Message from Ex: What is this?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

For the past month I've broken no contact and sent a few messages to my ex saying, basically "You have a problem and need to take responsibility for what happened!" He basically ignored me or acted like I was the crazy one for continuing to pester him until earlier this week he sent me this:

I thought your concluding wish that, when and if my personal life comes to shambles, your voice will echo in my head with an "I told you so" was fitting of your approach. You have always tried to insinuate yourself within my dread and become one with my own voice of self-reproach. With that, it becomes especially difficult to see a healthy resolution to my inward crisis as anything other than a resolution of the "problem of us." And while they may be linked, how can I ever now know? The very thing you would like me to admit to is that I have no right to enter a new relationship, nor exclude a past one. Even if this is true, your need to make me conceive it as such only tangles everything further: I cannot (or anyway, could not) distinguish between the pull I have toward you and the desire to resolve myself. 

This is not an attempt to shift the blame to you, at any rate, not any more blame than is deserving (whatever that is). It is only to lay out a clearer picture of the problem as I experience it. 

Yes, I have a problem with intimacy and commitment. As I get closer to someone my perceptions of them change and it's a constant trial to see what is the cause of the change, what in my original perceptions were real, what in the news ones are false. Commitment to another also means commitment to myself; that means the solidification of a narrative and image of myself as fastened down by the other's eyes. It requires comfort with who I am and knowledge of who I am. Perhaps a desire for another person is a desire to see myself anew; to get distance from someone, the chance to refresh my self-concept (which is, at any rate, only a warring faction of  [decreasing] possibilities). But if I can not trust the image I see of someone "up close" because it is a projection of all my fears, how can I trust how they looked when I saw them "afar," in whatever sparkle first caught my eye? In any case, the problem is one of criterion, of a measure, of my own self-measure, which is to say not yet a measure at all.

Now, your request has always been that I make a leap of faith and jump out of the realm of the possible into one of an actuality of which I have as of yet no assurance that it was not, as genuine possibility, just a play of colour and light. Do it now, you will catch up as a subject later on. Forge your criterion through an act that is criteria-less.

I'm sorry that you have become a victim of my own inner chaos. You are right that I have a conflict inside of me that spills over into my personal relationships. It is also true that there might be a great possibility between us that has been lost in all of this. How can I know?  What I want to find and what I want to create is a self properly attuned and capable of serving as a measure by which I can evaluate and feel confident in the decisions I make and desires I have. Until I forge a more inwardly unified and consistent self, I will not be able to trust my own perceptions and I will not have access to the truth of the world and my desires. Self-knowledge is somehow a simultaneous act of discovery and invention. I do believe that you care for me and I do miss your friendship which, I at least know for certain, was not an illusion or self-projection, but a real meeting of like souls.

I don't really know how to interpret this sudden clarity and nostalgia(?) for our "friendship" and seeming admission of wrong-doing and need to take responsibility. Thoughts?     

[UmbrellaBoy]

For the past month I've broken no contact and sent a few messages to my ex saying, basically "You have a problem and need to take responsibility for what happened!" He basically ignored me or acted like I was the crazy one for continuing to pester him until earlier this week he sent me this:

I thought your concluding wish that, when and if my personal life comes to shambles, your voice will echo in my head with an "I told you so" was fitting of your approach. You have always tried to insinuate yourself within my dread and become one with my own voice of self-reproach. With that, it becomes especially difficult to see a healthy resolution to my inward crisis as anything other than a resolution of the "problem of us." And while they may be linked, how can I ever now know? The very thing you would like me to admit to is that I have no right to enter a new relationship, nor exclude a past one. Even if this is true, your need to make me conceive it as such only tangles everything further: I cannot (or anyway, could not) distinguish between the pull I have toward you and the desire to resolve myself. 

This is not an attempt to shift the blame to you, at any rate, not any more blame than is deserving (whatever that is). It is only to lay out a clearer picture of the problem as I experience it. 

Yes, I have a problem with intimacy and commitment. As I get closer to someone my perceptions of them change and it's a constant trial to see what is the cause of the change, what in my original perceptions were real, what in the news ones are false. Commitment to another also means commitment to myself; that means the solidification of a narrative and image of myself as fastened down by the other's eyes. It requires comfort with who I am and knowledge of who I am. Perhaps a desire for another person is a desire to see myself anew; to get distance from someone, the chance to refresh my self-concept (which is, at any rate, only a warring faction of  [decreasing] possibilities). But if I can not trust the image I see of someone "up close" because it is a projection of all my fears, how can I trust how they looked when I saw them "afar," in whatever sparkle first caught my eye? In any case, the problem is one of criterion, of a measure, of my own self-measure, which is to say not yet a measure at all.

Now, your request has always been that I make a leap of faith and jump out of the realm of the possible into one of an actuality of which I have as of yet no assurance that it was not, as genuine possibility, just a play of colour and light. Do it now, you will catch up as a subject later on. Forge your criterion through an act that is criteria-less.

I'm sorry that you have become a victim of my own inner chaos. You are right that I have a conflict inside of me that spills over into my personal relationships. It is also true that there might be a great possibility between us that has been lost in all of this. How can I know?  What I want to find and what I want to create is a self properly attuned and capable of serving as a measure by which I can evaluate and feel confident in the decisions I make and desires I have. Until I forge a more inwardly unified and consistent self, I will not be able to trust my own perceptions and I will not have access to the truth of the world and my desires. Self-knowledge is somehow a simultaneous act of discovery and invention. I do believe that you care for me and I do miss your friendship which, I at least know for certain, was not an illusion or self-projection, but a real meeting of like souls.

I don't really know how to interpret this sudden clarity and nostalgia(?) for our "friendship" and seeming admission of wrong-doing and need to take responsibility. Thoughts?     

