About ready to give up

[suchsadness]

Hi everyone,

Just when I think things are going better and have reconnected to my dd36 w/BPD, it all blows up again!  I am so sad today... . and feel all the pain come back from last time this happened.  I am wondering if I should have listened to my T yesterday - but I guess since I was in a no win situation there was no good way to handle this situation.

Here it is: 

My 2 daughters haven't spoken in almost a year.  All of a sudden they had relatives (my ex's side) come to their town and they all got together about 10 days ago.  There were really hard feelings between my 2 daughters over things that my ddBPD had said about me, her sister, her childhood, and basically her whole family.  Then after they saw each other with these relatives - magically they were going to live together.  My BPDdd is homeless, jobless and without custody of her 2 boys at this point.  They thought they could "help" each other.  My BPD dd said she would clean my other d's house for letting her stay there.  The day after she stayed she sent me pictures of how messy my dd's house was and insinuated that this is cause to remove my gd.  Honestly, it wasn't even bad!  I didn't respond the way she expected and said it was nice that she cleaned it and I know my other dd appreciated it.  Then Saturday I get an email video of my dd sleeping/dozing in a rocking chair (about 5 seconds worth) and my gd5 crawling on the floor to sneak up on her.  My BPDdd tells me she can't stay there because my dd is stumbling around and passing out in front of her daughter.  I am not saying my other dd doesn't have addiction problems, but I told my BPDdd that she needs to decide if she can live with her - or not.  She is hell bent to change her and get her help.  Anyway, after sending emails telling me how awful I am to tell her accept her being an addict, she tells me that she "will get her sister help". 

I went to see my T yesterday and was very torn about whether to sit back and let this all play out or tell my other dd that her sister is sending pictures and video of her to me... . and she also to other people to show how bad her sister is.  I felt like it was unfair to my other dd for me to know what BPDdd is doing and not tell her.  SOO my T says I should tell her if it's bothering me.  My dd called and started complaining about BPDdd then said she is having some medical problems.  I said I'm worried about her and her sister is concerned as well.  This ended in her kicking my BPDdd out of the house, then my BPDdd calling me to rage/scream and tell me to "go F myself".  So here we are... . again!  Now I'm doubting my decision to tell my other dd about what was going on - and I didn't even share with her that she was taking pictures and video, I just said she was concerned about her and she says that you are stumbling and passing out.  I am truly concerned if this is happening - but maybe I didn't approach it the right way!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

Dear Suchsadness

Sometimes I get the feeling that there really isn't a right or wrong way to approach things when dealing with a person with BPD... . sad but I feel sometimes I will be on the losing end of the disagreement. You are in a tough spot and by your dd sending you photos and videos she was dragging you in further. Don't be hard on yourself... . this is not an easy problem.

What do you think you should have done diferently?

[lever.]

I feel for you being put in the middle like this, its a no win situation. For now I would just try to look after yourself and give it some space. It sounds like both daughters are quite emotionally volatile. If you get the opportunity I think I would tell them both that you will never be put in the middle again so if either has concerns about her sister she must speak to her directly and never e-mail or text you about it. I would also pre warn them that you won't get involved even if one is undermining the other. Then stick to this boundary and say "I can't do anything about it, you're both adults so don't tell me ".

[suchsadness]

Thank you both for your replies.  Lever you are spot on with your advice about not letting myself get put in the middle in the first place.  My T said my BPD dd "baited" me, and I took the bait.     She's right and that was her advice as well... . tell them they are adults and should take their concerns to the other person not me.  And you are also very right about them both being emotionally volatile.

jellibeans - that was my problem, to know what to do in this situation.  I saw that I only had 2 options once I was in the middle (again).  I could either do nothing, say nothing to the other dd and let my BPD dd keep taking more pictures/evidence - which I was afraid she would take to CPS and try to have my gd taken away.  The other choice was to tell my dd that her sister has concerns that should have been brought to her and not me.  I know that my dd would have been rightfully furious with me if I knew that her sister was violating her like this and didn't say anything to stop it.  Like I said I never even shared with her that her sister was doing these things - only that she was saying she's concerned about her.  My T thinks that she is doing this to take the focus off herself and her situation, and possibly trying to make life difficult for her sister... . as misery loves company.  So in the end and answer to your question is - I probably wouldn't do anything different but also am having problems with the way all this went. 

