PwBPD thinks YOU are the disordered one. Advice?

[Seneca]

So, my uBPDh has been to three therapy sessions, he was diagnosed with some of the symptoms of BPD, but wasnt given a named disorder yet. We have gone back and forth for weeks about the dynamics, and he apparently now feels that i have NPD and i am the reason he is "like this". I know this is common, but i need help on how to handle it.

For the last few days he has been shady and weird, going on long thinking walks etc, after he threatened me in wednesday that if i did not attend therapy with him that night he was going to leave me. I did not attend because i will not respond positively to threats.

So yesterday he asked me, " would you rather be liked or admired?". I knew dang well he had something up his sleeve, so i didnt respond. Then i began seeing him like and share items from a NPD facebook page. Today he changed his status to a quote from that page that pretty much blames me for making him like this. He didnt call me out by name, and only i would know what he was hinting at. So, should i confront him, or continue to ignore this? When he does accuse me, because i know he will at some point, how do i not JADE? What do i say?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[elemental]

I don't have advice for you. I just wanted to comment and validate to you.


Recently I decided to see a therapist who specializes in post traumatic stress and DBT therapy. I have been having a lot of problems with staying calm with my BPD. Essentially he has caused so much emotional damage to me that when he starts blameshifting, invalidating me, silent treatment... . many times I have ended up getting so upset I do the JADE thing, at which point he begins to mock me and compare me to people who he makes fun of, sneers at, enjoys watching being humiliated.

After a few years of this, and after coming here, I learned that while he is being vile, it is me who kept myself present to the mind games and attacks. I am so sensitive to them, at this point, it's very easy to push me into a panic attack or into reacting with going into a big list of his "sins" and generally escalating.

I have had to be on anti anxiety meds to stay calm around him. Well, anti anxiety meds put me into an absolute stupor and my life has ground to a halt.

The point I am making is that he has grabbed onto the idea of the meds as EVERY PROBLEM WE HAVE IS CAUSED BY MY MENTAL ILLNESS.


Well I kind of resent that. So I was going off the meds, and in fact have. The plan was to address directly the damage to me with the PTSD therapy and since the therapist also does DBT, I figured it would help me from reacting to the emotional abuse and stay calm long enough to disengage.

So now, he is saying to me that can't I just stay quiet until I am through with the therapy? Once again, I am blamed and tagged as the problem and I was attacked by him a couple of days ago. As a result, I removed myself again from the situation.

So I totally get where you are coming from. I don't have any advice.  I, myself, after that event, and after some issues with my mother the same day... . I have withdrawn, I am not willing to talk to him ( or her atm) and am trying to calm down.  Without the sedating meds, I find myself energetic, aware, back in my life and madder than heck at him and her too.

So I am sitting with it.

[an0ught]

Ignore it. He may well be getting some basic psycho-education as part of his therapy and he is projecting it. He is also not all understanding it. Not worth getting too emotionally involved and from a content side the T is leading it. Stick to the basics - avoid invalidation, validate and boundaries.

Actually I think the same is happening here sometimes with new members. These things pass with time  .

[unicorn2014]

I do have some BPD traits myself so when my dBPD reminded me we both have disorders I reminded him I was treating mine (he wasn't treating his before). That was in the past. He made some choices that mean he now has to take medication and will have to go to therapy so things may change. I would not accept that kind of projection or lack of responsibility from my partner.

[PacifistMom]

Haven't figured this one out either. My depression, my past relationships, oh and also my family who has blinded and brainwashed me over the last while. This is all much worse since I've started placing boundaries to not allow myself to be hurt. But yeah just overheard yet another conversation of him telling a friend I'm brainwashed.

Hugs to all. My great grandmother used to say, there's only one of em ... . And he's an ___h***

Always gives me a little laugh when I'm feeling otherwise distraught.

[Murbay]

Seneca, as someone who went through a very similar situation to what you are facing, I just wanted to say that I understand that things must be really difficult for you right now though things can and will get better and the truth will come out 

Therapists are very crafty people and most aren't stupid. They see many people with various conditions and depending on their level of experience, they do see through the tells. However, it's never as straight forward as that and my advice to you would be to arrange an appointment to see your husbands T together at some point. I agree, you shouldn't go because he demands it but I think it will help you.