[musicfan42]

That message from your ex is a load of rubbish. He's very articulate but he's essentially trying to let you down easily, without hurting your feelings.

[love4meNOTu]

Looks like a stinking pile of horsepoop to me.

How's that for elegance.

He takes no responsibility. You got an I'm sorry, and he didn't try to attack you so ... .

Did you get what you wanted?

L

[redbaron5]

What the hell is this? That message is so cringe worthy I don't know where to begin.  It's a pile of garbage masked by some articulate wording, It's almost as if he/she is trying almost too hard, its embarrassing. It reeks of narcissism, if they were truely sorry they would just say it, simple and to the point, not hide behind the camouflage of a word heavy garbage poem.

[blissful_camper]

His phraseology is troubling.  I got the sense that he's seeking attention, like he's baiting you.  He wants you to feel sorry for him.  "I'm sorry you're a victim... . " isn't an apology. I would have liked to see him acknowledge the things he did that were hurtful to you.  Referring to you as a 'victim' is a way of distancing himself from the pain that he caused you.  It's all intellectualized but not felt, as remorse, on his part.  It seems that he's playing victim throughout to gain your sympathy, and then later in the last paragraph in the last couple of sentences, he's testing you.  It's a hook. 

[Moselle]

I think he's admitting to a few things, but certainly not taking responsibility for them. I's almost an intellectual treatise on the relationship. A break up can be a wake up call, or put someone further into denial. This one looks like denial.

[patientandclear]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more with the responses so far.

From everything I've learned & been able to figure out from my own experience & reading the thoughts of pwBPD here & there, this is an incredibly insightful, accurate statement of the problem. I don't know how to break it down better or more fairly than he does, so don't know that I can add anything since folks seem inclined to brush this off, but for what it's worth:

He's saying he can't rely on any of his feelings.That, just as the collapse of his feelings when he gets close to someone is unreliable, SO ARE THE INITIAL IDEALIZED FEELINGS. He's saying: until I have more confidence in who I am and until that's more stable, how could I possibly know how to choose among my riot of feelings, what is reliable & what is false?

I know we prefer to believe the initial flood of love & adoration is more "real" than their subsequent actions at odds with that good feeling, but your ex is asking the correct, hard question about all that: how is he supposed to know what is real, when it all changes so fast for him?

He's challenging you to recognize that what you've been telling him is more true than you perhaps want it to be, Umbrella -- he isn't capable of doing r/ships, not yet, maybe not ever, through not "fault" of his. Knowing that, what is the right thing for you to do?  Is it right or fair to ask or expect him to do a certain thing toward your r/ship, when he's calling into question whether he could possibly have any healthy r/ship at present?

I continue to be impressed with this guy. He is telling some inconvenient truths here. I see why you like him ... .

[FogLight]

I have to second what patientandclear posted.  I can understand why anyone would call that message BS, especially when feeling the aftermath of a relationship with a pwBPD.  Honestly, there's no point in trying to figure out why he sent the message, and from I understand now even he may not be able to answer that question.  He does seem to have more insight than most with BPD, just the fact that he is even aware of the potential flaws in his own perceptions is pretty damn amazing in my book.  Apparently, he's questioning the "feelings = facts" belief that most disordered people seem to unconsciously carry.

Regardless, I wouldn't drive myself nuts trying to figure out what he means or why he sent it.  And don't expect him to accept that he has a problem and needs to take responsibility for what happened, doing so is only going to keep you attached.

[isseeu]

I had exactly the same reaction that Patientandclear had.

[myself]

"Until I forge a more inwardly unified and consistent self, I will not be able to trust my own perceptions and I will not have access to the truth of the world and my desires."

If only more people would admit and work on this.

[ShakinMyHead]

I'm with Bliss-full Camper... you've kept your distance, stellar NC, now his hook is out, bait is in the water, passive fishing, takes no responsibility for the lazy lover,  so you can be ditched the second they detect your interest. Just getting you on the hook is so much fun. Do you smell the olive oil and seasonings? You are being prepped for a recycle. Yes, Moselle, he's showing that he knows his behaviors are questionable by taking verbal responsibility for some, but only in the service of his agenda. Not to help his partner through intimacy and understanding. There will be no denying an authentic gesture. So don't worry about missing it! This wasn't it… Hugs, SMH go to sleep

[UmbrellaBoy]

I think I agree with patientandclear now that I think about it more.

My response to him was basically: You're right here. You need to be a whole person to enter a relationship, and I don't think you are. I was naive to think that a relationship could make you one if you weren't already, that my love alone could heal you. I should have just walked away a lot sooner. But this realization also can't just be an excuse not to enter one with me (which could just be a clever way to reinforce your engulfment-fleeing and all that) only to jump into drama with someone else. If you aren't capable of a relationship right now, then you shouldn't be in one with anyone. Further, you should really consider talking to a therapist.

Well, I left it at that. It's rather validating to have him finally admit all this when previously it was all masked in "I'm running back to the other guy in the triangle" (which was obviously facing nothing, just swinging back and forth using each as "breathing room" from the other) or "I am making a mature decision that I don't want to be with you" when obviously he still does very much feel a pull (even if he questions how much of it can be trusted given his condition).

But part of me wants to say something like... . that I suspect, if he doesn't get real therapy, that this "We need to be apart to give me space to heal" will become more about the "space" than about the "healing" (in other words, just ironically using "getting healthy" as an argument for continuing in the unhealthy patterns).

And the selfish part of me, the part of me that still loves him is frustrated by the clarity. Not that I'm impatient; I could wait forever if I really thought it was constructive. But although I appreciate his concern that if his freaking out when things get too serious is pathological, maybe his original feelings were also illusion... . I think there really is something there beneath all this crap, and I also want to say something like: "Is simply not talking really fixing anything? Why must your attitude be 'I just need to be alone indefinitely to figure things out' where the goalposts are so vague, rather than saying 'I want to work with you constructively towards seeing if we could make things work, in a discernment (with a professional) that would work on sorting out what is real and what isn't."