[raytamtay3]

Damned if we do, damned if we don't is my motto these days. I don't think you did anything wrong. But maybe next time, see how things pan out on their own so you aren't the one they point the finger at.

[TopsyTurvy]

Suchsadness

Sorry you were put in such a difficult position. I don't think you did anything wrong. I probably would have handled the situation the same way you did. Don't beat yourself up. You did the only thing you could think to do. I don't think there was any right answer. You followed your heart and did the best you could. Life doesn't come with a handbook for every situation, sometimes we just have to wing it.

Going forward, I think you have gotten good advice about letting them know that you do not want to be put in the middle.  

[jellibeans]

such sadness

I think you are right about trying to draw attention away from herself... . I see my dd do this all the time.

You got some good advise... . try not to be drawn in next time. Put a little distance between you all for a bit. I am sure things will calm down. Don't beat yourself up. You are doing the best you can... .

[lever.]

Unfortunately, have SO been there. Trying currently to follow my own advice! The temptation as a Mum is to try to fix things, but in my experience the finger ends up pointing at YOU. Take a bit of space if you can.

[MammaMia]

suchsadness

This is called triangulation and it is a no win situation.  I have learned to stay out of my dBPDs and his non sister's issues.  Stay neutral.  As Someone said, your daughters are both adults, and they need to deal with life, without involving you.  Parents are born peacekeepers... . but we need to know when to stop.

PwBPD always take good intentions and twist them into chaos.  There is most likely nothing you could have done or said to stop this.  Put it behind you and move on.  Another lesson learned.  

[lever.]

PS I had exactly same issue with being aware that DD was hacking into her sister's e-mail without her knowledge, probably hoping to cause problems for her. I think I would give one warning to other daughter to be very, very careful but that you can not get involved in the future and won't pass messages.

[Rapt Reader]

Then Saturday I get an email video of my dd sleeping/dozing in a rocking chair (about 5 seconds worth) and my gd5 crawling on the floor to sneak up on her.  My BPDdd tells me she can't stay there because my dd is stumbling around and passing out in front of her daughter.  I am not saying my other dd doesn't have addiction problems, but I told my BPDdd that she needs to decide if she can live with her - or not. ... .

My dd called and started complaining about BPDdd then said she is having some medical problems. ... . I just said she was concerned about her and she says that you are stumbling and passing out.  I am truly concerned if this is happening - but maybe I didn't approach it the right way!

Hi, suchsadness 

I, also, don't fault you for how you handled this situation. It's not right for you to be in the middle of their problems with each other, and I think letting each of your daughters know in a compassionate manner that you really can't be in that position anymore. That if they have problems with each other then they really need to deal with them on their own; you're their Mom and Mom to both of them equally, so you love both of them equally.

I've been in this position myself with my own uBPDson36 & his non-brother34. Only recently have I been able to convince them (especially the non-son34; he was the one constantly trying to get me to make his brother do what non-son34 thought he should be doing better) that their relationship is theirs to "fix" if they want to. End of story. Life is much better for me now with the both of them, so I know it can be done with kindness and sympathy for each of their grievances but the firm boundary of your not being in the middle of them.

My questions are regarding your non-daughter. I know the problems entangled with drug and/or alcohol addictions (though these problems belonged to my BPDson, not my non-son), and I can't imagine the further angst that would ensue with your grandchild also involved with the addict. Is your non-daughter seeking any help for her troubles? Does she acknowledge her addiction? Does she even want help?

Is it possible that with so much of your family's attention devoted to your BPDdaughter that your non-daughter's troubles are being overlooked? Maybe your BPDdaughter is seeing this and is frustrated that her sister is falling between the cracks? One thing your BPDdaughter is right about is that her non-sister needs to get her act together, and the granddaughter is in a dangerous spot when she is with her. What do you think? Maybe your non-daughter is seeking and getting help that you haven't mentioned... . If not, it would probably be wise to see how that could happen 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Googie]

Chin up Suchsadness,

This is the story of my life for the last 3 or so years.  My kids are younger but they are doing the same thing as your daughters are doing to you as well as themselves. 

I have lost many nights sleep trying to decide how to handle certain situations that I know are told to me only because my one daughter is splitting and I do not want to be played as a pawn however if what she says is true than I have an obligation to investigate the information.

