"We are not friends"

[kft]

Posting here so I don't post to Facebook **  

Today my pwBPD business partner informed me that he does not consider us friends but "close acquaintances". This was after whining about his personal problems for about twenty minutes.

So I asked him "who do you consider your inner circle then?"

He lists some people he's known for years and claims to talk to weekly (although as far as I've seen it's more like monthly-- if that-- but whatever let's give him the benefit of the doubt) then he says "Um... I guess I'm close to my girlfriend too... . I mean I do live with the girl."

*facepalm*

Sometimes I wish it were possible to make them watch their lives from outside their bodies.  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Want2know]

Posting here so I don't post to Facebook **  

  Smart of you.  I see so many people inappropriately talking about others on facebook.  Even when they don't mention their names, many times you can guess.

Do you want to be friends with your business partner?

Working with someone closely every day, those lines can get blurry. 

[kft]

Do you want to be friends with your business partner?

Working with someone closely every day, those lines can get blurry. 

We are friends. Unless he tells every "acquaintance" about how he was molested as a child. I get what this is about, about two months ago I quietly defriended/unfollowed him on every social network because I was way WAY too enmeshed and needed to take care of myself. It's really hard to pull yourself out of the FOG when so much stalkerish information is just a click away. Guessing he noticed.

We were also talking about how the people he hangs out with tend to betray him in some way after a few weeks. So he was playing this whole "I don't really care, the people I spend 90% of my time with aren't my friends. I'm not close to them."

Yeah right.   In truth these moments are good for me because they are so transparently BPD, it keeps the rest of my feeling in perspective.

[Want2know]

I have read some of your previous posts, and understand that it may be difficult to maintain your business even if you were to part ways with him.  I also see that the folks he hangs out with are not a healthy support, as you say that he has issues with alcohol.

Regardless of what he has shared with you, personally, do you feel it would be best to move towards being more of a business partner than a friend? 

You cannot control his behavior.  If it is affecting your business and your relationship, there are things you need to consider changing.  Are you ready to do this?

[kft]

Regardless of what he has shared with you, personally, do you feel it would be best to move towards being more of a business partner than a friend?

Unfortunately in our industry you would have to be really really good at compartmentalizing for that to work. Partners generally live together, travel together, work 16 hour days together. It's not at all uncommon for people to tease each other about being "married"

I would find it very difficult to scale back anymore than I have. And more to the point, I would say in general I am not unhappy with our current relationship. The amount of BS-denial he's in concerning some aspects of his mental state annoys me. Mostly because it is so senseless. He's incredibly bright and hard working, a little bit of help could go so far for him. It annoys me that he wastes so much valuable time pretending everything is fine when it's not.

The situation with his NPDgf disturbes me and I want it over because this girl was abusive to another good friend of mine and I truly deeply hate her guts

But neither one of these things I have any control over. When it comes to the things I do have control over, I am not really dissatisfied with the way they are playing out. So I don't really think changing my situation will do anything to help. I could use to detach a little more, maybe.

[elemental]

Detaching under any condition that you are getting stressed over is always helpful. There is some drama already there that you are not directly involved with, but you are reacting on. ( his rude girlfriend and too much sharing his history creating false intimacy with people he doesn't know well)

Obviously you are unsettled or you wouldn't be here. So focusing on keeping your life stable and comfortable is really primary. With so much time spent in his company working and so on, what kind of outside interests do you have to help refresh and distract you from getting pulled in?

[hergestridge]

From the persepective of my BPDw, a relationship is not a friendship until she decides so. We've been a couple for 18 years and spent most of our waking hours together (at her insistance I must add) when she told me that she didn't actually consider us friends and had never done so.

I found this a bit strange (not really insulting because I know how twisted her thinking can be) so I asked her if she had a closer relationship with someone else during those 19 years, and she said no. But she wished she had a "real friend". It turned out she has a very idealised view of friendship which was more down to a feeling than any conrete criteria.

She complains about the few friends she has. Mostly about how they don't let her in on private details of their lives, being too "cold" and "guarded".