First of all, you said your h has only had 3 appointments. It is very common for a T to agree with everything your h is telling him, they will sympathise with him and in some cases the fault will unfairly fall on your shoulders. There is a reason for this, the T has to gain the trust of their patient before the real treatment can begin. If your H walked in there and the T immediately told him he was the issue, h would walk and find someone who did agree.

Secondly, there is no possible way that his T would have told him you were NPD because they have to assess the client themselves for a diagnosis. I'm sure others on here will tell you that their T has told them that what they are describing sounds like their SO has BPD but they cannot give a diagnosis without an assessment.

In my case, my exBPDw painted me black to T. She used what he said against me, telling me I was BPD/NPD and there was nothing wrong with her, it was me destroying her life and that I had to pay for the pain I caused her. She was to read up on BPD and NPD so she knew what she was dealing with.

T asked for me to attend one of the appointments with her and I did. After all she had been saying, I will be honest and say it was scary. T was very blunt and abrupt towards me, it made me feel really uncomfortable but the more I felt scared, the more at ease exBPDw became and she never even noticed her mask falling off. She felt validated so had no reason to hide. It ended with T asking me to see him on my own which was further validation to ex because it meant I was the issue and not her.

First solo appointment I had with T, he apologised for how he acted towards me. He explained he had an idea of what was wrong but needed to be certain. I broke down when he said that everything she had put on me was a projection of her, she was the pwBPD/NPD. He had hoped by her reading up on it there was a chance it might trigger something but that he felt there was nothing he could do to help her. I, on the other hand, had to make a decision to stay or leave and whatever decision I made he was going to help me. His main concern for me was what was keeping me in a toxic marriage.

Little things, even down to the small talk between them, he had carefully planned everything to draw her out. They lead and build up a trust between T and client because the only way to help them is to have that trust there.

For me, seeing the T was the best thing that ever could have happened to me and although in different countries now, he is still my T to this day. My advice is that if T is asking to see you, then maybe you could contact their office and arrange to come in on the next appointment. That way you are in control of yourself and not being dictated or ordered around by h.

Things will work out and any decent T knows who is really hiding behind a mask 

[waverider]

Your partner will say and believe what he wants, right or wrong you can't change or control that.

You believe in yourself and don't let anyone undermine that. You don't have to convince, or sell, your truth to anyone

Don't engage in nonsense it will go nowhere.

Just pretend he is telling you the moon is made of cheese and he believes it. React the same, its no big deal to you if he thinks the moon is made of cheese. You don't and that's all that matters in your world.

[empathic]

Your partner will say and believe what he wants, right or wrong you can't change or control that.

You believe in yourself and don't let anyone undermine that. You don't have to convince, or sell, your truth to anyone

Don't engage in nonsense it will go nowhere.

Just pretend he is telling you the moon is made of cheese and he believes it. React the same, its no big deal to you if he thinks the moon is made of cheese. You don't and that's all that matters in your world.

That's good advice that I would like to start following, myself. My wife has decided that the problems in our marriage are due to me being depressed. So she thinks I should make an appointment with my GP to get some anti-depressants and then the marriage will be allright again. "Have you made the call yet?" I hear now and then. I'm not really sure why I fear her (and her comments) so much, it's not like she really can make me do something I don't want to do. It just feels that way.

[waverider]

"Have you made the call yet?" I hear now and then. I'm not really sure why I fear her (and her comments) so much, it's not like she really can make me do something I don't want to do. It just feels that way.

You probably go into JADE out of fear at this stage, and you hate yourself for doing it. It undermines you.