What he says is true: "Self-knowledge is somehow a simultaneous act of discovery and invention," and this implies to me, at least, that "Figuring out what I want before making a decision" and "Making an arbitrary leap decision before I know what I want" are not the only two options. That in real life, desire works more like a synthesis between acting and wanting, between choosing and desiring, where (taking real adult responsibility for ourselves) or desire and our choice are sort of two sides of the same thing, making ourselves in our becoming.

I mean, how can he knows if he's better if not in the context of a real and concrete relationship? How can he "practice" the new skills he might learn in therapy if there isn't someone to practice them with in a relationship? Part of me knows that there is wisdom in what he says, but part of me is still suspicious that things are still the tiniest bit "off" inasmuch as his clarity could still potentially be used to justify stagnation, like the person who refuses to make any decision until he is 100% certain when none of us ever are, when we all just forge forward all the time and, yes, deal with the consequences and "catch up as a subject" after making those decisions.

I don't know what else to say though if, say, I were to try to convince him to move towards therapy, or towards trying to be constructive with me, or if (instead) I wanted to get real closure. In some ways it does feel like a hook, because he's still ambivalent enough here to keep me waiting, keep me hoping. It's "I'm not going to give you any hope because then I'll be accused of stringing you along. But... . I'm not exactly saying 'no never' anymore either. Who knows how I'd feel if I got better? But then, who knows how long that would take, and even then there are no guarantees." It's almost a sort of tragic self-pitying "I'm broken, don't wait for me to get better because I don't know if I ever will" which just plucks my "rescue" strings even more... .

Sigh. I guess ShakinMyHead has a good point though: an authentic gesture would be absolutely undeniable. This seems ambivalent still and sorta like he's hoping I'd say something like "Well, can we just be friends again?" and get back to the same status quo he always wanted, which was being undefined "more-than-friends (but-without-titles-or-commitment)" with me (and with the other guy in the triangle too) and just getting the intimacy he likes without any of the responsibility he doesn't want (or can't) commit to. Very confusing.

[Ironmanrises]

As is any message following NC from an expwBPD, to bait you. To manipulate you. And ultimately, to hurt you at the end.

[GreenMango]

This past December was difficult for me. After no contact for three months after the break-up except for one or two snarky comments that I posted on his blog (that he probably knew were from me, as they never got approved)... . I started breaking No Contact as the holidays approached (though HE seemed to stick to it).

I sent a poem at the beginning of the month that was pretty condemnatory (if he understood the symbolism, which I assume he did). Then I did another snarky blog comment when he did a post that CLEARLY was basically admitting BPD tendencies (and yet not seeing it, apparently). Well, it was bad timing as apparently his grandpa died the next morning. But I saw him visiting my blog every so often in December and lingering there (he had avoided visiting since August, apparently). So I felt "Maybe things are melting/thawing again." I sent him a text using an anonymous texter thing online and he texted back just "I'm sorry." And then finally I sent him a long "nice" email about how much I still love him and how great he is etc etc (it was a mistake, I know, but it was New Years and I was getting nostalgic).

Didn't hear anything back, though he was still checking my blog a lot. Then about a week ago, something else happened: I heard from his ex from five years ago. Apparently when I was drunk one night in October I sent a message out to him. Never heard back... . until January. He messages me finally ready to vent/talk, I guess. Basically, he confirmed everything about my ex's BPD flakey awful problems with intimacy and commitment and attachment. It was soo validating.

But at that point I was feeling so vindictive and self-righteous that I made the decision (maybe a mistake?) to forward screen-shots of my conversation with the other ex to our ex and basically say, "Look! Everyone sees it! It's not just me! Please please please get help!"

Well, he sent back a very brief email about how much contacting the ex and showing him the conversation had "hurt" him and how I was always cruel like that etc etc. I sent back a thing saying, "Um, no, I just want you to SEE. You just sort of avoid addressing these patterns that everyone sees. Like you're in denial" and explaining that, basically, I was at a point where my goalposts had changed and any future reconciliation would have to depend on him seeing a therapist.

Then I get an email from the replacement. I only got an email like that once before (it was a love triangle, back and forth). This time it was (oddly) just a pic of a Japanese girl giving "the finger." I forwarded this to my ex with a sort of mean message about how pathetic this was. He texted me saying he had nothing to do with it, the replacement made that decision after being told about how I had contacted the ex (implying that maybe forwarding the conversation did cause some "waves" in the new relationship too?)

My ex finally texted me saying that "You know, I HAD intended to respond to that nice email you sent... . " As if to imply, "Maybe I was thinking about reconciling after that, but you blew it by talking to my old ex." Psh. I spoke with some friends about this later and they all thought it was very strange that he would make a point of telling me that he had been planning to respond to the nice email (how could he have responded? Either by saying he was with the replacement and breaking my heart again, or by trying to reconcile ambivalently like in the old days... . he was always trying to get back to the old status quo). And besides (as usual for him) he was apparently procrastinating weeks on responding anyway, so too bad for him.

Anyway, I'm back to NC as, if there was any thawing in December, the ex-contact thing seems to have me painted thoroughly black again. But I just don't care anymore. It was necessary to "move the goalposts." Otherwise I would have just been suckered back into an ambivalent uncommitted situation when really he needs to get help.

umbrella it looks like you are actively involved in trying to provoke a response from this man to the point of sending hurtful poems and getting involved in a Karpman conflict triangle. Many times we can get caught up in the conflict cycle looking for closure.  

He has admitted to having intimacy issues.  The hall marks of these relationships is our mutual maturity levels.