Actually, I think her friends are doing just the right thing when they don't let her come too close. Because soon she's in a vile mood and then she doesn't want to hear about their "issues". She can't handle the "friendship" she longs so much for... .

[kft]

]Obviously you are unsettled or you wouldn't be here. So focusing on keeping your life stable and comfortable is really primary.

Well just as there is no one-size-fits-all therapy to cure them, there is no one-size-fits-all solution for us. I first started coming here because before I realized it was BPD I was confused and deeply hurt by the way he would jerk me around constantly. Then once I found out about BPD I had to read absolutely everything I could get my hands on

I stay because reading the stories here helps keep things in perspective. My pwBPD is pretty high functioning, it's easy to forget he's sick, easy to give in when he wants to be close. The threads where people talk about their partners getting worse with age are particularly useful for me.

The forum serves as a nice reality check. I find, at least in my case, the hardest moments in our relationship are when things are good. The rages and the temper tantrums don't bother me and don't threaten me. I have a family history of serious mental illness, so a lot of hands on training dealing with adults who act like toddlers When he dysregulates, all that experience clicks into place. In fairness I might have slight narcissistic tendencies myself, because when he dysregulates I don't feel hurt or upset, I feel superior. I don't say anything about it, I don't belittle him or anything, I just don't take it seriously. And that usually stops the incident in its tracks.

But when things are good it's harder. SET and DEARMAN are really useful, but when they work sometimes I find myself relaxing forgetting that he is sick ... . which I'm not particularly comfortable with. Over the last couple of months I've managed to arrange things in my life so that his illness does not threaten my security, either physically, financially or professionally. But when you like someone and care about them ... . at least for me there's a natural inclination to invite people into my life.

I need a regular reminder that I cannot do that with him.

With so much time spent in his company working and so on, what kind of outside interests do you have to help refresh and distract you from getting pulled in?

No, you misunderstood me. We're just coming out of a LC period where our only communication was through email (although for some reason he wanted to call me on Valentine's Day, which I thought was particularly strange because there's was nothing to discuss that couldn't be discussed in a short email and he HATES talking on the phone) and an in-person meeting once every two-weeks. This week we agreed to regular check-ins and weekly face-to-face meetings. A big step for me, but the LC really was negatively affecting the business and I felt like my head was clear enough to handle him.

The reason why I indicated accepting the "business partners not friends" line was not really an option is that in our industry (oh ___ it... . It's Tech. You know The Social Network, zip lines on the roof into the pool and all that? * chemistry between business partners is considered paramount, more important than experience, product, market, profits, etc. The fact that we're NOT attached at the hip is already perceived as odd. It is already a source of skepticism.

I think most people just assume the distance is unresolved sexual tension rather than mental illness. I'm a girl, he's a guy and we have this strange nonverbal communication ... . it's a natural assumption that if we're not behaving with the public closeness expected that we're probably 1) trying to cover up a sexual relationship or 2) in denial about a sexual attraction.

So anyway, what I'm saying is if I took the separation a step further and made it clear to people we weren't even friends, that would put the business in jeopardy. There have been too many billion dollar lawsuits between former business partners in this town for people to want to take a risk on a company where the cofounders aren't even friends.

[Want2know]

Now I understand what you mean by being enmeshed.  It seems like there are a lot of lines being crossed. 

I have to ask, and I hope you do not take offense to this question - have you had any previous encounters with him that might be considered more 'romantic' or emotionally involved in the past?  There seems to be some undertone in your writing that either suggests this, or that this is something that you may be drawn to.

The other threads on our site may help keep things in perspective.  Reading them is good if it's helping you.  I feel that there is more going on here that perhaps you may want to look at.

[elemental]

I agree. The romantic undertone is very much there. I am not sure if it is one of those things where the relationship is ambiguous and people are not sure where to place boundries, or... ?

I took to understand that you were spending 16 hours a day with this person, because you indicated it was common, and you are right that I didn't understand. Probably I didn't see it in one of your posts.

If you are not interacting very much and generally prefer a distant, lacking in drama situation, then simply work on detaching because this is eating up a lot of your headspace. You seem very involved for not really being involved.