I still find it start to happen automatically at times, and I have to pull myself up and say to myself, "hey wake up you dont have to do that, you are not accountable"

[Seneca]

Seneca, as someone who went through a very similar situation to what you are facing, I just wanted to say that I understand that things must be really difficult for you right now though things can and will get better and the truth will come out 

Therapists are very crafty people and most aren't stupid. They see many people with various conditions and depending on their level of experience, they do see through the tells. However, it's never as straight forward as that and my advice to you would be to arrange an appointment to see your husbands T together at some point. I agree, you shouldn't go because he demands it but I think it will help you.

First of all, you said your h has only had 3 appointments. It is very common for a T to agree with everything your h is telling him, they will sympathise with him and in some cases the fault will unfairly fall on your shoulders. There is a reason for this, the T has to gain the trust of their patient before the real treatment can begin. If your H walked in there and the T immediately told him he was the issue, h would walk and find someone who did agree.

Secondly, there is no possible way that his T would have told him you were NPD because they have to assess the client themselves for a diagnosis. I'm sure others on here will tell you that their T has told them that what they are describing sounds like their SO has BPD but they cannot give a diagnosis without an assessment.

In my case, my exBPDw painted me black to T. She used what he said against me, telling me I was BPD/NPD and there was nothing wrong with her, it was me destroying her life and that I had to pay for the pain I caused her. She was to read up on BPD and NPD so she knew what she was dealing with.

T asked for me to attend one of the appointments with her and I did. After all she had been saying, I will be honest and say it was scary. T was very blunt and abrupt towards me, it made me feel really uncomfortable but the more I felt scared, the more at ease exBPDw became and she never even noticed her mask falling off. She felt validated so had no reason to hide. It ended with T asking me to see him on my own which was further validation to ex because it meant I was the issue and not her.

First solo appointment I had with T, he apologised for how he acted towards me. He explained he had an idea of what was wrong but needed to be certain. I broke down when he said that everything she had put on me was a projection of her, she was the pwBPD/NPD. He had hoped by her reading up on it there was a chance it might trigger something but that he felt there was nothing he could do to help her. I, on the other hand, had to make a decision to stay or leave and whatever decision I made he was going to help me. His main concern for me was what was keeping me in a toxic marriage.

Little things, even down to the small talk between them, he had carefully planned everything to draw her out. They lead and build up a trust between T and client because the only way to help them is to have that trust there.

For me, seeing the T was the best thing that ever could have happened to me and although in different countries now, he is still my T to this day. My advice is that if T is asking to see you, then maybe you could contact their office and arrange to come in on the next appointment. That way you are in control of yourself and not being dictated or ordered around by h.

Things will work out and any decent T knows who is really hiding behind a mask 

murbay, thank you thank you for this! he is totally twisting me up, telling me that therapist thinks he should leave me and that I am putting him in an unhealthy situation, and that there is nothing wrong with him except a bit of paranoia and anxiety. And he is trotting this out to me like I am so wrong and should "take hime back" because the T says he "doesn't have BPD". it's really getting to me and making me doubt myself, but hearing that it may be a tactic to gain his trust (or accepting that it's my H's twisted reality talking, and is not a reflection on what the T ACTUALLY has been saying) helps me a great deal.

and thanks everybody else. you're right - I don't have to JADE. even if I did have a disorder myself, this is not about me - it's about him. And him taking responsibility for his own thoughts, feelings and actions. i'm so tired of this.

[KateCat]

Seneca,

Has your husband only seen the therapist three times and already heard him or her suggest that he has "a bit of paranoia?"

If so, I want to echo what Murbay has said so well above. My husband's initial diagnosis was "major depression" (although I suspect the psychiatrist never expected it to be the final diagnosis). The final diagnosis, some months later, was "paranoid schizophrenia."

I'm not predicting your husband has schizophrenia.  Instead, I think there is a kind of "ladder" of diagnosis a therapist may climb as sessions proceed. They need to be cautious and professional.

Even if your husband only has "a bit of paranoia," that is a big problem, as you already know. It means that you will want to hang on very tightly to waverider's suggestions about preserving your own reality.

I too love the idea of you at some point meeting with the therapist.