My thoughts are he is hurt and possibly tired of being harassed in this way.  I would be hurt too by this and I don't have BPD.  It looks like he sees how you are struggling with all this and despite all the negatives trying to explain a little of his reality (whether you agree with it or not) and possibly provide  some closure.  It seems to be quite a tame and civil response.

Do you think it may be time to step back a bit and work on detaching?

[blissful_camper]

My ex drafted similar notes to me. And we had lengthy conversations about his behavior while involved that pointed to his having clarity about his issues.  But guess what?  He did that to keep me on board with him. He knew me well enough to know I wouldn't tolerate his mistreating me.  He knew that I needed to hear that he was 'self aware' to remain in the relationship.  He played on my sympathy so I would feel sorry for him. I bought it and I was duped, big time. The so called 'self awareness' was a form of manipulation and a pretty sick one. 

Something to look out for is canned responses. People with major issues will have canned responses to explain and excuse behavior.  It's because they've had a lot of practice in previous relationships. 

[blissful_camper]

"It was necessary to "move the goalposts." Otherwise I would have just been suckered back into an ambivalent uncommitted situation when really he needs to get help."

He decides when and if he will get help.  Do you want a fixer-upper?  There are available men out there who don't have these issues, and are healthy.  The only way to move yourself out of the mess so that you can begin to heal is to drop your end of the rope.  Let it go.  It's not your job to fix him or make him aware of his behavior. 

[Slowlybutsurely]

I agree with PatientandClear as well. The email is a clear and aware self-description, and it seems to me your ex meant it as closure as best he could.

I think it is in both of your best interests (and especially yours, if you want to preserve any self-dignity in the wake of this) to let go and stop contacting him. Any more contact from you after this would seem completely desperate, you know? You have to let go, and I wouldn't consider being friends. However painful it is, No Contact seems like your best option here.

[2010]

Green Mango is correct. This communication is about engulfment, and it’s real and truthful and straight from the heart- but it’s also a goodbye letter.

There’s no bait, no manipulation, no candying of a hook and no B.S. It is 100% about engulfment and he is smart enough to realize that it must be stopped.

Umbrella Boy, this really is more about you than him. If you understand engulfment then surely you realize your contribution to it.

If you could stand back and see yourself -you’d see a person hovering, waiting and yes, <<demanding>> that things are brought to a boil, much like standing over the stove and watching a pot.

Have you ever heard the phrase, “a watched pot never boils?” Well, it’s the same with people. If your self-esteem is dependent as to whether or not the pot boils, then you are setting yourself up for suffering, especially when it doesn’t.

This is one way to re-live your childhood schemas of uncertainty, hopefulness and waiting, waiting, waiting- being disappointed and not feeling good enough. But the object of your desire is most certainly “not you.” If you’d stop projecting yourself onto this man you might be able to allow him to become himself. That’s the lesson here… as he is being authentic. It should not be a reflection on you whether or not he changes into your ideal in therapy- yet somehow, this is your entire hope and dream. That's telling.

I don’t mean to make this painful for you- but if you read the email again, you’ll see his engulfment woes because of this. What’s left is to understand how this came to be, especially concerning your own inability to let go of the outcome of his therapy, (which wasn't ever your decision to begin with. It was his and still is his.)

In addition, (from what you’ve told us,) he’s already involved in another relationship. While you may harbor hopes of his return, the reality is that he’s decided to be with someone else and from what he’s communicating; he’s also open to meeting new people. I’m sorry for that but I do believe he is saying something important enough to listen closely and read between the lines.

It appears as though you are still having difficulties with letting go. This has caused you tremendous suffering to the already failed attachment. It is also causing him further engulfment. The engulfment can clearly be seen in his communication, which is really about fighting for his free will to do what he wants:

I thought your concluding wish that, when and if my personal life comes to shambles, your voice will echo in my head with an "I told you so" was fitting of your approach.

THE LAST THING YOU SAID TO ME WAS THAT I WOULD FAIL. I SEE THIS NOW AS YOUR APPROACH ALL ALONG.

You have always tried to insinuate yourself within my dread

THIS IS ENGULFING ME.

and become one with my own voice of self-reproach.

YOU ARE JUST LIKE MY OWN HYPER-CRITICAL PARENT VOICE THAT I HAVE INTERNALIZED IN MY PSYCHE.

With that, it becomes especially difficult to see a healthy resolution to my inward crisis as anything other than a resolution of the "problem of us."

WE’VE BEEN SPENDING SO MUCH TIME TALKING ABOUT “US” BUT MY PROBLEMS GO BEYOND YOU AND ME. I’M SORRY, BUT I HAD THIS VOICE IN MY HEAD WELL BEFORE YOU CAME ALONG. THIS REALLY HASN’T GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU EXCEPT THAT YOU’VE COMBINED IN MY MIND WITH MY PUNITVE PARENT NOW. I WISH YOU WOULD SEE THAT BUT YOU DON’T. YOU THINK THIS IS ABOUT “US,” ABOUT YOUR STRUGGLE WITH ME. WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING I’VE HAD TO DEAL WITH MY ENTIRE LIFE.

And while they may be linked, how can I ever now know? The very thing you would like me to admit to is that I have no right to enter a new relationship, nor exclude a past one.

THIS IS NOT FOR YOU TO DECIDE. STOP PARENTING ME.

Even if this is true, your need to make me conceive it as such only tangles everything further: I cannot (or anyway, could not) distinguish between the pull I have toward you and the desire to resolve myself.