[kft]

I have to ask, and I hope you do not take offense to this question - have you had any previous encounters with him that might be considered more 'romantic' or emotionally involved in the past?  There seems to be some undertone in your writing that either suggests this, or that this is something that you may be drawn to.

No offense taken I get this A LOT when I go to support groups. I'm not sure how much of it is because we have a semi-romantic bond and how much of it is because the majority of people in these groups are looking for help with a SO and simply cannot fathom why I would even try to maintain such a relationship if I wasn't being romanced. It is one of my few frustrations with this board tbh. Sometimes I feel a bit invalidated by the advice given here because people have this attitude of "if he's not your boyfriend, you have no reason to stay" and that's not true.

I LOVE working with him. I LOVE what we are building. I feel natural, and appreciated and totally unselfconscious around him. I get amazingly frustrated at the way he abuses himself and punishes himself and the people he associates with who carry on the abuse for him.

Anyway, the simple answer to your question: we are not, nor have ever, been involved romantically. Not even slightly. I used to tease him about being absolutely incapable of talking to me about anything other than work.

But whether that's because we have no romantic connection, no potential, or because his illness makes him absolutely terrified of going there ... . I don't know. I'm kind of an aromantic person as it is. I have no desire to fall in love or be in a relationship. When I think about marriage what appeals is the idea of having a partner in crime, not the love story. So, there was definitely a point before I found out about the BPD where I would have said I was interested: I'm attracted to him, we work well together in stressful situations, we have similar family dynamics, similar backgrounds, similar experiences. It was in my mind a very promising match.

But he never acted interested in me ... . or rather one day he would act like he might be receptive to the idea, and than the next he would act like he was repulsed or ashamed and push me away. At the time I found this deeply hurtful and it practically destroyed my self esteem. Once my sense of self-worth was tied up in his attentions I found myself in a kind of state that I guess people might confuse for love-- for sure-- but it wasn't, it was emotional abuse. What was odd about it was that the desperate longing only existed when he was not around. As soon as he was around, my head cleared and I went back to being satisfied with the platonic nature of our relationship. That's how I knew there was something wrong, did my research and found BPD

ANYWAY, post discovering BPD my feelings are very different. I still like him. I still enjoy his company. But I will not even consider the possibility of being romantic unless he goes into some form of therapy. There's something deeply unattractive about his denial.

[Want2know]

ANYWAY, post discovering BPD my feelings are very different. I still like him. I still enjoy his company. But I will not even consider the possibility of being romantic unless he goes into some form of therapy. There's something deeply unattractive about his denial.

Thank you for your honesty and not being offended.  On this board it is all about making progress and not venting (or at least if there is some venting, there are also some next steps).

So, it seems there is some thought that this could be something more.  Just stating that based upon your responses.  This is what I saw in some of your comments, regarding hating his gf, and about him contacting you on Valentines Day.

Some of what you have shared so openly seems to stem from your FOO (family of origin).  Having to deal with them, it is similar to what you are experiencing with him.  I totally relate to that.  My dad was very similar in his narcissistic tendencies.  It was normal to me.  Good to hear that you recognize this.

So, what is your next step?

[kft]

So, it seems there is some thought that this could be something more.  Just stating that based upon your responses.  This is what I saw in some of your comments, regarding hating his gf, and about him contacting you on Valentines Day.

Oh I hated his gf WAY BEFORE they ever started dating. I'm not sure how much I've gone into this in other posts so let me summarize: she was dating this guy, no longer wanted to be with him and instead of breaking up with him like an adult decided to completely humiliate him by making out with a very good friend of mine in front of everyone. My friend was not aware that she was technically still attached. When he became aware of it he wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, but broke it off when she repeatedly jerked both him and the ex-boy around. She then started stringing along this other guy, dragging him to parties where he knew no one and then completely ignoring him. Then she threw herself at two other friends, both of whom were well aware of her antics and told her to f-off.

Then she settled on pwBPD and so far she has done nothing but belittle him, ignore him, try to inject herself into every aspect of his life, encourage decisions that make him completely financially dependent on her, turn people against him. Typical NPD hit.