After having a very rough 2-3 months in a row, I just was unable to function without being obviously annoyed, impatient, and just downright mean.  My DD16's T told me that I really needed to shift the focus back on what my part to play in the chaos is and then accept it, change it, and be aware of it when it happens again because this is the way it will always be if my DD16 chooses to disregard her coping skills and allows herself to become a thorn in everyone's side. 

I use the 12 step model of the 4th step.  Looking and admitting we have a part to play in the dysfunction is similar to an anti-biotic destroying bacteria which has made us sick.  It's like having emotional armor against their unprovoked and cruel attacks.  I have had more peace since I learned how to process a personal inventory in addition to an increase in walking away.

You are fortunate to have them living outside your home where they can do and say whatever they want to each other without you being witness to the insanity.  At this point I would leave it alone.  I set an amount of time to distance myself from my DD however, I have to work within minutes and hours where you can work with ranges from hours, days, weeks and even months.  90 days is enough time to re-energize yourself and send an enormous message that you will not allow their behavior to affect you at their discretion, and that you have boundaries that you intend to keep.

I wish you all the best and I hope both of your daughters create a situation that they might be forced to be compliant with a court ordered plan.  My DD16 had assault charges filed against her and that was what caused her to ultimately involve herself in her own therapeutic treatment which turned out to produce a miracle.  If law enforcement was to see a video with a young child crawling around her addicted and unresponsive mother, they would surely have CPS involved and safeguard you GD.  Both daughters (since the reside together) would be investigated and evaluated in order to put a parental compliance plan in place by court order.  Sometimes the most severe circumstances are what makes the phoenix fly. 

Keep you distance and just know that you need to focus on yourself and create solid protective boundaries.  Only you can decide how and when those boundaries are breached by either one of them, or anyone that is toxic to your personal well being.

((hugstoyou))

Googie

[Googie]

One more thing... .

I love the point that Rapt Reader makes in regards to your non-BPDd but most definitely just as sick as your DD with her addiction.  I personally know that addiction is tragically hopeless until the person suffering WANTS to seek help.  The fact that Rapt Reader made about the non-BPDd possibly being overlooked due to the problems and chaos of your DD is something that I see happening within my family as well.  It is a dangerous place to be within a family dealing with the wreckage of a loved on dx'ed with BPD.  Addiction is extremely common among non-dx sibs and has just been exposed when I went through my non's cell phone.


There is nothing you can do at this time to make it right because how were you supposed to know what was going on if nothing was brought to your attention.  My non-d told me about 3 years ago that she never wants tyo let me know whats going on because she knows how stressed I am over her sister.

Okay, I'm jumping down off of my pedestal,

Googie

[suchsadness]

Thanks for all your responses, they have been very helpful.  Rapt Reader, in answer to your question about my non dd getting help... . unfortunately no she isn't and doesn't want to.  She has been on pain meds for over 10 years for her back.  She has had about 5 back surgeries and she will most likely be on the pills for life.  I believe she has started using alcohol more and I think she also uses pot.  She is working full time and is a single mom.  As I have said, I know she needs help but how do you help someone who doesn't want help?  I know there are many of us on this board who want that same answer.  I am over 1,200 miles away and only see her about once a year... . so I have little influence in her life, and have quit giving her money but will occasionally help her with little things but pay it directly to the company and expect her to reimburse me.  I don't know how to help at this point.

Well my BPD dd just called... . and after telling me to go F myself last night I shouldn't have answered, but did.  She told me how she was trying to help non dd by going to agencies and getting her help for medical expenses if she needs an MRI or other tests and for food.  She said she got her $200 for food but now isn't giving it to her.  She went on and on, my own fault for staying on the phone as this would have been the right time to tell her what you are saying and suggesting - that I am done discussing this and she needs to work it out with her sister!  WHY can't i do this?  Then she told me she was recording our conversation after about 10 minutes into the call... . Then started in on me about the past again.  I'm proud I then said I wasn't going there again and I'm going to end the conversation, I am not going to discuss this with you unless we are doing it together with a professional!

[MammaMia]

suchsadness

 

Why was your dd recording your conversation?  I do not see how she could obtain money for your non d who has a full-time job.  That just does not pass the smell test.  

What do you think is really going on?

[Googie]

Suchsadness,

You are human AND a mother.  Mama bears protect their babies and in this situation you feel that if you at least make yourself available to them by phone that maybe you might get the chance to do what Mama Bears do... .