“YOUR NEED TO MAKE ME” JUST PLACES ME IN AN ADVERSARIAL POSTION TO DEFEND MYSELF. YOU’VE ADDED ON TO THE VOICE OF PERSECUTION IN MY HEAD WITH YOUR SHOULDS. YOU’VE BECOME MY ANTAGONIST. THERE’S SOMETHING PERSECUTORIAL ABOUT YOU THAT REMINDS ME OF ALL MY PREVIOUS FAILURES TO BE AND TO MAKE MY OWN CHOICES. THIS IS WHAT KEEPS ME PUSHING AND PULLING WITH YOU TO TRY TO GET YOU TO UNDERSTAND. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE TO WORK ON FROM THE INSIDE AND ON MY OWN.

This is not an attempt to shift the blame to you, at any rate, not any more blame than is deserving (whatever that is). It is only to lay out a clearer picture of the problem as I experience it. 

YOU NEED TO STOP TRYING TO GUIDE ME, TEACH ME AND CONTROL ME. I AM FEELING ENGULFED BY YOU. I NEED TO MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS.

Yes, I have a problem with intimacy and commitment. As I get closer to someone my perceptions of them change and it's a constant trial to see what is the cause of the change, what in my original perceptions were real, what in the news ones are false.

WHETHER OR NOT I CAN HELP IT, MOST OF MY RELATIONSHIPS HAVE SWUNG BACK AND FORTH WITH MISTRUST. I KNOW THERE’S A REASON FOR THAT. I’M TRYING TO DISCOVER WHY.

Commitment to another also means commitment to myself; that means the solidification of a narrative and image of myself as fastened down by the other's eyes.

THE WAY I AM SEEN IS IMPORTANT. WHEN A PERSON TELLS ME THAT I AM DEFECTIVE, OR TRIES TO CONTROL ME, MY PART TIME BAD IS ACTIVATED AND I MUST GET AWAY FROM THEM. I FEEL ENGULFED. I DON’T LIKE IT WHEN YOU TRY TO CONTROL ME. I HAD TO GET AWAY FROM YOU.

It requires comfort with who I am and knowledge of who I am.

I CANNOT FIND COMFORT WHILE OTHER PEOPLE ARE TELLING ME WHO <<THEY>> THINK I AM.

Perhaps a desire for another person is a desire to see myself anew; to get distance from someone, the chance to refresh my self-concept (which is, at any rate, only a warring faction of  [decreasing] possibilities).

FINDING SOMEONE NEW INSTEAD OF STAYING WITH THE FEELINGS OF ENGULFMENT THAT A CONTROLLER ACTIVATES INSIDE ME IS EASIER FOR ME. YET I AM SAD ABOUT THE UNKNOWN. I AM LEARNING THIS ABOUT MYSELF AND I KNOW I MUST CHANGE, BUT FIRST I NEED TO TRUST MYSELF.

But if I can not trust the image I see of someone "up close" because it is a projection of all my fears, how can I trust how they looked when I saw them "afar," in whatever sparkle first caught my eye? In any case, the problem is one of criterion, of a measure, of my own self-measure, which is to say not yet a measure at all.

I’M STILL LEARNING. I DON’T KNOW WHY I DO THINGS, THEREFORE I DON’T KNOW WHY I FEEL ENGULFED BUT I AM TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT. I AM WANTING TO UNDERSTAND MYSELF BETTER.

Now, your request has always been that I make a leap of faith and jump out of the realm of the possible into one of an actuality of which I have as of yet no assurance that it was not, as genuine possibility, just a play of colour and light. Do it now, you will catch up as a subject later on. Forge your criterion through an act that is criteria-less.

TO MAKE ACTIONS THAT ARE CRITERIA-LESS IS YOUR "REQUEST," WHICH ADDS TO MY ENGULFMENT. YOU’RE ASKING ME TO CHANGE CRITERIA THAT HAVE PROVIDED ME WITH SURVIVAL FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE. I CAN’T CHANGE THAT FOR YOU WITHOUT LOSING MY SENSE OF SAFETY. THE ONLY THING I CAN DO IS TO RETURN TO MY OLD WAYS AND KEEP DOING THEM. SORRY IF THAT MAKES YOU MAD, BUT IT’S MY SURVIVAL SYSTEM. MAYBE I WILL WORK IT OUT, MAYBE I WONT, BUT I CAN’T HAVE SOMEONE WATCHING MY EVERY MOVE AND JUDGING ME FOR MY FAILURES. I’M ALREADY HARD ON MYSELF I DON’T NEED MORE SCAPEGOATING AND RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOMEONE ELSES HAPPINESS.

I'm sorry that you have become a victim of my own inner chaos. You are right that I have a conflict inside of me that spills over into my personal relationships. It is also true that there might be a great possibility between us that has been lost in all of this. How can I know?  What I want to find and what I want to create is a self properly attuned and capable of serving as a measure by which I can evaluate and feel confident in the decisions I make and desires I have.

I WANT TO BE. I WANT TO MAKE MISTAKES WITHOUT HEARING YOUR VOICE IN MY HEAD- WITHOUT HEARING ANYONE’S VOICE TELLING ME I AM WRONG. MY LIFE IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. NO ONE ELSES.

Until I forge a more inwardly unified and consistent self, I will not be able to trust my own perceptions and I will not have access to the truth of the world and my desires. Self-knowledge is somehow a simultaneous act of discovery and invention.

I NEED TO CHOOSE AND MAKE MY OWN CHOICES, EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG. IF THEY ARE MISTAKES, SO BE IT. THIS IS MY OWN LIFE.

I do believe that you care for me and I do miss your friendship which, I at least know for certain, was not an illusion or self-projection, but a real meeting of like souls.

WE WERE TOGETHER FOR A REASON. THANK YOU. I HOPE FOR THE BEST FOR YOU, TAKE CARE.

Umbrella Boy, you have written something that I think is a worthwhile point to consider, especially concerning the idea of how one learns unless it is within the context of a relationship.