So yes, I have the occasional fantasy about pushing her in front of a bus But pwBPD has dated other girls in the past and I've not had a problem with any of them.

So, what is your next step?

I'm mainly working on changing the way he thinks about therapy. FOO and past experience have given me a good basis with which to start the conversation (I mainly focus on the idea of skills building, acknowledging completely legitimate fears of stigma and loss of control, etc). But he's high functioning and an extremely good gaslighter so it's hard to tell what's sinking in. If anything.

I feel pretty comfortable with the way my life is organized: good friends, hobbies, support group, financially secure, etc. But I question the sustainability of our situation if he goes untreated. I mean, I can deal with the craziness, but it's ridiculous to expect anyone else will. So I do try to nudge him out of his denial if I can.

I would LOVE to get him away from the gf, but to be frank, I've come to realize that he likes the abuse. He knows she doesn't care about him and he doesn't care about her, that makes him feel safe. The only way those two are breaking up is if she cycles through him or if he goes into therapy.

[Want2know]

This is where the lines are blurry.  Bottom line, he is your business partner.  You depend on him to sustain your monetary life.  If you feel he is not mentally healthy and could sabotage (not consciously) your livelihood, then you are in a very precarious situation.

Taking that step to influence him, a pwBPD, into a better mental health state is not an easy or recommendable task.  There are many here on the this board that will tell you that.

I'm not saying that you should give up on him, but perhaps a better thing to pursue might be 'how can you build a successful business without him?' - let's talk about that, as brainstorming - which means that you don't limit your ideas by what you feel might not feasible.  I'm sure you can get to a better place where you are not as reliant upon him.

You up for that, some thinking outside of the box, just for a moment?

[kft]

but perhaps a better thing to pursue might be 'how can you build a successful business without him?'

No. That is not an option I will ever consider. The business was his idea. I will close it before I cut him out of it.

[123Phoebe]

Hey kft

Wowee, sounds like there's a lot going on in your close casual acquaintances relationship.  There's never been any sex involved?  That was the clincher for me

Have you had a chance to look over the Lessons?  They're to the right--->

They're pretty helpful for navigating through a lot of the bigger situations we find ourselves in

This was after whining about his personal problems for about twenty minutes.

Is ^^ this^^ how you really feel about him?  That he was whining about his personal problems?

I guess I'm wondering how much you care about him.  Because if the vibe that we're giving off is that we don't care, no matter whether we sit there and listen to them or not, it will never bring us closer to understanding them or ourselves or allowing them the freedom to get to know us and themselves better.

What are you hoping for?  What is your goal, other than to get him into therapy?

[kft]

I'm thinking it might be time for me to stop posting to this site actually. I guess that should be my next life improvement goal.

[Want2know]

I'm thinking it might be time for me to stop posting to this site actually. I guess that should be my next life improvement goal.

I'm sorry to hear this, kft.  

but perhaps a better thing to pursue might be 'how can you build a successful business without him?'

No. That is not an option I will ever consider. The business was his idea. I will close it before I cut him out of it.

Understood.  Stating this is a good start.  You do have options.  Your choice which way to go. 

We ask the hard questions here - it can be uncomfortable.  Believe me, I've been asked some really tough questions, and at times, have had the same feeling - not wanting to post again.  I had to come to terms with my feeling vulnerable, and let that go. 

What are you hoping for?  What is your goal, other than to get him into therapy?

Phoebe asked a good question - a hard one.

The Staying board is for those who want to improve their relationships, using the Lessons we have and listening to those who are doing the work to improve their relationships.  It is your choice to take what you need and use it to your benefit.  Some people are not ready to do the work - that's ok - we do understand that.

A quote from the 'Who Should Post on this Board' thread:

"Please do not use this board as a place to complain about your partner without seeking constructive relationship advice.  We are here to find solutions.  It is a given that our partners are difficult."  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56303.0).

If you want to pursue this further, we are here for you.  In the meantime, I hope you continue to read the boards, and work towards improving your situation.  

[kft]

We ask the hard questions here - it can be uncomfortable.  Believe me, I've been asked some really tough questions, and at times, have had the same feeling - not wanting to post again.  I had to come to terms with my feeling vulnerable, and let that go.