Problem is this is unhealthy and is making you unhealthy.  You'll have to figure out ways to get off the phone or avoid the calls all together, but when I decide to engage a conversation I'll say Okay, I have 5 minutes and then I have to hang up.  Might provoke questions but at least its an expectation they can work with.

Baby steps.  

Googie

[suchsadness]

I have NO idea why she was recording me - or if in fact this was even true.  I asked her what she was going to do with the recorded conversation but she wouldn't answer me. 

My BPD dd lies about a LOT of things - with distorted memories and delusional thinking.  She tells me that things are going on with her - that are in reality other people's experiences... . it is so bizzare!  Like she asked me if I knew why their relatives came to their city 2 weeks ago.  I said no, why?  She said because my non dd had called them and told them that her sister was in a bad place and needs some support!  WHAT - she is the one who told me a couple months ago that they were coming to town and my non dd didn't even know anything about it.  I really don't know what to believe when I talk to her and this compounds everything when she is telling me how bad off my non dd is and all the other things.  She said my non dd was smoking in bed and had burn marks on her sheets, as far through as the mattress... . I told my dh I am about ready to book a flight and go out there and see what is really happening.  I know I can't believe much of what she tells me - but I also feel like there is some bit of truth in all of this... .

[suchsadness]

OH - and another thing, and this may be why she was recording me, is that my BPD dd said she is going to try to get us on the Dr. Phil show!  REALLY?

[MammaMia]

Suchsadness

WOW.  I do not blame you for not believing what she says.  I am so sorry. 

[jellibeans]

such sadness... . sorry but the dr phil show comment made me laugh!

[suchsadness]

jellibeans... . glad I could add a little laughter to your day     We all need a little more laughter!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[JustWantMyJoyBack]

Oh my suchsadness,

I can so relate.  I concur with the point that the BPD wants drama... . drama... . drama... . anything to make them feel better about themselves.  If the BPD can project their feelings and thoughts on another, then they feel completely vindicated.

Recently (I've posted about it on this board), my ddBPD came over to tell husband & I how she feels about our relationship.  As always, at one point, she began to bring up topics & exaggerations from the past.  I immediately told her "I'm setting boundaries concerning our topics.  We've already discussed these topics and we're are not revisiting them".  She rolled her eyes and responded that I never want to talk about anything (really?).  However she did stop bringing up the subjects.

Unfortunately, she's now turned on her dad (my husband).  He usually falls into the "white" category; however, since he supported me, during our meeting, he's now "black" as well as me. 

As I read our situations, the BPD behaviors are the same, exhausting outcomes.  We're so fortunate to have this site to express our feelings and connect with others who are in the same BPD storm.

Being involved with a BPD... . there's just no winning.  Unfortunately, I must now maintain a superficial relationship with my 25 year old uBPD.  It's the only way I can remain sane.

Take care of yourself,

JustWantMyJoyBack

[Rapt Reader]

I can so relate.  I concur with the point that the BPD wants drama... . drama... . drama... . anything to make them feel better about themselves.  If the BPD can project their feelings and thoughts on another, then they feel completely vindicated.

Being involved with a BPD... . there's just no winning.  Unfortunately, I must now maintain a superficial relationship with my 25 year old uBPD.  It's the only way I can remain sane.

I used to believe that, too, in relation to my loved ones with BPD: my diagnosed BPD son36; my undiagnosed BPD Mother-In-Law & Daughter-In-Law. And, feeling that way, my nerves were raw with them during every converstation--whether in person, on the phone or by email. I felt sad, offended, hurt and angry about their words and behaviors whenever they dysregulated in my presence. I felt picked on, misunderstood and singled out by their dysregulations.

I took it very personally and reacted out of that feeling of being slighted or bullied by them. It was an endless hamster wheel we were on that I didn't know how to stop... . That wheel spun around with my M-I-L for 42 years; with my son36 it was for 20 years or so; with my D-I-L it was for 10 years. I was pretty frazzled, exhausted and every nerve in my body was exposed and on edge when I found this site in April of 2013.

When I starting researching BPD, things started to change in my understanding of these loved ones, and how their minds worked. I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger and "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" by Valerie Porr (my BPD Bible at this point!). And I read all around this site, the links below being especially enlightening to me, helping me to change my attitude:

How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life?