I mean, how can he knows if he's better if not in the context of a real and concrete relationship? How can he "practice" the new skills he might learn in therapy if there isn't someone to practice them with in a relationship?

The same logic applies to you concerning the need for this relationship. His quote of “your need to make me” is very telling. That’s what this is all about. When you engulf someone, it says volumes about your needs in a relationship. Both of you fit together in ways that are extremely complimentary yet very unhealthy. It caused you both suffering. That’s what this relationship was for. He is ready to let go and perhaps already has. Right now, your learning process should be about letting go. It’s about detaching and allowing him to be whomever he wants to be without any judgment from you.

Your lesson is not to judge, guide, teach, cajole, lecture, etc. etc. etc. or engulf him at all. No emails, poems, nothing. Let go and heal. I know it will be hard, but the one person who needs you is you. Take care of yourself and remember, you can only be responsible for one adult in life. You must guide yourself out of the need to “insinuate” yourself in someone else’s dread. Let go and be at peace. 

[an0ught]

Hi UmbrellaBoy,

it sounds like you ex has a certain awareness of his weak self and the dynamic in relationships that enfold when he looses perspective. Once the relationship breaks and there is more distance it all becomes clearer again. But while being close in a relationship he's lost.

Pretty normal for a pwBPD. Where does that leave you?

[chuckstrong]

Wow.

What an amazing and insightful thread. So much to

be learned here it's overwhelming. I've been here for well

over a year and am currently 17 months out of the most

life altering relationship of my life that lasted just short of

one year. I still struggle to this very day to come to grips

with how this seemingly wonderful relationship was in retrospect

a bunch of smoke and mirrors. The things I'm reading here

and so many common themes that I actually experienced with my

uBPDxGF are uncanny. I'm here still to continue to learn and

of course figure out WHY!

Why a relationship that took me over

the moon could have failed so unceremoniously with in my mind

no rhyme or reason. The engulfment theme here stemming back to

childhood experiences is so on target in what I experienced. She told

me once post breakup that I gave her all the things she should have

gotten from her parents as a child but didn't and she just hasn't

figured out a way to hold onto them. She waxed poetic about how I

treated her " like a princess" but that it wasn't enough she couldn't help

herself from running away and she couldn't really explain why. It's oh so

hard for all of us here but for me figuring out the common themes has

been helpful and the insights of amazing posters like Patientandclear and

2010 have been invaluable.

I'm so glad 2010 that you are back! You have attained

a legendary status amongst people that have been

here a while and all your almost 800 posts have so much

incredible valuable information. Thank you and if you are ever

inclined to read my old threads/posts and give me even more

analysis/advice it would be well received. But again thank you

and again glad your back you can help so many people here.

Chuck

[UmbrellaBoy]

I know rationally that what 2010 says is largely true.

But what still makes me so mad is this: I didn't start out as a judging voice. I started extremely patient and affirming and the opposite of all that engulfment stuff.

And guess what? He freaked out and push-pulled anyway. And I walked away the first time or two, assuming it all just meant he wasn't that into me (but handling it poorly). And guess what? He chased me down. And so THEN, when I saw that dysfunctional pattern, when it became clear that it wasn't so simple as there being no desire on his end, but rather a real love (of some sort at any rate) combined with a sabotaging fear... . then yeah I started to call him out on it. If someone is behaving erratically in a way that hurts you and is disordered, is it wrong to point that out to them and chew them out for it or try to tell them they should change?

But then it becomes a "convenient" self-fulfilling prophecy for him: he pulls away due to irrational engulfment fears even before I ever "insinuated myself" into his psyche, I then chew him out for that abusiveness, and he turns around and takes that confrontation as "proof" that I really am engulfing or as a justification for continuing to run or waffle.

Yet he's done the same thing with several other guys... . guys who were not as inclined as me to confront him, guys who just walked away when he pulled the original crap. So it's not just me. And yet it becomes this awful catch-22, like the old joke "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member." It's like he "tests" you by pushing you away. If you resist that choice and confront him, then this "proves" you're too suffocating and don't respect his choices or are engulfing or whatever. On the other hand, if you don't resist the pushing and say "fine. That's what you want? Then I'll give it to you! I'm leaving" then (paradoxically) he may still want you again (an ex who did this, who just walked away after the sabotaging, he always sort of spoke of as "the one who got away" but it will be "too late," of course, since he already has driven that person away.

So it's like... . he'll only want to have anything to do with you, ultimately, if you respond to his crap by wanting nothing to do with him. But at that point, those people by definition want nothing to do with him, so he winds up alone either way. Try to hold him accountable though and confront him and expect him to act like an adult and drop his neurosis, and this is taken as proof of engulfment and insensitivity and as a conveniently self-fulfilling confirmation of his original doubts. It's bullcrap.

Yes, I understand not wanting a "parent" voice. But all the people who are not like me in that regard (who, you might say, have the self-respect not to put up with the drama)... . wind up just walking away definitively, and so he winds up with no one either way. Yes, I should have just walked away, that's the healthy response. But that still leaves him with no one permanently by it's very emotional logic.

[Slowlybutsurely]

I'm really sorry you are hurting and in the midst of your ex's "bullcrap," as you put it. I completely understand and can relate to what you've said, and you obviously have a very good understanding of your ex and the dynamics of your relationship.

Given all this, and the things you've explained so clearly, all you can really do--all you have control over-- is your own response to all of this. Doing what are you doing now--trying to get a response from him--isn't working and it isn't going to. As I see it, all you can do is walk away and start the process of healing. I'm really sorry for you. I've been there.

Hugs to you.   

[an0ught]

Hello UmbrellaBoy,

So it's like... . he'll only want to have anything to do with you, ultimately, if you respond to his crap by wanting nothing to do with him. But at that point, those people by definition want nothing to do with him, so he winds up alone either way. Try to hold him accountable though and confront him and expect him to act like an adult and drop his neurosis, and this is taken as proof of engulfment and insensitivity and as a conveniently self-fulfilling confirmation of his original doubts. It's bullcrap.