[Seneca]

katecat, i made an appointment to go this wednesday.

yes, my H was so insistent on that first meeting that he be definitively diagnosed with BPD so he could prove me wrong or right and then manipulate as needed, that he demanded to be given the personality test that only Ts can give... . I don't know what that is. some super secret test I guess. The test revealed that he had high levels of paranoia and anxiety, and was severely lacking in social skills (the ability to read people's expressions, body language, and an inability to behave "appropriately". And he was SOO excited about this, because it means he doesn't have BPD! and he came home and said "my doctor said I don't have BPD, see? now you must take me back, because i'm not sick!" and i'm like "did he say you don't have BPD specifically, or did he just say you had these other things instead?" and that's when things get discombobulated and that's just details blah blah.

meanwhile H is in a hurry for me to either recant everything i've said about discontinuing our romantic r/s until he is making some progress (and if he makes no progress, then discontinuing it permanently), or to leave. But I am not leaving. Soo... . he is basically driving me mad!

[KateCat]

Seneca,

Are you going with or without your husband? Either way, prepare for an interesting experience--not that you don't already have those in your marriage, of course. 

Something tells me you won't get a definitive picture yet either, though. Sounds like early days of discovery for you.

(I don't place bets on sporting events, but I do enjoy amateur wagers on psych diagnoses on these boards. For what it's worth, I'm betting you don't even rate a "meh" as a narcissistic personality type. Sometimes what I suspect is the male member of an NPD/BPD couple does arrive on this forum and usually his first post is a great giveaway doozy: you learn right up front how financially successful he is, what kind of car he drives, how he has never had any trouble with the ladies, how many fine gifts he has bestowed on his problematic love and so on. We all have traits of "something," but your husband's analysis of you sounds a bit unconvincing if this is his choice of the problem in your marriage.)

It may just be my own personal experience that raises the hairs on my neck when I hear the word "paranoia" used in a therapeutic context, but it's a permanently tough thing to live with a person who actually has that. So, here's to your Wednesday appointment and a step toward greater understanding. 

[Seneca]

Right on katecat. If i am anything, it may be mildly antisocial... . haha.  npd seems really outlandish. Not sure how he even came up with it. I am going alone on wednesday. If the t asks for me to come with him so he can see us interact, then i will go back with him.

And the theories about trust with the T seem spot on after todays appointment. He came home saying what a great guy the T is and how he told a few super relatable personal stories today and he's really really happy with him.

[Murbay]

Seneca,

We all develop traits as we grew from the people we interact with to what we learned from our own families. It is not uncommon for us to share a borderline trait or a bit of narcissism and many other traits. The key difference is understanding those traits and where they came from. It can take a while for a diagnosis, in my case with exBPDw it was several months because it is about consistency too.

You might find that on top of establishing trust, a T will also try to tackle one trait or issue at a time and this isn't necessarily a speedy process. It isn't like a visit to the doctor where we go in with a list of symptoms, doctor gives a diagnosis a few pills and we go home to heal. Paranoia can be a symptom of BPD but it can also manifest in other PD's too. If this is your h's most pressing issue then T has made good starting point to tackle the individual elements and carefully remove the layers of what is going on.

It really does sound like progress for you and I wish you all the very best with your appointment on Wednesday   

[KateCat]

He came home saying what a great guy the T is and how he told a few super relatable personal stories today and he's really really happy with him.

Nice!

[MissyM]

Good luck going to his new T.  It takes a long time for a T to make headway with a BPD, good that he is going to one.    My only advice is to stay as regulated and composed as you can in the session.  My experience in dealing with this is that the T will push you, to see how much of the problem is you.  It is weird and can be kind of disturbing when you are undergoing trauma from the BPD. 

[ugghh]

Seneca

None of what your H is doing is out of character with BPD.  He seems to be full of projection, seeing all of his issues as yours.  It is not at all uncommon for pwBPD to display symptoms of other PDs.  After reading Splitting by Bill Eddy I saw how my stbx definitely crosses into the NPD spectrum as well.

Remember the pwBPD hear what they want to hear.  So when you say if you work on your issues I might stay, he hears if he goes to counseling all is is forgiven.