Oh please.   I mentioned two things specifically in this thread: 1) that I often find advice here invalidating because when I explain that we are not romantic people's advice is to terminate the relationship, if I explain why I don't want to terminate then it becomes an obsession about how we're secretly in love. 2) how useful the lessons have been to me, but how difficult it is when things are good to deal with the reality that pwBPD can never be a real friend, that he has to suffer and there's really nothing I can do about that.

So I try my best to be honest and sincere and what is the response? You should leave and, oh have you read the lessons? I found hergestridge's comment very helpful, I'm sorry I didn't take the time to acknowledge it earlier. I've also in the past found coworkerfriend's advice very useful. But every time someone wants to swoop down and play guru I wonder why I even bother.

I can respect the idea that this board is not for ranting but sometimes people just really need to talk about what is going on, without fear of judgment, without guilt. There is no section in this forum specifically for that, is there? And it's an important part of the support group role.

I think it's best to stop posting because every time I do I get nothing but generic advice that doesn't fit my situation at all. And when I try to explain why it doesn't fit people act like I'm secretly in denial, which is beyond frustrating. I stated in the beginning that pwBPD's behavior does not threaten me financially or professional. Yet your advice is to do something totally unnecessary that will damage my reputation in my industry. What, do I have to post pay stubs stating I make over $7,000 a month consulting, an income that is completely independent from activities with pwBPD, for people to believe me when I say I've worked hard to make sure pwBPD's illness does not impact my health or security?

It's amazing to me how often on the STAYING board I get told to leave for no reason other than I could leave if I wanted to.

[elemental]

I have never found a site that has such gently questioning people who have a lot of experience in asking the kind of questions that are inviting posters to take time to consider and THINK within themselves. What your real feelings underlying what is troubling you and what you would like in the end and what steps you can take to change the difficult situation.

So, to be frank, you are keeping yourself and your mind and feelings in a perspective that you are clearly troubled by. There really is ambiguity in your feelings. You are happy and feel content when you are with him. Then when he is gone, you miss him and think about what is going on with him, his mean girlfriend, and you are co dependently trying to come up with ways to help him and redirect him. You state you are entirely stable and safe in your income and career... . but you are, like I said giving a lot of your headspace to this guy and how to fix him.

To what end? So he will ... . leave his damaging girlfriend?  And then... ?

We don't fix anyone else. All fixing comes from within. Here, you are being offered back to you the question of how will you examine your own self? What can you really change that will ease your mind here? What is your goal for it, what steps will you take?

Do you enjoy the ambiguity of this relationship, or are you feeling troubled enough to want to detach so YOUR clarity of mind is there and YOUR comfort level rises instead of being engaged into his situation... . which is actually none of your business. He also may be trying to stay detached from you. He has a girlfriend and he is being true to her for now. 

[123Phoebe]

are you feeling troubled enough to want to detach so YOUR clarity of mind is there and YOUR comfort level rises instead of being engaged into his situation... .

kft, I think it's important to mention (reiterate) that 'detaching' isn't the same as 'leaving' and that financial independence is much different than emotional independence-- in a relationship with a friend, family member, lover or close acquaintance.  It's deeply personal and speaks to who we are at our core; having a good relationship with ourselves.

You've told us that you feel invalidated with some of our comments and suggestions and I can hear your frustration with that.  Can you tell us what would feel validating to you?  What am I not getting?

And for the record, I'm not obsessed with the idea that the 2 of you are secretly in love.  I'm not getting that impression at all.

I do hope you stick around and work through some of this stuff.  Not from a guru standpoint , but from someone who has experienced a lot of the same emotions that you are now.

There is a way to be detached yet still involved... .

[kft]

You've told us that you feel invalidated with some of our comments and suggestions and I can hear your frustration with that.  Can you tell us what would feel validating to you?  What am I not getting?

I wasn't going to respond anymore, but this is fair question. So, okay, one more go.

What kinds of responses do I find validating? The ones that are about personal experience, you know things that your pwBPD does and things that help you cope/come to terms with it. Even if the experience doesn't match completely, it makes me feel better and helps renew my determination to do the right things.