Of course he is excusing it. If he would not self sooth with excuses he would need to actually deal with it. And that is beyond what he can emotionally cope with. So if he tried he will feel so uncomfortable that he goes again down the route of excuses.

Can be pretty disorienting from the outside. There is reason until there is suddenly no reason. It is sad for all sides involved.

Therapy of BPD starts with learning emotional regulation. Without basic emotional stability confronting actual behavior and change thereof is not leading anywhere as the dysfunction kicks in and prevents any real progress. From the outside, especially after the break-up it is quite difficult to have any real influence. At the moment his way of living seems to work for him - as painful it is for others.

It is certainly painful to have been a part of this   It is as painful to see it continuing imagine the damage being done without being able to call a halt

all you can really do--all you have control over-- is your own response to all of this. Doing what are you doing now--trying to get a response from him--isn't working and it isn't going to. As I see it, all you can do is walk away and start the process of healing.

Well spoken 

[Slowlybutsurely]

Also, UmbrellaBoy, I want to say one more thing. One really really important thing, that seems utterly and painfully clear from everything you've written and from what 2010 has so amazingly and awesomely said; There is NOTHING you could have done or done differently to have made this relationship work. Nothing. Sure, you could have not become so entangled, enmeshed, blah blah, but that would not have changed the ultimate inevitable outcome: his inability to be in a truly intimate relationship with you. Remember that. There is nothing you could have done to make this work,

[janey62]

Slowlybutsurely, that one paragraph is so important.  It takes away the need to go over and over what I did/said and whether I could have made a difference if I'd done it or said it differently.  I can see it, it wouldn't have made any difference, but it's still hard to accept.

I have this strange sensation now, having left the pwBPD, though I had no choice because he kept leaving and abandoning me.  The sensation is of having been on a very fast moving open train, with all the fear and exhilaration, that thundered along for a very long time, 18 months in my case, to suddenly being stationary - on the platform, no longer a part of it.  There is a feeling of anticlimax and of having been left behind and hugely let down.

I totally can see my 'lonely child' part in it all 2010, my making him my mystery, trying to shelter him and making allowances for his behaviour, as insane as it got.  Trying to get the love and understanding from someone who was essentially just mirroring me.  Then my utter shock and confusion as he pushed me away and pulled me back to the point of being emotionally battered. 

I so feel for you umbrellaboy, it seems as though you're standing on that same platform as I am!  We are so much a part of the drama, the other half of the equation in fact.  Without us they can't be and vice versa.  What slowlybutsurely says is so true though, you have to let go of trying to work him out and concentrate on working yourself out.  It's the only way back to peace of mind... .

Janey

[patientandclear]

I think we err when we believe it's possible to just overcome or "drop the neuroses" through realization & effort. This causes us to wonder why we & the loss of us isn't sufficient motivation to just get it together.

UB, don't remember if I've recommended this to you before, but you might find The Buddha & the Borderline worthwhile. That book, from the POV of someone dealing with these feelings, sobered me. I ended it feeling that it is a major a=t of bravery for someone wBPD to exist alone, w/o using others as a drug. To go beyond that, & learn a whole new way of "loving" that feels nothing like what they always thought love would feel like, would be an epic achievement.

[goingtostopthis]

I dont know.   I didnt get a good feeling about the whole letter at all.   I thought it was awful. I thought it was creepy... .    It was so purely self centered and empty. I mean the fact that is was so over analized with in it's self shows to me that this guy is engulfed with himself more then anything. And  that's the problem. HeI acts as if he doesnt know who he is or what he feels, yet he had no problems verbalizing all his word salad as nicely as he did about this subject.   This sounds like a guy who is more in love with the way he writes then he could ever even consider loving anyone else.  I agree, this letter had nothing to do with the relationship or person's feelings who was receiving it.     I have questions.  Was he really being engulfed as he says,  or is he just projecting his own self engulfment he places upon himself?   and if he hears his parents in his head, thats his problem and shouldnt be projected out again as if its the fault of the one getting this letter.  I think the letter is a hook, a real creepy one at that.  Id come to ask, is there even a person in there?   hello?   or a jelly fish.  seriously?  Some people just dont want to work on relationarrogantship problems because they are too small too face themselves.And then you have to ask was it even a relationship to begin with.   or some special school play made up just for them to struts around in like  arrogant fools about the age of 4.

[love2give]

Some people just dont want to work on relationarrogantship problems because they are too small too face themselves.

Totally agree.  For my ex its so much easier to end it than to admit she may have even one fault,

[2010]

But what still makes me so mad is this: I didn't start out as a judging voice. I started extremely patient and affirming and the opposite of all that engulfment stuff. But then it becomes a "convenient" self-fulfilling prophecy for him: he pulls away due to irrational engulfment fears even before I ever "insinuated myself" into his psyche, I then chew him out for that abusiveness, and he turns around and takes that confrontation as "proof" that I really am engulfing or as a justification for continuing to run or waffle.

UB, I’m with you on this. No one intends to get involved with disorder. But many people do intend to stay and then try to fix what they feel is wrong. So, in this instance we can clearly see *bargaining* going on.

When you look through the lens of understanding on this, you’ll see the only thing that bargaining (fixing) does is prevent your own abandonment (and subsequent depression that occurs from letting go of the outcome.) Bargaining is an exchange of control in a relationship. Chances are you’ve been this way for much of your time with him, especially concerning his back and forth with a third party and you waiting in the wings.

Bargaining creates passive aggressive communication which really doesn’t fix much of anything, it just makes things stagnant. Stagnant means there is no personal growth possibilities, for either party. It's a dead stop or pause.

