.

She has lost all friends from that period and is now poisoning any friendsandlovers she thinks she has.

This is so sad, a life time of looking in the mirror and trying to paint and dye and pierce yourself into something else. So she doesn't feel revulsion from her own image. Sexy is one way

[Changingman]

Great post Changingman, it reads like a stream of consciousness, very engaging, and I'm sorry you went through that.

Yes, arriving at incompatibility is cold, a cold indifference, a cooling, freezing really, of the passion I once felt.  An unsustainable passion based on fantasy both ways, something that needed to be frozen to death, for my own good.  It takes what it takes, it's been a long slog for me, and it's best to take all the time we need; heart healing can't be hurried.

Amen brother

[growing_wings]

thanks CM... makes sense. mmmmhhh similar stuff happened to mine... . interesting ... thanks for sharing!

[Ironmanrises]

The heart of gold was mine, she was mirroring.

CM this is an interesting sentence... . can you expand more what you mean please?

When I met her I was in a mild depression, had broken up amicably with a girl. The recession had hit the economy and I spent my savings surviving. When I met the BPD I was surprised she was so interested in me. Blah blah

When things went odd I always thought of how she wanted to be with me and how I had nothing to give at the time.

As bad as it got that stayed with me

After we ended and I saw her truely naked for the first time and understood the disorder

I returned to that thought and realised, the gold digger was looking for pure gold

Love

I've always felt it, it's like heat from me.

My children's mum has BPD, and the children feel love because of me

The ability to love is not universal.

People with BPD are attracted to the qualities of a person who can fill their ridiculous needs.

Gold does not rust

A heart of gold does not turn to rust, it can love, have loyalty, honour

She wanted to be loved and loving and learn the ability to love, she saw me with my kids and wanted in. That was the payload for her. When she mirrored me a huge change came over her life, friends, success and someone to care for her.

Slowly her crazy came out and she began to see that she was incapable of love. This led to hatred of me. To the planned destruction of me. I'm still here and I still have a Heart of gold, I'm more aware of it, it must be protected honoured and respected by me.

She has lost all friends from that period and is now poisoning any friendsandlovers she thinks she has.

This is so sad, a life time of looking in the mirror and trying to paint and dye and pierce yourself into something else. So she doesn't feel revulsion from her own image. Sexy is one way

BPD is a disorder of intimacy. The pwBPD is not mirroring your heart of gold, before trigger day occurs(closeness/intimacy), the pwBPD is showing you what they crave like all of us; love, closeness, attention, etc. Once that is achieved(trigger day), the disorder triggers their abandonment fears(real AND imagined). And their awful other side appears. To repulse what they once craved, which is you, me, us; the person closest to them. What we experienced in idealization and devaluation are both real.