The difference between saying "This is what happened to me and this is how I handled it... . " and saying "This is what is happening to you and this is how you should handle it" is that it the former conveys advice without making assumptions about my situation, whereas the latter implies that you know what's going on inside my head better than I do ... . particularly invalidating when so few on the board have experience dealing with relationships that are not romantic in nature.

I may be alone in this, but that's the way I feel.

[Want2know]

What kinds of responses do I find validating? The ones that are about personal experience, you know things that your pwBPD does and things that help you cope/come to terms with it. Even if the experience doesn't match completely, it makes me feel better and helps renew my determination to do the right things.

I can only speak for me... . sometimes I forget that folks don't know me, or what I've been through.  Sorry if my questions or advice came across as preachy. 

I mentioned two things specifically in this thread: 1) that I often find advice here invalidating because when I explain that we are not romantic people's advice is to terminate the relationship, if I explain why I don't want to terminate then it becomes an obsession about how we're secretly in love. 2) how useful the lessons have been to me, but how difficult it is when things are good to deal with the reality that pwBPD can never be a real friend, that he has to suffer and there's really nothing I can do about that.

I heard this, and was exploring options with you.  I did not mean to suggest you terminate the relationship or end your business with him.  And I wanted to ask about your past with him - not to suggest you are secretly in love, but to find out a bigger picture.  As you don't know me, I don't you, but want to.

I also know it's hard to watch someone you care for suffer.  I tried with my ex for 4 years, through suicide threats, major depression, verbal/physical abuse.  I know it's different, in some ways, but the underlying caring and experience is similar.

My experience with business relationships... . I have been in a few situations with those I worked with where I felt like we were friends and cared very much for them.  I wanted to see them succeed in what they wanted to, and not just for selfish business purposes - we were a team, we are friends.  When it is a person with BPD, it definitely complicates things, and it's hard to not want to help them and give advice.

What I was trying to get at is that you can't save them - you know this.  You can be a support, but there has to be boundaries.  Not just for you, but for them, too. 

What are your initial thoughts about helping him seek therapy?  Does he know what BPD or NPD is?  This is tricky territory.  I tried with my ex to explain what he was dealing with and to seek help.  It backfired big time.

Not sure if you've read these, I'm guessing you have - what do you think?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=76633.0

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

Glad you are still posting.  As with building any relationship... . it takes time to get to know one another.  It's hard on an online forum - you can't see them, hear them, and some things are filtered - it takes time to type. 

[123Phoebe]

What kinds of responses do I find validating? The ones that are about personal experience, you know things that your pwBPD does and things that help you cope/come to terms with it.

Okay, yea, those kind of responses are helpful; I totally get that.

The first order of business for me was to get out of my guy's head, what I was thinking he was thinking.  I had to come to terms with the fact that I had been doing this my entire life, starting out with my family; what are they thinking?  Cuz, what they were doing seemed a little out there, when I was too young to barely formulate a thought.  I needed them for survival.  As a kid a felt that I needed to fix my family.

Flash forward through broken romantic relationships and to my current partner... .

I had to get out of the mindset that I needed this man in my life to survive.  My interactions with him were geared towards fixing him.  I was pushing him away without even realizing it.  I was doing it for my own selfish reasons.  For emotional survival; a carry-over from childhood.  A time when I felt completely out of control.

When I stopped attaching the past to the present, I was able to gather my own strength and move it forward.

But first, I had to accept that I have my own issues that need tending to.  As an adult, I have to point the finger at myself and stop waving it at others.

If I feel uncomfortable with something someone else is doing, I have options.  And not one of them is to control what they're doing. 

I still have a fixer mentality, an idealistic view of the way things 'should' be.  I want people to be happy.  I just have to learn to keep it in check   And accept my own shortcomings as well  

That's the short version

I also want to add that your point about 'validation' is well taken.  It's something that people with BPD respond to very well, too. 

I invalidate my guy in a lot of ways.  Awareness of this helps to not do it as often.  So thanks for the reminder, kft.

Hope you're having a good day