Regarding the content of why he says I will reword a saying from another site I visit.  ":)on't take legal advice from your soon to be ex (stbx)."  In your case, don't take counseling from your BPD H!

Honestly you seem to be keeping a very good handle on things.  I hope you are thinking of seeing a therapist just for you.   It can really help you clarify your thinking and keep priorities straight.

[Seneca]

thanks uuugh! I seriously don't know what I'd do without this forum, I think I'd be bonkers by now. He sent me an email this AM saying he is seeing a divorce lawyer on Friday. Trying to be calm and brave. I think it's so funny that I spent 13 years patiently waiting for him to reciprocate my love. I take my stand and tell him I am unsure and unhopeful for the future, and remove the intimacy form the r/s and he can only make it FIVE WEEKS! five weeks and he is calling divorce lawyers. I waited for his sorry behind for more than a decade, he can barely handle a month!   I feel a combination of  :'( and "don't let the door hit ya."

[MissyM]

Seneca, my dBPDh was acting the same way when I detached from him.  It sent him reeling and to deal with his distress he filed for divorce, behind my back, and started on a dating website!  BPDs have no tolerance for distress and will do anything to make it stop.  Of course, my dBPDh changed his mind but that is what they do.  Push, pull, push, pull.  Hang in there!

[waverider]

He came home saying what a great guy the T is and how he told a few super relatable personal stories today and he's really really happy with him.

Nice!

My partner does this with any new doctor/councillor/therapits etc. Usually lasts two visits while they trot out the S & E. Then when the T comes out... Nothing but dust trails to get away from someone who is incompetent and knows nothing.

Truth is you have no idea what the T said or thinks, unless the T tells you so themselves.

[KateCat]

I think waverider's prediction of a short honeymoon with this therapist will prove accurate. At least it will have bought you one visit with the therapist and some clues as to how a professional might view your husband. Priceless, I think. Or at least it was for me, as I needed to hear the words from an actual psychiatrist, it seems.

[Seneca]

I am very nervous about today. my H makes it sound like the T thinks there is nothing major wrong with him, it's all my fault, he should hire a lawyer and protect himself etc. I don't know if I am walking into an appointment with someone who

a) said nothing like that and my H is just twisting reality

b) is totally snowed and taken in by my h and believes what he has been selling

c) has no history of dealing with PDs and couldn't recognize a high functioning borderline, and therefore is wasting our time

d) ?

You are right, all I can do is stay calm and real, and not try to sell my story. Just the truth, nothing fancy. Let my guard down... . ugh, really really hard for me. I do have to admit that I often behave like a beaten dog, combativeness brought on by crippling fear of him and all of this.

[KateCat]

Well, I can't wait to hear how this goes, and I think it will go fine.

You can't go wrong with that advice to be open-minded and curious in a non-defensive way. Avoiding the dreaded JADE will help you get info fast and will show the therapist you are not a black and white thinker.

Therapists have to think like attorneys, I believe. They can't afford to buy into a client's presenting story without doing independent investigation. You may be a little disappointed that you don't learn as much as you might wish, but if instead you are raked over the coals it would be surprising.

Maybe if you approach the whole thing with an "I'm here searching for ways to best serve my family and my kids" approach you can put the therapist at ease too.

[MissyM]

Hope today went well, Seneca.

[Seneca]

went well. he was nice and totally non threatening. wanted to know more about Hs childhood, then what it's like to be married to him, and wanted me to clarify my stance about where i'm at in the marriage. he didn't divulge too much about what he thinks. he did seem to be pushing the idea that he just has a case of 'jerk-itis' and doesn't know how to "show his love for you". if you call (literally) spitting into my face "not showing love", then I guess yea, he can't show it to me.   he was an older guy, and I am not sure he buys into the idea of "disorders" or maybe he just refuses labels. Not sure. I don't need the label, just want accurate treatment. i guess what i kept driving home was that this didn't seem to be an "us" problem, and that we should go to marital counseling (tried that!), but a him problem. that he is unhappy within himself, insecure, and unsafe feeling and it causes him to be bad towards me to try and get a need met.

i said, "in some ways he's like an old soul. in other ways, like a little kid. arrested development". he said just before i left, "no. i think it is more like he is a new soul. there has been NO development. the guy doesn't seem to have any skills or tools." he said he can't promise he'd change because there are a lot of factors, but that he wouldn't come to work everyday if he thought change was impossible. he was pretty generic. did say to call if i see anything happening that he should know about.

so, i guess it went ok. not great, not terrible. i survived it and "did my duty" to help. so that's all i can do. friday the H is going to see a divorce attorney, so we'll see how that shakes out. 