The person being acted upon or “fixed” is passive. They have already said they feel defective (otherwise they wouldn’t need fixing) it is obvious that they are approval seeking (otherwise they wouldn’t be asking for advice) and now they have gone silent out of fear of doing things (your way) wrong.

The person doing the action “fixing” is aggressive. They are trying to heal the passive person’s defectiveness without triggering their own defectiveness i.e, the persona of fixing has failed.

The fixer persona is waiting for the passive persona’s silence to end (and waiting while nursing the need to get everything. Just. right. The sooner the better…)

Perseverance needing reassurance, wanting perfection and waiting for a turnaround in a timely manner. The fixing persona has placed their life ON HOLD to get this done but needs results and feedback, because this is about action, not inaction. You can see where this is going with a person that already feels defective. Persecution.

Waiting for the silence to end can be TORTUROUS to the fixer, so an extinction burst usually happens (a few times) that makes the passive person withdraw further. Both parties have a simmering, boiling caldron of hostility for each other but the one who blows is almost always the fixer. The fixer forces a response- because he has to. His compulsive need is found in aggressively fixing and doing, not passively waiting and “being” because this is about the fixer’s identity and the need to fix which is a modern day recreation of an old, archaic conflict from childhood. The same can be said for a person with BPD. Each has triggered the other’s archaic conflict.

Again, no one intends to get involved with disorder. But many people intend to stay and then try to fix what they feel is wrong with another human being because <<it’s their compulsion>> to do so to ward off their anxiety and fear of being abandoned.

We may think we have all the answers for other people, the reality is that we haven’t been concerned about our own reasons (stuck points) and are choosing instead to engineer the future of an entirely separate human being, one who is telling you they are confused and unsure about life. That’s a coping mechanism for anxiety for both people concerning their life choices and there’s a reason for each person doing that rather than feeling their own pain.

Much of these questions of “why does he do that” should really become “why do << I >> do that?”

Your reasoning that he will “be alone” is really a projection of your own fears. This is also a very “all or none” statement that props up the need to DO in order to prevent that fear of BEing alone. You’re concerned for his being alone but what about you? Being alone means suffering through the loss of an attachment, which up to now has been a back and forth push/pull of bargaining energy that prevents your own abandonment.

You see, it’s much easier for you to concentrate on fixing another human being than to be alone. This prevents depression and keeps you locked into anger and the compulsion to bargain away while keeping your life on hold and secretly seething and pushing for a resolution.

So while it’s a fine quality to help others figure out their stuck points and subsequent disordered thought, it should only be after you’ve figured out much of your own.

OK, I’m abandoned. What now? Does he expect me to wait?

You are already inside his head as a punitive task master. There is nothing that will change about that if you continue to remind him that you are waiting in the wings for his return. Any further suggestions of how to contact you (do’s and don’ts) are really proving his point about you. There is no further obligation to each other. Letting go of the outcome is necessary.

What will happen if I let go?

You will leave the active (doing) stage of bargaining and enter into the inactive stage (being) of abandonment. If you have a compulsion to fix- it will be like a part of your identity has de-commissioned. This will involve a very scary identity crisis and depression and will be very painful, but it is a process that is life changing and if you don’t get too scared, you will emerge with greater clarity about who you were and who you are.

The pain you will feel will pass. Some days will be bad, others will be better. You may feel like isolating. That’s OK. One thing is for certain, you are no longer going to be a *child of wait.* This former relationship has put your life on hold. That has gotten you nowhere. You are going to suffer through the urge to call this person and carry on like you did before. The outcome of all of this pain means that you’ll reemerge later with surprising clarity of what you want and what you don’t want in life. You will no longer be put on hold again.

What if someone else comes in and takes my place and starts fixing him?

You can count on it. The easiest way to resolve this fear is to understand BPD is a “pattern.” Therefore, look back rather than into the future. The past has your answers. Find the person who you took the place of. Realize that you have ended up no differently from their outcome. Now, look ahead. Your replacement will bring their own compulsive needs into play just as you did. And after them, another person, and so on... . Remember, people with BPD are very good at meeting new people. In time, you will too.

This is a disorder- it was meant to teach you about yourself. It’s not within your ability to control the outcome. Your greatest lesson of your entire life is ahead of you in abandonment depression. It is the most important thing you will ever do in your entire life. Feel it and trust that you will survive it.

Abandonment depression:

Yes, it’s a real thing. All mammals go through it. Depending upon your family of origin, you may not have successfully accomplished abandonment depression due to neglect or enmeshment. Being a “child of wait” is a good example of neglect and an incomplete abandonment depression. The “wait” is a stuck point. Now, this failed relationship has brought this up to the surface and you are fighting like hell to feel it. You’ve done whatever you thought you could to prevent the feelings from surfacing but they’ve got to come up if you’ll only let go.

Denial: Anger: Bargaining: Abandonment: Depression: Isolation: Clearing: Acceptance:

Look where you are. In bargaining. You’re halfway through already! Let it happen. It is painful and horrible and all the things that people fear, but abandonment may be the greatest accomplishment you will ever make in life. But first, you’ve got to respect being on your own. You can’t stay with another person in denial, you cant stay in anger and you cant stay bargaining every little thing in hopes that your life will be better in the future. You cannot place your life ON HOLD anymore. You must be alone to figure things out.

BE yourself. BE honest with yourself. BE understanding that you will get through this. You will emerge with a profound understanding of yourself, I promise you. Abandonment will allow you to let go of your outdated and maladaptive coping mechanisms until you learn to ACCEPT yourself just as you are. And isn’t that what we all want? Acceptance? You’ll only get it after you’re abandoned. You will survive. 

[Slowlybutsurely]

Thank you for this awesome post, 2010.    Your wisdom is much appreciated by us.