BPD Behaviors: How it feels to have BPD

BPD Overview and Documentary - Back From the Edge Video

What I've come to understand is that thinking that my BPD loved ones were purposely looking for and causing drama in our lives, was actually not true. Going out of their way to rub my nerves raw and make my life miserable, was also actually not true. The truth is, their dysregulations had really nothing to do with me at all, but their own struggles with emotions and feelings that overwhelmed them with their enormity. Their emotions and feelings were out of sync with reality, and they didn't know why, or how to change that, and when I (and everyone else) reacted with anger and resentment to their dysregulations, that just made the hamster wheel spin faster and faster, out of control.

By understanding this, I was able to understand them differently... . I was able to be more compassionate, more empathetic, more kind to them. I was able to use the communication tools in this Video--Validation: Encouraging Peace in a BPD Family. And Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it. And the TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth. And getting to the point of Radical Acceptance for family members tied everything up in a beautiful, bright shiny bow for all of us  

I learned that once I changed my understanding of my BPD loved ones, and changed the way I dealt with and communicated with them, they in turn changed the way they reacted to and treated me. I no longer believe the generalization that they want the drama; that they try to make me feel horrible so that they will feel better. I really don't believe that they were feeling vindicated when they were hurting me with their dysregulations. My relationships with my BPD loved ones are no longer superficial, fraught with tension and pain, or making me feel like they are "winning" and I am "losing."

I am telling the truth to you that once I changed myself, they changed they way they relate to me, and my relationships with all three of them are the best they have ever been. I see them as whole human beings worthy of my time and compassion; I see the hurting child in each of them and I love them for who they are and I validate who they are and how they feel. And it's easy to do that now that they do not lash out at me anymore (or at least, hardly ever). I know how to stop that hamster wheel whenever it starts to move... . I know that every person with BPD is not like my loved ones. But I do know that the generalization that all of them want and purposely cause the drama to hurt us, isn't actually true. I did, however, think that before I learned differently... .

[lever.]

I know you are right, Raptreader but it is a slow learning curve and change happens slowly. In response to a carefully thought out validation letter, written with Valerie Porr's book at my side I have just received a vitriolic e-mail from DD raking up every mistake I ever made and adding ones I can't remember for good measure. Everything with a negative spin re my motivations.  I can see through it to the pain and projection, but it is full of drama and accusations. It will take time for me to receive all this with equanimity but I am getting there. In the meantime venting on here is a great help in regulating my own emotions so that I can then try to respond in a helpful way.Sometimes it FEELS like we are being targeted deliberately even though that's not the case.

[Rapt Reader]

Hey, lever 

That has happened to me more times that I can count, with my M-I-L and D-I-L, and I know exactly how hurtful that is. I did find that the first time I tried the Acceptance/Acknowledgment Declaration from Valerie Porr ("Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder", page 331), my D-I-L didn't even respond. She kept her Limited Contact with me (though her husband, my non-son, did resume contact with me after that email sent to the both of them; he "got" it), and things stayed very "touchy" between the two of us for a few more months.

The trick was that I didn't give up on it; I realized that she was still hurting over the perceived slights, and I didn't react to her in any negative way, but kept up my new attitude of trying to understand what was behind her feelings, rather than centering on how she was making me feel. After a few months, I sent another email (because we really weren't talking), with the same Valerie Porr paragraph ("Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder", page 331):

I never knew how much pain you were in. I never knew how much you suffered. I must have said and done so many things to hurt you because I did not understand or acknowledge your pain. What can we do now to improve our relationship?

In the email, I addressed each of her issues with me (gleaned from a phone call with my non-son, her husband, where I listened carefully for the very first time to see what was behind her pain, rather than listening with my hackles up because I was taking it all personally). I addressed her issues using S.E.T., and NOT JADEING (NOT justifying, arguing, defending or explaining), and then ending the email with the paragraph in bold above.

What happened next (and mind you, I'd already addressed most of that stuff--but not as well actually; I didn't know then what I knew with this 2nd email--a few months before, using that same paragraph above) was pretty interesting. She at first emailed me within an hour with friendliness and surprise; she was very happy to say that "Yes, we'll see you next weekend so you can see your brand new grandchild for the first time" (but not in those words   ). I was elated! It worked!