[KateCat]

he said just before i left, "no. i think it is more like he is a new soul. there has been NO development. the guy doesn't seem to have any skills or tools."

I could be wrong, but this sounds so definitive, after only three or four meetings with your husband. If he communicated so openly with you, do you think that can help you put to rest any fears that you have a major psychological or emotional disorder?

My husband's psychiatrist eventually spoke just as frankly to me, and I don't think she would have if she had thought I too had a comparable mental health problem.

Did you actually tell him, as an example of behavior, that your husband had spat in your face? With the trend in the U.S. to expand and expand the definition of assaultive behavior in a domestic situation, this may be an important thing for the therapist to know. (And for you to be free of in the future, of course.  )

Sounds as though you did very well and actually learned quite a bit in one single session.

Edit: And now you can probably expect waverider's prediction that your husband's enthusiasm for this therapist may soon begin to wane. Especially if the guy starts to ask him if he was raised by wolves, or something.

[Murbay]

Seneca,

From what you describe, it sounds like it was a positive experience. Like I mentioned before, my T was at the other end of the scale in terms of leaving me to feel like it was 2 against 1 during the initial appointments. Also my initial appointment with him at the very start, when he was seeing my exBPDw and before I was his client, I felt somewhat similar to you.

That he wasn't seeing the whole picture, that it wasn't great, that I felt I was defending myself when I really had nothing to defend. It was a feeling of frustration because I didn't care about labels, wasn't looking for who was right or wrong, I just wanted a resolution and peace. If it was me that was the issue, I wanted to work on that just so things could be calm at home and that my ex wasn't raging all the time.

You have given your H's T plenty of information to ponder on, but as it is your H's T, he probably isn't going to give very much away to you at this stage. However, it seems he has hinted that he understands part of the problem.

Most T's don't tend to use labels and look at a disorder as a combination of issues which they tackle one at a time. I found with my T, that it was only when my ex ticked all the boxes for BPD and NPD over several months, only then did he label it. He now refers to her as being Cluster B disordered since she has more than 1 disorder but also exhibits Cluster A traits too.

It does sound like a positive step in the right direction for you and hopefully he is able to work with your H to bring a bit of peace and calm to you  

[Seneca]

katecat, definitely don't feel like i have a pd. many years ago when we first married, i absolutely did. and there is no doubt i've been co-dependent. a lot of that is behind me. i did poll my close family and friends, take a personality test etc, and nothing affirms that i have an illness of my own. it was just more projection/ blame casting.

yes, i gave him examples of behaviors. he kept up with this - well husbands can be insensitive jerks, routine. but it's more than not getting me an anniversary card, or realizing that he needs to be attentive and supportive. it is being actively cruel and punishing. i tried my best, i hope he heard me. now he has a better picture. i am so glad i went alone, there is no way i could have been as candid with my h around. his presence just causes me to get defensive and scared, and when i am like that, it comes across as forcefulness and aggression... . which would not have helped my case.

h was distant last night. i am sure nervous about what went on between me and t. he will probably be a bit suspicious of the t for a while now. hopefully he can win back trust with him easily.

going down to a local college today to start working on the next phase of my life. i need to be able to support myself if he goes through with leaving. he is going to TWEEK out when i tell him. i think i won't tell him until i am actually enrolled or about to.

i also told him i would not seek legal counsel at this time, as it would be a waste of money if he weren't serious. i said, if you decide to go through with it, just let me know, and i will find someone.

[KateCat]

This is a great plan.  Preparing for your own financial independence is the best thing you can do.