And then, by the next day she emailed again. "On second thought, we can't just wipe this all away with an email; we need time to get over this. It's better you don't come down to see us this weekend... . " I was shocked, but realized eventually that this was some sort of modified "extinction burst" or something; she had time to realize that she'd been "manipulated" by me (no, I didn't do that, but I think that is how she felt), and that's how she reacted. Knowing this (and all my research made it easy for me to see this rather than take it personally), I gave her another day, and then worked up the courage to email her again.

In this next email, I again dug deep into the issues she was aggravated about and then used S.E.T. again to validate the underlying feelings she had, showed compassion and empathy for where her head was at (and did not JADE), and addressed those issues she had mentioned in the second email. I ended it on a friendly note, lots of empathy, and said: "It would be great if it worked out that we could all get together this weekend, but if not, I'll understand. I'm interested in improving our relationship, so I'll only do what works for you... . "

And you know what? Within 30 minutes I got another email from her gushing over my empathy and compassion, my understanding of her feelings... . and "Oh no, I never meant for you to think I don't want to see you guys this weekend... . Please do come down and see the baby... . "    But, things have been great since then, and I just never give up or go back to my old ways of understanding, dealing and communicating with her. I have a decent, real relationship with her and I don't walk on eggshells anymore; I just know better who she is and how she feels, and I keep acknowledging and validating that with her.

Maybe the trick is just not giving up when it looks like things aren't turning around immediately; just letting our BPD loved ones know that we aren't just "doing this" if it works, and then going back to our previous ways with them if they don't respond the "right way" right away? I do know that my consistent use of these tools and attitudes learned since April 2013--with all 3 of my BPD loved ones--has shown them that I won't go back to the old ways of dealing with them. I've built up trust and confidence and stability with them. Even when/if they dysregulate again, I won't go back. We've come too far... . by baby steps, but we are getting to a better place 

[lever.]

Thank-you raptreader, that helps. The e-mail said never to contact her again,so I briefly e-mailed back and said that I was willing to answer all of her e-mail if she wants me to but for now I will respect her wishes not to contact her. I hope she will get back to me and give me the opportunity to use your advice, if not I will wait a while and try again. I have already told her that I have not turned my back on her( as she thinks) and will always be here.

[suchsadness]

Yes Rapt Reader... . you are very right about changing yourself and the approach you use with pwBPD.  I have also learned a LOT from this group and read the books you recommend as well.  I have chosen NOT to write the sorry letter - and was also advised from my therapist not to do it as well.  I know that it won't work with my dd at least at this point in our relationship.  I have recently learned how to deal with the no contact, and to (baby steps) start sticking to some boundaries with my dd.  I am so proud of myself for telling her I was hanging up when she started in about the past again... . this is a huge step for me!  Now I need to work on setting the boundary of not getting in the middle of my two dd's... . this will be a very much needed step.  Thanks for your responses 

[Rapt Reader]

I am so very aware of your situations, lever and suchsadness, and I truly understand how hurtful and frustrating they are. My relationship with my D-I-L (especially; my M-I-L is 85 now and winding down in her dysregulations and we just get along and I don't take her personally anymore) has been bad from the beginning 10 years ago. It's taken since last April 2013 for us to get this far, and it wasn't smooth going even though I've used the tools and techniques (and lots of Radical Acceptance on my part) religiously since then.

I guess what I want to convey is: Don't Give Up! It can get better! And during this time of either Limited or No Contact, keep plugging away, learning all you can and becoming more educated and better-equipped should the opportunity of a better relationship become available. By all means follow the advice of your Therapist(s). I'm just a Mom posting on this Board, just like you guys, sharing her experiences   There's hope for all of us, even if the only result is our feeling better and calmer and more centered in our own lives 

[suchsadness]

And Lever... . I was also told not to contact my dd about 8 months ago, and that I was dead to her.  I respected that and took a long break (which I have to say was hard for me but easier because of the way she treated me) and did not contact her.  But - on her birthday I sent a card, which came back return to sender because the post office wasn't delivering her mail to her ex-s house anymore.  When she didn't hear from me on her birthday it was the first time in her life that happened.  So... . she actually contacted me, saying she forgives me and she is done being angry.  We had lots of contact between October and January - and not this is going on with me being in the middle of her and her sister's issues... . my fault for taking the bait!

[lever.]

You have been very helpful and encouraging Raptreader

Suchsadness - we seem to be living a parallel life, even though we are probably on different sides of the world!.

DDs birthday is soon but she has warned me not to even think of sending a card, we'll wait and see.